Help with escaping DD escorts in IXC

[Aismov]

So it is Dec. 1944 and I'm on a long distance patrol in the Carribean in my IXC when I pick up a enemy task force of DD escorts and a small carrier. I managed to sneak in and sink the escort carrier, but then the problem started. No matter what I do, how many decoys I use, how deep I dive, how silent I run I simply cannot shake this one DD.

I did a forum search and from what I was able to read I guess DD escorts get insanely capable at detecting and DCing you in 1944. I tested this by using the outside camera and noticed that even at 200+ meters with the escort just behind me if I go hard port/starboard the escort somehow knows immedialty which way my boat is turning and will follow my movements and DC me with insane depth accuracy.


Any tips on how to avoid these guys? Its getting a bit silly that they can detect me when I am silent running @ 220m and have deployed a semi-circle of sonar decoys. Oh I am also playing the Vanilla version of the game modded only with a few "eye candy" mods (wake mod, harbor mod and smoke mod).

[BigBadVuk]

Just 1 tip:Dont be detected.... :yep:

[Tonnage_Ace]

my advice is too download and install the GW mod and it's patch to version 1.1. It limits the amount of uber destroyers patrolling the seas by limiting the ones with experienced crews. Much more realistic in that most of the destroyers lurking out there will only have newby or standard crews manning the boat. SH3 Commander 2.5 is also a good alternative as it has random thermal layers, where you can hide in them if you can find out what depth they are located at. Every subsequent patrol, the depth that the thermal layer is located in will change.

My other recomendation is that going at silent running only sets the speed at ahead slow, or 3 knots. You need to go slower than that to escape silently, move at 1 knot and you'll notice a difference, even with a largely stock game.

[VonHelsching]

So it is Dec. 1944 and I'm on a long distance patrol in the Carribean in my IXC when I pick up a enemy task force of DD escorts and a small carrier. I managed to sneak in and sink the escort carrier, but then the problem started. No matter what I do, how many decoys I use, how deep I dive, how silent I run I simply cannot shake this one DD.

I did a forum search and from what I was able to read I guess DD escorts get insanely capable at detecting and DCing you in 1944. I tested this by using the outside camera and noticed that even at 200+ meters with the escort just behind me if I go hard port/starboard the escort somehow knows immedialty which way my boat is turning and will follow my movements and DC me with insane depth accuracy.


Any tips on how to avoid these guys? Its getting a bit silly that they can detect me when I am silent running @ 220m and have deployed a semi-circle of sonar decoys. Oh I am also playing the Vanilla version of the game modded only with a few "eye candy" mods (wake mod, harbor mod and smoke mod).

FYI, Harbour Traffic *is not* eye candy. It keeps the scripted layer of the Game. The last version "Unified Campaign", it's actually a Campaign.

My best advice for shaking diffucult DDs:

Alternative 1 (risky): Stay in periscope depth and sink it.

Alternative 2 : Dive @ 60-80 m and every 1,5 minute real time change your depth and heading slightly (depth +/- 10 m and deating 10-15 degrees). Your "escape speed" gains almost 25% with this technique. When the DD is on it's attack run hit flank for 20 seconts, then again slow (and silent).

[Tonnage_Ace]

Hey VonHelsching, can you use the Unified Campaign with the updated 1.1 version of GW? I mean if I enable the mods like so:

GW ver 1.0
Gw ver 1.1
Unified Campaign for GW

[Keelbuster]

I simply cannot shake this one DD.


If you can't escape him, you can at least run him out of ammo. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I once had an uber escort after me, and unliike the other escorts he didn't fall for the decoys and kept on me. Luckily, I was in a XXI, and when he went into his attack run, my flank run would get me some major distance (even outrun him!). But the IXC is so sluggish that it would be hard to achieve that. For that reason I stick with VII, for maneuvering, and rushing in evasion.

Finally, as was mentioned by VonHelsching, you may finally snap and go back to PD and try to take him out. I've snapped before. It never saved me, but it feels better to die hard rather than being crushed while slinking along at 200m.

Kb

[Aismov]

I haven't loaded up my save again but I think I'll first give the 1 kt escape idea a shot with slight depth and course adjustments and see if that helps. Not sure since the guy is pinging me like crazy and he seems to not fall for even multiple decoys.
If that fails I know I just happen to have one seeker torpedo in (aft) Tube 5 so I'm thinking I might try a quick surface and then crashdive back down and remain at flank so escort is forced to keep speed up and hopefully the seeker will at least disable him.

Thanks for all the help!

[VonHelsching]

Hey VonHelsching, can you use the Unified Campaign with the updated 1.1 version of GW? I mean if I enable the mods like so:

GW ver 1.0
Gw ver 1.1
Unified Campaign for GW

Yes, Ace. Exactly like that. :hmm: Or not?

I'll check the files and get back to this post. GW 1.1 might have a little more updated scripted layer (campaign). No major differences though.

[Aismov]

Hmm... so I gave pretty much everything a shot and no dice. Its actually a bit silly. I drop decoys and try to shake DDs by drifting slowly at 1kt, always turning on to slow for a few seconds to get back to 1 kt and then shut off again for silent running and these guys are still able to drop DC's right on my head. I looked a bit with the external camera and even when I had my engines off (and had decoys in the area) they would launch DC only where my sub exactly was.


Call me crazy but this is getting absurd. If they DC'ed the general area I wouldn't mind the challenge but this is pushing it when they will shoot a tight grouping of DCs within 1-2m of my silent/slow sub (that is 230m below!). I have all the latest anti-sonar coatings and the best decoys and still these guys are hot on my tail. Is there anything special I am not doing?

[Keelbuster]

Here's the thing - in clear weather, with escorts that have decent active ASDIC (>1942), you can't escape silently. Silence doesn't really matter, nor does depth. It's distance. You could turn all your engines off and sit at max depth, and they'll just ping-triangulate you. You have to get out of the area. Wait until an attack run, preferrably where both (or all) of your attackers are moving quickly (a stopped one will try to pick you up on passive) and then floor it. In emergencies, I would use the full 20 seconds on flank, with a bearing change, and drop a decoy. You need to get outside of their active cone. You want to put (ideally) 800m-1km between you and them. Otherwise they'll just pick you up again on active and you have to try again. Also, when I'm going flank, I'll often drop back to ahead standard for an additional few seconds, just to maintain the 6kts, and then down to ahead 1/3 for another five seconds, and then back to silent. During this run, you can do any repairs you need to do. In my exp. distance is the only hope.

The silence thing only works in really rough weather - high seas. This can really disguise yer sub, and their asdic returns are much less effective. In late war (44/45), I decided that I would only attack in rough weather - glassy/still ocean is a death trap.

Kb

[Keelbuster]

Oh - one other thing - decoys only work when they are somewhere that you are NOT. So, if you drop a decoy at 1kts, you'll be right beside it for a long time. That just means that your sonar profile is now twice as big as it was before. Only drop decoys at flank. And, I've found that you want to drop them after you get going - DDs will attack your last position and circle around. If you drop a decoy right before you go flank, they might not see -it - they will turn to face your noise trace, and may have the decoy in their baffles. So, during that 10-20 second dash, drop the decoy about 5 or 10 seconds into it. Keep running at flank. They'll come after you and start pinging. When you think you've put a few hundred meters between you and the decoy, drop to 1/3 and silence the crew. With any luck, the decoy will be between you and them, and it will be blaring in their ASDIC scan and they won't be able to resist a DC run on it. When this happens, repeat this strategy and you should be able to strip off all the escorts and put 2km of safety space between you and them. Then it's off to silence - between 1.5 and 2km, I think you're almost out of their active window (depending on sea-state), and _then_ it pays to go silent.

[Keelbuster]

Finally - one last thing (it's a sensitive topic for me - i lost my last 3 boats to DC attack): Even when you're out of range of active asdic (2km or so), you don't want to go 1kts. It's too slow. You want distance. In fact, at 2km, I might go up to 1/3 and pull 5kts. Then you're certain to clear em. The reason I do this is that I think (but can't actually verify) that some escorts use an expanding-circle search pattern. So, when they lose you, they do a circle with a 1km radius, followed by one with a 2km radius, and so on. So, even if you skip the first pass, they may surprise you with the second and then yer right back in the heat again. I do a lot of my evasion at 1/3 rather than slow. I'd never do 1kts - the only time i go for real silence is when approaching a convoy, and the escorts aren't suspicious (i.e. snake-searching), and they sail right past me. At that point I go all-schtop, silence, and pucker-up.

(phew)

kb

[tycho102]

The issue here is the destroyer's active sonar range needs to be increased from stock. The game shipped with a 0m range. IRL, it was 200-400m. That alone will balance the 1944-1945 game back to a
playable level.

Increasing the minimum radar detection height is another one of those absolutely necessary "tweaks" to the stock game. The snorkel wasn't *that* visible. :doh:

I think it was foolish for Ubisoft to balance the gameplay with "uber" escorts. That was an extraordinarily poor decision, and I suspect it was only implemented due to time constraints (like so many other things in the game :damn: ).

[Aismov]

Well I used keelbuster's tips and it worked like a charm. A bit counterintuitive to escape by making tons of noise at flank but it worked!

The issue here is the destroyer's active sonar range needs to be increased from stock. The game shipped with a 0m range. IRL, it was 200-400m. That alone will balance the 1944-1945 game back to a
playable level.

Increasing the minimum radar detection height is another one of those absolutely necessary "tweaks" to the stock game. The snorkel wasn't *that* visible.


How would I go about doing that? Sorry if this is a stupid question...

[VonHelsching]

Hey VonHelsching, can you use the Unified Campaign with the updated 1.1 version of GW? I mean if I enable the mods like so:

GW ver 1.0
Gw ver 1.1
Unified Campaign for GW

Ace,

Check my reply at:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=51623

Not conclusive answer. We'll have to wait for Kpt. Lehmann to answer that.

[DeepSix]

... At that point I go all-schtop, silence, and pucker-up.

(phew)

kb

:rotfl: "We are taking damage, Herr Kaleun!" "I cannot find my seat cushion, Herr Kaleun!"

[Heibges]

After their DC's go off the sound carrying characteristics are borked for a few minutes so it is safe to go at higher speeds. I will run at Full Speed 2 minutes after the DC's go off.

Cutting speed form 3 to 1kt defintely makes a difference. You can hear the motors get quieter.

I would not zig-zag if you don't have to, because I keeps you near the target longer. If possible try to stay in a straight line.

Does SH3 put thermal layers in all missions? They should only be present sometimes. They work pretty realistically in the stock game. Often you will find them at 40 or 70 meters.

And by 1944 I'm sure the allies did have a boat load of elite uboat killers. I don't think its meant to balance gameplay, I think it's a fact.

[JSalinger]

They did...does the name Captain Johnny Walker ring a bell? His escort group got Prien, Kretschmer, and Schepke, all in one night IIRC.

[CCIP]

They did...does the name Captain Johnny Walker ring a bell? His escort group got Prien, Kretschmer, and Schepke, all in one night IIRC.

:o

You are most definitely confusing something.

Walker was a staff officer at the time those 3 were sunk. And they were sunk within a week of each other, not night. :hmm:

Here, read up on this remarkable man, though:
http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/walker.html

:up:

[JSalinger]

::bows:: I stand corrected. My apologies...currently trying to pull an all-nighter and the Mountain Dew ran out.

EDIT: I must really be out of it...I'm thinking HMS Walker and HMS Vanoc...

[Keelbuster]

Does SH3 put thermal layers in all missions? They should only be present sometimes. They work pretty realistically in the stock game. Often you will find them at 40 or 70 meters.


Thermal layers aren't modeled. Probably a noob escort that lost you at 40m. Bad weather, maybe? Rough water can make you close to invisible.

Kb

[VonHelsching]

Thermal layers arn't modelled, but they have beed modded recently into the game via SH3 Commander. Make a search. The modder's name is Hemisent.

[U-Dog]

Wow, great thread with lots of great tips. This kinda thing is why i love poking around at Subsim!

Thanks guys!
:ping:

[BigBadVuk]

Does GW mod also add layers?

[VonHelsching]

No, they cannot be "added" to *any* mod. Thermal layers can be introduced to the game and randomized only from SH3 Commander. It doesn't matterch which mods you have already installed.

Also Hemisent is now preparing a randomized malfunctions / sabotage mod, which will also be incorporated to SH3 Commander. I think that the sabotage mod is ready.

[Ducimus]

The issue here is the destroyer's active sonar range needs to be increased from stock. The game shipped with a 0m range. IRL, it was 200-400m. That alone will balance the 1944-1945 game back to a
playable level.

Increasing the minimum radar detection height is another one of those absolutely necessary "tweaks" to the stock game. The snorkel wasn't *that* visible. :doh:

I think it was foolish for Ubisoft to balance the gameplay with "uber" escorts. That was an extraordinarily poor decision, and I suspect it was only implemented due to time constraints (like so many other things in the game :damn: ).

Yeah basically what he said. Make sure your running some mods to make the vanilla DD's not so uber. THey are FAR FAR TOO good. Alot better then what they should be.

Bewarned, some things you can change in mid patrol, some things you can't. I'm pretty sure you can change anythign dealing with sonar mid patrol. But thats pretty much it.


Even after fixing the DD's detection means, you'll always have that one DD you just can't seem to shake. Theres a minimun time that has to expire before they decide they've lost contact. You have to make yourself really hard to find during that time, and be somewhere he doesn't think you are. Whats really distressing is when youve shaken 4 out of 5 escorts, but that one lingers.

If he regains contact, his buddies will come back to help him. On the other hand if lets say the min contact lost time is 10 mins, and they are 15 mins away, they'll turn around and go back to the convoy. But that one will still linger. He gives up eventually, but the best way to get out from under him is to creep away, and be where he's not.