Did rough seas really make life THAT easy for submariners?

[Bustoff]

I have been playing the Grey Wolves mod for some a while now and I am quite pleased with it. Everything just feels more realistic. The only thing that seems a little off is the way rough weather is handled.

For example, I spotted a convoy and put myself in a great position right ahead of it. It is April 1943 so I was very careful to submerge long before they could detect me. The weather conditions were perfect: Partly Cloudy, 15 kt winds and light fog. Those are absolutely ideal weather conditions for SHIII. You can charge in at flank speed with your periscope up and you will never be detected. I passed within 1000 meters of a destroyer and he just went happily chugging on by. :rotfl:

I was picking off ships with ease. Now I know that the stock game does not take into account the way rough seas effect torpedo depth keeping so I know that made my situation easier than reality. But shouldnt the escorts be better?

With the notoriously bad weather in the north atlantic a lot more convoys should have been penetrated according to SHIII!

[Raptor]

They might have been, had the u-boat(s) been able to find them in the first place. The ocean is a big place and the view from the conning tower is very lmited.

Also, since the allies were reading much of the Kriegsmarine radio traffic, or at least spotting boats through direction-finding, they were able to re-route convoys that might otherwise have been found. When u-boats stayed silent, sinkings went up; when they used their radios, sinkings went down.

Donitz's unreasonable demands for constant up-dates from his boats was counter-productive. He could have achieved much more by making the bulk of the Kriegsmaring radio traffic one-way; from shore to sea at pre-determined intervals. A boat would have to surface during one of these to receive that day's radio traffic. Even if the allies could read much of it, they still wouldn't know much about where the boats were since they never cracked the Kriegsmarine map grid system.

[ref]

Now I know that the stock game does not take into account the way rough seas effect torpedo depth keeping so I know that made my situation easier than reality. But shouldnt the escorts be better?

I don't know abou the destroyers, but you should add to the depth problem in the torpedoes, tht if they are shalow and hit a wave they might deviate from course, and also that you are in a shaky tin can, with the correspoding effects to the aiming, speed calculations and to the crew, slow recharging, bad hydrohone detection, etc, that aren't well modelled either.

Ref

[Keelbuster]

Now I know that the stock game does not take into account the way rough seas effect torpedo depth keeping

SH3 doesn't model torpedo depth problems in bad weather. But then again it kinda does - ships bounce in bad weather, hence a keel shot can become a miss, or a waterline shot in heavy weather. It's not exactly a model of torpedo depth variability, but it kinda has the same effect.

Kb

[dize]

just recently i realised this too.

choppy sea, at 15ms, is praticly a shield to almost everything the allies can throw at you, surface vessel wise.
no destroyer can get a decent fix on me. if im detected, i can simply dive away, without using silent run or anything. they will never get more than one run at me.

after reading uboat killer by donald macintyre, i think that its quite well done. the book states how hard it was for the escorts to sail, yet combat an uboat, in very bad weather with high seas.

the prob is, that 15ms should be a weather extreme, but as the weather system works, it seems to be the standart "bad weather mode". i had my recent patrol completed. nov-okt 44 arpoud the british isles, and i had the 15ms, plus various stages of rain and fog, for the whole patrol. not a single notable improvement.

the second prob is that the same general diffcultys, should be applied fo rthe uboat. navigating, keeping depth, sitiuational awareness, collecting a firing solution, or even firing a torpedo straight, should be a hard, to impossible thing. i think it was a. werner, who stated in iron coffins, that a uboat would not risk to attack in very bad weather, since it was useless anyway.

[Sailor Steve]

Rough seas are bad for everyone. As mentioned before, torpedoes have real problems with heavy waves, unless you set them to run deep enough, and in real life that is usually too deep for even magnetics to work. Deck guns are useless, even for a destroyer.

On the other hand, moving waters make sonar and hydrophones less accurate, and for a destroyer to drop depth charges in heavy seas is extremely risky to the crew. When I served we didn't have depth charges any more, but I did spend half of a midwatch emptying bags of shredded documents over the fantail. I would wait by the aft superstructure door until the ship pitched tail-up, then make a dash for the fantail; grip the aft railing while the tail was down, water washing over my knees. When the tail was up again I'd dump the contents of the bag, then hang on again through the next tail-down cycle. Next time up, I'd run for the superstructure again. I went through that five or six times that night, starting at around 01:00. Funny thing is, the weather wasn't THAT bad. No way would they have us do that in really high waves; these probably weren't more than 2 meters high.

You can imagine what it would be like for a depth-charge crew. Or a deck gun crew.

[Dowly]

Again, I dont know how true is the 'Iron Coffins', but in the book most of the attacks they make happen in moderate to rough seas.

And slight OT, as reading the book I noticed that most of the attacks took place surfaced. And they could outrun the destroyers. I´ve tried this in SHIII multiple times with no luck. :nope:

[Heibges]

They might have been, had the u-boat(s) been able to find them in the first place. The ocean is a big place and the view from the conning tower is very limited.

Very true. Unfortunately, in every submarine sim since Silent Service, hydrophones are more effective than surface search radar.
Resisting the urge to do 10 sound checks a day, but just at dawn and dusk will greatly increase the level of realism in your careers.

By the looks of Dize's careers in his Sig, I would say that he patrols on the surface most of the time.

[Sailor Steve]

To know for sure we would first have to know what each author meant by "moderate to rough seas". Any sea too rough to man the guns or operate effectively on the surface would de facto be "rough seas"; but what was the actual sea state? Iron Coffins has been described as playing fast and loose with the facts. This doesn't mean it's wrong in this case, but how do you tell?

The top speed of any U-boat was 17-19 knots, so there is no way they could ever outrun a 36-knot destroyer. They were, however, faster than a 16-knot Flower class corvette. I'll have to look again, but I'm pretty sure Donald MacIntyre, in U-Boat Killer, said that at least one sub was cornered because the captain didn't know this and submerged when he could have run on the surface and been faster. If the author of Iron Coffins thought he could actually outrun a destroyer, he was wrong.

[Heibges]

The top speed of any U-boat was 17-19 knots, so there is no way they could ever outrun a 36-knot destroyer. They were, however, faster than a 16-knot Flower class corvette. I'll have to look again, but I'm pretty sure Donald MacIntyre, in U-Boat Killer, said that at least one sub was cornered because the captain didn't know this and submerged when he could have run on the surface and been faster. If the author of Iron Coffins thought he could actually outrun a destroyer, he was wrong.

I think it was the XO that didn't know and not the Captain. I think it was either Prien or Kretschmer. The Captain had a standing order that only he could order a diver during a surface attack, but the XO ordered a dive for some reason.

[Sailor Steve]

You're probably right. I'm not at home and can't look. I thought I remembered it being Prien or Kretschmer as well, but for the same reasons I didn't want to guess. I'm betting it was Prien, because I do know it was MacIntyre who captured Kretschmer, and I don't think he ever captained a corvette.

I'll know tonight.

[irish1958]

If you think rough weather is too easy, turn off stabilization in the options menu and play at 100% realism.
irish1958

[Dowly]

If you think rough weather is too easy, turn off stabilization in the options menu and play at 100% realism.
irish1958

Couple of patrols later, it´ll be as easy as with stabiliser turned on. ;)

[Ducimus]

You can charge in at flank speed with your periscope up and you will never be detected. I passed within 1000 meters of a destroyer and he just went happily chugging on by. :rotfl:




I think thats the wave factor coef in the sim.cfg file. The roughter the seas, the less he hears, you can adjust this. By default, in rough seash (15 kt winds most of the time), a destroyer can't hear squat tell you get within 1000 meters. Reduce how much waves take into account of his detection and he'll pick you up much further out. If i remeber correctly If you turn this variable off, ( 0 i beleive) he can hear you so much as fart from 6000 meters regardless of weather.

[Keelbuster]

And they could outrun the destroyers. I´ve tried this in SHIII multiple times with no luck. :nope:

Not sure how real it is, but with a VIIB, with two engine upgrades, you can pull 21kts, which can outrun armed trawlers. Does this count?

Kb

[Floater]

I've heard mention that a U-boat actually could outrun a DD in rough seas.

The reason is, a sub cuts directly through the waves due to its hull design, whereas a DD has to ride pretty much over the crests and down through the troughs. That slows a ship down.

[Dowly]

I've heard mention that a U-boat actually could outrun a DD in rough seas.

The reason is, a sub cuts directly through the waves due to its hull design, whereas a DD has to ride pretty much over the crests and down through the troughs. That slows a ship down.

I´ve heard that too. :up:

[rogerbo]

I just did finish a Book about the Scharnhorst, and in there they stated a few times that in rough See they had to slow down because the DD's did take to much damage by the See, so that is a clear indication that the DD's and also the BB's had the problems with the High See. It's not that they would not be able to run on higher Speed but that the Damage they took on the Gun Turrets and on the super Structure would inable them to engage in a Battle. There are some passages where they did write that they realy had to drop the speed to as low as 10 Knots. So if a DD can't catch you in high Sees i think that's realistic as a Sub has better chances to keep speed below the Weaves and a chasing DD would risk to Damage it self by the Hunt.

[Khayman]

I've heard mention that a U-boat actually could outrun a DD in rough seas.

I can't remember if it was Iron Coffins or one of my other books, but they outran a Destroyer in heavy seas. The author gave the explanation that the Destroyer rode up and down the waves, whereas the U-Boat sliced right through them. Just as you said.

As for firing in heavy seas, there's the segment in Iron Coffins when their boat surfaced in a raging hurricane - right in the middle of a convoy. The seas were so bad that neither side could fire. They dived and rode the storm out while feeling sorry for the poor sods in the convoy.

Also, in one of his patrol reports Endrass in U-46 said;

"June 6th 1941. Weather deteriorating. Storm force 9 to 11. Powerful seas engulf the boat. A tanker comes in sight. Even under the prevailing conditions an attack at short range may be successful. Decide to go for it. It is difficult to keep the boat at periscope depth."

He fired then couldn't see a thing through the periscope due to the heavy swell. When he did finally get a glimpse it was to see the ship coming straight for him. They got rammed but it only knocked out the persicopes and jammed the bridge hatch.

The fact that he said "Decide to go for it" shows that shooting in heavy seas was a bit of a lottery.