Black swans

[andy_311]

Are these guys a world to there own or what?.They can't be Elite because GW v1.0 suppose not to have elite just vet's.
But like clockwork any convoy with Black Swans in it and I attract them like flies to sh*t.
Am in early 43 January these bastards can detect me from nearly 2800m nobody else can whats going on?

I just worked out run silent run deep (shallow approching a convoy)
gets you killed with them idiots about. I don;t know how you guys do it but if I don't find an answer soon am going to take out all escorts seems a waste of 5 or so but advice is appriciated Im also approching the convoy head on.

[Seminole]

You noticed that too huh?

Same here but I am finding them just as capable of locating me in the spring of 1940....but so far their depth charging is something less than competent. They do have a nasty habit of pranging my periscope though when I pop it up anywhere near a convoy.

[midshipsnake]

Strange...

I'm in October, 41 (15 patrols) and I've never been pinged like that before. I wish I were. For me GW escorts are no threat at all. I never got killed by them in 15 patrols. In stock, that number was like 5, 6. (I'm playing dead is not dead until May, 1945)

Damn, I wish brit dds were more deadly.

[midshipsnake]

SH3 = no challenge at all (so far)

When I played Silent Service II I had to dive deeper right after firing shots to earn more time to escape from escorts, but in SH3 I watch my shots score on peri and get away at leisure.

This is not cool. (I'm playing GW 1.0, everything on except manual
targeting)

[Keelbuster]

SH3 = no challenge at all (so far)

When I played Silent Service II I had to dive deeper right after firing shots to earn more time to escape from escorts, but in SH3 I watch my shots score on peri and get away at leisure.

This is not cool. (I'm playing GW 1.0, everything on except manual
targeting)

What year? You have to get lucky to get DCed before 42. In 43 you will be scared, and in 44 you will be killed. You will learn to fear the Black Swan. I _hate_ them. They can drop 10 DCs on you at a time. If you get attack by 2 of them, then kiss it goodbye.

Kb

[midshipsnake]

Yeah I hope so. I want them to kill me for a change.

[Threadfin]

I agree with KB. I see lots of posts about how the ASW ships suck. I just don't see it. My guess is these people

-- haven't played later in the war
-- use mods that affect the capability
-- hang out on the surface with F12 and order rudder changes to counter every move by the ASW surface ships.

I say play in '43-'45 with no externals and there's no way you can say these guys suck at ASW.

And about those Black Swans... they bring a world of hurt in a hurry. They lay out a vicious pattern of depth charges. They are the ship I fear most in SH3.

[midshipsnake]

-- haven't played later in the war

No, I haven't

-- use mods that affect the capability

GW 1.0 is the only mod I use.

-- hang out on the surface with F12 and order rudder changes to counter every move by the ASW surface ships.

Gee, I wish escorts were so deadly that I had to resort to that kinda stuff you talkin about.

I just hope they get smarter in 43-45.

[Wulfmann]

Anyone that wants their convoy attacks more scary just PM me an email address and I will send you a modded GW RND.mis file that has my escorts. Nothing less than a veteran and 2 to 3 times as many as the GW RND which is, IMO, the weak link in the mod.
They modded the rest of the RND but left the IC as they were and by now they are dated and way too easy.
I would guess 4 out of 5 that use this RND will quietly put the old safe one back and not admit it (Girly Men they would be!!).
I will also send you a Black Swan updated roster to include the early Sloop classes (BS was a sloop not a frigate) so you will see more of these sloops when they were used most, in the early years.
Sloops are slower, wider and less armed than DDs (Except for A/S weapons) but have better habitability for long convoy escorting as they carry enough fuel for the whole trip where as corvettes and DDs had to leave and refuel. Because they also have DC throwers they have 3 times the DC pattern when they come after you in latter years than the DDs. This will also be true of the US Lend Lease DE and the River class DE (The River is wrongly named as the model is a C Class type that was modified for convoy escorting) come into the game with their DC throwers.
I can not beat my RND file, it is too hard. But, it forces me to do things real Kaleuns had to do like attack from outside and hope for a hit that disables something use a homi fish to hit the close DD and hope to get away before 2 or 3 others get my scent then if I survive find the disabled merchant and get a kill.

The present career started off with me sinking a US DD as I was mauled. I was saved by the Homing fish but limped back to France with a 3.9 hull integrity. I have 69K tons in 5 patrols and have made it out of France to Bergen for only the second time in over 20 careers (although this had one less mission because my repairs took so long from the 3.96 thingy)
You will not survive long with typical sneak into the convoy tactics using this RND. There are simply too many escorts (although way less than real life).
This is the GW RND.mis file except the convoys have more escorts (and an occasional cruiser and escort carrier).
It is not available as a download.

Wulfmann

[Keelbuster]

That sounds like total hell. I have enough trouble as it is. However, I have to say it's kinda tempting, in a sick sorta way.

Kb

[TAW_CZAREJS]

I have to say that with GW 1.1 ASW is not good. I'm on patrol #16 and I've only had one close shave, never ever came close to 16 patrols in the stock or selectively modified setup. Currently I'm cruising along inside a convoy firing eels left and right, the escorts are nowhere near me and seem to be depth charging something well away from me. I've hardly seen any aircraft either. April of 1944 and I keep thinking it should be harder than this.

[Seminole]

I have to say that with GW 1.1 ASW is not good. I'm on patrol #16 and I've only had one close shave, never ever came close to 16 patrols in the stock or selectively modified setup. Currently I'm cruising along inside a convoy firing eels left and right, the escorts are nowhere near me and seem to be depth charging something well away from me. I've hardly seen any aircraft either. April of 1944 and I keep thinking it should be harder than this.


That is amazing....I'm using GW 1.1/NYGM/UC and my results are just 180 degrees from that. Raise the scope inside a convoy and the merchants start banging away with their deck guns..lucky to get a snap shot off before it is destroyed....and every escort is homing in like they were tied to me with strings.

I consider myself lucky if I get within 1500 meters of a convoy by running silent....ahead slow...at below 100 meters....then rush to periscope depth and get off a salvo shot before I crash back down and spend the next hour dodging DC attacks. And it is only summer '41.

I'm finding it nearly impossible to do an end run around a convoy then lie in wait for it to approach so i can sneak inside the screen. The escorts even in early war pick my boat up on ASDIC from 1000's of meters away.

All of that isn't even mentioning their ramming skills :nope:

Only in heavy fog can I cruise on the surface inside a convoy, hoping for a snap shot as a target comes out of the fog bank, and even then it is a mighty dodgy thing. You never know when an escort will appear and start firing at point blank range.

[Wulfmann]

Remember, if you use TC above 256 the radar aircraft will not see you, it is a bug. In 1943 you should dive at least every other patrol grid or more from AC or you are cheating reality.

Sem. go to 13 meters when you dive instead of the default 12 for periscope depth. Keep you peri so low it is under the water more than on top. They will not see you this way.
After 1941 radar prevents you from being on the surface no matter what the weather.

BTW, my RND is tweaked to reflect what I have read on this subject not just a sick desire for toture although sometimes I wonder!! It can be frustrating but when I read Iron Coffins for reference, what I have mimics that more, IMO.
I may not survive many patrols but when I escape 3 or 4 escorts after a 4 hour pounding I am more satisfied than running up and unrealistic score!

I attacked an Arctic convoy tonight in Oct 1944 out of Bergen. It was raining with fog. I heard a wierd motor and suspected it was an escort carrier so went away from the convoy and fired a spread of 4 fish from hydrophone bearings. All missed. I turned and fired a homi at her and disabled her. I waited until the convoy disappeared and finished off the Bogue class and finished my first ever patrol out of Bergen with a U-Boat that escaped France after D-Day. I also ignored my grid orders or I would likely be starting over tommorrow! Patrol 6 tommorrow. I am nervous!

Wulfmann

[Keelbuster]

Remember, if you use TC above 256 the radar aircraft will not see you, it is a bug.

I attacked an Arctic convoy tonight in Oct 1944 out of Bergen.


Interesting - didn't know about the 256x aircraft radar bug - good to know for those cases when you _need_ air and can't travel at PD anymore.

Also - I've never encountered an Arctic convoy - i really want to. I've been based at bergen, and my patrol orders have never taken me north, but rather out to the atlantic. What grid co-ordinates do you hunt for arctic convoys?

KB

[Wulfmann]

KB, I lurk north of the patrol grid areas where the convoy routes converge on the map. I just hang around there until one shows up.
Last night I had three all in different directions. I attacked the carrier which was out side the convoy and disabled her and waited for the escorts to leave, finished her off and went after a convoy north of the other and sank a liberty from out side and disabled another large merchant which I hid under until all the escorts departed, about 2 hours.
One carrier and two large merchants and still alive is better than an obituary and a couple more ships.
Shooting farther out is asking for some luck but good procedure improves your luck.
By firing at a distance and moving laterally the escorts will be looking where you are not and at this stage finding you makes your chances slim with all these A/S ships
My assigned patrol was CG so I ignored it.
We must remember our changing bases does not change our grid options and that is an unrealistic order both for range and what would have been a real deployment for that time.
Lose renown and go north.
In fact if you head way up east of Bear Island you can move outside aircraft range and just hang out until something shows.
Later in the war I believe I should protect my crew and do max damage without being stupid.


Wulfmann

[Keelbuster]

KB, I lurk north of the patrol grid areas where the convoy routes converge on the map. I just hang around there until one shows up.
Wulfmann

Wulf, interesting - no grid area - I'm thinking like straight N from Narvik? Basically, the grid north of AF? I'll have to go up there any hang around a bit. Those convoys sound juicy (i.e. carriers, liberty, etc). It's just turned '42 in my current career. I'll probably transfer to Bergen late in the year, or ealry '43. I also agree that saving the crew is totally important - especially in that interval before the schnorkel arrives.

Kb

[Wulfmann]

I was referring to north of Scotland outside the grid area where the two different convoy routes converge. North of AF 18-19 (I think from memory)
I missed a convoy as I arrived there tonight and waited for weeks, literally, until another came. This also had an escort carrier which I set a trap for then turned quickly and fired into the convoy. A DE was moving on me from the far outside which allowed me to isolate him for a Homing fish and I very luckly disabled him and not sink him. I only sank one cargo and the Bogue and with the other escorts pissed off I made a fast line to hide near the disabled DE. I almost made it before getting hit hard by one can which dropped me to 66 and serious flooding but before they could line me up for the kill I got next to the DE and waited for about 3 hours while they eventually left. I moved off, sank my protector and headed for Bergen and repairs. This means I am now ready to sail on patrol 7 in Jan 1945. That means better fish as well!
I am hoping to finsih the war but that may be 2 or 3 patrols and the allies get another boost so I must be more carefull than aggresive.
No problem as The Admiral is likely packing to get away from the Russians and will not notice too much!

Wulfmann

[Salvadoreno]

Dude i am having mad trouble with NYGM Mod in the meditereanean right now. Its 1943 and i tried to attack a small convoy at night, 1 flower corvetter and 1 small merchant. I had to run all over the place to avoid the flower who kept sensing me around with radar, luckily i am faster than a flower corvette and ran around for about an hour until i got a shot in on that small merchant. With the merchant disabled i ran away for about an hour and came back to see the flower gone and i finished him off with my deck gun.

But the real doozie was when i fired a full salvo at a passagner liner in a medium convoy escorted by 3 destroyers. 2 of them went after me after i sent that passagner liner to the bottom when ALL 4 hit :rock: :rock: but i paid for it for about 2 hours of cat and mouse. While the depth charges didnt cause any damage, they shook me up a bit and scared me quite often. I dove deep and silent and they still found me, but finally gave up after about 2 hours. 1 escort stayed but he couldnt locate my sub at 230m. But my second attack on that convoy was foiled quickly at like 4000m when the v&w turned around an raced toward my sub. Then another 30 minutes followed until i got away and continued on my patrol. So far 1st patrol Feb 1943 20,000grt + sunk in med, that is an extremely good patrol and i doubt they will get better. Planes have been hounding me west of Israel like crazy and im still very far away from home.

I dont know how ppl can say "oo its so easy" its annoying, i thought the same way until i played later in the war, then i realized i was a big fish in a very small pond. With lots of sharks and eagles wandering around my small pond.

Wulfman id like to try your RND. Sounds a bit unrealistic tho, but i think im misunderstanding. Is it more difficult in the beginning of the war too when it shouldnt be to hard? I understand if its nearly impossible late in the war because, it was.. PM me or something

[Wulfmann]

My RND is more realistic in the sense of historical comparison. Early is still much easier but not the impossible to be killed idea that persist.
My RND is only modded with the convoys. the entire rest is GW. They actually redid the rest of the RND but did not update the IC in their RND and that is the only part I modded.
I added the more likely escorts and in more likely numbers. But, in real life 1944 convoys could have 20 escorts so I hardly went that far and even the best escorted convoys will not have more than 10 (all veteran)
The early convoys will have sloops (frigates in SH3 and trawlers (trawlers are 4 rated elite but have no asdic). In real life U-Boats were sunk by convoy escorts but in 1943 they became hounded and hunted. From 1943 on the convoys have mostly DEs which is real. (Hunt class are really DEs and unfortunately they are not in SH3 as they should be a main escort)
You can still easily attacked convoys early with this RND but only if you act correctly, stroll in and don't pay close attention and you will die in 1939.
That is more realistic.
I am reading Iron Coffins for the third time in 4 months so I can keep comparing my game experinces with Herr Werner.
In 1939 and 1940 U-Boats were lost at a rate on one every two weeks. In 1941 they lost 3 per month and in 1942 they lost 8 per month or almost 2 each week. It was much worse later but in SH3 there is not the real danger early that was possible when attacking a convoy. I believe I address this.
PM a email address if you want to try it but expect convoy attacks to be much more dangerous.
Wulfmann

[Salvadoreno]

Wulfmann, Iron Coffins isnt exactlly a historically accurate piece of reading material. Herr Werner exagerrated and even made up a lot of things. Look up the history of Ottokar Paulsen and the other Uboats he was apart of. Half of the attacks he describes did not happen. He never sunk a confirmed ship (or so history tells) etc. But i WOULD like to try out your campaign RND since it seems like u got convoy escorts right. Im annoyed when early in the war i see these uber DDs escorting convoys when the damn DDs havent even been comissioned yet! But nowadays i play NYGM and the Mediteranean so i dunno how ur RND will merge with NYGM since its from GW. You should try NYGM tho, its definately a bit harder and i have had some exciting moments trying to escape Destroyers

[Ducimus]

SH3 = no challenge at all (so far)

When I played Silent Service II I had to dive deeper right after firing shots to earn more time to escape from escorts, but in SH3 I watch my shots score on peri and get away at leisure.

This is not cool. (I'm playing GW 1.0, everything on except manual
targeting)

Start a career in 43.

42 it starts getting a little tougher. by 43 it can get pretty tough sometimes.

Theres a reason why i dont start any career before 42. SH3 before '42 or '43, is nothing more then a interactive screensaver .

[andy_311]

From 43 onwards it's sheer hell just to get back home is a challenge. And 44 and 45 Just start praying.

[Keelbuster]

I almost made it before getting hit hard by one can which dropped me to 66 and serious flooding but before they could line me up for the kill I got next to the DE and waited for about 3 hours while they eventually left. I moved off, sank my protector and headed for Bergen and repairs.
Wulfmann

Sounds intense! I hope you survive the war!

Kb

[Wulfmann]

Werner never made any claim of a confirmed kill as Kaleun of his own boat.
I am referring to how he makes it sound in the boat and the intensity of the interaction with the escorts. That is where I am trying to get a similar feel. We sink ships far easier than they did particularly in 1943-45 after May 43 when getting home alive with nothing sunk was a victory.

Still, there are still too many things that do not work right no matter what. The escorts lock on too easy and can't lose you in thermal layers or if you go deep while you desend the cans go off at what ever depth you are at when they can not always guess right but do. Without other boats in a pack the escorts can leave the convoy unprotected and all come for you and never let up. tec.
We know all that so this is trying to curve the difficulty to be challenging without being impossible and as it goes later force you to change tactics to survive (like launching from outside the convot with FATs and not expecting a bunch of kills every time you fire.

I did find something I want to change in my RND. I have made the warships like cruisers and escort carriers "escort true" instead of "false" which puts them outside the convoy. SH3 has an order to where these are placed and they are always in the left front of the convoy with no A/S vessel so become prime easy kills even late. I have sunk 2 cruisers and 2 escort carriers this career and that will not be repeated.
What would be a big ralism jump would be to make hunter killer groups that follow the convoys so the carrier is well protected and any cruiser as well. That would mean a new group on the same route and speed as the convoy but about 10 miles a stern matching its turns. In the war they kept one in between convoys so they could move where needed but ours would have to be prearranged to one to work.
Still I am playing conservative hoping to end the war with this career. Then I will redo it the convoys so there are no easy warship kills and try again.

Wulfmann

[Salvadoreno]

In Werners book he does mention he slammed a torp into a ship near ireland i believe. But yes escorts should be farther from the convoys, and convoys should be more spread out like in real life. This is all totally possible with a work with IC, but who knows. Sometimes i do see warships get pretty far away from convoys when they do their screenings which is awesome and gives me a chance to run in. I'd still like to try your RND layer tho wulfman, perhaps since you know the RND layer pretty well you could add something to IC by adding certain task forces following convoys like Artic convoys and wut not. But i have read a lot of accounts 1939-1941 of submarines getting away from escorts when they were detected, especially in bad weather going against the waves. That' d be nice too, but we cant have everything we want.

[McBeck]

SH3 = no challenge at all (so far)

When I played Silent Service II I had to dive deeper right after firing shots to earn more time to escape from escorts, but in SH3 I watch my shots score on peri and get away at leisure.

This is not cool. (I'm playing GW 1.0, everything on except manual
targeting)
Maybe it has something to do with the different capabilities of the English and Japaneese navy?

The german subs had it easy the first couple of years - thats a fact, so I dont think its unrealistic for you to be able to get easy kills.
Just wait till later in the war!

[Wulfmann]

The U-Boats did not have it easy early. They were well trained and used their Boats very effectively. That is why they succeeded, not because it was easy.

It should be easy for you if you act properly but you should be sunk when you do not.
Many U-Boats were sunk in the "easy" time but in later times it was a nightmare.

There are ceratinly things we can not do because of the games limitations. We are still seen too easily at night on the surface. We should be better able to hide in rough water from asdic at peri depth. we should be able to dive below the DCes. DCes should not always be going off at the depth we happen to be at even if we change while they are decending. The snorkle should not make us as visible as we are when we are surfaced (what is the point to snorkle?) There are many little things not right so we continue to labor and pick away as best we can to make a better closer to real experience.

Those that have my RND file know as I do. the sound of the asdic cuts you like a knife because with this RND it often means death and you know you must zig and not zag and must know where the excorts are, where they are going and when they drop their cans you know you must be somewhere else and you know you can not make any serious mistake or you will be starting over (for us 100% guys that play once dead, dead!)

But, after 10 days in a career where I am aggresive but careful and I do make that mistake I trully wonder if I have made it just a little too hard.
I have played with my super escort numbers for about a year, almost every day.
I have yet to finsih one career!

Wulfmann

[TheSamuraiJedi]

Nightmare situation, and yes, this happened to me.

August of 1944

Was attacked by 2 Fletcher DD's and 2 Black Swans.

I played hide and seek with them for an hour, before I got DC'ed by both Black Swans at the same time. No flooding, no nothing, just an instant "Man down on the deck!" "Hull Damaged!" and then the death screen.

My guess? 20 DC"s going off 20 feet from my hull turned my hull into an egg against the wall.

[Palladius]

DCes should not always be going off at the depth we happen to be at even if we change while they are decending

Was this the case in SH2? It's been a while, but I seem to recall this being one of my major tactics (if you can give such a flattering term to my meanderings!) i.e. As soon as I heard them coming I'd try to race the depth charges to my crush depth, so they'd detonate where I was, hopefully a long way above where I am. Seemed to work, but my memory is very faulty.[/quote]

[Salvadoreno]

so wulfman you going to let me use ur RND layer? I wanna try it out.

[Wulfmann]

so wulfman you going to let me use ur RND layer? I wanna try it out.

PM an email add and I will send it to you.

Wulfmann

[andy_311]

so wulfman you going to let me use ur RND layer? I wanna try it out.

PM an email add and I will send it to you.

Wulfmann

I would also like to try it please.

[The Noob]

SH3 = no challenge at all (so far)


Try the Following:

1.Go to Data\Cfg
2.Open "Sim.cfg" in notepad.
3.Set the "Sonar Detection time" to something from 15-5.
4.Set the "Hydrophone Noise factor" to 0.3
5.Save the Changes.

Finish!

Now you got you're "Expert Destroyers".

[Wulfmann]

so wulfman you going to let me use ur RND layer? I wanna try it out.

PM an email add and I will send it to you.

Wulfmann

I would also like to try it please.

That goes for anyone. I am not uploading any mods but will send them to a few here. Trust me, this is not for those that are easily frustrated.

Wulfmann

[Salvadoreno]

did you try to send them wulfman??

[Wulfmann]

I sent them to everyone that PMed me an email. I will resend it today.

Now I must confess. The ones I sent are not the toughest one. When I did this before months ago for RUB installs the only people that reported back said it was more real and they now see they did not want realism as much as they thought!! :rotfl:

I must also confess the 1944 career I just completed was also not the tough one, I wussed out! :oops:

Because I had failed so many times I had to lighten it up a little to be sure I could do it with something harder than the GW one but not as hard as what I know is right.
Convoys in 1943-45 did not have gaps to waltz in to. Sneaking in to a convoy in the last two years was virtual suicide yet we do it all the time.
So, I put my tough RND in and spent yesterday redoing a whole section of that super-GW RND.
What I did was remake all the English traffic.
I am sure you all know the multi-ship groups you run into on occasion. Well, what I did was make them into small convoys with 3-5 merchants and 2-4 escorts. !943-45 only. Local traffic was well protected by all books I have read and did not meander around alone. .
So, I started my first patrol and ran into the only 2 ships I did not modify. I then did a brilliant job of timing the sweeps of the escorts to a large convoy and snuck in. I hit a big tanker and a liberty but did it with long shots 2 and 3 columns form my position and I turned 90% long before they hit.
3 escorts converged on where I was.
I was so proud! They found nothing.
But, there were 5 DEs 1 Frigate and 2 corvettes. No matter I was sure I had out maneuvered them as well. I was almost out side the screen to the rear. I was so sure I switched to the map and hit TC.
It stopped at 8X.
I was being pinged. That one closest DE made a 90 and was heading for me. I have a T5 in the stern tube and he would feel it! I would survive this one alert tin can. I fired, the fish was running true and was on his course (I love listening to the merging noises in the hydro!).
I went back to peri to witness his demise and sure enough he was hit.
But, I noticed another DE in his wake coming hard. I turned a 360 peri view and the frigate was pouring on the smoke as was a corvette.
Alarm!!!!
I set for 240 meters. So far (2 hours) I have been a half step away from their accurate drops and I doubt I will survive as a fourth escort has joined the group.
I had planned an early day at the gun club this morn so saved this for later today.

I really can see why most would rather not do this.
Escaping is nearly impossible and once you have you feel like you may need counseling after ward and you must force your mouse onto to SHIII icon to open the game the next time.
Then when you hear the ping again you feel like some one stabbed you each time. You sweat, you get the feeling you are actually in the boat and god forbid you must go to the bathroom.
Putting it on hold can be a disaster as you must know where each escort is so you can plan your next turn. The slightest mistake could mean you turn into the exploding cans instead of away.
When the convoys has at least 2 escorts on each side and at the rear you can not use that homi to open a gap, shoot and flee.
In truth, I know this and had actually planned to be outside the screen and fire 4 fanned fish and hoped for a hit or two. But, as I set up the convoy for this I peried up and found it had turned and was rolling over me. I luckily had not been found by the lead escort but that may only have prevented the inevitable.

The real truth is, I prefer this impossible scene to the successful career. The challenge is riveting, intense, hard to breath OMG I am going to die almost for real!
But, only because this is a virtual U-Boat. In real life I would have happily spent 1939-41 at sea and the rest of the war training dead men diving in the Baltic.

Wulfmann