From rags to riches?

[Skybird]

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=1579981

It sometimes (from an american side: often) is said that "everyone" in the promised country could make it to the top. That everyone could become a rich man if only he tries hard enough, and that everyone could become president, and that this system works og so much better than the"overcontrolled" social regulation in "socialist" Europe. American society thinks irrational here, like i9t is irrational to play Lotto: the chance to win the big jackpot is so thin that all of us in this forum will never know, even hear of someone who won it, and the same is true for our children and children'S children. Nevertheless, millions waste their money playing Lotto. It's an irrational process, turning unrealistically low chances into realistic chances - in our fantasy.

and if you are a street dog, maybe you even need the belief that it will be better for your children, else reality would be to cruel to bear, and the question "Why?" remains unanswered. People need to see sense and reason in their life, else their soul becomes ill.

But Europeans and social-examiners from both continents know it better since long that the reality is slightly different. We ineurope have no reason to copy the american model - "from rags to riches" is illusory only. for every winner, there are hundreds if not thousands of loosers. And it seems that the socalled social mobility already is higher in Europe, than in the US, and chances for improvement of living conditions from one generation to the next are clearly better in European countries, than in the US . Nevertheless "market liberators" and "guardians of unregulated free trade" do not get tired to tell us that doing according to the american way would solve our problems, reduce the level of unemploment, would give anyone better chances if he only works hard enough, and bring our economies into swing again. They are lobbying for the advanatge of a smaller and smaller anti-democratic plutocratic elite only. They are only the lobbyists of the raising plutocratic elite.

[scandium]

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=1579981

It sometimes (from an american side: often) is said that "everyone" in the promised country could make it to the top. That everyone could become a rich man if only he tries hard enough, and that everyone could become president, and that this system works og so much better than the"overcontrolled" social regulation in "socialist" Europe. American society thinks irrational here, like i9t is irrational to play Lotto: the chance to win the big jackpot is so thin that all of us in this forum will never know, even hear of someone who won it, and the same is true for our children and children'S children. Nevertheless, millions waste their money playing Lotto. It's an irrational process, turning unrealistically low chances into realistic chances - in our fantasy.

and if you are a street dog, maybe you even need the belief that it will be better for your children, else reality would be to cruel to bear, and the question "Why?" remains unanswered. People need to see sense and reason in their life, else their soul becomes ill.

But Europeans and social-examiners from both continents know it better since long that the reality is slightly different. We ineurope have no reason to copy the american model - "from rags to riches" is illusory only. for every winner, there are hundreds if not thousands of loosers. And it seems that the socalled social mobility already is higher in Europe, than in the US, and chances for improvement of living conditions from one generation to the next are clearly better in European countries, than in the US . Nevertheless "market liberators" and "guardians of unregulated free trade" do not get tired to tell us that doing according to the american way would solve our problems, reduce the level of unemploment, would give anyone better chances if he only works hard enough, and bring our economies into swing again. They are lobbying for the advanatge of a smaller and smaller anti-democratic plutocratic elite only. They are only the lobbyists of the raising plutocratic elite.

In fact the existence of the American middle class is largely due to "left-wing" reform through the early 20th century emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal". All of which is slowly being swept aside as America moves farther and farther to the right while inequality increases and the middle class slowly disappears. Things have reached the point in the US where "liberal" has become a bad word that's used to insult someone with.

[Wim Libaers]

However, the European system is obviously a bad idea if you also provide that service to every third-world refugee who gets in, even if you do not take into account the cultural/religious/ideological issues. And the system attracts those people.

[kgsuarez]

The truth of the matter is, there is no perfect system. Humans are flawed.

There's no way to really solve this problem. People will always take advantage of their power, in one way or another. It's the way things get done... taking advantage of oportunities that present themselves. That's all it really comes down to. Some people get lucky, other people, don't. Succesful people are simply people who have been presented an oportunity, have realized it, and have taken full advantage of it.

Money is everything today. If you have money, you have power, and power insures survival (or at least comfort, in the modern world.)

What a sad world it is. :sunny:

[Type XXIII]

Good post, Skybird. I might not agree with you on several matters, but it appears that we share the same opinions on economic politics.

You say 'Lotto-mentality' is the reason people supports the market liberal system, but another reason, that may be just as important, is people's tendency to exaggerate their own abilities and chances in a competitve system. People believe that in a competitive economic system, they will be among the winners, but as you say, the great majority will be among the losers.

[Skybird]

You say 'Lotto-mentality' is the reason people supports the market liberal system,

No, that make it sound queer, somehow. I meant the irrational mental approach on lotto chances to hit the jackpot compares to people distorting their cognitions with regard to their own chances in an unregulated market system. To spend yourself some comfort in the presence of not too bright chances, you need to manipulate your perception of it. Psychologists call this avoidance of cognitive dissonance.

I repeatedly said in earlier debates on economics that I consider the US and Europe to be the two extreme poles of the economical continuum - what the one side is exaggerating, the other side is in need of. Europe is overregulated in certain areas, whereas American approach is more like jungle-law due to to little social regulation. The optimum, imo, would be found somewhere inbetween. but the EU seems to be set on a course to centralized over-controlling, paired with hyperliberal economy-philosophy, and the US demands even more disregulation of global trade. And the split between the rich elite and the working poor is widening.

Of course, economical self-perception of business and industry works the same in both regions. They always tend to overestimate their perspectives if they are in favour of their profits, and they always tend to ignore reasons that are in opposition to such perspectives.

Both regions live beyond what they can financially afford, but they waste the money in partially very different ways. But in both cases it costs future generations, and the rest of the world. There is no sign, that the emerging economical superpower of the near future, China, is learning from our mistakes. It seems they are determined to repeat our mistakes.

[August]

In fact the existence of the American middle class is largely due to "left-wing" reform through the early 20th century emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal".

The American middle class far predates FDR.

[joea]

In fact the existence of the American middle class is largely due to "left-wing" reform through the early 20th century emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal".

The American middle class far predates FDR.

Indeed. :hmm:

[scandium]

In fact the existence of the American middle class is largely due to "left-wing" reform through the early 20th century emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal".

The American middle class far predates FDR.

Where did I say otherwise? I said only that his "New Deal" was one of the things generally creditted to its post-depression expansion.

[August]

In fact the existence of the American middle class is largely due to "left-wing" reform through the early 20th century emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal".

The American middle class far predates FDR.

Where did I say otherwise? I said only that his "New Deal" was one of the things generally creditted to its post-depression expansion.

No you said the "existance of the American middle class", not the "expansion" of the middle class. The American middle class has existed long before FDR and continues to exist in full health today.

In fact one could argue that the elevation of factory laborers to the "middle class" was an artificial condition that has resulted in the complete loss of these jobs to foreign competition.

[micky1up]

the truth is sadly that the european systems have been here an awful lot longer than the US and are steeped in a more cultured and historical back ground, unfortunately for the americans in making the US they destroyed a much more cultured human system that of the native indians

[The Avon Lady]

Now I'm lost. How did we get to the Indians? :hmm:

[scandium]

In fact the existence of the American middle class is largely due to "left-wing" reform through the early 20th century emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal".

The American middle class far predates FDR.

Where did I say otherwise? I said only that his "New Deal" was one of the things generally creditted to its post-depression expansion.

No you said the "existance of the American middle class", not the "expansion" of the middle class. The American middle class has existed long before FDR and continues to exist in full health today.

In fact one could argue that the elevation of factory laborers to the "middle class" was an artificial condition that has resulted in the complete loss of these jobs to foreign competition.

This kind of hair splitting is a complete waste of time so I'm only going to post one more time on that and then leave it. I'd said the existence of the American middle class is largely (but not exclusively, note the word largely in the sentence) due to left-wing reform through the emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal". That is the full sentence. It does not say "FDR created the middle class", nor does it read that way unless you're functionally illiterate and have trouble with reading comprehension.

[August]

In fact the existence of the American middle class is largely due to "left-wing" reform through the early 20th century emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal".

The American middle class far predates FDR.

Where did I say otherwise? I said only that his "New Deal" was one of the things generally creditted to its post-depression expansion.

No you said the "existance of the American middle class", not the "expansion" of the middle class. The American middle class has existed long before FDR and continues to exist in full health today.

In fact one could argue that the elevation of factory laborers to the "middle class" was an artificial condition that has resulted in the complete loss of these jobs to foreign competition.

This kind of hair splitting is a complete waste of time so I'm only going to post one more time on that and then leave it. I'd said the existence of the American middle class is largely (but not exclusively, note the word largely in the sentence) due to left-wing reform through the emergence of unions and FDR's "New Deal". That is the full sentence. It does not say "FDR created the middle class", nor does it read that way unless you're functionally illiterate and have trouble with reading comprehension.

Now now Scandium. Just because you exaggerated and someone called you on it that's no reason to act like a jerk.

[Abraham]

The growth/expansion of a middl class in a free society is the logical consequense of the existence of an wealthy upper class.

I don't agree at all with Skybird because the "American Dream" is not based on a lottery, but on ambition and productivity. The American economy expanded much faster in the first half of the 20th century than the European economies and the American "middle class" had a higher standard of living than the European "middle class", as far as I was know/ thaught.
Check August's sig...

[scandium]

The growth/expansion of a middl class in a free society is the logical consequense of the existence of an wealthy upper class.

Sorry but I don't see how the existence of a wealthy upper class logically leads to the growth/expansion of the middle class. Perhaps you could briefly explain this logic to me?

[Skybird]

Obviously the findings in that report no one minds to adress. what FDR and the time before him casued in effects is not so much important anymore. what the rwlaity is like in the present, say the last 10-15 years until today - this is what counts, I would think: or where the history of the last decades las led us to in the present.

[bradclark1]

The growth/expansion of a middl class in a free society is the logical consequense of the existence of an wealthy upper class.

Sorry but I don't see how the existence of a wealthy upper class logically leads to the growth/expansion of the middle class. Perhaps you could briefly explain this logic to me?

What scandium said.

[The Avon Lady]

The growth/expansion of a middl class in a free society is the logical consequense of the existence of an wealthy upper class.
Sorry but I don't see how the existence of a wealthy upper class logically leads to the growth/expansion of the middle class. Perhaps you could briefly explain this logic to me?
What scandium said.
I would think that part of the answer would be that it's the wealthy that have the largest potential to invest in creating and maintaining businesses and industry.

[August]

The wealthy also require an entire host of business services that are owned and operated by the middle class.

[Type XXIII]

The main point of this report is not asking whether we need a middle class or upper class, but rather asking if the American dream is a lie.

The report establishes that there are few chances that a child of poor parents will be rich when he grows up. It also shows that hard work is less and less rewarded. Cases of hardworking people working their way up from a poor background and being succesful are rare.

To quote Leonard Cohen "The poor stay poor, the rich get rich./That's how it goes./Everybody knows."

[The Avon Lady]

The main point of this report is not asking whether we need a middle class or upper class, but rather asking if the American dream is a lie.
I grew up in the US and we never lived with the notion that "the American dream" meant you were guaranteed a life of luxury. It meant the potential of living comfortably. Like dreams, sometimes this comes true.

Historically, I think the notion of "the American dream" was more related to new immigrants who came to the US from oppressed lands. For example, amongst Yiddish speaking European Jews, the US was known as "der goldener medinah" - "the golden land." Often, such people got off at Ellis island, were forced to simplify their family names and wound up living in tenament slums in the lower east side, slaving in sweat shops - their children, too.

Yet, I personally know of numerous families whose great grandparents went through all of that yet they managed little by little to raise their standards, with their offspring and future generations living lives that are better than anything their original US ancestors ever knew of.

I also know of plenty of wealthy people who went flat broke for numerous reasons.

[August]

The main point of this report is not asking whether we need a middle class or upper class, but rather asking if the American dream is a lie.

The report establishes that there are few chances that a child of poor parents will be rich when he grows up. It also shows that hard work is less and less rewarded. Cases of hardworking people working their way up from a poor background and being succesful are rare.

It's always been like that since people first started immigrating to this country. There has never been a guarentee of success, just a chance, sometimes a small chance, but that is far more than what was available in the countries they left.

[Deathblow]

My impression is that the first two post seem like outta the blue rants.... Do either of those two even live in the US? Reading newspapers and viewing from a far?

[scandium]

The growth/expansion of a middl class in a free society is the logical consequense of the existence of an wealthy upper class.
Sorry but I don't see how the existence of a wealthy upper class logically leads to the growth/expansion of the middle class. Perhaps you could briefly explain this logic to me?
What scandium said.
I would think that part of the answer would be that it's the wealthy that have the largest potential to invest in creating and maintaining businesses and industry.

This raises more questions than it answers. To begin with, where does their "wealth" come from and how do you know they invest it in business or industry? How do you know if they do that the business they create actually creates jobs in the US? Before you answer "of course it does" consider the number of jobs where little to no labour is required (due to automation) or that can be outsourced to other countries. I may for instance be extremely "wealthy" but derive it from goods produced in sweatshops in China and sold in the US thereby creating very few American jobs. Of course I employ many Chinese workers but how does that contribute to the American "middle class" that we're discussing?

Not to you specifically AL, but more to other points raised elsewhere in this thread, I can tell you for a fact that the middle class is shrinking. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "disappearing" but that trickle people feel isn't wealth trinkling down.

Fact: well-paying manufacturing jobs in the US are steadily disappearing as this sector of the economy continues to shrink to be replaced by a growing service sector. Although the service sector includes, in part, well paying service jobs its laregly made up of (and always has been) low-paying "McJobs" the bulk of which are in retail, fast food, etc. These jobs overwhelmingly offer little to no benefits and are largely part-time in nature. Thus, more and more Americans find themselves working multiple part-time jobs to try and equate full-time hours. For low wages and little or no benefits. This is the direct result of a number of factors all becoming more and more predominent in the US economy: the decline of the manufacturing sector and corresponding growth of the service sector; the increasing deskilling of labour; the increasing shift by employers to part-time hours; the increased prevalence of offshoring labour; and on and on. These are facts. And they do have an impact on generations growing up in this new reality and finding the deck increasingly stacked against them from the start.

[August]

Sorry but factory labor is NOT a middle class job.

[scandium]

Sorry but factory labor is NOT a middle class job.

Many traditional manufacturing jobs - the ones I referred to that have disappeared along with most of the manufacturing sector - were indeed middle class. They had real benefits, paid living wages, and were full-time jobs. They are the very heart of "blue-colar" middle class. And they are/were the antithesis of the service sector McJobs that have taken their place.

[Sea Demon]

Sorry but factory labor is NOT a middle class job.

Many traditional manufacturing jobs - the ones I referred to that have disappeared along with most of the manufacturing sector - were indeed middle class. They had real benefits, paid living wages, and were full-time jobs. They are the very heart of "blue-colar" middle class. And they are/were the antithesis of the service sector McJobs that have taken their place.

Perhaps if the unions would quit smothering these industries with some of their ridiculous demands, they wouldn't move abroad. Unions have outlived their usefulness. Have you seen what the United Auto Workers DEMAND in their packages?

[August]

Sorry but factory labor is NOT a middle class job.

Many traditional manufacturing jobs - the ones I referred to that have disappeared along with most of the manufacturing sector - were indeed middle class. They had real benefits, paid living wages, and were full-time jobs. They are the very heart of "blue-colar" middle class. And they are/were the antithesis of the service sector McJobs that have taken their place.

Perhaps if the unions would quit smothering these industries with some of their ridiculous demands, they wouldn't move abroad. Unions have outlived their usefulness. Have you seen what the United Auto Workers DEMAND in their packages?

That just the thing. Unions have used their power to get middle class wages and benefits for what have historically been lower class jobs. It is an artificial inflation of what constitutes the middle class.

In today's common uneducated usage, the term is often incorrectly applied to people who have a degree of economic independence, but not a great deal of social influence or power in their society. While in actual correct usage, "middle class" is defined as representing principally business and professional people, bureaucrats, and some farmers and skilled workers sharing common social characteristics and values.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

[Iceman]

1 Timothy 6
[1] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
[2] And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
[3] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[4] He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
[5] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
[6] But godliness with contentment is great gain.
[7] For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
[8] And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
[9] But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
[10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
[11] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
[12] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
[13] I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
[14] That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
[17] Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
[18] That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
[19] Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
[20] O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
[21] Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

One again for you Skybird...

The curse of man was to toil the ground all the days of his life and thorns and thistles will it yeild...Indeed...Be thankfull only the ground was cursed.Eat your daily bread with a humble heart.

[The Avon Lady]

Be thankfull only the ground was cursed.
Typical male! :down:

To the woman He said, "I shall surely increase your sorrow and your pregnancy; in pain you shall bear children. And to your husband will be your desire, and he will rule over you.
(Genesis 3:16)

[kiwi_2005]

Iceman, if i may ask what you think of that Benny Hinn character i saw him on TV the other day healing ppl in the name of Jesus, hes on a world tour and was in Indonesia , in front of a crowd of 500,000 and counting. He healed the sick, cancer patients, a boy in a wheel chair, etc., He would touch them and they would fall and shake upon the ground, sweating crying and do all that other devil out of me stuff it was pretty amazing to watch him perform but a part of me was going this is total BS. :D

Than again i dont know he could be for real

[Skybird]

Iceman, if i may ask what you think of that Benny Hinn character i saw him on TV the other day healing ppl in the name of Jesus, hes on a world tour and was in Indonesia , in front of a crowd of 500,000 and counting. He healed the sick, cancer patients, a boy in a wheel chair, etc., He would touch them and they would fall and shake upon the ground, sweating crying and do all that other devil out of me stuff it was pretty amazing to watch him perform but a part of me was going this is total BS. :D

Than again i dont know he could be for real

That he - or someone like him, there are so many - does "world tours", and celebrates himself in front of 500.000 tells you everything about him you need to know. Trust your mind, use your brain, check your intuition. You already feel the doubt, you say. Listen to it. Scepticism is your friend, and it is a legal attitude of mind, helping you to separate "believing" from "knowing by experience". Other people's experience with this guy are of no help for you. And if they claim to have been healed, or enlightend, or delighted, or whatever - of what use is this for YOU?


"Do not put faith in traditions, even though they have been accepted for long generations and in many countries. Do not believe a thing because many repeat it. Do not accept a thing on the authority of one or another of the sages of old, nor on the ground of statements as found in the books. Never believe anything because probability is in its favor. Do not believe in that which you yourselves have imagined, thinking that a god has inspired it. Believe nothing merely on the authority of the teachers or the priests. After examination, believe that which you have tested for yourself and found reasonable, which is in conformity with your well being and that of others." (Kalamas Sutra)

[The Avon Lady]

Iceman, if i may ask what you think of that Benny Hinn character i saw him on TV the other day healing ppl in the name of Jesus, hes on a world tour and was in Indonesia , in front of a crowd of 500,000 and counting. He healed the sick, cancer patients, a boy in a wheel chair, etc., He would touch them and they would fall and shake upon the ground, sweating crying and do all that other devil out of me stuff it was pretty amazing to watch him perform but a part of me was going this is total BS. :D

Than again i dont know he could be for real
That he - or someone like him, there are so many - does "world tours", and celebrates himself in front of 500.000 tells you everything about him you need to know. Trust your mind, use your brain, check your intuition.
And don't forget to Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2Bfraud+%2B%22faith+healers%22).

Sadly, we here have a handful of our own. :down:

[joea]

the truth is sadly that the european systems have been here an awful lot longer than the US and are steeped in a more cultured and historical back ground, unfortunately for the americans in making the US they destroyed a much more cultured human system that of the native indians

FFS, what crap is this? FYI, the EUROPEANs started massacring the Indians, oh and the UK got rich and was able to start the industrial revolution thanks in part to the triangular slave trade, after the destruction of the natives. (Yes I know once the Brtish Empire got rich it abolished the slave trade and the good ol RN stopped it but still) Which helped create the working and middle classes of the modern world...

[Abraham]

@ Bradclark1:
The growth/expansion of a middl class in a free society is the logical consequense of the existence of an wealthy upper class.
Sorry but I don't see how the existence of a wealthy upper class logically leads to the growth/expansion of the middle class. Perhaps you could briefly explain this logic to me?
What scandium said.
I would think that part of the answer would be that it's the wealthy that have the largest potential to invest in creating and maintaining businesses and industry.
What The Avon Lady said.

[Type XXIII]

Perhaps if the unions would quit smothering these industries with some of their ridiculous demands, they wouldn't move abroad. Unions have outlived their usefulness. Have you seen what the United Auto Workers DEMAND in their packages?

Unions are no less important today than they were 30 years ago. I do not know exactly how the situation is in the US, but here in Europe, unions have grown in importance the last years. This is due to the brutalization of the work market caused by more liberal laws. Since the work market in US traditionally is more liberal than that in Europe, i'd guess they're even more important over there.

Perhaps if the owners of those industries had taken out less profit, the industries wouldn't have to move abroad.

[Iceman]

Iceman, if i may ask what you think of that Benny Hinn character i saw him on TV the other day healing ppl in the name of Jesus, hes on a world tour and was in Indonesia , in front of a crowd of 500,000 and counting. He healed the sick, cancer patients, a boy in a wheel chair, etc., He would touch them and they would fall and shake upon the ground, sweating crying and do all that other devil out of me stuff it was pretty amazing to watch him perform but a part of me was going this is total BS. :D

Than again i dont know he could be for real

That he - or someone like him, there are so many - does "world tours", and celebrates himself in front of 500.000 tells you everything about him you need to know. Trust your mind, use your brain, check your intuition. You already feel the doubt, you say. Listen to it. Scepticism is your friend, and it is a legal attitude of mind, helping you to separate "believing" from "knowing by experience". Other people's experience with this guy are of no help for you. And if they claim to have been healed, or enlightend, or delighted, or whatever - of what use is this for YOU?


"Do not put faith in traditions, even though they have been accepted for long generations and in many countries. Do not believe a thing because many repeat it. Do not accept a thing on the authority of one or another of the sages of old, nor on the ground of statements as found in the books. Never believe anything because probability is in its favor. Do not believe in that which you yourselves have imagined, thinking that a god has inspired it. Believe nothing merely on the authority of the teachers or the priests. After examination, believe that which you have tested for yourself and found reasonable, which is in conformity with your well being and that of others." (Kalamas Sutra)

Skybird says it all.... a tree is known by it's fruit.

Benny Hinn I know very little about but look at his deeds...what is he doing?...if he is healing the sick and curing the blind in Jesus name that is the key...it is done by the power of Jesus name only...nothing of Benny Hinn.

It was commanded by Jesus on his departure to do just what you say he was doing, heal the sick, cure the blind etc....it was also said by Jesus if they doubted him how much more would they do unto the followers.

Sounds to me like a compliment on Benny Hinns part he is doing something right.It was also said beware of wolves in sheeps clothing....but a wolf can only hide so long until his ravenous true self peeks out.Indeed the road to hell is wide and many there be that go down it and the road to heaven is narrow and few there be that find it.Jesus said what I tell you I tell all my servants....Watch.

The doubt Skybird talks about goes all the way back to Thomas who wouldn't believe until he touched the wounds of Jesus, but blessed are those who believe and have not seen.The Holy Spirit was sent after Jesus ascension so we were not left as orphans.

The Holy Spirit is the Teacher, the comforter, the one who will guide you into all truth.Seek and ye shall find.

Revelation 21
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Christ has already won the war on the cross and eternal life is a free gift, paid in full with the blood of God's own son...it can't be earned, heaven can't be broken into.One must enter in thru the door.Welcomed as a son and heir to the kingdom.

[Iceman]

Be thankfull only the ground was cursed.
Typical male! :down:

To the woman He said, "I shall surely increase your sorrow and your pregnancy; in pain you shall bear children. And to your husband will be your desire, and he will rule over you.
(Genesis 3:16)

Well thank God for this one huh Avon... :)

Revelation 22
[3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
[4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

[Sharkstooth]

Perhaps if the unions would quit smothering these industries with some of their ridiculous demands, they wouldn't move abroad. Unions have outlived their usefulness. Have you seen what the United Auto Workers DEMAND in their packages?

Unions are no less important today than they were 30 years ago. I do not know exactly how the situation is in the US, but here in Europe, unions have grown in importance the last years. This is due to the brutalization of the work market caused by more liberal laws. Since the work market in US traditionally is more liberal than that in Europe, i'd guess they're even more important over there.

Perhaps if the owners of those industries had taken out less profit, the industries wouldn't have to move abroad.

At one time, the unions were very necessary here in the US. Now they have grown massive and exist simply to feed the union. They protect the 'bad' worker and give the 'good' worker no incentive to work better. It can be wonderful if your job is protected by a union, but if you are in management and non-union, it is almost impossible to get rid of a non productive worker.
I've been on both sides of the coin, and my father was a union organizer years ago. He was very pro-union, but he saw the way the unions were headed in his later years.

[August]

At one time, the unions were very necessary here in the US. Now they have grown massive and exist simply to feed the union. They protect the 'bad' worker and give the 'good' worker no incentive to work better. It can be wonderful if your job is protected by a union, but if you are in management and non-union, it is almost impossible to get rid of a non productive worker.
I've been on both sides of the coin, and my father was a union organizer years ago. He was very pro-union, but he saw the way the unions were headed in his later years.

Exactly. The unions here have basically gotten too fat and greedy. As a result they are pricing themselves right out of the ever more global market.

Personally i've never preferred collective bargaining. I can make my own deals and I've found i can often do much better than union scale without the automatic adversarial relationship with management that's found in union shops.