Hospital ships

[Collie]

I was out on patrol in a Type IX in mid Atlantic last night. I had missed a convoy and had wasted precious fuel searching for it when out of the mist came a hosptial ship...

A moral dilema started,

- It was unarmed
- Clearly marked
- Alone

What should I do? I even asked my No.1 (the missus) and she said let it go, but it was under the British flag....

I sank it with 4 torps but to make matters worse it took ages to go down so the whole time I felt bad...

My reasoning was it is war and Germany is being bombed with 1000 bomber raids causing firestorms etc.

What would you have done?

[ParaB]

What I would've done? Not sunk it. Hospital ships are protected by the Geneva convention (or to be more precise, the "Adaptation to Maritime War of the Principles of the Geneva Convention", aka Hague X convention).

To sink an unarmed, clearly marked hospital ship is IMO on the same level as machine-gunning sailors in their lifeboats.

[Keelbuster]

I had a similar dilemma recently, but maybe a bit easier - a hospital ship within a military convoy - along with a cruiser, and a PL, and two DDs. I wasn't sure what to do so I sunk the cruiser and the PL (which was clearly transporting troops). I had a real problem with the hospital ship though - i felt like wounded soldiers should get a free ticket out. I 'radioed BdU' and found out that I should spend my last torp on the HS. Reluctantly, I did so. I didn't sink her. Furthermore, call me superstitious, I don't think it's a coincidence that it was my last patrol; the escorts did me in. What goes around comes around.

Kb

[DeepSix]

Hospital ships are off limits for me (along with fishing boats).

[Skubber]

And yet again we ponder the strangeness of war...

Killing is forbidden, but during wartime it is encouraged.

It is OK to starve an enemy by setting up a naval blockade of U-boats, but it is not OK to starve him by sinking helpless fishing boats.

It is Ok to kill perfectly healthy young soldiers, but not OK to kill them if they are wounded in a hospital area/ship.

I am not saying any off these things ought to make sense. I am basically a pacifist – and yet I enjoy playing wargames and FPS games.

Life is full of inconsistencies.

[CWorth]

Just a word of warning...

It is set in the game that if you sink that hospital ship you will loose 10,000 renown points and wont gain anything.So I would think long and hard about it.

So be lucky that ship did not sink Keelbuster.

This is from the Hospital Ships config file..

[Unit]
ClassName=NHOS
UnitType=103
MaxSpeed=18
Length=167
Width=12.3
Mast=37
Draft=7.5
Displacement=12000
RenownAwarded=-10000

Notice the -10,000 renown..

[Keelbuster]

Arg - i had read something about that. But I thought that was a special hospital ship (going from Halifax to england or something), and that others are fair game (especially in convoy). NHOS (neutral hospital?) - maybe there are other types?

Anyway, attacking it was bad enough - the hand of moral revenge was swift and ruthless.

Also, wonder how that translates into tonnage war values - do I lose 10000 tonnes?

Kb

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Arg - i had read something about that. But I thought that was a special hospital ship (going from Halifax to england or something), and that others are fair game (especially in convoy). NHOS (neutral hospital?) - maybe there are other types?

Anyway, attacking it was bad enough - the hand of moral revenge was swift and ruthless.

Also, wonder how that translates into tonnage war values - do I lose 10000 tonnes?

Kb

You should wind up losing 10,000 renown points...

and after the war I suggest staying well clear of Nuremberg.

[pythos1]

It is my understanding that the sinking or attacking of a clearly marked hospital ship (the white ships, with red crosses and the green line) is concidered a war crime punishable by court martial, and death. It is also a war crime to use such a ship as trasport for militarial material, or healthy (operational) soldiers.

Those big white ships were off limits, period.

The Japanese imperial naval staff, along with their other war crimes, were held convicted of destroying a clearly marked hospital ship.

Now, if it a troop ship not marked, then that is fair game. Converted liners are the same deal, but, if they have the red crosses, and green stripe, they are a no go for your fish.

[Herr Karl]

I sank two of them and recieved 6,000 reknown each time.

I've reinstalled GW since then.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I sank two of them and recieved 6,000 reknown each time.

I've reinstalled GW since then.

Herr Karl, Would you PM me if this happens again? (If you receive positive renown that is...) you should get minus 10,000 renown for sinking one.

Afterwards... please stop blowing up the hospital ships!

Feel free to surface next to them and scare the hell out of them... but Nuremburg awaits you if you sink them!

Shame shame shame :nope:

[JScones]

I sank two of them and recieved 6,000 reknown each time.
With this anomaly, and your "not enough crew" problem, are you sure you have correctly installed GW? :hmm: Just seems strange, that's all.

[Gizzmoe]

Herr Karl, Would you PM me if this happens again? (If you receive positive renown that is...) you should get minus 10,000 renown for sinking one.

Isn´t it so that all hospital ships are neutral? I´ve checked the RND and SCR layers, the NHOS ships were Side=0. Defside.cfg also says that Redcross ships are neutral from 1936-47. The modifier for sinking a neutral ship is -1, so when you sink a hospital ship with a RenownAwarded of -10000 then you would get positive renown.

[JScones]

Yeah, I wondered that when I first saw the values. -10000 renown x -1 neutral ship multiplier = +10000 renown. I think renown should be 10000...but then, I don't know these files as well as the ship builders do so thought no more of it (assuming others would have raised it as an issue by now if it was wrong)...

EDIT: Actually, logically I *know* the RenownAwarded value should be +10000. What about ships that change/share nationalities? Their RenownAwarded values are all positive but are driven by the multiplier effect.

Anyway, for someone's consideration or testing...

[DerKaleun]

I also had once an encounter with a lone hospital Ship far away in the atlantic. Had a Type IX then, it was 1941 I think. I gave him a shot from the deckgun in front of his bow, and went alongside to him. I did that, because I wanted to inspect the ship if it´s really a hospital ship. So I stayed one hour alongside him, I guess that´s the time my boarding party need´s to check it up.

If my boarding party wouldn´t return - what they did of coourse :) or he would send a radio message for help, he would end up as fish food. Nothing bad happend, so I wished him a safe trip home, and sailed a away to continue my patrol.

To put it in other words. I NEVER sink hospital ships.

[tycho102]

What would you have done?

Sink it, because given the chance, we would have done the same to the Krauts. That fewer soldiers, and any hit to morale would help the entire effort.

Now, I don't think I'd have gone so far as to machine-gun the life boats, although that might very well have been the most "merciful" thing to do. Heat stroke and dehydration aren't all that simple of a way to go.

But I'd have dropped that hospital ship.

[2019]

What would you have done?
With my deckgun I would cause damage to it's engines.
Leave it just there till a resque ship will arrive, in hope that this might be a worthy ship that i shall strike on.

Lol i'm pretty mean.
I guess I would be a good Nazi captain. :lol:


Anyway it's just a game :up:

[DerKaleun]

I even let a single little merchant go, as we encountered on Dec. 24th. He began to zigzag, I´ve shot a flare as a salute, and sailed away from him without doing any harm to the ship.

[Herr Karl]

I sank two of them and recieved 6,000 reknown each time.

I've reinstalled GW since then.

Herr Karl, Would you PM me if this happens again? (If you receive positive renown that is...) you should get minus 10,000 renown for sinking one.

Afterwards... please stop blowing up the hospital ships!

Feel free to surface next to them and scare the hell out of them... but Nuremburg awaits you if you sink them!

Shame shame shame :nope:

Will do KL, but in my modded Requisition Manual (which I like very much) it now says that it is -10,000 reknown also. Hopefully, I won't come across any more Hospital Ships, and become tempted.
:rotfl:

[Dowly]

You sank a hospital ship! :o Let´s just hope you wont get caught after the war!

Hospital ships are off-limits for me. And as a sligh off topic, they had also an unwritten rule not to attack ships that are picking up survivors.

[Laughing Swordfish]

No way would I knowingly put torpedoes into a hospital ship.

Apart from the obvious moral and international treaty reasons, which make the idea abhorrent, there's some other ones:

There may well be German, or at least friendly nation PWs on board. (Think similar to the Laconia incident)

Certainly civilians and probably women and children

You will have used torpedoes against a non-military, non-strategic and non-commerce target.

Depending on the date of the atrocity, you will have alienated your country and brought down the wrath of the mighty (does this ring a bell?) In WW2 this could bring powerful nations into the war against you, or certainly harden the resolve of those you are supposed to be fighting
Thus making it harder to hunt, and for other boats to hunt legitimate targets in future

You will have given away your position. It's rare that a hospital ship would be far away from a convoy, isn't it?

And even if not hunted down like a rat at the time, your life span is strictly limited to the Nuremberg Trials, and the noose that will most surely be fitted round your neck.

I know it's only a game, but if you only did it to amass renown points, then mate, your girl was right. And why four torpedoes against an unarmed hospital ship? Why not just surface and have some fun with deck gun practice, whilst peppering her lifeboat decks with the AA gun?

Seriously though, I'd scuttle that boat however far you've got with it, and come out of port with a clean one.

Sorry if that sounded a bit harsh, and it was at least a very honest question and thread.

LS

[Kpt. Lehmann]

No way would I knowingly put torpedoes into a hospital ship.

Apart from the obvious moral and international treaty reasons, which make the idea abhorrent, there's some other ones:

There may well be German, or at least friendly nation PWs on board. (Think similar to the Laconia incident)

Certainly civilians and probably women and children

You will have used torpedoes against a non-military, non-strategic and non-commerce target.

Depending on the date of the atrocity, you will have alienated your country and brought down the wrath of the mighty (does this ring a bell?) In WW2 this could bring powerful nations into the war against you, or certainly harden the resolve of those you are supposed to be fighting
Thus making it harder to hunt, and for other boats to hunt legitimate targets in future

You will have given away your position. It's rare that a hospital ship would be far away from a convoy, isn't it?

And even if not hunted down like a rat at the time, your life span is strictly limited to the Nuremberg Trials, and the noose that will most surely be fitted round your neck.

I know it's only a game, but if you only did it to amass renown points, then mate, your girl was right. And why four torpedoes against an unarmed hospital ship? Why not just surface and have some fun with deck gun practice, whilst peppering her lifeboat decks with the AA gun?

Seriously though, I'd scuttle that boat however far you've got with it, and come out of port with a clean one.

Sorry if that sounded a bit harsh, and it was at least a very honest question and thread.

LS

I agree completely. In GW it is my intention to make the torpedoing of a hospital ship a career-ending event.

Furthermore, something that I am eternally sensitive to in relation to GW... is the honor of the sea-going fighting man and woman.

There are bad eggs in every branch of every service everywhere... However, I choose to have a little faith in humanity and believe that even among combatants at war... there are lines that cannot be crossed without giving up one's own humanity.

Certainly crimes and atrocities were committed... but these things overpower the individual fighting man's existence.

Sorry for the sermon.

[Wulfmann]

Before I installed this new GW RND I just modded to my taste I had Hospital ships sailing independant and the similar Serg transport and until you got close you could not tell them a part. At night it was near impossible.
I was sure one was a transport so opened fire with my deck gun. With its spotlights beaming I could not make out the crosses so kept firing.
With the ship burning I manned the AA and took out the spotlights and fired a star shell.
Lo and behold it was a hospital ship.
I could not believe it. I was sure it was not
I apologized in Italian and they relpied they knew I wasn't German or they would have been sunk by now so I lost no renown.:rotfl:


I set my neutral from -1 to 1 because most ships heading to England are fair game IMO. I respect the proper neutrals like Sweden or any non combatant traveling alone and not in the direction of an enemy port.

I will have to edit the new RND to have that as the extra demension is fun.
I also had them in convoys with the same type transports. One in five were hospital ships and I was always nervous in a rain storm about my targets. They would not have been in convoys but I could not resist the added question of their possible presence.
I will leave them out of my GW-modded RND convoys because it is not real.

Wulfmann

[Fritz Fraghof]

and after the war I suggest staying well clear of Nuremberg. Lol. Is there a mod to simulate that?

[BigBadVuk]

Yestrday i sunk my 6th Hospital ship..and i still didnt get -10000 !! First 2 or 3 i sunk in previous career but then i was sunk by DCs from DD.When i started next career i cleaned all traces of SHIII(including registry check) and then i patched him and then i added GW1.0+1.1 update using JSGME ( i checked manyaly all *.7z archives,they are all ok)..The point is i did this becose still (now in my second GW career in 1942,october) i still didnt see either negative renow for hospital ships or single aircraft(beside that 2 BF109 over my starting port)...any ideas?:damn: :damn:

[scandium]

I don't sink Hospital ships. Anything else is fair game, although I won't waste an eel on anything smaller than a coastal steamer (so if the weather is too bad for guns then its a lucky day for the enemy skipper).

[coronas]

Sink Hospital Ships is a war crime. It's a blur in honor of Kriegsmarine and his men.

[Seminole]

asked my No.1 (the missus) and she said let it go, ...

I sank it with 4 torps....


Priceless....:up: :sunny:

[Vikinger]

asked my No.1 (the missus) and she said let it go, ...

I sank it with 4 torps....


Priceless....:up: :sunny:

Haha Yeah. i guess he sank it just becuse his wife said No :D

[spork542]

No. Just no. Wars are wrong, but sinking a ship clearly marked as a hospital ship is wronger, at least to me. I've seen a lone hospital ship in the mid-atlantic as well, but I dove and proceeded to ignore it. I made sure it was gone and then surfaced so as to not be tempted to destroy it, and also because I don't want my position reported. Passenger liners I don't mind sinking if they are not clearly marked as civilian liners, such as if they converted to troop transports. However, if I saw any markings on a liner that would lead me to suspect it was not a troop transport, I would ignore it. Now, that is ignoring the fact that all passenger liners in-game have no markings, I know, but I'm only talking about morals here.

[andy_311]

No way Hospital ships are a no no to me,Geneveva Convention or whatever just amagine if you got blasted to kingdom come and you were aboard a Hospital ship not very nice is it ?

[JSalinger]

Call me a fool, but to me, those hospital ships are transporting enemy soldiers who will soon become 'operational' (as someone earlier put it) again and be killing our colleagues in the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, and probably the Kriegsmarine and the Ubootwaffe itself. If it flies the flag of Britain, America, France, etc. I will send it to Davey Jones's locker.

They'd do it to us (and they did, if memory serves...a troop transport carrying wounded German soldiers and Allied POWs was torpedoed in the aftermath of the Convoy P.Q. 17 debacle), so I say we do it to them. And also, we did in real life: I'm not sure exactly which invasion it was, but around the time of the North Africa/Italy campaign, one of our radio guided bombs (okay, so the Luftwaffe did it) hit and sunk a hospital ship, along with the ship HMS Uganda.

[Dantenoc]

No, hospital ships are a no go.

Besides the several good reasons listed by other people, here's an evil idea to consider:

You should let them go because the whole idea of the U-boat is to starve Britain out of the war (not to death, just out of the war)... well, think about it... wounded soldiers don't produce anything but still consume food, medicine and various goods, so they actually help YOUR cause and bring Britain closer to quiting the war.

[scandium]

No, hospital ships are a no go.

Besides the several good reasons listed by other people, here's an evil idea to consider:

You should let them go because the whole idea of the U-boat is to starve Britain out of the war (not to death, just out of the war)... well, think about it... wounded soldiers don't produce anything but still consume food, medicine and various goods, so they actually help YOUR cause and bring Britain closer to quiting the war.

Interesting point of view. :hmm:

[JScones]

Yestrday i sunk my 6th Hospital ship..and i still didnt get -10000 !! First 2 or 3 i sunk in previous career but then i was sunk by DCs from DD.When i started next career i cleaned all traces of SHIII(including registry check) and then i patched him and then i added GW1.0+1.1 update using JSGME ( i checked manyaly all *.7z archives,they are all ok)..The point is i did this becose still (now in my second GW career in 1942,october) i still didnt see either negative renow for hospital ships or single aircraft(beside that 2 BF109 over my starting port)...any ideas?:damn: :damn:
I've mentioned this before, but I think there is a logic fault with the renown awarded for sinking a Hospital ship.

The renown awarded is -10000. However, the renown multiplier for sinking a neutral ship is -1. Thus, -1 x -10000 = +10000 renown awarded for sinking a neutral Hospital ship.

I suggested that the -10000 value be changed to +10000 (remembering that *all* other ship renown values are positive regardless of whether they are Allied, Axis or neutral), but have never heard whether anyone tested my theory. :hmm:

[Kurushio]

If hospital ships are willing to give away your position, then to me they are fair game. Though instead of sinking it, I toy with it...to scare them a bit. Maybe fire a few rounds across her bow....make my men moon at the onlookers....harass the pretty nurses....you know....get a loudspeaker and shout "...show us your knickers!"...that sort of thing. Then I'd pull alongside and draw a big picture of the Fuhrer...it's white so it should show up well. Then I'd get all the rotting food and try to aim it through the open windows...
yes....you can still have a lot of fun without sinking them. :up:

[HunterICX]

I just going to place myself next to the Hospital ship.
I let my men Board and rape the hot nurses for 30 minutes :arrgh!:
Harrr....5 days with no Sex can hurt you're Snake Harr Harr

[Cdre Gibs]

I've mentioned this before, but I think there is a logic fault with the renown awarded for sinking a Hospital ship.

The renown awarded is -10000. However, the renown multiplier for sinking a neutral ship is -1. Thus, -1 x -10000 = +10000 renown awarded for sinking a neutral Hospital ship.

I suggested that the -10000 value be changed to +10000 (remembering that *all* other ship renown values are positive regardless of whether they are Allied, Axis or neutral), but have never heard whether anyone tested my theory. :hmm:

You stand correct Sir.
This has been pointed out by myself as well to those who need to know.