Ubisoft Drops Starforce Copy protection!

[Soulcommander]

It's as close of an official statement we may get, but Starforce is no longer going to be on Ubisoft games.
Late yesterday evening I was indirectly confronted with questions asking me and 13thHouR what we would do if Ubisoft would drop Starforce from Heros of Might and Magic V.
Then the questions became more specific.

I answered if that happened even though HOMM V is not my type of game play I would buy it and take a picture of it.

I was asked if I would promote it and tell others. I said it would be news worthy so I would talk to the Media about this yes.

You can read all about this at www.r-force.org our web site.

If you read this thread you will begin, if your intuitive enough to see the whole picture. :rock:
http://r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=141

As I said before, persistance pays off and the truth will eventually come out!

Thanks to all in the Starforce Investigation!!!!!

We will have a story posted on r-force.org soon as soon as I see an official statement from Ubisoft!



Soulcommander

[TteFAboB]

I would forgive them if they released a Starforce-killer program of sorts that would disable/prevent Starforce from being installed or running at all.

From now on, games will be free of SF, but the older stuff still needs alternative .exes and what not.

So, how's the bankruptcy legislation in Russia? Do you think we could convince Putin to send them all to Siberia? Or better yet, deport them to China and get them to work on the Chinese firewall, in a few weeks Starforce will destroy the entire system and the Chinese will be free to search for Tibet RuleZ and Democracy for teh W1n, without having to go through all that proxy hassle.

[kiwi_2005]

Ubisoft drops Starforce :rock:
Not a good message when a top developer like ubisoft cancels it. :yep:
Aussie gaming mag PCPowerplay game reviewers always warn the reader when reviewing a game that has starforce. These guys aren't just game reviewers they specialists in Hardware and Programming.

Starforce should be worried,

[Godalmighty83]

now just to get codemasters to realise their mistakes and we wil be well away at getting rid of the starforce virus.

[Soulcommander]

I have already asked for a patch to games like Silent Hunter III so I and many orthers can play it again with out worry.

I was without a CDRW drive until just Sunday when I reformatted my PC after my email account was broke into and all the Starforce docs I conducted with Ubi in the Starforce investigation. Much more I cant talk about...so I now have a new cdrw drive and NO SF!!
Funny how after almost a year and then this breaking news I get a new drive to replace my damaged one.
:rock:

[Soulcommander]

now just to get codemasters to realise their mistakes and we wil be well away at getting rid of the starforce virus.
Do you have ESP?
LOL I was just talking to someone about that.
But remember SF is not a virus.
:up:

[Soulcommander]

Ubisoft drops Starforce :rock:
Not a good message when a top developer like ubisoft cancels it. :yep:
Aussie gaming mag PCPowerplay game reviewers always warn the reader when reviewing a game that has starforce. These guys aren't just game reviewers they specialists in Hardware and Programming.

Starforce should be worried,
What you missed my ugly mug in Gamepro there in the NZ? :rotfl:

[Godalmighty83]

now just to get codemasters to realise their mistakes and we wil be well away at getting rid of the starforce virus.
Do you have ESP?
LOL I was just talking to someone about that.
But remember SF is not a virus.
:up:

no, very true. virus homepages dont have forums. ;)

[Godalmighty83]

just tried to spread the good news on the x3 forums, it got locked very quickly indeed.

even though i didnt say anything against starforce or even mention piracy at all.

it seems you cant posts some gaming news on gaming sites.

[Drebbel]

Why is this good news ? Why so estatic as if a war has been won ? SHIII will still have SF and SHIV will just have a different software proggie. That different software thingy will ale cause / be blamed for many problems.

For SHIV we will not have "I hate SF threads" but "I hate .... threads"

This is not a victory at all, just a reminder of how difficult it is to protect your own stuff from being stolen.

It is all of us who use illegal software who are too blame companies have to take measures like this.

[Soulcommander]

just tried to spread the good news on the x3 forums, it got locked very quickly indeed.

even though i didnt say anything against starforce or even mention piracy at all.

it seems you cant posts some gaming news on gaming sites.
Please post a link to that site please.

[Soulcommander]

Why is this good news ? Why so estatic as if a war has been won ? SHIII will still have SF and SHIV will just have a different software proggie. That different software thingy will ale cause / be blamed for many problems.

For SHIV we will not have "I hate SF threads" but "I hate .... threads"

This is not a victory at all, just a reminder of how difficult it is to protect your own stuff from being stolen.

It is all of us who use illegal software who are too blame companies have to take measures like this.
Your wrong. Companies don't have to take measures like this. Stardocks Galactic Civ II is a good game with no copy protection. Sold out in North America in 10 days.

If Ubi uses any other copy protection its fine by me as long as it doesn't cause issues like Starforce did.

And it is a happy Day! You are obviously not informed. I am asking for a patch to remove SF from Silent hunter 3

If we get one good, if we don't, I will not be buying the game.
Simple as that. But I am one of the lucky ones that Ubi allowed me to send in my original disc and in turn they sent me a sealed copy that I was told to take back to my retailer.
So for others thats not an option now. Ihave had people email me saying Ubi willnot do this anymore.

:damn: Frustrating for the rest of you who have the game, if they don't release an official patch.

Soul

[kiwi_2005]

Why is this good news ? Why so estatic as if a war has been won ? SHIII will still have SF and SHIV will just have a different software proggie. That different software thingy will ale cause / be blamed for many problems.

I bet the software proggie will be Securom 7 or 8, compared to SF its safe.[/quote]

[Skybird]

now just to get codemasters to realise their mistakes and we wil be well away at getting rid of the starforce virus.

SimBin. I want back my beloved GTR. An installer so that SF never enters the holy place of my HD. Same installer for GT Legends and virtual Skipper 4 - which then I would consider to buy.

[GunnersMate]

Whoever invented Starforce shoud but inside a 16" gun and shot headfirst at a tack covered in salt and lemon juice. :nope: :stare: :damn:

[Skybird]

Why is this good news ? Why so estatic as if a war has been won ? SHIII will still have SF and SHIV will just have a different software proggie. That different software thingy will ale cause / be blamed for many problems.

For SHIV we will not have "I hate SF threads" but "I hate .... threads"

This is not a victory at all, just a reminder of how difficult it is to protect your own stuff from being stolen.

It is all of us who use illegal software who are too blame companies have to take measures like this.

Langenscheidt-Collins Dictionary English/German came with SF. Short time later they released an alternative installer that did not only remove installed SF driver, but allowed people to install the dictionary without SF, and then copy only the books from CD - Sf never touched the HD that way. I doubt that we will see that for many older games, unfortunately.

It is a victory indeed, but sure, they will come with more sick stuff like that. Blue Ray for Playstation 3 - so problematic that it delayed the release. HardDrive-Videorecorders - and manufacturers choosing copy protections and standards that produce more and more incompatabilities. Incompatabilities with copy protections for Audio-CD, Sony it was. HD-TV, again with hidden intricacies and traps most people do not know about. The future surely holds sweet promises.

Nevertheless the massive anti-SF-campaign illustrates that if only enough customers vote with their wallets, something can be moved. Concenring the even worse intricacies that are laying ahead of us, and not only limited to the field of PCs, this is somethign weorth to be remembered.Since longer time DVD-videorecorders are laying like lead on the shelves, although they have become acceptable in price - too much incompatability troubles. I forsee the same, on a worse scale, with HD-videorecorders. And with HD-TV. I intend not to buy any of these for as long as technologically possible. I have a DVD-video-player, a VHS-recorder, and a standard TV, which eventually will get replaced this year, widescreen yes, but not HD, maybe even not LCD. No troubles that way, I will remain a happy man by reducing chances for trouble.

Having something new is all nice and well, but when the "new" things come in shorter and shorter intervals, they turn into a stress factor and a constant source of anger. Concerning copy protection (PC, music, movies), I think the industry has gone crazy, somehow. I think it is more and more about pushing through manufactural technological standards, to make customers stick to one's own products, and hiunder them to buy those of the other companies. In other words, it is about monopolizing, and control and power over consumers. Governments do not dare anymore to confront this. That'S why in Germany we have a perverted law situation saying nthat - like in my school days - the copying of music is allowed in family and friends-circle (!), even if the music CD is copy protected. The illegal thing is not to copy it, but to bypass the copy protection scheme. at the same time the GEMA-fees, that are included in every single price a customer pays, still compensate the industry for losses due to copying, like in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Maybe companies are overfishing their own pools of customers? Maybe "more" is not always "better". Why spending ressources on producing crap? turn on the radio and you immediately know what I mean. Quality has become sparse.

I'm straying off. I apologize. Put the blame of the second glass of wine that I just had. :)

what i mean is just this: did we win the war? no, it will go on. did we win a battle? Yes. So give us some time to celebrate and take a deep breath, before we take on the next enemy.

[jasonb885]

Why is this good news ? Why so estatic as if a war has been won ? SHIII will still have SF and SHIV will just have a different software proggie. That different software thingy will ale cause / be blamed for many problems.

For SHIV we will not have "I hate SF threads" but "I hate .... threads"

This is not a victory at all, just a reminder of how difficult it is to protect your own stuff from being stolen.

It is all of us who use illegal software who are too blame companies have to take measures like this.

It's great news because StarForce is especially insidious and if you visit their forums they're quite arrogant. I'd rather not give them any of my money by proxy.

StarForce, like other protection rackets, never effectively prevents software copying. Professional software pirates, those that use industrial processes to mass duplicate games, are rarely effected. It's generally the honest consumer that is screwed by copy prevention schemes.

So, yes, this is definitely positive news for would-be purchasers of UBI games.

[CCIP]

Frankly, I am not aware of any other copy protection scheme that has faced opposition on a scale even close to Starforce. They're annoying sometimes, but nothing of this sort :hmm:

[Wulfmann]

If SF had actually worked while others failed to keep their games from being cracked that might be different Herr Drebbelmaker :rotfl:

SH3 was quickly cracked but still sold well enough to justify SH4. Most use the crack to get rid of SF. After SF removal, like magic, I did a new install of the OC and never had a problem again.

SF was damaging. They, any of them, do not have the right to play Russian roulette with our computers.

I am sure we are all pro copy protection to insure future product. But not one that opens your PC to problems.

I have had many games and this one is the only copy protection that directly affected the performance of my PC. No other copy protection did that, nada, null!!!

This is a small victory that hopefully causes devs to demand protection that does not attack their loyal customer base.

Wulfmann

[DeepSix]

Just for the record, Drebbel, it's not copy-protection I object to, but bad copy protection. Why should those who purchase software legally be made to pay the penalty for those who aren't affected by poor copy protection because they aren't using legal copies to begin with? It's the outlaws who should be punished, not the people who are law-abiding to begin with. That's just stupid. The only ones who should be sorry about this are those who have been making a killing by selling cracked Starforce-free copies of whatever.

I have no objection to protecting property, or intellectual property, or creative work, but I have a serious problem when Company A forces something on me that totally craps up my work or something Company B made. I don't make my yard look clean by trashing my neighbor's.

As long as Ubi's choice of copy protection doesn't cause a SNAFU on my PC - as long as it doesn't operate in an invasive way like Starforce - I don't care what they use.

Now, all that said, while I consider this announcement good news, to me it's good news in the sense that something I consider to be a problem is going to get fixed. I do agree with you that it's wise not to celebrate by rioting in the streets. I'm just thankful they've apparently made the decision to drop Starforce, and hope that their next choice for copy protection turns out better.

[Skubber]

I have already asked for a patch to games like Silent Hunter III so I and many orthers can play it again with out worry.


I emphatically agree. :rock:
It would be so nice to play SHII without having my DVD drive spin up to ten gazillion rpms to accomodate the "protection system".

[Onkel Neal]

For SHIV we will not have "I hate SF threads" but "I hate .... threads"



Yep. And I'm sure some new hard-to-crack copy protection will come along someday....will be interesting if the opposition to it looks like anti-SF II, the Sequel.

We'll see....

[PeriscopeDepth]

This is good news! Hopefully, that SHIII patch will come.

PD

[martes86]

For SHIV we will not have "I hate SF threads" but "I hate .... threads"



Yep. And I'm sure some new hard-to-crack copy protection will come along someday....will be interesting if the opposition to it looks like anti-SF II, the Sequel.

We'll see....

Well, I'm sure that lots of the complaints won't have anything to do with piracy reasons, but with sowtware/hardware damage. Just like now.
Lots of my Flotilla friends had these problems, and they had their original SH3 version. I also had some problems, but I also have my retail game. Piracy had nothing to do with any complaints here. That's what I think, and what I have seen.

Cheers :rock:

[Onkel Neal]

For SHIV we will not have "I hate SF threads" but "I hate .... threads"



Yep. And I'm sure some new hard-to-crack copy protection will come along someday....will be interesting if the opposition to it looks like anti-SF II, the Sequel.

We'll see....

Well, I'm sure that lots of the complaints won't have anything to do with piracy reasons, but with sowtware/hardware damage. Just like now.



How can you be sure a different copy protection system will cause "damage"? What if they make a copy protection that is crack proof? Will people find something to have a witchhunt over?

It has never been proven SF does anything detrimental to hardware. I've only seen "my CD-rom is spinning a million rpm, help! It's scary, and my burner stopped working and I blame SF, not the piracy tools I have. I know, all the people who claim SF damaged their system are legit software users. The people who copy games are decently silent. ;)

[jumpy]

I know, all the people who claim SF damaged their system are legit software users. The people who copy games are decently silent. ;)

lol very droll Neal :lol:
But all said and done, I think i'm gonna have to wait for any future release of SHIV to be on the shelves for a few months to see how things go with other users first and not snapp it up on pre-order this time round. I'm sure that in any event I'll get plenty of dope here on subsim about this... as usual hehe. With any luck we'll get something that does the job of security without putting the kibosh on users systems :up:

[Soulcommander]

For SHIV we will not have "I hate SF threads" but "I hate .... threads"



Yep. And I'm sure some new hard-to-crack copy protection will come along someday....will be interesting if the opposition to it looks like anti-SF II, the Sequel.

We'll see....

Well, I'm sure that lots of the complaints won't have anything to do with piracy reasons, but with sowtware/hardware damage. Just like now.



How can you be sure a different copy protection system will cause "damage"? What if they make a copy protection that is crack proof? Will people find something to have a witchhunt over?

It has never been proven SF does anything detrimental to hardware. I've only seen "my CD-rom is spinning a million rpm, help! It's scary, and my burner stopped working and I blame SF, not the piracy tools I have. I know, all the people who claim SF damaged their system are legit software users. The people who copy games are decently silent. ;)

Neal all I can say is one of 2 comments here.

1. You either don't get it and you don't do the research and thus you make a comment like this.

2. Or you just love the attention on your site. And thus the controversial statement.

What is it? A little of both?
You obviously can read when I came here in the past to post now can't you?
:hmm:

So think pick up a few magazines, read and listen to radio interviews with folks like Steven Levy if you don't want to believe people like me.

And finally.....get off this craziness spoof that this has been a campaign of hackers trying to take SF down.
Your mocking people that come to your website making idiotic statements like you made above. These are customers that visit your site and have had problems with the protection.

If you want to discus this in private then give me your tele and I will be glad to chat with you.
I can get you in touch with an attorney that you can chat with as well that has some vital info about the class action against Ubi.

Rock on!



LOL

:rock:

Soul

[Onkel Neal]

With any luck we'll get something that does the job of security without putting the kibosh on users systems :up:

Agreed 100%. At least if SH4 will not have SF, I won't have to jack up 500 topics in the SH4 forum for trying to boycott the game :up:

[Soulcommander]

With any luck we'll get something that does the job of security without putting the kibosh on users systems :up:

Agreed 100%. At least if SH4 will not have SF, I won't have to jack up 500 topics in the SH4 forum for trying to boycott the game :up:
Be thankful your site isn't dead and you can jack up whatever you need to jack!

:up:

[Onkel Neal]

1. You either don't get it and you don't do the research and thus you make a comment like this.

So think pick up a few magazines, read and listen to radio interviews with folks like Steven Levy if you don't want to believe people like me.


Soul

What can I say? I have to see hard facts :) I know there are a LOT of casual game copiers out there (you may not like me calling them pirates, and I never said it was a "hacker campaign"). Among friends and associates, a lot of games, programs, software... have been trotted out, in front of me, and they were copies. Copied by other friends, or downloaded from peer-to-peer, or warez.

I also know that once a movement like anti-something gets going, there's plenty of room on the bandwagon, and people pile on. I subscribe to Google News alert, using the word "Starforce", and I keep up with the news. I noticed that several websites posted new that "Futuremark has uncovered that Starforce DRM said to force reboots." When Futuremark publicly said that no, they did not make that claim, it was a poster on their forums, I did not see any of these website retract the news item, or correct it. That's pretty biased.



I'm not singling out you as dishonest or a game copier, and I never said SF was all it claims to be (they certainly have crappy public relations!), and I acknowledge SF may cause some/all the issues claimed. But I never saw any real proof.

[Onkel Neal]

With any luck we'll get something that does the job of security without putting the kibosh on users systems :up:

Agreed 100%. At least if SH4 will not have SF, I won't have to jack up 500 topics in the SH4 forum for trying to boycott the game :up:
Be thankful your site isn't dead and you can jack up whatever you need to jack!

:up:

Why would I worry about my site being dead? I don't undertand that.

[Skybird]

Evidence? Got SF on two different systems. CD after putting them in not recognized until 3-4 minutes passed by, burning data backups on CD lasted up to 20-30 minutes, were usually it would be done in 2-3 minutes.

Got rid of SF, and problems gone.

Problem recreated on - well, on damn many different machines out there, and technically explained in a way that so far is not prooved wrong or contradicted by anyone. web forums were flooded with similiar descriptions.

All evidence I need. The information and proof is out there since long. It's just the question if one wants to ignore it, or wants to see it.

[Skybird]

How can you be sure a different copy protection system will cause "damage"? What if they make a copy protection that is crack proof? Will people find something to have a witchhunt over?

It has never been proven SF does anything detrimental to hardware. I've only seen "my CD-rom is spinning a million rpm, help! It's scary, and my burner stopped working and I blame SF, not the piracy tools I have. I know, all the people who claim SF damaged their system are legit software users. The people who copy games are decently silent. ;)

I have no piracy tools, nor do I run a single illegal copy of anything. It is almost a personal offending that you generalize frustrated customers all to be pirates. Kind of preemptive warfare against potential pirates that are not yet pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, could become pirates.

I also have no sympathy for the first statement, that SF only was debated, because, as you imply, people were bored and not entertained. If there is no crappy protection software with a game, maybe the game itself would be debated then. Which is perfectly okay, I think.
Hasn't it always been like this?

[Onkel Neal]

I have no piracy tools, nor do I run a single illegal copy of anything. It is almost a personal offending that you generalize frustrated customers all to be pirates. Kind of preemptive warfare against potential pirates that are not yet pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, could become pirates.



Strange how so many people say the same thing; we're not pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, we could become pirates. Does not sound like they have strong convictions. They're just a bad experience with copy protection from becoming pirates.

[Onkel Neal]

Evidence? Got SF on two different systems. CD after putting them in not recognized until 3-4 minutes passed by, burning data backups on CD lasted up to 20-30 minutes, were usually it would be done in 2-3 minutes.

Got rid of SF, and problems gone.



All evidence I need. The information and proof is out there since long. It's just the question if one wants to ignore it, or wants to see it.

That's not evidence, Skybird. That's your claim, made on the Internet. In court, it would barely pass as hearsay. Sure, it's all the evidence you need but maybe someone who has not met you or seen your computer would like a little more to go on.

If I post tomorrow that Silent Hunter 3 screwed up my computer, is that evidence? If I say that your e-mail sent me a virus and erased my hardrive, is that evidence? You want evidence who shot Kennedy? I know who it was, it was a guy named George Bronlow. Now, you have the evidence.

[Takeda Shingen]

Be thankful your site isn't dead and you can jack up whatever you need to jack!

Do I smell the nauseating aroma of envy? You're much too tense, relax. Besides, you should be pleased, as you have saved us from the invisible menace of Starforce. Was it ever real? Did it ever exist? Well, we don't know, but the important thing is that you have saved us from it.

So, what will you do with your time now? What becomes of heroes when they are no longer needed?

[Seeadler]

Ubisoft must convince me with better customer support over a longer period and more contents in their games before I buy again games of those.

The renouncement of StarForce points already into the right direction for me, but momentarily Ubisoft stands still on my list of companies which I don't support by purchasing games of them, they lost to much reputation of me in the past.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

two questions...

1- do we get a chance to buy a version of SH3 sans SF for $5, or will they be sending us a free copy in the mail? :lol:

2- this aint another April Fools joke is it... one that didn't get out in the first batch :D


--Mike

[SilentOtto]

So, just for your information on a similar case now quite famous, I post some links about SONY's XCP music CD protection system. This system is technically, in many ways similar to Starforce (installs stealthly, has Ring 0 (super user) permissions, and may be used by hackers to get inside systems which have this tech).

Well, Sony is already retiring this system...

Now, I'm not in for a fight, but I think truth and facts must be told, and not disregarded as "hacker stuff" or "child stuff". This is about technology, about our systems, our rights and freedoms. So there are facts 4 ya:

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004144.php

http://news.com.com/Microsoft+will+wipe+Sonys+rootkit/2100-1002_3-5949041.html

http://news.com.com/FAQ+Sonys+rootkit+CDs/2100-1029_3-5946760.html

http://www.masternewmedia.org/sony_rootkit/sony_rootkit_news/chronology_of_sony_rootkit_scandal_Cory_Doctorow_r eports_20051203.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCP

http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2005-11-17-sony-rootkit_x.htm

http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/titles.html

BTW Sony is probably going to lose this lawsuit they have in NY:
(this is from the sony link)

A settlement has been proposed in a lawsuit brought against SONY BMG Music Entertainment, Inc., SunnComm International Inc., and First 4 Internet, Ltd. ("Defendants"). The lawsuit, In re SONY BMG CD Technologies Litigation, Case No. 1:05-cv-09575-NRB, is pending in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York and relates to XCP and MediaMax content protection software installed on certain SONY BMG music CDs.

The Settlement resolves claims that the Defendants manufactured and sold CDs containing XCP and MediaMax software without adequately disclosing the limitations the software imposes on the use of the CDs and the security vulnerabilities it creates. The Defendants have denied that they did anything wrong.

[Gizzmoe]

So, just for your information on a similar case now quite famous, I post some links about SONY's XCP music CD protection system. This system is technically, in many ways similar to Starforce (installs stealthly, has Ring 0 (super user) permissions, and may be used by hackers to get inside systems which have this tech).

The system is quite different. XCP uses real cloaking techniques (every part of it is basically 100% invisible), SF doesn´t. By the way, dozens of other programs, for example many anti-virus programs, have Ring 0 permissions, I don´t see many people complain about that...

[DeepSix]

I have no piracy tools, nor do I run a single illegal copy of anything. It is almost a personal offending that you generalize frustrated customers all to be pirates. Kind of preemptive warfare against potential pirates that are not yet pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, could become pirates.



Strange how so many people say the same thing; we're not pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, we could become pirates. Does not sound like they have strong convictions. They're just a bad experience with copy protection from becoming pirates.

I think you misunderstood him, Neal. Unless I'm mistaken, Skybird means that you're assuming guilt until they're proven innocent. He's not saying anybody wants to be a pirate or that they don't have convictions.

Neal, you have a terrific site, and I don't think you have to worry about it dieing anytime soon, but there is, on the part of those who operate it, a pronounced lack of impartiality where the subject of SF is concerned. The fact that you and the mods always appear to defend SF is, in my opinion, starting many more fires than you're putting out.

Sorry, that's just my observation. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your site, so I'm shuttin' up now. Delete me, ban me, do whatever, but that's how I see it.

[Gizzmoe]

The fact that you and the mods always appear to defend SF is, in my opinion, starting many more fires than you're putting out.

Though none of "us" ever said that SF is 100% harmless.

[Cheapskate]

So, what will you do with your time now? What becomes of heroes when they are no longer needed?

Maybe they just sit back, bathing in the warm afterglow of public acclaim for their efforts, and reflecting on a job well done. :D

[Takeda Shingen]

So, what will you do with your time now? What becomes of heroes when they are no longer needed?

Maybe they just sit back, bathing in the warm afterglow of public acclaim for their efforts, and reflecting on a job well done. :D

But, alas, it is Maundy Thursday, and we all know what happens after supper.

[CCIP]

Neal, with all due respect, can't we all agree that Starforce was an overly-invasive piece of software - and, just as importantly, Starforce the company was notorious for refusing to acknowledge any problems, throwing accusations at the players themselves, and just general bad PR. It was impossible to hold Starforce accountable on anything, and their location in Russia only helped them on that.

Starforce wouldn't be singled out if there weren't any reason for it. There is no other protection scheme that has gathered this much hostility that I know of - even if they occasionally caused trouble for legit users. I don't think it's fair to say that "Anti-Starforce = Anti-Copy-Protection". But everyone will be happier if there is a fairer, less invasive copy protection scheme with a more responsible company. Frankly, I'd be quite satisfied if SHIV arrived with a USB key.

[goldorak]

two questions...

1- do we get a chance to buy a version of SH3 sans SF for $5, or will they be sending us a free copy in the mail? :lol:
--Mike

I don't think so, Ubisoft is not known to use less invasive or no copy protection on their budget titles.
So don't get your hopes up on this.
:cry:

[Soulcommander]

Neal, this statement you wrote:
What if they make a copy protection that is crack proof? Will people find something to have a witchhunt over?
Is why I made the comment a campaign of "hackers"
What does that statement you made make a person think of?
That all of us were after Starforce because it was hard to crack, thats what it makes me think of.

So next time if thats not the point you are tring tomake then be more specific and on target.

As far as my comment about being thankful you site isn't dead....
If you need clarification, here it is.

You have traffic on your site. BE THANKFUL you do and your not the only only one sitting in front of your monitor staring at nothing but your own posts.

And as far as this thread is concerned....
I see moderators working here to keep things jumping and keep posters posting.
Take my first post for what it's worth. Nothing more or less.
Sure post your happiness over the news, sure post your unhappiness over the news but why throw the topic way off into a discussion of what customers will do next.
Wait and see.

See this post please for those of you wondering about the news of Ubi's Un official announcement: http://r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=142


:rotfl: for now im feeling like a burden has been lifted and customers have possibly won only becasue they were unfairly treated and disrepected by Starforce Tech.
:up:

[Drebbel]

The fact that you and the mods always appear to defend SF is, in my opinion, starting many more fires than you're putting out.

That is mainly because we not whimps or pussys, we not afraid to start any fires.

Most moderators will be in favor of copyright protection, but most moderators are against errors in SF or possible malicious code. Therefore (and me speaking for myself now) we would like to see an improved SF that adresses the concerns of the people. But we are not shouting from the roof tops that we hate SF and never will get a game again with SF.

Just seems that lot of people are just jumping on the "I hate SF bandwagon without thinking about it. Is quite a eye opener for me that it is so easy to assemble a huge crowed to attack and kill something ...............

Drebbel (with my moderator hat on)

[Skybird]

I have no piracy tools, nor do I run a single illegal copy of anything. It is almost a personal offending that you generalize frustrated customers all to be pirates. Kind of preemptive warfare against potential pirates that are not yet pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, could become pirates.



Strange how so many people say the same thing; we're not pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, we could become pirates. Does not sound like they have strong convictions. They're just a bad experience with copy protection from becoming pirates.

I think you misunderstood him, Neal. Unless I'm mistaken, Skybird means that you're assuming guilt until they're proven innocent. He's not saying anybody wants to be a pirate or that they don't have convictions.

Exactly. And Neal, you are right, your simple claim that SH3 broke your system would not mean much to me. but if you describe the way it did precisely, and then we see that others share the same experience, and they are not few, but many, and the pattern repeats itself time and again, then... let's say some cognitive processes start to come into higher gear... as I said, the question is not if the problems had been documented or not. The documentation is there, since long, repeatedly, time and again, again and again and again. The question is if one wants to see it, or if one wants to ignore it.

I must unfortunately agree concerning the suspicious position of moderators, who always, no matter what the cost is, seem to be in favour of SF. If Drebbel thinks this is because they are brave and courageous, then he must have lost his senses. For me the debate about Sf certainly had nothing to do with courage and balls, such argument is ridiculous in this context. Having been engaged in several of such harsh fights about this myself, I remember too well how frustrating this stubborn ignorrance is we often were facing from the side of always the same names. It's as if one is speaking to walls. Whatever one was saying, got ignored, or turned in one's mouth. Argument was ignored, or distorted. Information was ignored, and wiped off the table. If these wall-like guys would have had their ways, we still would have SF, and would have it for the years to come. The question was often on my mind what benefits these people do have from seeing sales of SF-infested software being unharmed by any hindering discussion damaging SF's credibility.

But all this is no more needed. UBI, as one of the biggest players, abandones SF, and that will be the starting shot for others to follow. SF is doomed to fall. And it is not really interesting anymore if Neal, Drebbel and Gizzmoe like that or not. :lol: :-j

Come up with another copy protection scheme, less intrusive, and less negative for the functionality and efficiency of my system, and the security standard of my internet activities. You will not hear any complaint from me (like for example noone ever heared me complaining about SBP coming with a dongle - a deadly sin for many people when mentioning in their presence the word "dongle"). Copy protection is not something I have a problem with. Starforce in special was the thing that was unacceptable for me, due to repeated bad experience that had been replicated and confirmed by oh so many people thorughout the world.

[DeepSix]

That is mainly because we not whimps or pussys....

I wasn't suggesting that you were.

Most moderators will be in favor of copyright protection, but most moderators are against errors in SF or possible malicious code.

I'm in favor of copy protection. I'm opposed to invasive or malicious copy protection, and I consider SF to be in that category (see my post on page one). So we sort of agree on that.

Just seems that lot of people are just jumping on the "I hate SF bandwagon without thinking about it.

Maybe some are. But I've been opposed to SF almost since the day I bought SH3. Look at when I joined subsim and search my posts on SF. I have definitely "thought about it."

[kiwi_2005]

I make backup copies of the original, providing I still got the original i fail to see what is unlawfull about this? nothing wrong with using a fix to avoid having to throw in the original disks everytime. Im not a pirate nor make copies and hand them out. I just make backups of my games. Same as if making backups of your important data, games to me are very important data! Ive had over the years drives chew the disks or ingrain deep scratches on them where they become unplayable the drives at times will not read the disk properly so the disk spins at high speeds and jumps when this happens you can garrantee there be ingrain perfect circle scratches on it which the disk then becomes unplayable. Its history. Its not my drive as she'll play other disks perfectly. I was using the original sh3 disk for a couple of months before i made a backup of it, the original has small scratches already on it. One day they might create disks where sratches will be impossible to occur, only then i'll have no need to do backups.

[Gizzmoe]

I must unfortunately agree concerning the suspicious position of moderators, who always, no matter what the cost is, seem to be in favour of SF.

All you did in the past 365 days or so is to b1tch, whine and moan about SF. Not to forget posting wild analogies. You did absolutely nothing to help people, NOTHING! I tried to be there for our community, I tried to post helpful advice, I helped dozens of people with their SF problems. And I tried to put things into perspective and ask critical questions when someone posted negative informations about SF. I wanted to find out more about SF, I spent hours on the phone talking to Soulcommander.

You, Skybird, can be proud of nothing in that regard.

[Onkel Neal]

Neal, with all due respect, can't we all agree that Starforce .... the company was notorious for refusing to acknowledge any problems, throwing accusations at the players themselves, and just general bad PR. It was impossible to hold Starforce accountable on anything, and their location in Russia only helped them on that.

Sure, I agree with that. :yep: I took them to task over this:
Starforce forum admin publishes torrent links (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49717&highlight=starforce)


Starforce wouldn't be singled out if there weren't any reason for it. There is no other protection scheme that has gathered this much hostility that I know of - even if they occasionally caused trouble for legit users. I don't think it's fair to say that "Anti-Starforce = Anti-Copy-Protection". But everyone will be happier if there is a fairer, less invasive copy protection scheme with a more responsible company. Frankly, I'd be quite satisfied if SHIV arrived with a USB key.

I hope you're right.

[Onkel Neal]

I have no piracy tools, nor do I run a single illegal copy of anything. It is almost a personal offending that you generalize frustrated customers all to be pirates. Kind of preemptive warfare against potential pirates that are not yet pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, could become pirates.



Strange how so many people say the same thing; we're not pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, we could become pirates. Does not sound like they have strong convictions. They're just a bad experience with copy protection from becoming pirates.

I think you misunderstood him, Neal. Unless I'm mistaken, Skybird means that you're assuming guilt until they're proven innocent. He's not saying anybody wants to be a pirate or that they don't have convictions.

Neal, you have a terrific site, and I don't think you have to worry about it dieing anytime soon, but there is, on the part of those who operate it, a pronounced lack of impartiality where the subject of SF is concerned. The fact that you and the mods always appear to defend SF is, in my opinion, starting many more fires than you're putting out.

Sorry, that's just my observation. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your site, so I'm shuttin' up now. Delete me, ban me, do whatever, but that's how I see it.

I hope I am not giving the impression that any banning is going come out of this discussion, certainly not you. Your opinion is given in a calm, straight-forward fashion.

What I understood Skybird to say is people don't want to become pirates but "maybe they will" if angered or something (I guess)... "potential pirates that are not yet pirates but maybe, eventually, who knows, could become pirates".... I'm not sure what he's getting at with all those potential future possible maybe's. :o

The mods are entitled to decide how they see this on an individual basis. I don't think I have asked any of them to agree with me, I have asked them not to let a possibly excessive amount of potential anti-SF ranting, who knows, maybe, eventually disrupt normal forum decorum. :hmm: I mean, discuss it but not let it dominate the discussion in a forum about a game, not copy protection. For example, Soulcommander's posts are almost all anti-SF posts, but he's been free to post.

thanks for your thoughts
Neal

[Onkel Neal]

I must unfortunately agree concerning the suspicious position of moderators, who always, no matter what the cost is, seem to be in favour of SF. If Drebbel thinks this is because they are brave and courageous, then he must have lost his senses. For me the debate about Sf certainly had nothing to do with courage and balls, such argument is ridiculous in this context.

No, you are a moderator and you are not in favor of SF. Have I ever told you, because you are a Subsim moderator, to change your opinion? Did I ask you to change your Steel Beasts Pro review because it had a mini-rant about SF? No, I did not.

What Drebbel is saying is some of us don't fall in line with a mob. You yourself have stated, it takes balls to stand with one's convictions.

But basically, you're wrong in general..."the suspicious position of moderators, who always, no matter what the cost is, seem to be in favour of SF". I have not asked the other forum moderators but as for me, I am not in favor of, nor against SF. You seem to think we've made up our minds and chosen sides. It seems to you, not to be against SF must mean we are for it. Sounds like your favorite President, eh? :ping:

[Onkel Neal]

Neal, this statement you wrote:
What if they make a copy protection that is crack proof? Will people find something to have a witchhunt over?
Is why I made the comment a campaign of "hackers"
What does that statement you made make a person think of?
That all of us were after Starforce because it was hard to crack, thats what it makes me think of.

So next time if thats not the point you are tring tomake then be more specific and on target.

As far as my comment about being thankful you site isn't dead....
If you need clarification, here it is.

You have traffic on your site. BE THANKFUL you do and your not the only only one sitting in front of your monitor staring at nothing but your own posts.



Ok, fair enough.

Although it may appear to some that I "support" Starforce, it is more accurate to say I support copyright protection and that I am leery of accepting the claims that SF is evil and invasive to lawfully equipped computer systems. Let me state it again: I don't reject these claims, I simply have yet to see substantiated, legitimate testing from unbiased parties with established credibility. If SF is that bad for that many people, I have to think it could be proven so under controlled circumstances.

Am I biased in favor of SF? No. Remember, I made the posting about SF's forum moderator putting up a pirate link (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49717&highlight=starforce)to a game. (You were surprised I would post that). That pointed out one of SF's clumsy and borderline-stupid PR maneuvers, of which there have been several. On the other hand, as I said earlier in this post, I get Google News Alerts on "Starforce". Some of these "press" websites show a lot of bias, they fail to make retractions, and they appear to be in sympathy with the anti-SF crowd. They must be from the Dan Rather school of journalism. In my eyes, that does not help the anti-SF movement, it makes them appear willing to say or do anything to bring SF down, and I would think the goal is to bring SF down IF it is guilty as charged. Not to trump up evidence.

I've been approached by several players and asked to come out in opposition to Starforce, but I cannot do that any more than I could champion Starforce, because Subsim is just a simple review and discussion website. We're not equipped to make the necessary tests and evaluations to validate or reject the claims that SF can "mess up" PCs. How would I know? I have three SF-equipped games and have not experienced any problems of note. A couple months ago my DVD burner stopped recording normally. I updated the firmware and drivers and it has been fine ever since. But I don't forget that I have experienced these kind of problems with computer-related hardware long before SF existed.

If MSNBC, PC Gamer, Forbes, WSJ, etc published accurate tests that proved SF was invasive and destructive, Subsim would accept the results in a second. It's not responsible for us to do otherwise without better evidence.

In some respects, I am glad Ubisoft may/will drop SF, because I am tired of hearing about it from both sides. I sure don't want it cluttering up the discussion about SH4. Pack a USB key with each game, like CCIP suggested. (Is that foolproof, by the way?)

cheers
Neal

PS: If Ubi does not use SF for SH4, is everyone in the Western world going to buy a copy to show support? :-j

[DeepSix]

Neal, re all of the above - Fair enough for me; good points and well said. Still think you misunderstood Skybird, but I understand where you're coming from.

"They must be from the Dan Rather school of journalism."

:rotfl: Well, in that case I just have one word for you. "Courage." ;)

And yes, at this point I am planning to buy SH4. :)

[Skybird]

I must unfortunately agree concerning the suspicious position of moderators, who always, no matter what the cost is, seem to be in favour of SF. If Drebbel thinks this is because they are brave and courageous, then he must have lost his senses. For me the debate about Sf certainly had nothing to do with courage and balls, such argument is ridiculous in this context.

No, you are a moderator and you are not in favor of SF. Have I ever told you, because you are a Subsim moderator, to change your opinion? Did I ask you to change your Steel Beasts Pro review because it had a mini-rant about SF? No, I did not.

What Drebbel is saying is some of us don't fall in line with a mob. You yourself have stated, it takes balls to stand with one's convictions.

But basically, you're wrong in general..."the suspicious position of moderators, who always, no matter what the cost is, seem to be in favour of SF". I have not asked the other forum moderators but as for me, I am not in favor of, nor against SF. You seem to think we've made up our minds and chosen sides. It seems to you, not to be against SF must mean we are for it. Sounds like your favorite President, eh? :ping:
Fair enough. I was talking on impressions being given, repeatedly. what I said had been asked by others before, too. It sometimes was ridiculous indeed. I have especially one name on mind with whom I repeatedly collided over this, even personally. And Drebbel's last post, combining a factual issue with qualities like courage or cowardliness, did not really help to tame angry thoughts. Concerning SBP, fact is: if it would have come with SF, there wouldn't have been a review, for I wouldn't have bought it, and never would.

Let's leave all this behind.

[Skybird]

I must unfortunately agree concerning the suspicious position of moderators, who always, no matter what the cost is, seem to be in favour of SF.

All you did in the past 365 days or so is to b1tch, whine and moan about SF. Not to forget posting wild analogies. You did absolutely nothing to help people, NOTHING! I tried to be there for our community, I tried to post helpful advice, I helped dozens of people with their SF problems. And I tried to put things into perspective and ask critical questions when someone posted negative informations about SF. I wanted to find out more about SF, I spent hours on the phone talking to Soulcommander.

You, Skybird, can be proud of nothing in that regard.

Trying again to start one of your useless fights? Accusing people pointing at the risks and dangers of SF being unconstructive? While you all too willingly all the time gave the impression that it is harmless to run into this unprepared? Always having ignored constructive information being pointed out to you? Accusing me of personally attacking you while point for point invalidating your heavily biased, always one-sided remarks and generalizations of how bad customers must be by character if they do not accept SF being there? Holding all of them responsible for being eager to out themselves as pirates? Threatening me with moderator's sanctions if I do not submit to your superior "knowledge" of how harmless and overhyped it all is, labelling my resistance as a personal attack on you, accusing me of telling lies about you or SF? Claiming to be personally offended? Remember how it ended the last time with all this? And even now you cannot help yourself to start it all over again? Start the name-calling again, while I thought about you above, but did not mention you, to let it rest? Your perspective never has been different from that all critics are piriates, Sf is completely harmless, and that there is no valid information at all out there. All links, information, construcive counterargument - always ignored, never adressed. You always ignored any constructive reply saying something different then what you want SF to be perceived as. I was not the first and not the last whose suspicions you raised with your very obvious bias, at the same time saying you were not in defense of SF - good joke. I also was not the only one with whom you seek fighting, though you probably collided with noone more massively than with me.

Warning people about dangers - not being a help for people. Your own wordings speaks volumes. I criticised SF - and you talk of "not being of help for the community". That tells all about you, and it never was different. From now on, concerning SF you are fighting a useless fight. Go ahead, waste your time. But I let play you alone from now on.

[Gizzmoe]

What a load of complete and utter nonsense. I have nothing more to say about this.

[Skybird]

What a load of complete and utter nonsense. I have nothing more to say about this.

Impressive. Indirectly claiming to stand on the morally superior ground. You're one piece of work, really.

[Drebbel]

The key is in my hand guys. Don't let me lock this thread !

Drebbel (with my moderator hat on)

[Skybird]

Drebbel, please lock this thread. nothing good can come from leave it open. Maybe even delete it all.

[Drebbel]

Drebbel, please lock this thread. nothing good can come from leave it open. Maybe even delete it all.

You just have to try harder to make it a nice and interesting thread ! :P

[Seminole]

Since SHIII was cracked within 24-48 hours of release it is apparent that StarForce or any other such kind of protection scheme is utterly futile, a waste of resources and investment capital, , and rather than protect the producer only serves to tick off the buyers.

Copy protection works best as a source of arguments and quarrels....other than that it is pretty much worthless.

The most effective copy protection,it seems, is making a product so lousy that nobody but nobody wants to copy it..... :lol: ...see Luftwaffe Commander....

[Onkel Neal]

Drebbel, please lock this thread. nothing good can come from leave it open. Maybe even delete it all.

As you know, we are not supposed to delete threads except in rare cases where they are very short and consist of spamming for viagra or some hate speech, or illegal download links. ;) If we delete a thread like this, it will compel people to repeat the same discussion in a new thread.

[TLAM Strike]

As you know, we are not supposed to delete threads except in rare cases where they are very short and consist of spamming for viagra or some hate speech, or illegal download links. ;)

CLCIK HEREE to downl oad :llegal v1agra to increase your Pen1$ size at your online cas1no straight from the Klan! (www.geocities.com/billds9)

[martes86]

This thread is boiling. :o

SF is over, at least in Ubi, and SH3 already has SF. We can't change any of those two previous things (well, the second one yes, with some tricks I won't explain here), so why keep it so violent? You should cool down a little, and realise that here, discussing SF as if it still was a problem is a waste of time. No one seems to be changing his opinion (strong ideas, that's good), so why to waste more energy on this? It isn't worth it now. Maybe it was still worth a month ago, when we still thought that SF was going into SH4, but now it doesn't make any sense to keep discussing it here in Subsim, at least in such a hard way.

Cheers :rock:

[Drebbel]

Since SHIII was cracked within 24-48 hours of release it is apparent that StarForce or any other such kind of protection scheme is utterly futile, a waste of resources and investment capital,

Same goes for the locks on my house door. A good burglar can get in anyway. So you think I should remove the locks completely ?

:D

[martes86]

Same goes for the locks on my house door. A good burglar can get in anyway. So you think I should remove the locks completely ?

Don't remove them but use some cheaper locks so you can change them easily. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Godalmighty83]

just tried to spread the good news on the x3 forums, it got locked very quickly indeed.

even though i didnt say anything against starforce or even mention piracy at all.

it seems you cant posts some gaming news on gaming sites.
Please post a link to that site please.

original thread -

http://forum2.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=137704

another one that lasted longer, i half suspect mga is that forums equivalent of gizzmoe

http://forum2.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=137953&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

you may have to register to see them though.

[Gizzmoe]

another one that lasted longer, i half suspect mga is that forums equivalent of gizzmoe

No, I´m ten times as worse than him. At least.

[Godalmighty83]

oh i wouldnt know, i havent seen many of mga's posts.

[TteFAboB]

Since SHIII was cracked within 24-48 hours of release it is apparent that StarForce or any other such kind of protection scheme is utterly futile, a waste of resources and investment capital,

Why do you even bother breathing? You're gonna die, eventually, anyway. You are a waste of organic material and atmospheric resources, and to think people wasted so much investments in you to put you in this world, how futile, you should've been donated to a Hot-Dog factory at birth, I'd love to eat your meat while playing SHIII.

:hulk: :/\chop :rotfl:

[jumpy]

Steady on, but unless I mis-read that above post, that's getting a teeny bit personal aint it?

"I'd love to eat your meat while playing SHIII" -oooh-eer missus [/frankie howard]

hmmmm... oookay.. step away from the topic :o

[Godalmighty83]

yeah thats the type of innuendo that gives some navies a dodgy reputation. :)

[Godalmighty83]

<- is someone having fun with the avatars, its not quite the weekend yet for me. ;)

right on the x3 forum i had a sig that refered to but didnt mention by name starforce.

the sig was pulled and i got this pm-

-----------------------------------------------------------------
This is an official warning
I have removed your sig as it was referring to s subject matter that is in locked posts.

If you breech the rules again, the next response will be more severe.


Terrabyte

-----------------------------------------------------------------

1, he could have asked me too change the sig, i would have
2, no mention of starforce is in the forum rules
3, pposting about something in a locked topic is not in the forum rules

poor and heavy handed moderating strikes again! reminds me of the ubi forums although ive never posted there only lurked.

[Antonin]

This is not a victory at all, just a reminder of how difficult it is to protect your own stuff from being stolen.

It is all of us who use illegal software who are too blame companies have to take measures like this.

Please speak for yourself. I've never used 'cracked' anything.

I'm strongly in favor of companies protecting their intellectual property. But not if it causes problems with my computer. Life is too short; I will just not buy a game that puts my DVD drive or CD-R drive at risk.

When I bought a new PC last fall I told the man at the store that I wanted a machine capable of playing several games. SH3 was one of the games I mentioned. But when I read so much about Starforce or whatever it's called, I decided not to buy the game.

I wonder: will Ubisoft now release a "gold" version of SH3 with some other kind of copy protection? I would buy the game instantly, if that happens.

[bradclark1]

I'd love to eat your meat while playing SHIII.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
I really think you opened yourself up on this one.

[AG124]

If Ubisoft released a "Gold" version of SHIII, they better have more things to consider than Starforce. :-j (Not that removal of Starforce shouldn't be an important consideration). But they should be just as concerned with addiing Wolfpacks, more ships, etc, etc, - not the point of this thread though.

I continue to use SHIII with Starforce. I haven't had any problems, but I haven't burned any games for any reason either. I don't make backup copies - I keep them in good condition and would buy new copies if they were damaged (I also keep all the packaging - even the boxes). Maybe this is why I haven't had trouble, although I have burned mix CD's and such without problems.

I am not a pirate whining about copy protection - I don't even want a single backup copy. I just want to play a legally purchased game on one legally purchased computer without having my expensive hardware destroyed - is that really too much to ask? :down:

If I had heard of the problems with Starforce, I would never have risked buying SHIII. Now I own it and enjoy it too much to get rid of it - although I now feel I am taking a serious risk every day which it is installed.

Releasing SHIV without destructive copy-protection would be an unimaginably good idea for Ubisoft. By all means though, include copy-protection. It may be useless for stopping the vast majority of large-scale pirates, but it will stop a few and that is better than nothing. :up:

[kiwi_2005]

:()1: :lurk:

Neal,
Why are there no "Hugs" emoticons. It could come in handy when threads get heated. Hugs are good and can calm a poster down in seconds. :yep:

Gizzmoe your an ok moderator and do give good sound advice. You could of banned me or sent me to the brig for the incident about the Oblivion guide DL, yet you didn't. And skybird your ok too.

Hugs :D

[TLAM Strike]

Why are there no "Hugs" emoticons. It could come in handy when threads get heated. Hugs are good and can calm a poster down in seconds. :yep:

"Do Not Hug Me!"
-Worf, Son of Mogh

:P

[Drebbel]

This is not a victory at all, just a reminder of how difficult it is to protect your own stuff from being stolen.

It is all of us who use illegal software who are too blame companies have to take measures like this.

Please speak for yourself. I've never used 'cracked' anything.

Hmmmm I could swear I wrote It is all of us who use illegal software who are too blame ...

So I do not understand your remark at all. Guess something is lost in translation somewhere. :-)

[Skybird]

Who do you mean when saying: "us"?

I certainly do not consider a pirate or user of illegal software being a honorable member of this community, at last. "All of us who use..." ?

And why is the interests of a company always automatzically rated higher than the interests of those user who are no pirates, and bought their software in an ordinary way? why do companies have the right to impose the risk of technological problems on honest customers because of that? And why are honest customers expected to accept that arrangement?

[Onkel Neal]

Who do you mean when saying: "us"?

I certainly do not consider a pirate or user of illegal software being a honorable member of this community, at last. "All of us who use..." ?

And why is the interests of a company always automatzically rated higher than the interests of those user who are no pirates, and bought their software in an ordinary way? why do companies have the right to impose the risk of technological problems on honest customers because of that? And why are honest customers expected to accept that arrangement?

Why does everyone have to go through metal detectors at an airport? Shouldn't it just be the terrorists? Would save the rest of us a lot of time.

[Godalmighty83]

then surely everyone should be thrown into prison and only released when deamed to be innocent.

there are many many reverse-role arguments that could be used and it isnt helpful going down that route.

[DeepSix]

Let's execute all the shifty-looking ones before they commit whatever crime I know they're plotting.:nope:

[Onkel Neal]

then surely everyone should be thrown into prison and only released when deamed to be innocent.

there are many many reverse-role arguments that could be used and it isnt helpful going down that route.

Thanks, Godalmighty83, you've demonstrated the textbook straw man arguememnt.

No, we don't jail or execute everyone. But we do check everyone. We have to if we want any chance of stopping them.

Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:


Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Examples of Straw Man

Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

"Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

[Skybird]

Who do you mean when saying: "us"?

I certainly do not consider a pirate or user of illegal software being a honorable member of this community, at last. "All of us who use..." ?

And why is the interests of a company always automatzically rated higher than the interests of those user who are no pirates, and bought their software in an ordinary way? why do companies have the right to impose the risk of technological problems on honest customers because of that? And why are honest customers expected to accept that arrangement?

Why does everyone have to go through metal detectors at an airport? Shouldn't it just be the terrorists? Would save the rest of us a lot of time.

Metal detector and passive scan for all passengers is one thing. Cutting all of their bellies open to see if they are smuggling something in their stomachs is something different.

Your comparsion does not work. Nor does the often "should I remove the lock on my door"-thing. SF somewhat replaced the lock on your door. Not only does the new one not work reliable, causing you sometimes a headache to get into your flat, you also are not told who else got keys for that lock of yours.

That's why in the end of my meeting with SF I ended up replacing not only the new lock again, but the whole door and frame. Only way to be sure. :)

[Onkel Neal]

Why does everyone have to go through metal detectors at an airport? Shouldn't it just be the terrorists? Would save the rest of us a lot of time.

Metal detector and passive scan for all passengers is one thing. Cutting all of their bellies open to see if they are smuggling something in their stomachs is something different.

Your comparsion does not work. ...


My comparison doesn't work? Lol, why would we cut open stomachs? Don't you know how metal detectors work? They can detect metal--inside--the stomach. No need to cut anyone. But everyone has to be assumed guilty and slightly inconvienenced to try to prevent hijackings. Copy protection must be used on all games CD, even for honest people like you, to try to prevent dishonest people from copying the games.

Maybe some people who go through metal detectors have headaches later, but it didn't bother me ;)

[Soulcommander]

The fact that you and the mods always appear to defend SF is, in my opinion, starting many more fires than you're putting out.

That is mainly because we not whimps or pussys, we not afraid to start any fires.

Most moderators will be in favor of copyright protection, but most moderators are against errors in SF or possible malicious code. Therefore (and me speaking for myself now) we would like to see an improved SF that adresses the concerns of the people. But we are not shouting from the roof tops that we hate SF and never will get a game again with SF.

Just seems that lot of people are just jumping on the "I hate SF bandwagon without thinking about it. Is quite a eye opener for me that it is so easy to assemble a huge crowed to attack and kill something ...............

Drebbel (with my moderator hat on)

You sir are obviously not in the loop.
You can have your Starforce. I have an idea. Why don't you ask Starforce to protect your own personally burned copies of your own software. This way you will feel better about the whole situation. :doh:

After the actions of Starforce over the last year I can't believe you are serious!

They not only attack the hand that feeds them they attack the consumer and their competion.
Sure have at it join Starforce, make them your best friend if it makes you feel good.
Starforce destroys themselves.


Soulcommander

[Skybird]

Why does everyone have to go through metal detectors at an airport? Shouldn't it just be the terrorists? Would save the rest of us a lot of time.

Metal detector and passive scan for all passengers is one thing. Cutting all of their bellies open to see if they are smuggling something in their stomachs is something different.

Your comparsion does not work. ...


My comparison doesn't work? Lol, why would we cut open stomachs? Don't you know how metal detectors work? They can detect metal--inside--the stomach. No need to cut anyone. But everyone has to be assumed guilty and slightly inconvienenced to try to prevent hijackings. Copy protection must be used on all games CD, even for honest people like you, to try to prevent dishonest people from copying the games.

Maybe some people who go through metal detectors have headaches later, but it didn't bother me ;)
Obviously you did not understand my metaphor.

[Soulcommander]

Neal

The mods are entitled to decide how they see this on an individual basis. I don't think I have asked any of them to agree with me, I have asked them not to let a possibly excessive amount of potential anti-SF ranting, who knows, maybe, eventually disrupt normal forum decorum. :hmm: I mean, discuss it but not let it dominate the discussion in a forum about a game, not copy protection. For example, Soulcommander's posts are almost all anti-SF posts, but he's been free to post.

Neal they may come across as anti posts. But your not seeing the whole picture. You weren't involved with any internal things like I was.
View my posts in a positive light. My goal here was to inform.
Just like it was when I posted this thread and you allowed it to go into a debate because again your own moderators were allowed to take it in that direction.

You really need to stop and think about what your saying.

You think I'm some child ranting?

I have managed to accomplish something that I experienced was wrong as well as 1,000s of others did. They may not all be here posting, screaming, or being Anti Starforce on your site. Just because they aren't here doesn't mean this issue was a small one.
You know that.

And as I said in interview after interview, Starforce hurts themselves.
Just as you showed your viewers here on your own forums Neal with the Starforce Bitt torrent post you made. And that wasn't Starforce's ownly mistake, there were many more.


Soulcommander

[Soulcommander]

This is not a victory at all, just a reminder of how difficult it is to protect your own stuff from being stolen.

It is all of us who use illegal software who are too blame companies have to take measures like this.

Please speak for yourself. I've never used 'cracked' anything.

I'm strongly in favor of companies protecting their intellectual property. But not if it causes problems with my computer. Life is too short; I will just not buy a game that puts my DVD drive or CD-R drive at risk.

When I bought a new PC last fall I told the man at the store that I wanted a machine capable of playing several games. SH3 was one of the games I mentioned. But when I read so much about Starforce or whatever it's called, I decided not to buy the game.

I wonder: will Ubisoft now release a "gold" version of SH3 with some other kind of copy protection? I would buy the game instantly, if that happens.

I personally want to interject since Im back here reading all these posts.
I never used the cracks either. Even though many people sent them to me without me asking for them.
I am asking that Ubisoft release an official crack(patch) with No SF protection on it so many of us sitting here with SHIII can play it again with out worry that our new drive is going to fail because of it.

But just in case Ubi doesn't, my SHIII game is still wrapped and ready to be taken back. (If the store will take it back) Some of you aren't that lucky to have wrapped games.

But at the least, I want to try to get you a patch that's official from UBI, no promises on that. But I will try.


Soulcommander

[Murphy]

Stopped in to say "Good job Soulcommander".....Starforce is gone.

When they release a patch, I'll reinstall SHIII......I have a retail copy, I can post a photo if anyone likes....;).

Some people will surly refuse to admit they were wrong, even though Starforce has a class action law suit pending, for their faulty, invasive, and dangerous programming....and UBI has a 5 million dollar law suit pending for even putting the program on their games and distributing it to the public, and even UBI has now rejected the Starforce program on their future games. I'd say this is 'proof' enough that Starforce is a very bad program, not good or healthy to install on anyones computer.

But all this will not convince the doubters to admit they were wrong......wise up Soulcommander, some people are NEVER going to be wrong ;).....it's always 'somebody else's fault'.....must be us 'pirates and hackers' who hate "all" CRP :roll:, not them or Starforce (who actually ARE the pirates and hackers), who are on the wrong side.....lol.....yea, right.

Fight on Soulcommander....people like you are the ones that give the rest of the people the great gains we occasionally make, the fight is simply harder due to the doubters, not impossible....:).

[Silent Sentry]

First Hi to all I am new here, Just ordered SH3, I spent ten years on subs and I have started missing the life I had. I searched thru all the available sub sims and decided to go with SH3, I do not have the game yet so was just doing some reading on here and find this thread. So My question is when I get this game is it safe to use? As this forum shows tons play it but this Starforce thread has me thinking I will be loading a bomb into my computer. Any input would be great for a newcomer.

[Onkel Neal]

I've been playing SH3 and 2 other games with the Starforce copy protection and I've never had any problems. There are people who say they've experienced problems with their DVD writers, but there are also people violently opposed to copy protection who try to scare others from a great game. It's hard to tell if there are legitmate issues with SF, how many people have had problems due to having game copying software and how many legit players have experienced problems that were caused by SF, and not bad/wrong DVD media or other issues. You will never hear someone say "I pirate games and SF wrecked my DVD burner"... everyone who complains about SF is lily white. Maybe some are, who can say?

Like I said, I have not had any problems at all.

[Excalibur Bane]

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Ubisoft to release a patch to remove Starforce. It's not going to happen. They were too lazy to fix the installer of the last patch so it told you the correct version you were installing. You expect them to actually do something complicated? No, I don't think so. Heh.

[Gizzmoe]

It's hard to tell if there are legitmate issues with SF

SF released several driver updates to fix problems, so there definitely are legitimate issues. SF itself is relatively harmless, it´s as so often a combination of factors that can lead to problems.

Many problems and incompatibilities can be fixed by installing the driver update:
http://www.star-force.com/support/sfdrvup.zip

I also never had any problems with my SF-protected games.

[Godalmighty83]

It's hard to tell if there are legitmate issues with SF

SF released several driver updates to fix problems, so there definitely are legitimate issues. SF itself is relatively harmless, it´s as so often a combination of factors that can lead to problems.

Many problems and incompatibilities can be fixed by installing the driver update:
http://www.star-force.com/support/sfdrvup.zip

I also never had any problems with my SF-protected games.

one of the main problems is the combinations of drives, software, hardware and drivers that are out there the majority of gamers with the starforce drivers dont experience problems.

those who dont like SF fall into 3 camps

-1, those who dont like the intrusive method used or the often secret way its installed

-2, those who believe it could be a threat to there hardware or could aid in virus attempts against them

-3, those unlucky 'few' who have had drives fail after installing a SF laden game.

to say 'theres updates so all is good now' is not accurate, the problems that concern groups one and two remain. there is no evidence that the updated drivers are any better then the older ones.

[Gizzmoe]

to say 'theres updates so all is good now' is not accurate, the problems that concern groups one and two remain.

Well, those driver updates were not made to cure mistrust...

there is no evidence that the updated drivers are any better then the older ones.

There are better in a sense that they fixed some problems for some people.

[NeonSamurai]

I dont belive they got rid of the ring 0 permission part of starforce as that is one of the key parts to the program that prevents it being bypassed by other software.

Honestly i just wish the game companies would just learn once and for all that copy protection almost never does the job its suppost to. Ever since the advent of pc's there have been numerous attemps at "securing" the software from illegal duplication, and in Every Single Case every form of copy protection has been removed/bypassed/or breached. At best copy protection stops casual pirates from passing stuff to their friends. Anyone with an internet connection and 1/10th a brain can remove/bypass/etc virtualy all copy protection forms.

Using the "door lock" analogy. A more accurate rendition would be if you could go to the corner store, and pick up a skeleton key or lockpick which will open 99.9% of the doors in your neighborhood. Is it worth bothering trying to put locks on your door if most of the public can bypass them?

Copy protection has never worked, and will never work. Ever. Heck look at the console systems and the extent people went to make copies work, to the extent of physicaly modifing the hardware (soddering on a chip) just so they could use burned cd's in their xbox or playstation. It is utterly impossible to come up with a totaly unbipassable copy protection system. Even if part of the program requires a physical key, you just simply do an end run and remove that part of the code from the program.

Game companies like to point to pirates as lost sales and financial problems. Yet the vast majority of these pirates were never going to buy the game to begin with reguardless of what form of protection existed or not, they are a lost cause and a waste of money to worry about. Legit customers on the other hand dont want to deal with overly invasive protection schemes and the copy protection on a game is now becoming a deciding factor on purchasing the game.

Also often times the game fails not because of piracy but because the company is putting out a shoddy bug ridden game and then refuse to fix it. Well made games sell well, crappy releases and no support games dont. In my opinion the way alot of game companies act now is right on the line of being criminal. They punish and rip off their own customers, put out trash that never should have been released to begin with, then are excedingly rude to their customer base when they complain, refuse to do anything about it, and move on to their next piece of junk game. I personaly have probably wasted hundreds of dollars on games like that, and its gotten to the point where i wont even consider buying from certain companies any more (i wont list names but some of them are among the big boys of game publishig houses.)

As for starforce they are finished, not just because of all that has happened, and that most companies are now droping them like a bad habit, but because starforce itself has now been effectivly fully broken once and for all by one of the major pirate cracking groups (the same group who has done most of the major "starforce protected" releases in the last few months). This group even released an "SKD" of sorts on it. (I know this because as a "White hat" part of my job is keeping tabs on the various underground scenes). Except for a bunch of older titles when starforce was new (and that the top line crackers who disable the protection generaly dont go back and crack stuff beyond a certain age, patches/updates are the exception) most of the starforce games are cracked.

So to sum up, yes i think software companies have the right to protect their property, But i realy think they need to wake up and see whats realy going on. Protection schemes effectly dont work, never ever have, never ever will. The best they can hope for with these schemes is stoping the occasional person who is either computer illterate or just doesnt have access to the internet. Thats just the way it is. Hurting their own customers and causing them grief just in the vain attempt to try to stop the unstopable is plain dumb.


Disclaimer: these are entirely my own personal views, and do not reflect in any way on the views/opinions/belives/etc of subsim.com's site, staff, or in anything else in any way shape or form. If anyone wishes to rationaly discuss my views with me in a calm and relaxed manner feel free to do so either publicly or privately.

P.S. I do hope ubi does the right thing and releases a patch/installer for each of their starforce protected games. This would be very very easy for them to do (they just release the original that doesnt have the security imbedded in it.) and would go a long way to restoring alot of customer's faith in them.

[Onkel Neal]

Using the "door lock" analogy. A more accurate rendition would be if you could go to the corner store, and pick up a skeleton key or lockpick which will open 99.9% of the doors in your neighborhood. Is it worth bothering trying to put locks on your door if most of the public can bypass them?

Great analogy! Does that mean you never lock your doors or your car? Your laptop and accounts are not password protected?

Anyway, you said your piece in good form. Two parts of that I can't agree with:

Copy protection has never worked, and will never work.
Copy protection works fine, for most people. There will be some who find a way around it. And I would not say "it will never work", the next system may be ironclad, who knows. It's not impossible to counterfeit currency but most people can't do it, so making currency hard to copy is a worthy goal.

Game companies like to point to pirates as lost sales and financial problems. Yet the vast majority of these pirates were never going to buy the game to begin with ...

I disagree. Can you prove this ? The people who copy games and play them sure go to a lot of trouble to get in the game. If there was no other choice, they would buy some of them--they like games.

I guess I would add that copyright holders are entitled to try and protect their work. Why stop trying. If I wrote a program, it would gall me to see 500,000 gits playing it as they chose.

I'm hoping there will be success in non-invasive copy protection. I think there will be eventually. Anyway, I've had my say, I'll shut up now ;)

[NeonSamurai]

I do lock my doors, but thats because there is no corner store i can go to to get the skeleton key i mentioned, or for the vast majority of other people. Passwords are different because to break them unless the person in question used something based on themselves (ie birthdays names etc) requires heavy duty processing as the password breaker goes through all the millions to billions to trillions of possibilities. But that realy only applies to encrypted stuff, software based passwords can be bypassed.

The truth is it has rarely worked, i remmeber back when pc's were in their infancy before copy protection, and copy protection laws, and your average computerstore had hundreds of disks for sale with pirated games.

One of the first forms of copy protection was the game asking stuff from the manual, which most people solved by simply photocopying the entire manual at work, then came laser holes and bad sectors on the disk, which was circumvented by special coping programs which could duplicate those things, even fake them.

After that they started trying to use serials, and disks that could not be copyied through even special programs at the time, thats when the crackers started apearing and the various piracy groups, such material was redily available provided you knew the right people via bbs.

Then the internet became publicly available and suddenly pirated material and methods of circumventing the protection schemes used was easily available to everyone. It wasnt just friends passing stuff to other friends anymore, but people passing this stuff to anyone and everyone. Since the internet especialy in the last 10 years it has become incredibly easy to obtain pirate software as long as you know where (and how) to look. Most pirate software is now available either the same day as the software is commercialy released, often times even before it hits store shelves. So obviously the protection schemes arnt working.

So back to my original statement, copy protection schemes just dont work, at best in today's time they prevent casual passing of software between friends and associates. They certainly dont stop internet based piracy, and barely even slow it down (the delay is often an hour to a day at best).



As for discussing the statistics of pirates, well its impossible to present solid figures as lets face it, pirates arnt about to take a survey on their illegal activities. In my own proffesional dealings with the various underground/illegal scenes, ive found the vast majority of these people who use pirated software are teenagers aged 12-24, usualy with low or no income who cant afford the games they play, which is why they pirate them. Some may pirate then later buy if they think the game is worth the money they have at their disposal, others wont buy as they dont see the point (ie i can get it for free why should i pay). These people are a write off for the software companies, even if they couldnt pirate the games they still would not be buying them.

Another group is the older adults that either do or dont have the money, but pirate because they dont want to spend their hard erned money, or figure again why bother when they can get it for free. This slice of the population is one of the smallest ones. Would they buy the software if they couldnt pirate it, possibly yes, possibly no, definatly not in the numbers of copies they would pirate vs what they would buy.

Yet another group is people who can afford games, do buy them, but also pirate copies to try out the full game first before sinking their hard erned cash into what could be a piece of trash. Why dont they just use demos? Well the sad truth is, the difference between a demo and full version can be night and day. You might have a crappy demo of a game, but the game itself is great, or you may have a killer demo, but the game itself is utter trash and the demo contained all the best parts to it. So instead they typicaly download the pirate copy, see how the game is, then either buy it, or delete it. I have a number of friends who do this. Is it illegal? yes it is, but i can understand why they do it after being riped off myself so many times. In my opinion these people dont realy harm the industry as they buy the quality games and discard the junk/ripoffs.

Now we get to the actual pirate groups themselves, the people who break and release these games. Most of these people are young adults (18+) to middle aged, all of them are heavily into computers, many even work in the industry itself. For them its a game, the various groups compete with each other to see who can release the next hot game first. They also have specific rules that the group must follow otherwise they risk tarnishing their group's name, and even getting pushed out of the scene. They dont do it for profit, and doing it actualy costs them money (from buying the games, server costs, etc etc). These are the people which cost the companies possible lost sales. With out them, piracy would drop sharply. But they are impossible to remove, they are among the worlds top experts in computers, security, hacking, cracking, etc. They often dont have any phyisical ties to each other and go to great lengths to conceal their real identities. Groups commonly form and disolve based on pressure from federal authorities trying to shut them down. The only ones who get caught are those who get sloppy and make mistakes, however most dont ever get caught.

Lastly we come to what i like to call the bottom feeders. These are the people who take pirated material broken by the above piracy group, burn it to a cd, then try to sell it either online or on the streets. They are the ones that try to make profit off pirated material by selling it to people who dont know how to access it for free online. They are difficult to track down, often involved with various criminal orginisations (russian mafia, etc), and on top of it if given the oppertunity will try to defraud those who do try to purchase from them. They are universialy hated by all other pirate types, particularly the release groups, who have been known to go after and tear apart the servers the bottom feeder's use via hacking.


Now out of those groups i mentioned, how many of them are likely to buy these games. How many sales does piracy realy cost the industry. Well we dont know, but it certainly isnt the number the industry likes to claim (which is 100% of pirated copies are lost sales). Myself i would probably ballpark it at around 20% or lower. Most pirates wouldnt buy even a 1/4 of what they pirated.



As for the difficulty in aquiring pirated material, if you know where and how to look. Its no more difficult then going to your local game store and picking up a copy. Sad but true, and that i could easily prove (No i will not show anyone here or anywhere else how to get pirated materials, dont even think of pming me about it).



As for copyright holder's rights yes i agree with you there 100%. Im not arguing for piracy in any way shape or form, i realy dont think that software protection schemes do their jobs. I dont mind non intrusive forms of it. But intrusive, potentialy damaging schemes i have zero tolerance for, they have the right to try to protect their investment, but they dont have the right to run roughshod over my or any other legitimate user's machine, and patience. They also do not have the right to insert any forms of spyware, or adware or other malicious code either.

There will never ever be a successfull non invasive (or even invasive) copy protection. Its utterly impossible and futile to work on, there is always a way to get around it. Even if it meens modifing the hardware to do so. All the game companies are doing is spending even more money on futility, and charging the price to us, the consumer. That is my point. Games dont need heavy duty protection schemes to be successfull, Galactic Civilisations II Dreadlords is just one recent example. Games succeed or fail not because of piracy, but because of how good the game is. Make top notch games and your company will do very well no matter what the pirates may do. Pirates arnt realy worth considering, they are a lost cause, and will never go away.

ps. Neal i respect your opinions, and everyone elses as long as they are presented in a friendly non argumentative tone, no need in my view to shut up :)

[Wim Libaers]

I do lock my doors, but thats because there is no corner store i can go to to get the skeleton key i mentioned, or for the vast majority of other people.

Well, if you can get key blanks and a file, you're pretty close to that for the majority of locks. A Dutch TV station once did a report on the technique (known here as the "klopsleutel", I'm not sure if there is a specific name for it in English). Only a few high-security locks are resistant to this trick.

Even if you have a very secure front door, how secure are the windows? Really, those locks are just to keep honest people honest, it's not that hard to break into most houses. Most people could do it if they wanted to, but it's pretty obviously wrong, and there also is a risk of being seen by the neighbours, even though they'd probably just ignore you (as has been demonstrated by recent events here, most people are perfectly capable of ignoring someone being knifed in the middle of a busy train station).

With game and music copying, you have the added effects that the odds of getting caught are much lower than the odds of getting caught for burglary, and it's not as obviously wrong for many people (sharing stuff with friends is usually considered good, and the only negative effect is on some company, which doesn't lose any phisical posession but just makes less profit). If people get the idea that the company is hurting them (for example with nasty copy protections), they can also start to see it as a way to get their revenge.

[NeonSamurai]

Oh sure there are plenty of ways of bypassing pretty much every form of security, real or virtual/program based. Its a question of how many people have access to the tools and know how to do it. In the case of software piracy, the pirate groups make it easy, they do all the work and provide to the general public the equivelant of keys to all the houses. All the typical user has to do is just follow the basic instructions such as burn this cd, use this cd key, copy this file from here to here. Thats the extent of it pretty much. Thats why its so wide spread as its easy to use, and thanks to the internet easy to access.

Obviously im talking very very generaly in all my posts in this thread and am avoiding any details for the specific reason that anyone browsing this forum who doesnt know how to get their hands on pirated material cant figure it out from my posts. Thats also why i used incorrect terms and am trying to avoid using key words.

My posts on this subject are only inteded to give those who arnt familiar with how piracy works a basic idea of how it does and why i dont think copy protection will ever truely work, with out giving away anything a reader could take and then use to pirate stuff themselves.

If any fellow subsim staff feel i have said too much on the subject, or that i am crossing any improper boundaries with the above posts of mine, ill happily retract, edit, etc. :)

[KG_Jag]

I find it ironic that I have a legit copy of SH 3, but will not put it on my computer because of Starforce and the problems that has caused. Beyond objections of principle, I will not risk damaging my computer--even if it is "only" a 10% chance.

[STEED]

I find it ironic that I have a legit copy of SH 3, but will not put it on my computer because of Starforce and the problems that has caused. Beyond objections of principle, I will not risk damaging my computer--even if it is "only" a 10% chance.

Don't let fear get in the way of a great game. :yep:

[SUBMAN1]

I find it ironic that I have a legit copy of SH 3, but will not put it on my computer because of Starforce and the problems that has caused. Beyond objections of principle, I will not risk damaging my computer--even if it is "only" a 10% chance.

Install SH3 and don't install Starforce then. That is what I did.

[SUBMAN1]

To add my 2 cents here - I disagree with Neal. I have the capability to copy / pirate any game I want, yet I still own the original CD's on every game I play. I have downloaded some versions of games in the past to check them out where a good demo is lacking, and if I liked it, I bought it. Plain and simple. If it was bad, it got deleted. I've done this to CD's as well. DL the CD, if it is good, I bought it. I can't stand not having the originals.

You should see my collection of games - I made software companies rich (I'm well into 5 digits here)! :shifty: I should take a picture one day and post it!

I do have to agree to the Neal however in that some people out there refuse to pay for anything but the is the nature of things - You get the good with the bad in this world. I bet these people also would not buy this same software either, or are lacking the means to do so (such as parents refusing to give the kid cash). THere are probably a half dozen reasons I'm sure. I however do know that there isn't one of them that wouldn't want an original copy of their own.

My mentallity is that I want to support the creation of good software and I am giving my donation to the cause.

-S

[KG_Jag]

Don't let fear get in the way of a great game. :yep:

An update--I waited until a cure for Starforce was available (and time enough for me to find it). I now enjoy SH 3--but jumping through all the necessary hoops was no fun.

[Letum]

A Dutch TV station once did a report on the technique (known here as the "klopsleutel"


:rotfl:
I have seen that.
You do know it was a joke, right?

[FIREWALL]

I have to laugh everytime I hear about Starforce fears.

I've never had a prob with it.

And Ubisoft could give a sh!t if some SubSim members don't buy it if it has Starforce in it.

There happy with the majority of the World that do's. :haha: