Sonar

[robj250]

I have a VIIB at the moment. I have tried using the "Sound Trainer" to learn how to use it. Does anyone know if it is possible to use sonar and the hydrophones in the same manner on a VIIB to take out merchants while the sub is submerged with periscope down or below periscope range? Robert

[BigBadVuk]

It doesnt work...u cant do that it is a bug....check other treads about it for details

[robj250]

It doesnt work...u cant do that it is a bug....check other treads about it for details

Hi: Why does SH3 provide a sound trainer then if you can't do anything like that in the game, seem illogical.

[greyrider]

robj250

yes you can use it to take out merchants with scope down, target unobserved.

the sound trainer, was all based on an early u s navy theory during wwII. ubi didnt use a real propeller pitch model,

but it was the first to vary the rpm's of the ships. seeing that that was a start, i wanted to let ubi
know that we knew about propeller pitch, so that they would improve on it in the next version of sh.

because pitch was not modelled, every speed was listened too, and the rpm counted, for every merchant
and british asw warship.

rmembering that "THIS IS A GAME", you can imagine that you know propeller pitch, ubi will do alot better in the next round of silenthunter, im sure.


robej, you must also remember that there are alot of players here that are more interested in gramaphone songs, than submarine tactics,
but to me, tactics is where its at.

bigbadvu wrote:
It doesnt work...u cant do that it is a bug....check other treads about it for details



BigBadVu, since you made the claim, would you mind showing us your proof sir?

[robj250]

robj250

yes you can use it to take out merchants with scope down, target unobserved.

the sound trainer, was all based on an early u s navy theory during wwII. ubi didnt use a real propeller pitch model,

but it was the first to vary the rpm's of the ships. seeing that that was a start, i wanted to let ubi
know that we knew about propeller pitch, so that they would improve on it in the next version of sh.

because pitch was not modelled, every speed was listened too, and the rpm counted, for every merchant
and british asw warship.

rmembering that "THIS IS A GAME", you can imagine that you know propeller pitch, ubi will do alot better in the next round of silenthunter, im sure.


robej, you must also remember that there are alot of players here that are more interested in gramaphone songs, than submarine tactics,
but to me, tactics is where its at.

bigbadvu wrote:
It doesnt work...u cant do that it is a bug....check other treads about it for details



BigBadVu, since you made the claim, would you mind showing us your proof sir?

Greyrider, have you had the opportunity to accomplish this task? How do I get the information I need from sonar with my periscope down, 'cause putting your periscope UP gives away your position. It would be great if this 'feat' could be accomplished.

[PeriscopeDepth]

IRL, I'm not sure about the KM, but the USN I know thought that it would be a good idea to fire on sound bearings only to avoid ASW measures. So...that's what skippers did at the beginning of the war. They found out quickly it simply wasn't accurate enough, it just didn't work.

I'm fairly sure shooting at sound bearings wasn't done at all historically by the U-Boots FWIW.

PD

[joea]

That's right, periscopes were used to attack (or uzos on the surface). Anyway what "sound trainer" are you talking about? It is a mod not provided by ubi. We have hydrophones to detect ships when underwater but the u-boots never used them to attack so it is not a realistic tactic, and didn't work out for the USN either.

[robj250]

IRL, I'm not sure about the KM, but the USN I know thought that it would be a good idea to fire on sound bearings only to avoid ASW measures. So...that's what skippers did at the beginning of the war. They found out quickly it simply wasn't accurate enough, it just didn't work.

I'm fairly sure shooting at sound bearings wasn't done at all historically by the U-Boots FWIW.

PD

Thanks for the info PeriscopeDepth. BTW, is there anyway I can get my own personal avator?

[PeriscopeDepth]

IRL, I'm not sure about the KM, but the USN I know thought that it would be a good idea to fire on sound bearings only to avoid ASW measures. So...that's what skippers did at the beginning of the war. They found out quickly it simply wasn't accurate enough, it just didn't work.

I'm fairly sure shooting at sound bearings wasn't done at all historically by the U-Boots FWIW.

PD

Thanks for the info PeriscopeDepth. BTW, is there anyway I can get my own personal avator?

PM The Onkel, I believe a small donation to subsim must be made.

PD

[dertechie]

Taking out ships without raising the scope is doable with just the hydrophone and sonar, but its fairly hard. You need to plot very accurately from hydrophone bearings and sonar distances. God's eye view bearing lines make it much easier though, and I've never tried it without them. You just have to gather your data and input it manually into the TDC. It can be done, but I can't see how you would target any specific part of the ship, only the ship as a whole. Get bearing from hydrophone, distance from sonar, speed from 3:15 rule and accurate plotting, AOB from accurate plotting. The problem is that you have absolutely no idea what you're shooting at, unless you ID it before you dive.

Any ideas on how to do effective MZ shots like this?

[Dantenoc]

I've shot at targets completely blind about 2 or 3 times... but it is so much work that it just isn't worth it. The times I've done was when the weather was so bad that you can't see the target unless your within 200 meters in range (to close to fire).

The point is that: it is possible, but to do it you must cheat a little in compensation of a few things that are missing from the game's sound model (Greyriders mention of sound pitch is one important issue, for example)

Things to remember:
* Close range is within 1 km.
* Medium range is more than 1 km, but less than 3 kms.
* Longe range is more than 3 kms., but if your sonar operator can detect the ship, then it's likely less than... oh, let's say.... 13 kms... maybe, it's hard to say since experience and fatigue (we beleive) has a lot to do with how far your sonar operator can hear things... Oh, and weather affects too... and of course your own ship's noise (all stop on the engines is recomended)... oh! and also how deep your sub is.... and there's also that thing about different hydrophone models being available int the game... and then there's also.... ah the hell with it! let's just say 13 kms and pretend we're right.
* If your sonar guy can't detect the target but you can if you man the sonar yourself (something which is incredibly common), then the target is likely farther away than 13 kmts. but definetly less than 32 kms., which (I beleive) is the farthest that anyone has reported hearing anything.

With that you can draw bearing lines that you know that the target must be within at different moments in time. After a while, you can easily figure out the ship's track by drawing a straight line that crosses al these "bearing lines" that you have drawn.

Note that for this to work, you don't care about the target's exact speed or identity, but you do need to be able to stumble into a target that is traveling slow enough for you to outmaneuver.

Here are some pics, let's see if you can figure them out.

The setup:
http://static.flickr.com/56/107100189_df93f4b93c_o.jpg

The result (yeah, burn baby, burn! :rock: ):
http://static.flickr.com/50/107100190_0c2c3e703b_o.jpg

The setup (case two):
http://static.flickr.com/43/107100187_eb3d5aa138_o.jpg
This one was a hell of a lot easier, since it resulted from a radio contact, so I knew where the track originated from (thus fixing one of the line's end points).

Anyway, here's the result:
http://static.flickr.com/19/107100188_8eb255bd91_o.jpg
Yeah... your not so invisible now, Tommy, AREN'T YOU?!?! :x
You can't really hide if your BURNING LIKE A DRIED UP CHRISTMAS TREEEEEEE you stupid piece of !#$@ :rock: !!!!!

[Dekessey]

Wow Dantenoc, nice work.
Care to explain your set-up maps?

(n00b here :ping: )

[tbarak]

I don't know about shooting totally blind, but acoustic torps can be shot in the general direction of a target and stand a good chance of striking something. Same goes for FATs I suppose but I haven't gotten to those yet. Granted the acoustic ones work best if the target is traveling at least 12 knots, but I've hit tankers traveling far slower. I've never actually tried to shoot any types of eels while below periscope depth or deeper.

I think I read somewhere that Germany intended to develop torps that could be shot while the boat was submerged fairly deep. They mustn't have had much success since no records indicate its use in combat.

[BigBadVuk]

U can find and kill target by simple TMA methods luike in modern sub...I was talking about part of active sonnar for type XXI,Falkon-gerat...which is not implemented in game but is mentioned in manual...

[Tonnage_Ace]

U can find and kill target by simple TMA methods luike in modern sub...I was talking about part of active sonnar for type XXI,Falkon-gerat...which is not implemented in game but is mentioned in manual...
I've mentioned this before on another post. If the system of giving the speed and heading of a sound contact were possible on real-life XXI's, how would the system then work in-game? I guess they cut this as well as other features out, like the un-raisable radar antenna, so they could implement a dynamic campaign in SH3. Using the XXI's sonar, would you have a button to turn on active sonar and then lock the dial of the hydrophone on the contact, like you do with the periscopes, say for 30 seconds until the computer could judge the speed and heading? Did they have mechanical computers which could do this? Interesting stuff if someone could point us in a direction to some material explaining the process...

[BigBadVuk]

Well..i dont know how did germans did it but io know how it shuid be: 1 HF ping and u have bearing and range...30 sec later 1 more HF ping (HF so u cant hear him like MF ping used by asdic) and u have second point on map..connect that 2 and u have spped,range,distance,AOB...and u can shoot from 50 m down below :up:

[Tonnage_Ace]

Well..i dont know how did germans did it but io know how it shuid be: 1 HF ping and u have bearing and range...30 sec later 1 more HF ping (HF so u cant hear him like MF ping used by asdic) and u have second point on map..connect that 2 and u have spped,range,distance,AOB...and u can shoot from 50 m down below :up:
So your saying that the game would draw two lines automatically on the map for you to connect? Good idea, but I'd like to hear what the actual process was.

[BigBadVuk]

Me too :smug:

[Myxale]

:o
Amazing Dantenoc! Care to share the formula!

If i could do it that way, this would've made my U-Boot life easier.
Yesterday was hell. English channel; Night; Heavy sea; Heavy Fog; lot's of Rain: And Soundcontacts everywhere around my Boot, and from the loudness of it; they seemed to be in spitting range! But did i see anything :nope:
Bah, bad day!

[robj250]

Amazing Dantenoc :o Would you mind sharing the formula?