K19

[Kapitan]

The first soviet nuclear submarines were now at sea, K3 had had already an accident, and the soviets were now starting to put missiles into diesel submarines for proper patrols not normal test runs.

Then began in 1959 project 658 code named Hotel by NATO, the first submarine to be nuclear powerd and carry three ballistic missiles, this would be the soviets first SSBN.

Work began in 1959 at break neck pace litteraly, no fewer than 10 men died constructing K19 alone, back up systems were never installed and the boat was never ready for sea at any time in her long career.

K19 was finaly ready for her premature sea trial's, her captain was 33 year old Captain 1st rank Nikolai Zatayev.
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/5972/zateyev7nv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Zateyev was well liked by his crew, a fair but firm captain, he also was one who used to always put the pollitical officers in sticky spots, which won him favour through out the northern fleet and also high up in the admiralty.

Zatayev was not a nuclear sea captain, in his days all he ever commanded was small whiskey class diesel boats, he recieved his first command around the age of 26, which even by todays standards is young.

K19 put to sea on her maiden deployment in 1961 after being at sea for some time, the crew turned around heading back to the barnets sea via rounding iceland.

K19's goal was to pretend to be an america SSBN trying to get in close to soviet waters and to fire thier missiles, however early morning on the 4th of july problems began the nuclear reactor was heading for melt down.

Zatayev surfaced but the radio mast broken, no message could be sent or recieved via the long range radio, the only hope was to send men to coll the rector in which he did.

K19 now had a split choice head for jan myen and scuttle K19 or take a gambel and head away from certain saftey and try to locate a pack of Diesel submarines to the south, zatayev gambled.

Not long after it paid off S270 had arrived along with another submarine, men were off loaded and then rushed back home, S270 remained with K19 with her tube doors open and wepons ready to fire should anyone try and board her.

After this first tragerdy Zatayev was relieved of command, K19 was repaired and put back to sea, many of the men lived for a few days many years later more would die including in the 1990's zatayev.

The K19 was out of action for some 3 years upon returning to service she was dubbed "hiroshima".

In 1972 K19 sufferd a fire not far from the american coast, the painstaking task of towing the sub home was left to merchant vessel, again the captain was relieved.

Many more minor accidents took place untill K19 was final decommissioned and laid up in 1991, after a long and worrying career.

In 2003 the russian government annouced that K19 was to be scrapped, today very little remains of the K19, the K19 was built at a time when one up man ship was common place, and when russia despratly needed to catch americans, something they done with K19's sucsessors the yankee.

The K19 was heavily modified converted to a Hotel II she carried 6 missiles and could fire them submerged, later she was re designated as a communications submarine, some others as radar pickets, but none the less K19 served the soviet union well.

The thoughs of what happend are still hard to remove from former crew members who watched their friends die infront of them.

Question is should the soviets have done more to stop this?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/bigelowonk19.jpg
K19 with some important woman during the filming of K19 the widowmaker

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/K19STORES.jpg
K19 laid up she will wait here for 12 years before being scrapped

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/K19asshewas.jpg
K19 as she was back in 1961

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/K19.jpg
K19 after her heavy modification

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/scraphangar.jpg
All that remains of K19 is here some where

[Oberon]

It kinda reminds me of the space race, the two nations rushing so desperately to out-do each other, and in such rushes mistakes are made by both sides. The problem with the Soviets, that I've found through reading about various Soviet sub accidents is that the level of incompetence in the higher echolons of command was pretty high. Take for example, K-219...Britanov was ordered to put a makeshift crew back onto the sub, even though she was doomed, and try to put her back to port. It would seem in some cases that the machine was worth more than the men...which is a real ass about face way of doing things but it did seem to be Soviet doctrine, at least at higher levels of command...but thankfully, at lower levels common sense prevailed.
:ping:

[Kapitan]

K219 captain i heard similar thing he was orderd to put, some of the crew back on the submarine (by this time it was on its way to the bottom).

The reason for that was because the soviets were worried the americans might try to board it, they did have a naval tug called Powertan in the area and he did offer assistance several times but was told to keep miles away.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

great stuff Kap...great pics as well... many thx...

--Mike

[Kapitan]

I have recently come accross some pictures of the K19 when she was striken off the US coast in 1972.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/K19a.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/K19b.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/scrappingK19.jpg

K19 just before scrapping starts

[PeriscopeDepth]

The books an excellent read in case any of you haven't read it yet :). The movie was OK, Harrison Ford definitely looked like the real captain I thought.

PD

[Kapitan]

There are some issues in the film that never happend in real life, i mean where in gods name did that destroyer come from?

And no captain unless he had a death wish would run around the boat saying "they turned themselves into heros".

The film is typical american soviet history, reminds me of U571

[GunnersMate]

Wasnt there a golf class loast off hawaii?

[Kapitan]

you mean K129 Gol class SSB it left base in 1968 in the russian far east headed for its patrol route, and wasnt seen again.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/k129.jpg

This is one of a very few colour photographs of K129, after she was lost the russians even denied thier own submarines existance, instead renaming this submarine K129 and following that they named another Delta K129 also.

Confused so am i !

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

It kinda reminds me of the space race, the two nations rushing so desperately to out-do each other, and in such rushes mistakes are made by both sides. The problem with the Soviets, that I've found through reading about various Soviet sub accidents is that the level of incompetence in the higher echolons of command was pretty high. Take for example, K-219...Britanov was ordered to put a makeshift crew back onto the sub, even though she was doomed, and try to put her back to port. It would seem in some cases that the machine was worth more than the men...which is a real ass about face way of doing things but it did seem to be Soviet doctrine, at least at higher levels of command...but thankfully, at lower levels common sense prevailed.
:ping:

Not so good for morale. However, sometimes I see it as a sign of their paranoia and that they are behind.

Consider this coldly. The sub is EXTREMELY expensive. It is an old Yankee but if it goes down there still aren't that many replacements. The conscripts onboard are cheap to produce and there are countless replacements. Without the additional stress of handling the People of the Nation, a cold calc falls out like this.

To that you add national security considerations. Here's where the overall inferior Russian tech base costs them. Any secrets they have are easier to copy and exploit.

For example, the Soviets in the late 70s built a radar called Soyuz (or was it Istok). It is supposed to be comparable in performance and function to the APG-65. Some say that it was copied to a greater or lesser extent. But the important part of the story is that the Soviet tech base could not mass produce it and they had to revert to older systems. By the time they tried to make something of similar (Zhuk) functionality for mass rather than experimental production, it was over 10 years later and it won't have been available until at least the early 90s even if the USSR hadn't broken up, by which time the US had moved on and had the Cold War still been going on, at least halfway towards F-22s and Active Phased Array Radars - a generational leap. Certainly all the other radars would have been upgraded.

This tech superiority gives the West a confidence. If a 688 or F-18 gets compromised to the Russians, it is really bad news to be sure, but the Russians won't be able to reverse-engineer at least some of the state of the art equipment until another half-generation moves on and the Americans got something better.

The Russians don't have that confidence. The West being ahead in overall tech knows all the major tricks. If there is some minor trick worth copying they could implement it better, fast. For example, if the West wanted to copy the Zaslon phased array, they definitely can, and put a better computer on it while they were at it - improves range and tracking ability.

This raises the relative value of an average Russian military secret versus an average American military secret. This is compared to a lower value of a Russian crewman compared to his American counterpart.

Now add a feeling of paranoia that the West would crush them given a chance. If you think war is imminent every day, the relative value of secrets again goes up and the value of men goes down.

While these factors may not fully justify this attitude, it is something to consider.

[Kapitan]

K219 was one of 34 submarine's built, in total at the hight my records show as many as 91 nuclear ballistic missile submarines in service, with as many as 537 submarines in service all together at the hieght.

Hardly irreplacable.

[Konovalov]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/K19b.jpg

In this photo is that ship firing a flare and if so why?

[The Avon Lady]

Could it be that they fired a towing rope over, as they couldn't approach due to the rough conditions?

Or is there no such possibility or need for this in rough seas?

[Kapitan]

They are firing a tow rope to the submarine, a single man couldnt make the distance.

[Kapitan]

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/k19/

National geographic showing the events of the K19 through her first mission and what she is doing now.

Sadly as you saw she has been scrapped, it would have been nice to turn her into a museam.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

K219 was one of 34 submarine's built, in total at the hight my records show as many as 91 nuclear ballistic missile submarines in service, with as many as 537 submarines in service all together at the hieght.

Hardly irreplacable.

Precisely. It is 1 of 91. That's not too rare, but compare it with the crew. Over a million conscripts make it to military age every year...

[tycho102]

I have not specifically read about the K19 disaster. I have, of course, watched the movie. Please correct me (and forgive me) if I have made the wrong "factual" assumptions, based on the highly Hollywoodized movie:


------------------------------------------------------
1. They sailed with chemical suits instead of lead/depleted-uranium lined radiation suits.

2. They pulled a steam leak on the coolant lines.

3. Soviet Russia radio'd the boat, and said, "KEEP THE REACTORS RUNNING, KOMRADES!!"

4. They sent men into the reactor with MIG/TIG welding tools, to fix the pipes.

5. With chemical suits. Into the reactor. To weld the water pipes.

6. You have got to be kidding me.

7. I mean it. With a critical reactor. Welding pipes. In chemical suits. You have got to be kidding me.

8. We are talking about 1 Sievert per minute. You're shaving off, in a manner of speaking, 10 years of your life per minute. So if you're twenty years old, you are done after 8 minutes. 10 minutes, and you are super duper well done.

9. Lethal radiation exposure is an absolutely terrible way to die. Those guys in the helicopters at Chernobyl were the bravest f*cking band of Russians I've even imagined. That gives me the willies just thinking about the courage those men had. I can't imagine the courage the K19 chief engineer had, knowing that he was done with his life, going in to inspect the repair work.

10. K19 seems like another series of absolutely perfect mistakes and incomptetence, like the Titanic and Apollo 13 disasters (as well as Chernobyl, CHRIST!).

[TLAM Strike]

10. K19 seems like another series of absolutely perfect mistakes and incomptetence, like the Titanic and Apollo 13 disasters (as well as Chernobyl, CHRIST!).Apollo 13 a series of absolutely perfect mistakes and incompetence?!? One faulty part out of a thousand that worked beyond all expectations in the harshest environment yet encountered by humanity all thanks to arguably a group of the most intelligent and competent people ever assembled. You have got to be joking! :o

[tycho102]

One faulty part out of a thousand that worked beyond all expectations in the harshest environment yet encountered by humanity all thanks to arguably a group of the most intelligent and competent people ever assembled. You have got to be joking! :o

Do you mean the batteries that pooled hydrogen gas?

Do you mean the gauges that pegged at 80 degrees fahrenheit?

Do you mean the launch-pad voltage of 65, or the space craft's operating voltage of 24, which fused the oxygen tank's relay?

Do you mean the oxygen tank's accident, where it was dropped several meters?

Do you mean the pogo oscillation of the second stage, which caused an engine shutdown, which also just-so-happened to cause problems with a previous Apollo mission?

----------------------------------------------------------

To which faulty part are you referring?

Are you, metaphorically, referring to NASA as a faulty part?

[JSLTIGER]

One faulty part out of a thousand that worked beyond all expectations in the harshest environment yet encountered by humanity all thanks to arguably a group of the most intelligent and competent people ever assembled. You have got to be joking! :o

Do you mean the batteries that pooled hydrogen gas?

Do you mean the gauges that pegged at 80 degrees fahrenheit?

Do you mean the launch-pad voltage of 65, or the space craft's operating voltage of 24, which fused the oxygen tank's relay?

Do you mean the oxygen tank's accident, where it was dropped several meters?

Do you mean the pogo oscillation of the second stage, which caused an engine shutdown, which also just-so-happened to cause problems with a previous Apollo mission?

----------------------------------------------------------

To which faulty part are you referring?

Are you, metaphorically, referring to NASA as a faulty part?

1. The batteries were never meant to be used for extended periods of time, rendering the amount of hydrogen build-up minor.

2. The gauges pegged at 80F because the tanks were meant to be storing a substance THAT WAS ROUTINELY STORED AT -400+F.

3. The difference in voltage was something that switched mid-way through production. Should it have been accounted for? Absolutely. Is it hard to see why it was not? No.

4. Despite the drop, it sustained no external damage. Should it have been rechecked before being used on a spacecraft? Absolutely. When one is up against a deadline to put 363-foot tall rockets with MILLIONS of individual pieces together, one single component can easily be overlooked.

5. The POGO oscillation was detected by the onboard computer which shut down the number 5 engine. The other four burned slightly longer than planned to compensate for the lost thrust of the fifth engine. Regardless, at NO point did Apollo 13 ever deviate significantly enough from the accepted parameters of their launch trajectory to cause problems.

As for NASA being faulty, yes, it has its problems like anything else made by human beings, but I'd like to see you do it better.

[TLAM Strike]

All those small problems alone would not have caused a total disaster even two or three together would not have. Spacecraft are designed to operate with failures, 13 was just an example of 1 too many.

[PeriscopeDepth]

There are some issues in the film that never happend in real life, i mean where in gods name did that destroyer come from?

And no captain unless he had a death wish would run around the boat saying "they turned themselves into heros".

The film is typical american soviet history, reminds me of U571

Of course it's historically inaccurate, it's Hollywood!

PD :D

[Kapitan]

this is answers to tyco

1) no evedence to support this although its more than likely true

2) IRL they weleded an extension pipe and flooded the reactor to which it cooled

3) the boat had no long range radio equipment because it had short cicuted so bad they could only send via emergency transmitter, all messages was sent via S270

[Wim Libaers]

1. They sailed with chemical suits instead of lead/depleted-uranium lined radiation suits.

Seems reasonable. Radiation suits are very heavy and uncomfortable, and only useful for small sources (weak X-ray machines, small research samples of radioactive material). Offering protection good enough to survive an active reaction would not be practical if you're supposed to move or stand upright.

Chemical suits with masks can be useful in cases where the radiation is not very intense, but there's a lot of loose radioactive material. While they do not offer much protection against radiation, they prevent contamination of the skin and lungs.

8. We are talking about 1 Sievert per minute. You're shaving off, in a manner of speaking, 10 years of your life per minute. So if you're twenty years old, you are done after 8 minutes. 10 minutes, and you are super duper well done.

9. Lethal radiation exposure is an absolutely terrible way to die. Those guys in the helicopters at Chernobyl were the bravest f*cking band of Russians I've even imagined. That gives me the willies just thinking about the courage those men had. I can't imagine the courage the K19 chief engineer had, knowing that he was done with his life, going in to inspect the repair work.

I assume that, at least in the case of Chernobyl, they may not have been completely informed about the risks.

For effects:
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq5.html

[Kapitan]

Also i dont think you could compair chernobyl to K19, chernobyl was a full meltdown and was what 50 times the size of K19's reactor.

I think the world shoud learn that nuclear power can be safe if its used correctly, even countrys like britain and america are not immune from the dangers 3 mile island and sellafied good examples.

I live not far from a decommissioned nuclear plant in bradwell, and i do think that we in the future may have to turn and rely fully on nuclear power because the fossil fuels are deminishing fast.

[JSLTIGER]

Also i dont think you could compair chernobyl to K19, chernobyl was a full meltdown and was what 50 times the size of K19's reactor.

I think the world shoud learn that nuclear power can be safe if its used correctly, even countrys like britain and america are not immune from the dangers 3 mile island and sellafied good examples.

I live not far from a decommissioned nuclear plant in bradwell, and i do think that we in the future may have to turn and rely fully on nuclear power because the fossil fuels are deminishing fast.

I hate to break it to you, but we running on about 50 years of uranium...that's it. This can be extended to about 400 years IF we use breeder reactors.

[Wim Libaers]

Also i dont think you could compair chernobyl to K19, chernobyl was a full meltdown and was what 50 times the size of K19's reactor.

I think the world shoud learn that nuclear power can be safe if its used correctly, even countrys like britain and america are not immune from the dangers 3 mile island and sellafied good examples.

I live not far from a decommissioned nuclear plant in bradwell, and i do think that we in the future may have to turn and rely fully on nuclear power because the fossil fuels are deminishing fast.

I hate to break it to you, but we running on about 50 years of uranium...that's it. This can be extended to about 400 years IF we use breeder reactors.

I've seen 1000 years for breeders, but that's assuming energy consumption levels remain equal. There are some other options (uranium from seawater, using thorium, getting the uranium and thorium from coal), but yes, with currect practices, the easily accessible nuclear fuel will not last long.

[Kapitan]

Looks like America is going to be importing uranium from magadan then :rotfl:

I wish have you seen the active mines in magadan? ive seen pictures and what not and they are huge like quareys. :o

[The Noob]

There is a Movie about K-19 in TV, is it Good? :roll:

[The Noob]

Ah, finally i got Rid of Bonnet... :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

The K19 film is only about 75% true there is alot of holes i could pick into it, some examples for a start is where did the destroyer come from, another when did the captain even be relieved of command.

Many of the people who served on K19 do not like the movie, they say it portrays them as drunkerds and incompetant, Vladimir Yenin even voiced his discust to the international submarine community in st petersburg.

So dont take the film as gospel truth.

[The Avon Lady]

Ah, finally i got Rid of Bonnet... :rotfl:
I wouldn't brag about your new avatar, either!

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/8808/gram8cj.jpg

[The Noob]

The K19 film is only about 75% true there is alot of holes i could pick into it, some examples for a start is where did the destroyer come from, another when did the captain even be relieved of command.


Get the Real Story of U-96 and then watch Das Boot. Das Boot is just 25% True, So What?


Many of the people who served on K19 do not like the movie, they say it portrays them as drunkerds and incompetant


Well, it's an american Movie about Soviets, so what did You expected?

:rotfl:

I wouldn't brag about your new avatar, either!

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/8808/gram8cj.jpg
[/quote]

HOLY SHEEP! *Takes his Luger and Shoots Himself*

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

What did i expect, well for a starters the film amkers to honour thier promises to the living and fallen crew.

Thats genrally a good start.

[Linton]

The woman on the submarine in kapitan's picture is the director of the film Kathryn Bigelow

[Kapitan]

I feel sorry for that woman i know if she ever set foot in st petes again then she might just get linched.

[TLAM Strike]

There are some issues in the film that never happend in real life, i mean where in gods name did that destroyer come from? I assume it came from a shipyard. :-j

Whets the big deal, an American destroyer showed up and hangs around in the background to add a little drama. Its not like they disguised them selves as Russians and sneaked aboard to steal the launch codes!

And no captain unless he had a death wish would run around the boat saying "they turned themselves into heros". Huh? Maybe I'm thick but care to explain that?

Listen a 75% accurate movie is probably the most realistic submarine movie to date. :lol:

[Linton]

Kapitan would you care to elborate on the director's unpopularity in ST.P?The dvd I have got includes an interview with her.

[Kapitan]

Any captain running around his submarine exclaiming his crew are heros, would be frownd upon in the kremlin, the only person that had the power to call or award some one hero of the soviet union was the premier.

The political officer, could stop that shinanagen simply but shooting the officer exclaiming this, as he has no authority to do so.
It could be seen as your undermining the premier and that would lead to trason which in turn leads to death sentance.

Also a political officer would not use a fire arm to sieze control of any vessel unless they realy had to, not long after the K19 incident there was an attempted defection from crew members from a ship at sea, as i believe one man was shot out right for betrayl of his country and also tratory.

The others were quickly taken away and never seen again.

Thats how a few little words could mean the diffrence between life and death, we are lucky in the west we can speak our minds, but most dont get is that in the soviet union it was very regulated so by saying he is my hero could be twisted and used against you.

K19 is a dramatised version of acctualy events, i personaly do think they show the crew as totaly incompetent and drunkards, there is a thing called rationing which the russians have used for years to stop any crew member from getting drunk.

In real life there was no DDG and there was two submarines that came to the rescue S159 and S270 also a third stood gaurd while a merchant ship towed K19 back to sea, the captain was also last to leave his ship and the russian watch submarine had strict orders to sink the submarine should any american or NATO vessel came closer than a mile to the submarine.

[Kapitan]

She is highly unpopular with former vetrans and also modern day sailors, they have a tendancy to think that she is responcible for mentaly dragging them down.

St Petersburg is home to the submarine vet club and thousands of sailors from the northern and baltic fleets, it is a naval city, there are more sailors here than moscow or even Nizhney Novgorad.

The vet's say that she showed them as incompetent and unable to do thier jobs, to which they will always disagree, also vladimir yennin (1st officer on the sub in 1961) has publicly stated that he strongly disaproves of the film, hence why it was quite a flop in russia.

This is hollywood portrayl of a soviet event, facts have been twisted and distorted only to suite the american ideas of the russian navy, and i can tell you from first hand that the film and real life differ greatly.

[Linton]

She is still the best looking woman I have seen on a submarine!!

[I-25]

This is hollywood portrayl of a soviet event, facts have been twisted and distorted only to suite the american ideas of the russian navy, and i can tell you from first hand that the film and real life differ greatly.

Sadly that is VERY true

[The Noob]

I Today Watched the Movie. HOLY SHEEP!

Thats damn the Best Submarine movie i Ever Watched!

Even better than Das Boot!

I'm Still Stunned... :huh: