A growing handicap: Muslims serving in Western armies

[Skybird]

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1045 (the original holds some links in the text that are not visible in this quoted text below)

Dutch Worry About Radical Muslims in the Military
From the desk of Paul Belien on Tue, 2006-05-02 12:05

The Dutch secret services AIVD (state intelligence) and MIVD (military intelligence) are investigating an unknown number of Muslims within the Dutch army. Last Saturday, the Dutch newspaper Het Parool reported that a growing number of Dutch soldiers sympathizes with radical Islamists. The paper refers to the annual report of the MIVD, which states that it conducted a number of investigations into “alleged radicalisation of military personnel” as “there are signs that indicate a possible radicalisation of Muslim individuals or groups within the armed forces.”

During the past years the Dutch army, in order to contradict allegations of discrimination, has applied a policy of preferential recruitment among immigrant youths. The MIVD warns, however, that youths between 17 and 25 are more easily influenced by radical Islam, while the experience of Dutch troops in Afghanistan and Iraq can also lead to an enhanced radicalisation.

At least ten to twenty groups of Muslim terrorists are said to be active in the Netherlands, planning assassinations of politicians and the bombing of the AIVD headquarters.

General Bert Dedden, the retiring MIVD chief, said today in the newspaper De Stem that the Ministry of Defense has started procedures to oust a radical Islamist from the army. According to Dedden about ten Dutch soldiers are known to adhere to Salafism, Wahabism or other forms of extremist Islam. These people can be a danger to Dutch national security, the general explained, because they can persuade others to become disloyal to the army or because they have access to protected buildings or grounds. “We try to prevent the disappearance of sensitive information, weapons or other material,” General Dedden said.

Other European countries also have growing numbers of Muslims soldiers. Last March three conscripts of the Austrian army refused to salute the Austrian flag because they said this was incompatible with their Islamic religion. It is said that one of the reasons why the French authorities did not employ the army during the November 2005 riots, despite calls to do so, was because 15% of the French armed forces are made up of Muslims. Last month a Swiss website reported that some are concerned about the rising number of Muslim soldiers in the Swiss army. The number of Muslim citizens in Switzerland has grown from 16,000 to 310,000 during the past four decades.



http://agora.blogsome.com/2006/03/20/in-austria-moslem-conscripts-dont-salute-the-flag-do-their-job

March 20, 2006
In Austria Moslem conscripts don’t Salute the Flag, do their Job
Filed under: Politics (EU), Translation, Islamo-Fascists
This story from March 18th in “Die Presse” of Austria states in summary that 3 Moslem members of the Marie Therese garrison demonstratively refused to salute the flag at a parade. They instead turned their backs on the flag, standing at attention. They stated that saluting the Austrian flag was not compatible with their faith.

Austrian Army officers have complained that Moslem soldiers are incompetent, making them skilled to do only the most rudimentary jobs. If they get a certificate from the Austrian Moslem Faith Community stating that they are observant Moslems, they are allowed to pray 5 times a day, no matter the job they are performing at the time. Some who go for Friday’s Prayers stay away the rest of the day. The only punishment they receive for this is more frequent watches during the weekend. Some of the Moslem soldiers eat pork, drink alcohol and some even do drugs, raising suspicions among officers that the certificate is used mainly for shirking their duties and that the certificates are too easy to get.

At the Maria Theresa garrison where most Austrian Moslems serve, Moslems have their own prayer room, a shorter term of service and there many of the problems of the Austrian Army with Moslem conscripts first appear.

The 3 Moslem conscripts who refused to salute the flag were not disciplined, instead an Imam was summoned who issued a fatwa saying that it is allowed for Moslems to salute the Austrian flag. In response to the criticisms of Moslems in the army he says that there will alway be a few black sheep, but that their certificates are withdrawn if they are outed.

The Austrian defense minister, in response to this, has decided that the Austrian army from now on will have Field-Chaplins of the Moslem faith to mediate future conflicts. 3.5% of the Austrian armed forces are Moslems, putting the total somewhere around 1.000 Moslems.

The FPÖ’s spokesman, General Secretary Harald Vilimsky says that “There are signs in the garrisons of an integration that has not taken place.”



-----

[TteFAboB]

You have to be kidding me.

When Heinrich Himmler said Islam was the best religion for a soldier, he was kidding!!!

He wasn't supposed to be taken seriously!

Dear Allah! :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

[Happy Times]

In Finland muslim concripts are allowed prayers during middle of excercises :roll: Most of them serve in the Guards Jäger Regiment in Helsinki, the regiment specialises in urban fighting, CQC and counter terrorism training :doh:

[Wildcat]

I wonder when some country is just going to institute a no-muslims-in-military policy. Totally prejudiced of course, but then they'll never have the problem of loads of psychotic muslim terrorists filling their ranks.

[Skybird]

I wonder when some country is just going to institute a no-muslims-in-military policy. Totally prejudiced of course, but then they'll never have the problem of loads of psychotic muslim terrorists filling their ranks.

then Americans maybe must be spared from military service as well...

http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/7978035/detail.html

The Ottomans took children from Christian families, turned them into slave-soldiers and made them converts to Islam. That way they fought against their Christian heritage. A very special perfidy, imo.

Not that we should do something like that. But if they live "integrated" and "assimilated" in our society, they have the same duties and obligations. And they should be forced to live up to them, and if they don't they should be sent to prison until they do, or expelled to some Musalim country. This would solve at least the discipline and cultural disrespect issue. It does, of course, not solve the problem of lower reliability of Muslim troop contingents.

I red a report from gulf '91, validated by two independent authors who were in the US army back then. They reported about attempts by American instructors to train Saudi and/or exile-Kuwaiti infantry, and when it came to digging fox-holes, each soldier his own, they refused to obey, saying that it would be too disgraceful to demand them to dig holes in the ground. Instead they took out their handies and tried to call in some Indonesian or Pakistani guestworkers to dig the holes for them.

Unfortunately I do not know if this was accepted by their instructors. I can't imagine it (if I would have had a word in it, they would be off for latrine service for the rest of the war, or in prison). In reality, the cooperation probably came to a sudden end?

[Konovalov]

Time for a little balance here since Skybird won't provide any.

I remember a recently retired CIA guy on Fox News (USA) a few months ago applauding the work done by American Muslims who work at the CIA in combating Al Qaeda. And this ex CIA guy wasn't a guy with left leaning views. In fact quite the opposite. He supports torture of terrorists for information and thought water-boarding (simulated drowning) is par for the course.

This young man (http://www.amirkhan-boxing.com/)represented Britain at the Athens Olympic games and won a brilliant Silver Medal. This guy doesn't appear to have a loyalty crisis between his faith and his country waving the Union Jack around.

And of course thousands of Muslims served in Allied/Commonwealth forces (British, Indian ect), to fight back the tide firstly of Imperialist Germany in WW1 and then again Nazi Germany in WW2. Like my grandfather and great uncles (Australian), who served in WW2 and travelled to far lands to fight against the German Nazi, Muslims of Indian and other varied nationalities such as French fought loyally for their country.

I know of a Masjid (Mosque) here in the UK, Surrey I think, which was the first Mosque that I know of which was built in this country at the end of the 19th or early 20th century. It was constructed and financed by a group of wealthy Indians. Not far from this Mosque is a WW1 war cemetery which is the resting place for many Muslim soldiers who fought for this country. Sadly they were vandalised at one stage similarly to those that were vandalised in France as highlighted in this article:

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1547841,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/8AE47532-593F-4D2E-8E7F-6BE81359E24C/41076/8D9E5421641D47D286FDE86B72774A8D.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40310000/jpg/_40310825_cemetery_afp203.jpg

[Skybird]

Did they ever fight against Muslim enemies?

Your defense stands or falls with the answer to the question if the French really felt so unpleasant about the 15% of French forces recruited by Muslims and considered them to be so unreliable or critical that they decided it would be wise not to send them for help of french Citizens, into an environment where they would need to engage Muslim immigrants.

[Konovalov]

Did they ever fight against Muslim enemies?

Your defense stands or falls with the answer to the question if the French really felt so unpleasant about the 15% of French forces recruited by Muslims and considered them to be so unreliable or critical that they decided it would be wise not to send them for help of french Citizens, into an environment where they would need to engage Muslim immigrants.

Are you asking do muslims fight muslims? If so then that is an obvious yes as evidenced thru history and the fact US muslim citizens work for the CIA against Al Qaeda.

As for Muslim soldiers who fought in WW1 and WW2 for the Commonwealth and France they simply did their duty and served their representitive countries. Seems to me like you are going off rack here for some strange reason.

[Skybird]

No, I indirectly asked if Muslims in Western armies TODAY would fight against Muslims violating the constitutional order of the state, if the fall of these would be to the advanatge of Islam. It's the same question about trustworthiness and competence that had been asked during the civil war, with regard to black soldiers and the role of black people in america. The difference is that different to Islam, the Blacks did not have a written agenda that called them to overthrow America and errect their own cultural system from their African homes in it's place.

The French obviously do not share your optimism. The Dutch voice security concerns with regard to the radicalisation of vets returning from Afghanistan, and Muslims hving access to sensible areas while maybe trying to infiltrate vital security structures. The Swiss starts to feel nervous, too, it seems. In early 2003 I talked with a batallion commander of the German Bundeswehr who clearly said he does not want Muslims from not fully integrated family backgrounds serving in the armed forces, intel, or police, and although not mentioning specifics he indicated that he must have had some bad experiences in his unit in the past. He also said that it were completely unacceptabel that they were allowed special rules when being in service.

Ouch, and before I forget, sometimes during the last winter, I think after x-mas, there was the first report on TV that the German Bundesverfassungsschutz is warning of attempts to infiltrate the german intelligence agencies and police with Islamic agents. Of course, politicians called their watchdogs back immediately. One day of sharp balking, then it was not discussed in public after that.

I did not ask if Muslims fight Muslims in war in general, and with good reason I do not ask. Historically, Islam has waged more wars against factions of it's own ideological side than any other religion. And historically it has waged more wars against factions of different culture and religion than any other culture. And no other "founder" of a world religion has orderd and wages so many wars like muhammad himself (far veyond 60, some even list up to 80).

Reasons enough to ask about the presence of Islam in our most vital security structures.

[joea]

I guess some here would like the Spanish solution.

[Skybird]

The reconquista? Or today's Spanish socialists, who in an attempt to brake the power of catholic church import Islam to erode the fundament of the church ?

[TLAM Strike]

Sheesh what ever happened to " I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic"? :roll:

:damn: If a Muslim in the US Military didn’t salute the flag he should be thrown in the brig for violating regulations. And I could only hope he would do it at a NASCAR event so he could be savagely beaten by rednecks.

[Konovalov]

Sheesh what ever happened to " I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic"? :roll:

:damn: If a Muslim in the US Military didn’t salute the flag he should be thrown in the brig for violating regulations. And I could only hope he would do it at a NASCAR event so he could be savagely beaten by rednecks.

I'm sure this patriot, (http://www.bootsontheground.org/?p=20) as all who serve their country will agree.

[joea]

The reconquista? Or today's Spanish socialists, who in an attempt to brake the power of catholic church import Islam to erode the fundament of the church ?

Funny for a skeptic like you to defend the Catholic Church, no I meant the reconquista and what was done with the Jews of Spain, 1/3 converted, 1/3 expulsed 1/3 killed. Ok so maybe not in those proportions but I honestly feel the attitudes and discourse here seems to be leading to that as the only solution, above and beyond what would be "normal" and within sovereign states *resists snide remark about eroding sovereignty* rights to restrict or stop immigration.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Pretty sure of the 120,000+ US troops in Iraq, there are some Muslims.

PD

[Skybird]

The reconquista? Or today's Spanish socialists, who in an attempt to brake the power of catholic church import Islam to erode the fundament of the church ?

Funny for a skeptic like you to defend the Catholic Church, no I meant the reconquista and what was done with the Jews of Spain, 1/3 converted, 1/3 expulsed 1/3 killed. Ok so maybe not in those proportions but I honestly feel the attitudes and discourse here seems to be leading to that as the only solution, above and beyond what would be "normal" and within sovereign states *resists snide remark about eroding sovereignty* rights to restrict or stop immigration.

I do not defend the church, I have nothing to do with it, but I must accept that today'S Europe wouldn't have been possible without it, and has been massively, most importantly been inlfuenced by it, for the worse and for the good as well. It also is the last remaining institution defending a last set of principle values in an opportunistic world that more and more declares that everything is equal, is relative, and accepts no rules and principles at all - this sick interpretation of total, unlimited freedom and tolerance, no matter what the cost for the others will be. The chruch today is not as bad as it has been in previous times of history, and a basic system giving most basic rules and orientation is better than nothing, even if I do not agree with all these principles in general.

The quotas of 1/3 :1/3 : 1/3 you give are a bit rough maybe, but not completely wrong. They are often summed up like this in literature, I think.

So much for the wonderful time of the Cordoba era. without christians and Jews who ran the show and payed for it with their penalty taxes, it would have been a very poor performance on stage.

We could have had a renaissance and an enlightenment even withourt being object to Muslim conquest and repression. Why so many Europeans say thanks! today for the Muslim invasion back then I do not understand. Lacking knowledge, I assume.

[Wildcat]

Pretty sure of the 120,000+ US troops in Iraq, there are some Muslims.

PD

And fortunately they are forced to conform to the MILITARY standards, and not the PC crap that muslims are forcing upon european nations, in particular, which IMO is just one of the reasons so many muslims are terrorists (or vice versa, if you prefer). They just must have their way, and by golly if they can't, they're going to kill some innocent children to make you pay for it.

[joea]

...
The quotas of 1/3 :1/3 : 1/3 you give are a bit rough maybe, but not completely wrong. They are often summed up like this in literature, I think.

So much for the wonderful time of the Cordoba era. without christians and Jews who ran the show and payed for it with their penalty taxes, it would have been a very poor performance on stage.

We could have had a renaissance and an enlightenment even withourt being object to Muslim conquest and repression. Why so many Europeans say thanks! today for the Muslim invasion back then I do not understand. Lacking knowledge, I assume.

Alright, now I understand your view on the church…and share it to an extent but I think though rather than use Islam to weaken the Catholic church better to make clear a separation of public political life from private belief and treat all religions equally in that regard.

I see you completely misunderstood my point about the 1/3 proportions. I was referring to the Christian monarchs policy after the reconquista towards the Jews. I feel this is what may happen to the Muslims in Europe already here…including the killing and expulsion and I find the prospect horrifying. That would mean the end of democracy as surely as a postulated "Eurabia" under sharia law. It really seems that's what some want, not only stopping immigration.

[Beery]

But if they live "integrated" and "assimilated" in our society, they have the same duties and obligations.

As far as I'm aware - and I'm a foreign immigrant living in the US, so I should know - there are no duties or obligations that I have, other than to obey the laws of the US. I am certainly not required to take any oath of loyalty to the US, nor would I take such an oath. But then again, no US citizen is required to take such an oath either.

As for military service, you make it sound like it's compulsory in the US. Last time I checked, the US had an all-volunteer military. No one is forced to join the military, therefore Americans ARE spared from military service, since no one ever has to join up.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

soooo many people see the booogy man hiding in every corner of their minds... on all sides of the issue...

i find some of these comments shocking...


--Mike