Ap shells

[acdc666]

Hey

I cant fire AP shells all the rest are fine but when i set it on a target it just fires HE, can anyone help?

[irish1958]

You don't want AP shells as they will go through thin skinned boats and not explode. The Japanese found this out in the battle of Leyte Gulf when they tried to sink the American destroyers making torpedo runs at their capital ships. Their AP shells just went through them with little damage. I don't think subs in WWII even had AP shells.
irish1958

[Heibges]

Germans used AP shells to "ventillate the boat" so it would burn better. First they would use HE to mark the target, then the AP, then back to HE.

[tycho102]

heh. Mark the target.

Yeah, I do that. I mark their cargo. It usually lights up pretty good. After that, I punch through the hull with a few AP's (front and aft), and then lob HE's into it.

[tbarak]

I don't know if it's stupid, but I will shoot just about anything at the merchants as long as it sinks them. The gunners never use the AP shells but I'll take over the gun and use them first. I've even had to finish off a C3 once with star shells (SS)- although I can't be certain the ship was overcome by its wounds or if the SS did it.

[Salvadoreno]

In GW and NYGM i am unable to fire AP shells

[Heibges]

This is paraphrased from the Submarine Commanders Handbook

272. For the torpedo firing submarine, the gunnery is and remains
a minor weapon, to be used on occasion, because the use of gunnery-
openly and on the surface- runs counter to the primary purpose of
the submarine, which is the surprise underwater attack.

In accordance with this primary fact, the torpedo-firing submarine
only uses its gunnery in waging war against merchant shipping, that
is to say, for the purpose of stopping steamers, or of overcoming
the resistance of unarmed or weakly armed vessels.

273. Everytime the commander resorts to the use of gunnery, he
must bear in mind that, in wartime, almost all enemy merchant
ships are armed, and that neutral markings are not proof that the
ships thus marked are really neutral and harmless.

275. The gunnery raid should be executed at dusk, or
after dark, with all weapons at minimum range (600-1100m).
During the day, or on moonlit nights, a gunnery attack at long
range can only succeed if the enemy is poorly armed or unarmed.

1. Precise arrangements are to be made regarding method of
covering the target. Fire should be concentrated on the bridge
and superstructures, beginning with 10rds on incendiary shells,
in order to get a good aiming point from the resulting fire. The
2cm MG should only be used if there is a stoppage with the
MG-34 due to its negative effect on night vision.

2. After the type and armament of the enemy ship have been
ascertained:

aa) approach the steamer cautiously from the rear. Range according
to darkness, but in no circumstances longer than 600 to 800m.

bb) or overhaul on the limits of visibilty to postition 50 degrees to
60 degrees. Approach on a dogleg course to reach a position of 100
degrees and a range of 800m. Rudder hard over by 6 or 7 "DEZ" to
the direction of the running fight, with a slight shortening of the range.
Open fire as soon as you are on course. This method has the
advantage of a quicker passage through the danger zone, but, on the
other hand, the disadvantage of attacking from a sector which can
be better observed by the enemy.

cc) or overhaul on the limits of visibility until the narrow position is
reached, approach on a dogleg course, and manuever in such a
way such that the range in the 90 degree position in 500m to 800m.
Then open up with your guns like a bolt out of the blue, while at
the same time increasing the speed of the submarine. The submarine,
firing its guns, passes behind the stern of the enemy ship, and is in
the postion, at any moment, to shorten the range by turning towards
the enemy, or increase the range by turning away.

3. The second shot must hit the mark.

If after the first artillery attack,
enemy fire is still to be reckoned with, it is advisable to attack in short
burst (approximately 6 to 8 rounds of 8.8cm or 10.5cm, and proportionate
amounts of machine gun fire), and beat down the enemy resistance
without exposing the submarine by staying too long near the enemy.

In order to sink the ship quicker the fire should afterwards be directed
only at the bows or the stern. On an even keel, ship only sink slowly.

In carrying out the gunnery raid, a sharp lookout must be kept (IWO)
to leeward of the gunfire. In certain circumstances, it is advisable,
as soon as a certain level of effect is observed (collapse of enemy
resistance), to interrupt the attack, and to take up postion on the
other side of the enemy.

276. As soon as the gunners on the enemy merchant begin to find
the range, the uboat must turn away or submerge.

278. Hints concerning the use of gunnery.

a) before the submarine surfaces for the gunnery raid, the guncrew
must assemble in the Control Room ready for action, with all
equipment (ammunition cases open, ammuniton feed prepared),
so as to get the gun firing in the shortest time possible after
surfacing.

c) As a matter of principle, the entire guncrew, including those in
charge of the magazine, should always be strapped on while
working. The danger of falling overboard is great, and the fishing
for men who have fallen into the water wastes valuable time.

d) Ammunition is to be protected from getting we by splashes and
spray. Wet ammunition causes the bursting of cartridge cases, and
thereby, in certain circumstances, troublesome stoppages.

[Ducimus]

As it pertains to SH3, exactly what is the bennfit of using AP shells? I have yet to see one that was noticeable.

[Heibges]

There is no benefit.

But there are a few folks who like to play SH3 as a pure simulation, and do things exactly like they did back in the day.

Like Civil War or Revolutionary War re-enactors.

[Ducimus]

There is no benefit.

But there are a few folks who like to play SH3 as a pure simulation, and do things exactly like they did back in the day.

Like Civil War or Revolutionary War re-enactors.

Ahhh, i see.


-------------------------------------------------------
May 15, 1942, Lorient france.... U178 is resupplying for next war patrol:


Me: How goes the refitting Chief?

CE: Fine sir, the diesals are throughly checked out. Motor room is checked out. The aft torpedo room is taking a bit longer i'm afraid.

Me: Problems?

CE: That shell ate up the hull a bit. Seals need to be replaced as well as the outer doors on tubes 5 and 6. FIring mechanisms need an overhaul as well.

Me: Ahh, i see.

Me: Udo, based on last patrol what are your recomendation's for what to bring next patrol?

WO: Yes kaptian. No more crappy magnetic warheads, and those armor piecring rounds for the deck gun ist schite. It took 19 of those blasted things to sink a leaky rustbucket tugboat! We'd be better off using harsh language over a megaphone. I want to replace those with some working HE rounds instead.

Me: Agreed. Go ahead and make the neccessary arragements.

WO: (stares back with a sly smirk) Already done.

Me: *rolls eyes*

[BigBadVuk]

SO no AP in GW mod right?....and Why there is AA shel for my 88mm deck gun if i cant use it against aircraft?

[Tonnage_Ace]

AP rounds for the AA guns are supposed to be used against ships, not planes. Although I would suggest not using flak guns against shipping, unless you have the M42 double gun, which, by the time you get it, is too late because merchants are already armed by this point. AP rounds for the deck guns are to be used against warships, or at least, in my experience, they are quite useful when used on warships. I noticed that in the stock game, before I installed any mods, that the AI would automatically load AP shells in the gun when targetting a warship, try this yourself and you'll see. Merchants were thin skinned by warship standards, so AP shells would probably go right through them, HE are perfect, then, at penetrating one side of the ship and igniting it's 'volotaile' cargo.

Think of why we have JHP bullets and FMJ ones. JHP(jacket-hollow point) are for un-armoured targets and FMJ are for amoured ones.

[rogerbo]

The AP is suposed to be used against Armored Ships so they are for the ones you don't want to make a gun battle with LOL
If you have manned the D G with your Crew and target a Military Vessel then they will load automaticaly the AP Shells EVEN in GW.
However against a Merchant the HE will be loaded.
What was the though behinde the AP shell ? It should Penetrate the Ships Armor and THEN explode some how this is not modeled in SHIII so they only make wholes in the Ships and that's it.
If they would be modeled like the real one that would be more fun as you the realy had a chance to sink a Flower with it.

[CptGrayWolf]

This is paraphrased from the Submarine Commanders Handbook


Heibges I've seen you quoting the Commanders Handbook before and also I think you follow what is written in it, I remember reading something about Hydrophone checks only between dusk to dawn etc...
But I coulnt help thinking about something, right now I'm reading Das Boot and how the 'Old Man' is basicaly mocking his notes written by C-in-C ( look pg225 ).
My point is this, ever thought that the Handbook was maybe a joke to Captains? Or if not a joke, maybe they din't follow it to the letter. I have a feeling U-boat captains were somewhat of rebels...
This is just a thought, let me know if I'm way off.

[irish1958]

Rogerbo,
AP shells won't sink a destroyer as they should go through it and leave a very small hole. Destroyers have very little or no armor. Witness the Japanese at Leyle Gulf. They lost several capital ships before they figured it out and switched to HE shells.
irish1958

[rogerbo]

Rogerbo,
AP shells won't sink a destroyer as they should go through it and leave a very small hole. Destroyers have very little or no armor. Witness the Japanese at Leyle Gulf. They lost several capital ships before they figured it out and switched to HE shells.
irish1958

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell

An armour piercing shell is a type of ammunition designed to penetrate armour and detonate. In naval warfare and older anti-tank shells, the shell had to withstand the shock of punching through armour plate. Shells designed for this purpose had a greatly strengthened case with a specially hardened and shaped nose, and a much smaller bursting charge. Some smaller calibre AP shells have an inert filling, or incendiary charge in place of the HE bursting charge. The AP shell is now very rarely seen except in naval usage, and is not commonly used there.

I DIDN'T say that in SHIII you CAN sink a DD with the AP shells, but what purpose they should have.

[Heibges]

The captains are the ones that wrote the book. The tactics were thought up by Dönitz after WWI, tested by these captains in the Wargames of 1935/1936 and proven in their brilliant successes until May 1943 despite having only a thin slice of the German industrial pie.

It was their inability to use these tactics after Black May, that caused their lack of success.

And remember, in Das Boot, the captain stays on the surface even in that heavy storm because there is no fog. He only dives to rest the crew.

He does a quick soundcheck when he gets to the place where the convoy should be, but doesn't spot it. All according to the Uboat Commanders Handbook.

Think of it this way. If you were in the US Army and had to conduct a raid, and you would come up with the smartest plan you could based on your mission, the enemy, time you have for the operation, the terrain you are fighting on, and the troops you had at your disposal.

But no matter what your plan looked like, you would always have an assault and support element. You would always have a standard SOP for actions on the objective.

[CptGrayWolf]

The captains are the ones that wrote the book.
Good enough for me then! :up:

[Ducimus]

AP rounds for the AA guns are supposed to be used against ships, not planes. Although I would suggest not using flak guns against shipping, unless you have the M42 double gun,

This i always knew. the double 42 3.7 MM is arguably the best piece you can strap onto your boat. Continuous fire and versitale. You can use those AP rounds on light shipping, tugboats or fishingboats and they're effective. Not to mention deadly AA.


AP rounds for the deck guns are to be used against warships,

Thats the book answer, and i think everyone sort of knows this. Trouble is, well, it's suicidal to engage a warship with a deck gun to begin with. So loading AP for the deck gun is rather pointless in my opinion.

[Sailor Steve]

Germans used AP shells to "ventillate the boat" so it would burn better. First they would use HE to mark the target, then the AP, then back to HE.
Your quote from the Commander's Handbook mentions 'incendiary' but where is this reference to "ventillate the boat" from?

I ask because the only source I have on weapons of the period mentions SS and AP for surface ships only. I'm not saying I'm right on this, or even trying to argue; I'd just like the matter cleared up once and for all.

[Tonnage_Ace]

AP rounds for the AA guns are supposed to be used against ships, not planes. Although I would suggest not using flak guns against shipping, unless you have the M42 double gun,

This i always knew. the double 42 3.7 MM is arguably the best piece you can strap onto your boat. Continuous fire and versitale. You can use those AP rounds on light shipping, tugboats or fishingboats and they're effective. Not to mention deadly AA.


AP rounds for the deck guns are to be used against warships,

Thats the book answer, and i think everyone sort of knows this. Trouble is, well, it's suicidal to engage a warship with a deck gun to begin with. So loading AP for the deck gun is rather pointless in my opinion.
I've gone after Corvettes and Trawlers before with the 88 and 105, but of course, a destroyer is out of the question. Although I did try it once at night: he was passing in front of me and I decided to light him up with a starshell and bang away with the 88. Of course, a 105 might have been more effective but still fool-hardy. The benefit of attacking a destroyer at night was that he couldn't see me at first, I had him lit up and he didn't have radar, so there I was, firing at the destroyer, 5 km away, he fired some shots, but totally missed me being that I was probably really hard to make out and he even fired some star shells in the wrong direction. I fired all my AP rounds and then started on the HE, but he got too close and was heading to ram me, so I dived, surprisingly with little, to no damage, as I think he only hit me once in the stern.

[rogerbo]

When you mention the 3,7 mm, in the Book about the Graf Spee they wrote that they used the 3,7mm to stop Ships using the Radio but in one case they found out that the Radio Room was Protected by Sandbag and that the 3,7 was useless in that case.

[Cdre Gibs]

A tatic I employ with great success is to sneak into the convoy, track the single escort ( this is when there is only 1 and its has to be either a Corvette or Armed Trawler) and creep up right behind it. I then do an emergency blow and surface directly behind the escort. I then get my Gun crew to lay into the escort at close range (~400M or less). Whilst they are doing this I maintain the sub directly behind the escort as it try's to ZigZag and get a beading on me. By doing this I only have the small caliber AA gun of the escort to worry about. This is easily destroyed by the DG. After that its pound that escort into submission and sink it, then make merry hell with the convoy.

For this tatic the DG crew always load the AP ammo. It makes very short work of the Corvett/Armed Trawler's. It also leaves me with HE rounds to use on the convoy.

[CptGrayWolf]

A tatic I employ with great success is to sneak into the convoy, track the single escort ( this is when there is only 1 and its has to be either a Corvette or Armed Trawler) and creep up right behind it. I then do an emergency blow and surface directly behind the escort. I then get my Gun crew to lay into the escort at close range (~400M or less). Whilst they are doing this I maintain the sub directly behind the escort as it try's to ZigZag and get a beading on me. By doing this I only have the small caliber AA gun of the escort to worry about. This is easily destroyed by the DG. After that its pound that escort into submission and sink it, then make merry hell with the convoy.

For this tatic the DG crew always load the AP ammo. It makes very short work of the Corvett/Armed Trawler's. It also leaves me with HE rounds to use on the convoy.

Something tells me this tactic is not in the handbook! :rotfl:

[Heibges]

Germans used AP shells to "ventillate the boat" so it would burn better. First they would use HE to mark the target, then the AP, then back to HE.
Your quote from the Commander's Handbook mentions 'incendiary' but where is this reference to "ventillate the boat" from?

I ask because the only source I have on weapons of the period mentions SS and AP for surface ships only. I'm not saying I'm right on this, or even trying to argue; I'd just like the matter cleared up once and for all.

Hmmm. I don't know where I heard that. But I just realized that to a submariner it would be a double entrendre. I wonder if it is on the Erich Topp interview from SH2. But whoever said it was probably a submariner.

[tbarak]

I'm in mid-42 and it's not just the escort guns you have to worry about. Every little merchant seems to have at least on one deck gun. Thank Poisidon lone T3s so far have nothing bigger than MGs. LOL, it's funny when you target the weapons and the gunners get flung into the air when you hit their guns.