Spain goes bananas!!!

[The Avon Lady]

Be prepared for a massive new immigration wave (http://www.spainherald.com/3438.html)! :o

[TteFAboB]

The ETA probably just raised their popularity to record levels. :/\x:

[Abraham]

@ The Avon Lady:
You don't get it, don't you.
This is the beginning of a political and possible military crisis within NATO and tensions within the EU.
A decent period after this proposal has become law Spain will probably set up an Apes Liberation Organisation for the Liberation of Gibraltar; a Provisionairy Ape Government, a Revolutionairy Ape Council, the whole lot will follow... Britains position will be untenable, being caught between pressure from Spain in the North and Africa in the south.
Don't forget; Spain's final goal is to dominate Gibraltar, the liberation of its apes is just a political tool.

[The Avon Lady]

@ The Avon Lady:
You don't get it, don't you.
This is the beginning of a political and possible military crisis within NATO and tensions within the EU.
A decent period after this proposal has become law Spain will probably set up an Apes Liberation Organisation for the Liberation of Gibraltar; a Provisionairy Ape Government, a Revolutionairy Ape Council, the whole lot will follow... Britains position will be untenable, being caught between pressure from Spain in the North and Africa in the south.
Don't forget; Spain's final goal is to dominate Gibraltar, the liberation of its apes is just a political tool.
You mean.............................................. ...

................................... gorilla warfare? :o

[Abraham]

@ The Avon Lady:
You don't get it, don't you.
This is the beginning of a political and possible military crisis within NATO and tensions within the EU.
A decent period after this proposal has become law Spain will probably set up an Apes Liberation Organisation for the Liberation of Gibraltar; a Provisionairy Ape Government, a Revolutionairy Ape Council, the whole lot will follow... Britains position will be untenable, being caught between pressure from Spain in the North and Africa in the south.
Don't forget; Spain's final goal is to dominate Gibraltar, the liberation of its apes is just a political tool.
You mean.............................................. ...

................................... gorilla warfare? :o
Yassir, that is certainly a possibility... :stare:
It may be a long time before the Brits are out of the woods...

[mapuc]

Did anyone mention Planets of Apes?

Markus

[Polak]

Is it only me or are all left-wing politicians destroying the world?

[Onkel Neal]

Get your paws off me, you damned dirty apes!

[mapuc]

Is it only me or are all left-wing politicians destroying the world?

Yes and not only international, but also national. The left wing in Denmark, Sweden and Norway are giving away our countrie to the foreigner

Markus

[The Avon Lady]

Is it only me or are all left-wing politicians destroying the world?

Yes and not only international, but also national. The left wing in Denmark, Sweden and Norway are giving away our countrie to the foreigner
And they're hitting the academic institutions, too! :o

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2020/lg36754vp.jpg

[Polak]

Is it only me or are all left-wing politicians destroying the world?

Yes and not only international, but also national. The left wing in Denmark, Sweden and Norway are giving away our countrie to the foreigner

Markus


Så sant som det är sagt... :roll:
For the moment I'm living in Sweden, it really hurts my heart when I see what has happened to this country... The socialist government is to blame for all this, they are putting Sweden, and the real Swedes in danger. I am really grateful for what Sweden has given me, in return I'm planing to vote on Sverige Demokraterna, a not so popular party among foreigners.

[mapuc]

You too??

I also have decided that I will vote on SD and you know whats really funny many of the foreigner in my town will give them a vote

Markus

[Happy Times]

In Finland we dont yet have such a party but im sure it wont take long with current development :hmm: We might even see in the future scenes,often tought be part of Europes past. I predict riots, civil war, and instead of ethnic cleansing we will have cultural cleansing. Leaders trying to build utopia are really setting up a massive conflict. Europe in flames again. :(

[Skybird]

Looking parliamentary debates, I was convinced we already had that.

[Godalmighty83]

for gods sake noone tell them how much DNA we share with pigs.

[tycho102]

Tuesday, April 25, 2006
The Spanish Socialist Party will introduce a bill in the Congress of Deputies calling for "the immediate inclusion of (simians) in the category of persons, and that they be given the moral and legal protection that currently are only enjoyed by human beings." The PSOE's justification is that humans share 98.4% of our genes with chimpanzees, 97.7% with gorillas, and 96.4% with orangutans.

:doh: It ain't April Fools.

I would certainly like to see a lot of animals treated better than they are, for the SPCA does not currently invoke enough summary executions to suit me, but I don't really think equating animals with people is the best course. I'm mostly pragmatic, but I've never been to Spain, and so I cannot say that there is necessarily a "better" way to go about such a solution. I do believe this will have futher reaching consequences than they might (or might not) think at present.



Sounds like an absolute hoot. Can't wait for it to hit their judicial system. GO SPAIN!

[TLAM Strike]

Did anyone mention Planets of Apes?

Markus

[Troy McClure]The movie or the actual planet?[/Troy McClure]

[Fish]

Don't we share 90 % of our genes with worms? :hmm:

[Spoon 11th]

Is it only me or are all left-wing politicians destroying the world?

Yes and not only international, but also national. The left wing in Denmark, Sweden and Norway are giving away our countrie to the foreigner

Markus


Så sant som det är sagt... :roll:
For the moment I'm living in Sweden, it really hurts my heart when I see what has happened to this country... The socialist government is to blame for all this, they are putting Sweden, and the real Swedes in danger. I am really grateful for what Sweden has given me, in return I'm planing to vote on Sverige Demokraterna, a not so popular party among foreigners.
This is off topic, but how many muslims there are in Sweden? I've heard a number of 300,000.

This wikipedia page shows the demographics of islam and sweden is the only one of the listed countries that is missing the data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Islam

Is your government hiding the number or what? In finland that number of 20,000 muslims is only an estimate, since most muslims are not registered worshippers. If some one of you know the amount, please edit the wikipedia page and add the number.

[TLAM Strike]

for gods sake noone tell them how much DNA we share with pigs.

We better give Pigs rights if we want to get on the Tellarite's good side... if they have a good side... awww screw it lets eat all the pigs and be friends with the Andorians!
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1356/tellaritenew035fx.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/3296/archermeetsgral6wp.jpg
Cap. Archer: "You people are uglier than I remember!"

[Abraham]

Is it only me or are all left-wing politicians destroying the world?

Yes and not only international, but also national. The left wing in Denmark, Sweden and Norway are giving away our countrie to the foreigner
And they're hitting the academic institutions, too! :o

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2020/lg36754vp.jpgAllthough subsim.com takes a liberal look at the freedom of expression, I would like to urge you NOT to start an international incident by publishing cartoons that might be considered offensive to apes/students.

Abraham
:D

[Polak]

Is it only me or are all left-wing politicians destroying the world?

Yes and not only international, but also national. The left wing in Denmark, Sweden and Norway are giving away our countrie to the foreigner

Markus


Så sant som det är sagt... :roll:
For the moment I'm living in Sweden, it really hurts my heart when I see what has happened to this country... The socialist government is to blame for all this, they are putting Sweden, and the real Swedes in danger. I am really grateful for what Sweden has given me, in return I'm planing to vote on Sverige Demokraterna, a not so popular party among foreigners.
This is off topic, but how many muslims there are in Sweden? I've heard a number of 300,000.

This wikipedia page shows the demographics of islam and sweden is the only one of the listed countries that is missing the data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Islam

Is your government hiding the number or what? In finland that number of 20,000 muslims is only an estimate, since most muslims are not registered worshippers. If some one of you know the amount, please edit the wikipedia page and add the number.

I have heard numbers like that too, I personaly think that it's even bigger. My friend told me yesterday that the muslims in Sweden want to be calssefied as a minority people like the "Samer". Today when I was reading the newpaper I saw an article about the muslim community, they have gone so far that they want muslim law introduced in Sweden... Go democracy! :shifty:

[Skybird]

(...) they have gone so far that they want muslim law introduced in Sweden... Go democracy! :shifty:

Islam wants all, not one bit less. Give it a small finger, and it wants the hand, the arm, and the rest of your body, saying it has a right to demand it, in the name of it's equal rank (means: superiority) compared to other cultures. I do not tolerate neither that claim for "equal value", nor it's demands.

Europeans are too well-meaning to understand this. They think in too friendly terms and scales, are not used to a deep-rooted aggressiveness like this anymore. They are too civilized, too reasonable. There is no peace in Islam's understanding as long as Islam is "challenged" by something that is not itself (due to it'S selfglorification it feels challenged by the simple existence of all and everything that is not itself, simply because this non-Islamic quality is there). That there is something non-Islamic - no matter what - already is an offense that must be deleted by overcoming it and making it to submit, or destroy it. Coexistence there has only been when the other side was too strong to be overturned, or Islam changed into something that still cosndiered itself to be islam, but had nothing to do with the original Islam anymore. What they could not acchieved by military terms, now they try by demographic force, and by turning our own laws and princicples against us, taking benefit of the fact that these prionciples are founded on preconditions and cultural definitions that are not shared by Islam and thus that do not limit it'S ambitions (the non-existing separation between chru8ch and poltiics being one of the most important, and most destructive from a perspective of european constitutions). That is no peaceful attitude of mind, or a wish from the heart, but an enforced seize-firing. It only lasts as long as Islam has not found other ways and energies to continue it'S cultural conquest. The crusades it holds the others guilty of - it is practising itself exessively, since the times of Muhammad. You Swedes would be better off if you clean these demands off the table completely, once and for all, without compromise.

High time that Europeans are no longer afraid to use the phrase "clash of civilizations", but demand such a clash from their leaderships. The enemy is crystal-clear, and he definetly is no friend of ours, and never has been in the last thosuands years, and longer.

Need a cold beer to get down again. If you ever see me laying dead on the floor, spare the cents to call the ambulance, but tell my chorpus a story like this, and see me standing up alive and in anger again within seconds! :)

[Polak]

(...) they have gone so far that they want muslim law introduced in Sweden... Go democracy! :shifty:

Islam wants all, not one bit less. Give it a small finger, and it wants the hand, the arm, and the rest of your body, saying it has a right to demand it, in the name of it's equal rank (means: superiority) compared to other cultures. I do not tolerate neither that claim for "equal value", nor it's demands.

Europeans are too well-meaning to understand this. They think in too friendly terms and scales, are not used to a deep-rooted aggressiveness like this anymore. They are too civilized, too reasonable. There is no peace in Islam's understanding as long as Islam is "challenged" by something that is not itself (due to it'S selfglorification it feels challenged by the simple existence of all and everything that is not itself, simply because this non-Islamic quality is there). That there is something non-Islamic - no matter what - already is an offense that must be deleted by overcoming it and making it to submit, or destroy it. Coexistence there has only been when the other side was too strong to be overturned, or Islam changed into something that still cosndiered itself to be islam, but had nothing to do with the original Islam anymore. What they could not acchieved by military terms, now they try by demographic force, and by turning our own laws and princicples against us, taking benefit of the fact that these prionciples are founded on preconditions and cultural definitions that are not shared by Islam and thus that do not limit it'S ambitions (the non-existing separation between chru8ch and poltiics being one of the most important, and most destructive from a perspective of european constitutions). That is no peaceful attitude of mind, or a wish from the heart, but an enforced seize-firing. It only lasts as long as Islam has not found other ways and energies to continue it'S cultural conquest. The crusades it holds the others guilty of - it is practising itself exessively, since the times of Muhammad. You Swedes would be better off if you clean these demands off the table completely, once and for all, without compromise.

High time that Europeans are no longer afraid to use the phrase "clash of civilizations", but demand such a clash from their leaderships. The enemy is crystal-clear, and he definetly is no friend of ours, and never has been in the last thosuands years, and longer.

Need a cold beer to get down again. If you ever see me laying dead on the floor, spare the cents to call the ambulance, but tell my chorpus a story like this, and see me standing up alive and in anger again within seconds! :)

:D :up:


One good thing is that the Swedish integration minister is not caving in to their demands. But you never know what the Swedish communist pary and the enviormental party will do about this. I really think that they are stupid enough to support the muslims. I am glad that we dont have problems like this back in Poland. :yep:

[Happy Times]

I have heard numbers like that too, I personaly think that it's even bigger. My friend told me yesterday that the muslims in Sweden want to be calssefied as a minority people like the "Samer". Today when I was reading the newpaper I saw an article about the muslim community, they have gone so far that they want muslim law introduced in Sweden... Go democracy! So there could be more than there are Finns in Sweden? A fast development have to say :hmm:

[Abraham]

First: this thread is seriously off topic.

Second: Skybird should take that cold beer and not be so pessimistic about the "clash of cultures" with Islam.

Third: we should all stop generalising Muslims and Islam.

In my opinion the "clash of cultures" is more a clash between Western - if not global - modernity - which by the way includes millions of self-proclaimed Muslims - and Medieval backwardness, which includes people of all religions, including - yes - many fundamental Muslims.
And the clash is about this:
The Muslim world is not really doing well, to put things mildly. It is characterized by corrupt undemocratic regimes, low levels of education, inequality between the sexes, lack of freedom and - in general - a poor economy that shows no steady growth.
When Muslims come to Europe they find - in general - a modern, highly develloped, democratic society, with constitutional rights for all its citizens, equality between sexes, freedom of religion, which shows compassion for the poor, the sick and the old.

That is the cultural shock and it's for them to cope with it.
Most recognise our society and our Western values as superior and support their new society, in order to profit from its rights and freedom. A minority doesn't. They do have a problem. But that is certainly not a problem of the whole Muslim community, but of a small and uncertain minority that has been shocked and made uncertain by the difference between the Muslim world and modernity.

Let's please keep our liberal society intact. Its the strongest weapon in a fight that we don't want, but fundamental Islam needs in order not to go down.
Instead of "fighting" the Muslim community we should actively support those Muslims, that integrate and accept our cultural values. We should show Muslims that thát's the way to reach a better future here in the West...

I believe Islam will have to revive and modernise within 10 or 20 years or become (again) the backward religion of the economical and cultural backward region of the world.
I bet Islam will lose 90% of its support in the West within a generation if it doesn't.
And I see more and more opposition from within the Muslim community itself against fundamentalists.
That's what's happening in Holland at least...

Let's be on guard, not against Muslims in general, but against Muslims that don't accept our culture and our values.

In the mean time we should all have a beer and chill out. :()1:

[Skybird]

That is exactly the attitude of Europe and Germany since several decades.

Islam has turned stronger, has revived it'S ambitions to become a more powerful player in the West, and has set up mutiple times as many players in Western countries since then. exactly because of this attitude and argumentation.

Obviously this does not tell you anything.

Islam sees itself as the end, as the fulfillment of all history there is. You talk of 20 years, or a generation, in an optimistic way beyond reason, in ignorration of over oinethousand years of history. I must not hesitate a second to know whom of you two will have the longer breath.

But I award you the EU medal for good intentions.

[Abraham]

That is exactly the attitude of Europe and Germany since several decades.
Not the Dutch attitude. That was one of promoting multi-culturalism and condoning Medieval behaviour as equal to our Western values...

Islam has turned stronger, has revived it'S ambitions to become a more powerful player in the West, and has set up mutiple times as many players in Western countries since then. exactly because of this attitude and argumentation.
I conceive Islam as weaker, even desperate in certain aspects...

Islam sees itself as the end, as the fulfillment of all history there is. You talk of 20 years, or a generation, in an optimistic way beyond reason, in ignorration of over oinethousand years of history. I must not hesitate a second to know whom of you two will have the longer breath.
Don't say such unfriendly things about me, we're on the same side! We both believe in the superiority of this Judeo-Christian heritage and its unique cultural and political historic development through the Renaissance, the Reformation and the Enlightment.
I have read your files on Islam. I find them a source of valid information. But you have become too pessimistic in the proces of studying Islam.

Islam is actually on the way back. Islam goes for quantity, not for quality, Islam can nowhere build a well-functioning modern society. We are living in a world of modern nation-states; Islam has no concept of the modern nation-state! We are living in a global economic society; productivity in Muslim countries is lower than in most - former - third world countries!
Granted, there are a couple of hundred, perhaps thousand, Muslim fanatics who are willing to blow themself up in order to establish a orthodox Muslim society in Western Europe. But you can never establish a change in society by blowing yourself up and wreak destruction.
Is America stronger or weaker after Sept. 11th 2001? Did Britain give in after the June bombings of last year? The net effect of extreme Muslim terrorism is zero. Doesn't bring their Islamic society any closer, on the contrary; people in the West like you and me are far more alert...

But I award you the EU medal for good intentions.
Thanks, I am honoured and will proudly accept it. I think good intentions and a liberal society will make the difference.
:up:

[Skybird]

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub501F42F1AA064C4CB17DF1C38AC00196/Doc~E5D5ACCF2AEA347339F61E5271E32202A~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html

A big story in Germany currently. Once again, it's not the first time. We had several of such incidents in Germany in recent years.

these attempts to challenge German cultural habits and values are not coincidental, but are systematical efforts to make them give ground. They receive all support needed by Islamic groups and organizations. Fees for lawyers for example are paid by them. Socalled moderate Muslims are remarkably quite about such things. A small - a very small demo here, some halöf-heartly press conference there - but no active deeds, no binding self-obligation to deal with these "extremists" by themselves. I still wait for Muslim communities to fully cooperate with police and Verfassungsschutz when it comes to terror-suspects hiding in the middle of their communities. "They are Muslims", is their excuse if reduced to the essence of defending statements.

we have a saying here: "mitgefangen, mitgehangen", if the dictionary is right it compares to "fly with the crows, get shot with the crows." One who knows that aggressive propagators or criminal offenders or terrorists are hiding under his name and does not take active measures to get rid of these, cooperating with those who are after these retarded breeds, is as suspicious and guilty as those he indirectly protects.

Such things like with the two burka-wearing girls happen on a regular basis in Germany now - fundamentalists who want to enforce their entrance into public service, especially eduaction and schools, gaining influental püositions were they can heolp the spreading and implementing of islamic culture and laws (!) in the state, and in the society. It is a silent invasion by a hostile culture aiming at conquering ours and deleting it, a soundless war going on. It is about wearing-out resistance of public opinion agai8nst Islam. It'S abolut raising misleading impressions on how harmless and peaceloving and tolerant Islam is. It's the systematical testing of how far they can go (usually each time a little bit farther). Usually it can be proven that the financial support fto bring such cases to the courts is coming fromIslmic organisation, in this time the very subversive King-Fahd-Academy in Germany which is under close observation of the Verfassungsschutz (they want to close it down, but politicians do not listen to their experts...). at least one of the two families has close connections to this hostile institution that is enemy to our constitution (it should be closed and destroyed, imo).

you agree on the superiority of the Western heritage, but that perceived superiority makes you lull and dull - you think you are so superior that you can tame Islam. I tell you, you can't. The Western culture is hollowing out itself from within (materialism, oligarchy-building, oil-dependence, heavy lobbying). This is what makes us not strong enough to tame Islam, but what makes us more and more vulnerable to Islam. In Europe Islam has grown in influence and power and acceptance since decades, there can be no serious doubt about it. It is irresponsible to claim that in Europe Islam is weakening and desperate, as you put it. It has secured the initiave as a matter of fact, and more and more authorities of Europe are giving ground to them.

Look at Turkey. People considered Fundamental Islam to be gone there. now it is back again, stronger than before since WWII. fundamntal Islam ids forming it'S government. No way I would conclude that Attaturk was successful. He was too tame. Think of that - Attaturk - too tame...?

You are a very dangerous man due to your naivity, Abraham, and you even do not realize it and declare it a cultural or political virtue. That is if someone has fought against a pneumonia, and a flu, and a sopring headache, and concludes by that that his immune system is strong enough to cope with Ebola. But our constitutional orders are almost defenseless against the Islamic combination of religion and politics.

there is only one Islam - that has always been, since 14 centuries, the fighting, expanding, aggressive, non-coexisting and intolerant Islam. That's what it is, and nothing else. It has brought mankind more violence and war and military conquest than any ideology, and empire, and religion, any culture. It's the mindset of a predatory, murderish, greedy beduin with an inflationary ego. Keep that in mind, and also that you undertake a timewarp of over thousand years each time you deal with it.

You are to well-meaning, Abraham. and this is what makes you a threat to your own people: you think reason will sort this thing out, maybe becasue you are a lawyer and depend on words and rules being followed.

But what role played reason in the medieval...??? This is a cultural war going on, nothing else. And we are loosing, thanks to active help of well-meaning Westerners like you. We do need people here that are willing to take a risk in making a clear stand, that draw a clear line in the sand and tell Islam: "Until here - and not one da,n inch beyond, else I flatten you withoiut further warning." That is proven to be the only thing that Islam ever has understood throughout it's history, and brought it's expansion to a halt: overwhelming opposing power and superiority, and rejection of compromise.

[Iceman]

ummm....I love them damn dirty apes....lmao.... :rotfl:
http://karatethejapaneseway.com/photos/planet_of_the_apes_02.jpg

[Abraham]

ummm....I love them damn dirty apes....lmao.... :rotfl:
http://karatethejapaneseway.com/photos/planet_of_the_apes_02.jpg
Hmmm, is that a male or a female (ape), Iceman?

If it's a male ape, I find it a dirty picture...
Oops!
:rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

That is exactly the attitude of Europe and Germany since several decades.
Not the Dutch attitude. That was one of promoting multi-culturalism and condoning Medieval behaviour as equal to our Western values...
Islam has turned stronger, has revived it'S ambitions to become a more powerful player in the West, and has set up mutiple times as many players in Western countries since then. exactly because of this attitude and argumentation.
I conceive Islam as weaker, even desperate in certain aspects...
Hirsi Ali, The Hunted (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011247.php).

You are living in a little Dutch bubble, Abraham.

[Abraham]

That is exactly the attitude of Europe and Germany since several decades.
Not the Dutch attitude. That was one of promoting multi-culturalism and condoning Medieval behaviour as equal to our Western values...
Islam has turned stronger, has revived it'S ambitions to become a more powerful player in the West, and has set up mutiple times as many players in Western countries since then. exactly because of this attitude and argumentation.
I conceive Islam as weaker, even desperate in certain aspects...
Hirsi Ali, The Hunted (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011247.php).

You are living in a little Dutch bubble, Abraham.
I doubt it, but if so, I'm sure I know my bubble pretty well.

The reference link to Hirshi Ali - whom I admire for her courage but less for her tact - is completely missing the point, and it's title: "Hirsi Ali, The Hunted" better fits a Hollywood movie than a serious discussion of a court decision. This case was not against Hirshi Ali, but against the Government, who has provided her with a secure living place, which resulted in - amougst other things - a serious drop in the value of the real estate of her neighbours. The Court wants the Government to come up with a different solution. The Minister of Justice (not Hirshi Ali!) is considering an appeal. All this is probably a matter of money between the appartment owners and the Government

As a general advise: I would be very reluctant to second guess court decisions that I haven't read, in court cases that I don't know, in countries where I don't live...
Well, that's just me, being a lawyer.
:D

[The Avon Lady]

As a general advise: I would be very reluctant to second guess court decisions that I haven't read, in court cases that I don't know, in countries where I don't live...
Well, that's just me, being a lawyer.
:D
Had you followed the link to the source blog (http://www.peaktalk.com/) of the full article (http://www.peaktalk.com/archives/002165.php) and looked up who the author is (http://www.peaktalk.com/about.php), you would find:

Pieter Dorsman studied law and obtained a Master’s degree in Economic and Social History at the Erasmus Universiteit in Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

And it's not the court's decision that is so paramount as is the fact that a situation exists - for quite some time already - that is worsening step by step and there will be more and more victims as Islamic influences continue to dictate what is and isn't safe to say, believe, write or draw.

[Hitman]

Returning to the initial topic: If one of the main concerns of our current government is the apes, go figure how they manage the rest of politics :hmm: And the worst thing is that there is no alternative...the other major party is equally bad :nope: . God, how I hate politicians.... :down:

Why do we always have to do such stupid things? I sometimes feel really ashamed of being spaniard :shifty:

[Abraham]

As a general advise: I would be very reluctant to second guess court decisions that I haven't read, in court cases that I don't know, in countries where I don't live...
Well, that's just me, being a lawyer.
:D
Had you followed the link to the source blog (http://www.peaktalk.com/) of the full article (http://www.peaktalk.com/archives/002165.php) and looked up who the author is (http://www.peaktalk.com/about.php), you would find:

Pieter Dorsman studied law and obtained a Master’s degree in Economic and Social History at the Erasmus Universiteit in Rotterdam, The Netherlands.


And it's not the court's decision that is so paramount as is the fact that a situation exists - for quite some time already - that is worsening step by step and there will be more and more victims as Islamic influences continue to dictate what is and isn't safe to say, believe, write or draw.Touché TAV!
:D
Still, the case is about the Government giving protection and Hirshi Ali's neighbours suffering nasty consequences.
Everybody has the right to bring a case to court, even the neighbours of Hirshi Ali.

[Abraham]

Since this subject is discussed again by Mapuc on another thread, I would like to add some info that might lead to a better understanding of the situation around the protection of Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirshi Ali.

Holland has until recently been a very transparant and open society. Until the murder of Pim Fortuyn (May 6th, 2002) the Prime Minister and several of his collegue Cabinet members used to bike from their appartments in The Hague to their ministries. Personal protection was - almost - non-existent. The murder of Fortuyn changed all this for politicians, the murder of Theo van Gogh did the same for the two members of Parliament Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirshi Ali, who were threatened by Muslim extremists. This threat was taken so serious and our country so ill-prepared for such a situation that no "safe houses" existed from where they could continue their parliamentary duties in safety. They were housed in military complexes in Amsterdam and Zeist for months. In the meantime the Government bought some appartments for them and their security detail. Since personal protection works with circles or "bubbles" of ever thightly security, I can imagine that this protection has a severe impact on the direct neighbours.

By the way: Lately opinion makers, like some writers and journalists and party leaders in Parliament also get extra personal protection. We are slowly catching up with reality - but we miss the informality which was a characteristic of Dutch politics...

[The Avon Lady]

Since personal protection works with circles or "bubbles" of ever thightly security, I can imagine that this protection has a severe impact on the direct neighbours.
You are stating the obvious.

But you just now did a better job than the Peatalk blog in explaining what's really wrong here.

Holland has become frightened. It started with the threats to this or that politician or writer for what they say and believe. It won't stop there.

It will stop here (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20338_Muammar_Live). And he's not the silly old fool you think he is. :nope:

[Abraham]

Since personal protection works with circles or "bubbles" of ever thightly security, I can imagine that this protection has a severe impact on the direct neighbours.
You are stating the obvious.

But you just now did a better job than the Peatalk blog in explaining what's really wrong here.

Holland has become frightened. It started with the threats to this or that politician or writer for what they say and believe. It won't stop there.

It will stop here (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20338_Muammar_Live). And he's not the silly old fool you think he is. :nope:
I am sincerely convinced that most "muslims" in Holland would resent if not resist an Islam supremacy in Europe, at least in The Netherlands. They realise that Europe would go down the drain economically within a generation and where would they go then?
The situation in Holland is that no allochtone immigrant from any Muslim counrty wants to go back (it has been tried by the government with subsidies). They just want to live a better life here and become part of our society.
True, there is a substantial minority that doesn't adapt well, but mind you, it is a big step from a Medieval tribal desert society into Western Europe. The Dutch government is partly to blame because we never put any preconditions on participating in (and profiting from) our society. This minority certainly causes a (social) problem because they are too much traditionalists and conservatives to fit in our society.
Then there are the young umemployed muslims who behave asocial and commit petty crimes. This is partly an age problem and partly a social problem.
Then there is a small group of religious fundamentalists olf which an even smaller minority might turn to extremism. These cause a security problem -which seems to be pretty well under control at the moment.

So while a substantial number of muslims causes problems we are certainly talking about a minority. Furthermore, while most of these problems are somehow related to their religion (Islam), the problems themselves are diverse.

When we are talking about the security problem in connection to terrorism or the 'Jihad' against Western values, we're actually talking about quite a small group, which might spread destruction, but is too weak to bring changes to a society.

I certainly don't underestimate the danger of muslim terrorism, but a despise the generalisations of all 'muslims' as a solid bloc of dangerous creatures as is so often suggested in this forum.
Some are, the great majority is not.

:cool:
Through black shades, even a Polar Bear will look like a Grissly.

[Skybird]

I am sincerely convinced that most "muslims" in Holland would resent if not resist an Islam supremacy in Europe, at least in The Netherlands. They realise that Europe would go down the drain economically within a generation and where would they go then?

Actually, the argument of pro-Islamic lobyists in politics and economics are especially pointing at this: that Europe cannot survive economically if we DO NOT import Islam. That's why our so-called elites are propagating that "we must need to want Islam". One chooses this path, because that we must chnage things is obvious, but one does want to adress problems in a way so that we must not change our exessive life-styles - provinding it is a very interest-heavy business for certain economical circles who want to stick to it even at the cost of having Islam.

another reason of course is the interest of certain persons to bypass democracy - by having Islam present and pushing society towards a more totalitarian mindset, and the mental acceptance of it. these anti-democrats are hindered in their ambitions to have an obedient people to play with. These are the people that are the bone of the process that turns a democracy sooner or later into oligarchy - becasue they think they know it all so much better and thus should not be hindred by votes of the majority opinion.

And lastly the church: there are circles that want to have back the powerful church, and the Christian "Gottesstaat". They think if they embrace Islam and let it prepare the road for that, later the church could get rid of this ally, and have the harvest of a more obedient public and authority-listening people for itself. Problem is they do not understand that they are very ill-equipped to get rid of Islam again once it has becomne strong enough to influence the society into that direction far enough. Instead it will be the church being overturned. They overestimate themselves, and that chruches are empty, while mosques pop up everywhere like mushrroms in autumn doesn't tell them anything. Idiots.

I could also rasie a consiracy theory, that there is a hidden organization or leader that is leading europe's people into a conflict-heavy situation that is testing their sense of survival and will force them to go develoepe lost strengths and virtues again if they want to survive this "test". That way preparing for a rennaissance of the values and philosophical attitude of the enligthenment. - but how could one assume there is someone in europe clever enough to successfully play such a dangerous game :D Maybe I have red too much Frank Herbert (Dune). :lol:

"So while a substantial number of muslims causes problems we are certainly talking about a minority."

Really? A majority may not do deeds that are defined as active terrorism or active missionizing - but their simple presence is helping to spread Islam and thus already is a risk. And that is a problem indeed. not too mention that these people mostly do nothing to actively fight against what people like your consider to be the fundamental or extremist tradition of Islam (you know I say that historically such a difference does not exist and that the term "fundamentalism" is a Western folly, deriving from the times of violant opposition to European imperialism in northwestern Africa).

Take a guy like Konovalov, for example. I like him, but not what he claims to represent. He certainly does not help to overturn Western constitutions, or will not commit crimes, or propagating sharia. He has been raised in Western traditions, and his thinking patterns reflect Western way of thinking. But he thinks of himself of being a Muslim, for whatever a reason. By that he strengthens that faction by a number of one. The demand to raise the acceptance towards Islam, and accept it's demands (that are hidden behind the freedom of religion, although that automatically imply massive political demands, since Islam does not make a differernce between the two), is a little bit more powerful, has a slighty bigger argument of numbers, due to his presence here. It's a dilemma.

I also referred to the example that has repated itself in history time and again and that you constantly ignore: that "moderate" Muslim communities, during an introduction phase where Islam is being sown out in a new cultural environment, tend to be calm and harmless, but that Islam unavoidably tends to expand and grow, and when a "critical mass", a certain number level has been reached, the true, you would say: the "extremist" Islam tends to raise in proportion, and then moderate Islam tends to submit under this process. I have written about that longer time ago, and in that essays, too. You cannot name a single muslim country today where they have been successful in getting true Islam under control - sometimes it withdraw for a while, like in Turkey, or it slept in the hidden, like in the former Soviet provinces, but nowhere it had been overcome - it always has a comeback sooner or later, everywhere. Sooner or later even a moderate community starts to press for Islam becoming the dominant paradigm. It's an inner self-dynamic Islam cannot escape. People like you constantly ignore this, and that is suicidal. You think you are so superior and strong that you can tame these processes. But as I say time and again: YOU CANNOT TAME ISLAM .

[Wim Libaers]

I am sincerely convinced that most "muslims" in Holland would resent if not resist an Islam supremacy in Europe, at least in The Netherlands. They realise that Europe would go down the drain economically within a generation and where would they go then?

Please clarify: if they realise that Islam has this negative effect, why do they still want to be muslims?

[Skybird]

:lol: Good one!

[Abraham]

@ Wim Libaers:
Why is Holland (still!) called 'Calvinistic' although there was never a majority of Calvinists and now there is only a small minority of Calvinists?
Answer: even if you lose your faith, you will still be influenced by the cultural tangent of it for more than one generation. And being a "muslim" is even more a way of life than a 'living' faith.
Give'm a few generations, please...

[The Avon Lady]

Give'm a few generations, please...
Can you linkl me to a statistical trends analysis that shows whether Muslims in Europe have become more or less committed to Islam or identified with it over the past 2 decades?

[Skybird]

Abraham,

"Few generations?" Shouldn't have several centuries already been enough, like we had in Europe? That Islam has not changed and developed since one and a half millenium, close to; that it's message is that it is the climax and fullfilment and thus the end of all emerging history and civilization, and that it cannot get anything better than Islam was, is and always will be, and that developement and change almost is forbidden, any traditions and sciences aiming at that are penalized, that the minds that emerged over the centuries that showed real creativity and genius were killed or ended in prison cells, and it has no tradition that is able to really challenge the interpretation of the Sunni orthodoxy, since a thiusand years - all this doesn't tell you anything? What kind of missing sense of realism are you suffering from? "Europe is so great, what they can'T do themselves, we can do for them in just a few generations, by our simple and formidable self-example?" Man, you are really dangerous.

Few generations... how many more...??? Give them as much time as you want: they will not use it to adopt to European traditions, but to change Europe to become like themselves. That is Islam, it's essence, core and inner nature. It has a long history that accumulated the experience how to make sure that one does not change. It is a professional in not chnaging. Whatever you are talking about - it is not Islam. You said some days ago we "were on the same side". That is not true. you are actively defending the Islamization of Europe, and declare the patience to let it happen a virtue. On the same side? We couldn't be more apart.

Peace in Islam: overcoming everything that is not Islam, by that wiping out all opposition so that no more challenges and thus conflicts could arise, becasue there is nothing left that is not Islam - that is the concept of peace in Islam, and only that. You must realize that this is the mindset of an unscrupelous godfather who abused supernatural arguments to justify his own deeds and greedy cravings for more and more. It is the superstitious self-justification of a desert bandit and gangster, who accepted only one law: his own, and Islam, better: Quran, being his own law and creation reflects this. Let the Medellin cartell have free trade with Europe, and in some generations it will adopt to the constitutions and legal codes of European history, or what...???

Your demands are irresponsible.


AL,

if you scan German medias you will find regular news and statistics indicating or clearly showing that with the young Generations of Albanians and Turks we have, the trends you are asking about do not exist, but quite the opposite: a growing nationalism amongst young Turks (in favour of a "Great Turkey", not Germany), and a radicalisation in following Islam'S rules. there are those that stick to German habits and rules, that is true, and these are not the problem. but I cannot see them to be a majoirty, or a growing faction. they are a minority, I think, and I don't see them to become the model for the integrated Europeanized Muslim of the feature. The cutting back of the social welfare state also will reduce the material benefits for m,uslim emigrants, making it more difficult for them after arrival. So, that attractor to become europeanized and assimilated in the hosting nation is loosing in importance, too.

But I know that your question was rethorical only. As much as we disagree on many things, concerning the chances of Europe to escape Islamization we are of probably same opinions. It's just that it soemtimes kills my nerves to talk against human walls that without need have decided to stop thinking, mistaking their hopes for a better future with the realistic perception of the past and the present. So many people let Europe down - and claim the best of intentions for doing so, and always have well-meaning excuses so that you cannot attack them, and their irrational follies are bypassing historical or present reality.

[The Avon Lady]

As much as we disagree on many things, concerning the chances of Europe to escape Islamization we are of probably same opinions.
Unfortunately, very much so. :yep:

[mapuc]

If you only knew, how many of yours fellow neighbours in Europe and not to forget the rest of the world that's so tired of this muslim invasion and theirs behavior and the government, who seems to do.....nothing

Markus

[Wim Libaers]

...a growing nationalism amongst young Turks (in favour of a "Great Turkey", not Germany),...

The new name of the EU?

It's just that it soemtimes kills my nerves to talk against human walls that without need have decided to stop thinking, mistaking their hopes for a better future with the realistic perception of the past and the present. So many people let Europe down - and claim the best of intentions for doing so, and always have well-meaning excuses so that you cannot attack them, and their irrational follies are bypassing historical or present reality.

Isn't that the normal and expected reaction that many people will have when confronted with very bad news?

Regarding the last part:

Noble intentions are a poor excuse for
stupid action. Man is the only species that
calls some suicidal actions “noble.” The rest
of creation knows better.
— Garrett Hardin

[Abraham]

@ Skybird:
I owe you a decent answer on your postings of May 3rd and May 4th.
Actually I prepared one. A long and thoughtfull reply in which I on the one hand praised you for your knowledge of the history of Islam, but on the other hand fiercely and succesfully defended my point of view.
You would have been forced to agree with me, had not a server problem at subsim.com caused my extensive posting to disintegrate in the virtual omniverse. First I kept looking for my posting everywhere on the site, like a little boy who had lost his football and is looking at places he knows he won't find it, but it was really gone.
You can imagine my frustration; I remember that the same thing happened to you a year or so ago during one of our great debates.

I am completely demotivated to write the whole story again, so you have to accept that I had a real good, balanced and convincing answer.
I hope you - and The Avon Lady - can live with that conviction!
:D

[TteFAboB]

Imagine if the real world worked like that:

"Mr. Clinton, did you or did you not had sexual relations with Mrs. Monica Lewinsky?"

...
...
...

"You know what, I had prepared a long and convincing answer to prove I did not had sexual relations with Mrs. Lewinsky, and it was so good you'd be forced to believe me, no matter what you think right now, but my dog ate it, so, you'll just have to live with that conviction."

:rotfl:

[Abraham]

Imagine if the real world worked like that:

"Mr. Clinton, did you or did you not had sexual relations with Mrs. Monica Lewinsky?"

...
...
...

"You know what, I had prepared a long and convincing answer to prove I did not had sexual relations with Mrs. Lewinsky, and it was so good you'd be forced to believe me, no matter what you think right now, but my dog ate it, so, you'll just have to live with that conviction."

:rotfl:
On the one hand you're right, but then, I don't know wether Clinton had problems with his 'server', but Subsim.com certainly has...
And I am far more trustworthy than Clinton. I am sure all of you will believe me on face value if I tell you that honestly I had no sex with that woman, miss Lewinsky.
:D

[Wim Libaers]

On the one hand you're right, but then, I don't know wether Clinton had problems with his 'server', but Subsim.com certainly has...
And I am far more trustworthy than Clinton. I am sure all of you will believe me on face value if I tell you that honestly I had no sex with that woman, miss Lewinsky.
:D

So how did that stain get on the dress, if it wasn't you? Dirty tactics Abraham, doing that and then trying to blame Clinton!