@ Abraham

[bradclark1]

You are ****!

Now you can ban me. I've had it with your one sided moderating.

[Abraham]

Why should anyone want to ban you?

I can stand criticism, if that's what you mean.
The more diversing opinions on this forum are, the better.
It's just that posting, like moderating, is bound to the forum rules. I try to stick to them, as objectively as I can, which is sometimes far from easy.
You seem not to care about the Forum rules.

[bradclark1]

Now that I've cooled down.
I understand moderating and the need for it. I don't understand that you moderate according to your personal veiw on something. AL is a prime example. If anyone was wrong it was her with her name calling yet you target Mike. You are very good at backing AL up and it effects your moderating in this instance.
You use moderating as a tool to project your veiw and you are dead wrong for doing it. You abuse your position plain and simple.

[Abraham]

Now that I've cooled down.
I understand moderating and the need for it. I don't understand that you moderate according to your personal veiw on something. AL is a prime example. If anyone was wrong it was her with her name calling yet you target Mike. You are very good at backing AL up and it effects your moderating in this instance.
You use moderating as a tool to project your veiw and you are dead wrong for doing it. You abuse your position plain and simple.
Although it is very unwise to discuss moderating this way, I'll raise to the bait by exception.
Up till now most of my moderating was against Christians, about the way they expressed themselves about Muslims in general. Time and time again I have said that disrespect for religions and generalising all 1.4 Billion Muslims is not what we do on this forum. Mind you, I am a Christian myself. I have - as a moderator criticised people I agreed with. I have criticised Hitman and The Avon Lady,whom I personally appreciate, to their dislike. I recently closed a thread after somebody promoted nuking Iran, although I myself feel an attack on Iran might be necessary in the future.

If I decide to criticise somebody, I make sure that I read the whole thread to see is this person was somehow provoked or if blame is to be shared. And I don't take a moderating decision easily.
On the other hand, doing nothing can under circumstances be considered a decision too. And I happened to be tasked by Neal with a certain responsability here.

Furthermore, I take my job businesslike. I can moderate a person in one thread and fully agree with him in another. I don't hold anything against anybody on this forum, because I realise that we all make mistakes (being so diversive).

I really don't understand how you can honestly say that I am promoting my personal views. The contrary is true as most of my interventions show. I take your accusation that I "misuse my position plain and simple" serious, and find it utterly unfair. An apology wouldn't be out of place.

So, where's your proof? If you find any, go complain about me with Neal!

[Happy Times]

I think Abraham has been quite fair, i got a notice by him this week. Ive lived in Israel and Syria and i have formed an general opinion and i have say that i understand where Avon Lady is coming from. Also the situation in Europe is such that things might get ugly in not so distant future. It is possible that the wiew, to these issues of cultures conflicting, is different from over there. That might explain some of this row. :hmm:

[Sixpack]

:o Seems I missed the action. But hey, c'mon guys, cool it will ya ?! In the end we're all part of the same subsimming team :hmm:

But Abraham, I have to say I sympathize primarily with you. You have taken it on yourself to (time consumingly) moderate this forum, and I think we all agree being a moderator on any board (but esp. here where the s**t on occasion really hits the fan) is the lousiest job there is.

GL

[Abraham]

@ Sixpack:
Well, actually Neal told me one day that I was a moderator on the General Topics Forum from now, probably to make me shut up, because now I have to be carefull giving my personal opinion when I'm moderating and I sometimes have to moderate people I agree with, Like you!

But OK guys, thanks, but (positively or negatively) criticising moderating is not a discussion subject for this forum, it should be done by p.m.'s (according to Neal's rules). So let's all cool down a little bit. Just take me or leave me, complain behind my back with Neal as much as you want, but let's stop this thread. (But be sure I don't mind to take anyone on in a fierce discussion!).
It almost looks like Spamming...

Yours Sincerely,
Abraham

(moderator on the General Topics Forum)
:D

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, guys, let's take it easy here, fingers off the triggers.

Now, I got a PM about that heated thread between AL and Mike Red Oktober. I decided to watch it but took no immediate action. Sometimes it helps for people to work out these issues themselves. Abraham, as moderator, thought in his best judgment, to lock the topic and explained, although he only addressed Mike. I would rather just see the arguement quashed and not second-guess the moderator.

I am not interested in taking Mike's or AL's side. AL knows there are a lot of people in the world who do not share her opinion. Likewise, same with Mike. Let's resolve this the way we usually, do: we let the issue die out and get back to regular topics. I appreciate your help in this matter, quieting down a forum outbreak can only be achieved with your cooperation.

Neal

[bradclark1]

I think Abraham has been quite fair, i got a notice by him this week. Ive lived in Israel and Syria and i have formed an general opinion and i have say that i understand where Avon Lady is coming from. Also the situation in Europe is such that things might get ugly in not so distant future. It is possible that the wiew, to these issues of cultures conflicting, is different from over there. That might explain some of this row. :hmm:

I was not attacking AL. She was the one calling names. The fact of the matter is I am more in AL's corner on this particular thread as far as the subject mattter goes than Mikes.
What I saw was someone unfairly singled out and the thread locked. The proper thing to do in my opinion if I thought a thread was getting out of hand (which I really don't think this one was.) is do what Neal just did in this thread is tell everyone to cool down. That would have been the proper thing to do. Not put somebody down publicly then lock the thread.
We have for ages moderated ourselves and generally gave apoligies when they were due once the dust clears.

@ Abraham,
The subject matter does not make a difference. What the problem is is how you handled the situation. You made an attack on one individual then locked it. I notice you said jack all about Avon calling Mike a jackass or all her provacative comments.
To me that is showing a personal view. You saw nothing wrong with AL's posts yet condemed Mikes.
My belief is that you moderate where moderation is not needed but thats just my opinion.
I take your accusation that I "misuse my position plain and simple" serious, and find it utterly unfair. An apology wouldn't be out of place.
To me that thread is a perfect example and I'm not going to comb this place to give anymore specifics when this example is obvious.
I'll not apoligize when an apology is not due. To me you owe Mike an apology.
I don't mean to stick my face in Mikes business and fight his battles but you were out of line.
Use Neal's moderating as an example on how "I" think it should be handled.

I don't dislike you Abraham I think you are a standup guy, but I think you take your job too seriously. :cry:
:)

Brad

[Sir Big Jugs]

You are poo poo!

I disagree!


Now you can ban me.

I agree!

[The Avon Lady]

I was not attacking AL. She was the one calling names.
Here's a simple question. What would insult you more?

Being equated to far worse than this personality (http://www.auschwitz.dk/hoess.htm) or being called a jackass?

[Gizzmoe]

This thread is unbelievable. :nope:

[Sir Big Jugs]

This thread is unbelievable. :nope:

Quite true. . .

Nice new avatar btw.

[Kapitan]

Theres a saying; we all come back or no one does.

As members of / former members / members who are about to join / enthusiasts of the silent service we should take a look at our model and say we aint doing this right.

We stick together live together (on here anyway) and do everything together there fore we cant single one of our own out.

[Abraham]

@ All:
Moderating a forum is applying the rules that Neal made to specific situations.
Criticising moderation openly is undermining that system and thus undermining the forum. It turns moderation into a popularity contest, which is definitly is not. A moderator should not fulfill the expectations of individual forum members, but the expectations of Neal, upon who's authority he depends.

There are also rules for criticising a moderator or moderation. They have been pointed out before. This thread, in which those rules are violated, is the living proof of their wisdom.

Neal suggested to stick to those rules and let the matter rest:Let's resolve this the way we usually, do: we let the issue die out and get back to regular topics. I appreciate your help in this matter, quieting down a forum outbreak can only be achieved with your cooperation.
Shall we?
;)

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

Moderating a forum is applying the rules that Neal made to specific situations.
Criticising moderation openly is undermining that system and thus undermining the forum. It turns moderation into a popularity contest, which is definitly is not. A moderator should not fulfill the expectations of individual forum members, but the expectations of Neal, upon who's authority he depends.
one sided moderation, unfair moderation, unbiased moderation openly is undermining that system and thus undermining the forum as well...

consider that the next time you feel the need to excercise the authority given you...

it is your responsibility to apply the 'law' evenly and fairly...


it is out of deference to the members here, and to a guy who i have great respect for that i call on all to put this incident to rest, and lets move on to more nautical endeavors...

--Mike

[Skybird]

one sided moderation, unfair moderation, unbiased moderation openly is undermining that system and thus undermining the forum.

consider that the next time you feel the need to excercise the authority given you...

it is out of deference to the members here, and to a guy who i have great respect for that i call on all to put this incident to rest, and lets move on to more nautical endeavors...

--Mike

:up: concerning both remarks.

[Abraham]

one sided moderation, unfair moderation, unbiased moderation openly is undermining that system and thus undermining the forum.

consider that the next time you feel the need to excercise the authority given you...

it is out of deference to the members here, and to a guy who i have great respect for that i call on all to put this incident to rest, and lets move on to more nautical endeavors...

--Mike

:up: concerning both remarks.
Well, I think we can all agree that bad moderating is bad for our forum.
Just as all will undoubtedly agree that breaking the forum rules is bad for our forum.
So is not changing the subject without giving it one last try, after Neal asks us to let the matter rest.

P.S. I can receive - and often do receive and respond to - P.M.'s on moderating matters.
:D

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

you've already made your point over and over and over again Abraham... now don't you think it's time to shut up about this, and let the community move on...

--Mike

[bradclark1]

Just one last thing. I apologize to Abraham for the **** remark. I let my temper get the best of me.
I now officialy :/\chop this thread.

[Wim Libaers]

I was not attacking AL. She was the one calling names.
Here's a simple question. What would insult you more?

Being equated to far worse than this personality (http://www.auschwitz.dk/hoess.htm) or being called a jackass?

Note that Hess and Hoess are different Nazi's. You're the first one who mentioned Hess, while Hoess wasn't mentioned by name (though could be implied in the group of "more infamous Nazis").

[The Avon Lady]

I was not attacking AL. She was the one calling names.
Here's a simple question. What would insult you more?

Being equated to far worse than this personality (http://www.auschwitz.dk/hoess.htm) or being called a jackass?

Note that Hess and Hoess are different Nazi's. You're the first one who mentioned Hess, while Hoess wasn't mentioned by name (though could be implied in the group of "more infamous Nazis").
My mistake in mentioning Rudolph Hess instead of Rudolph Hoss. But it makes no difference. In case you missed Mike Hense's original vitriol against me, here it is again:

"there is no difference between you, and the people that ran Auschwitz, Birkenau, Mauthausen..."

My question here still stands.

[Kapitan]

"there is no difference between you, and the people that ran Auschwitz, Birkenau, Mauthausen..."

So your compairing me to a murderer?

I believe there is alot of diffrence, to start with i wasnt helping kill 6 million people.

[Gizzmoe]

*edit*

[The Avon Lady]

"there is no difference between you, and the people that ran Auschwitz, Birkenau, Mauthausen..."

So your compairing me to a murderer?

I believe there is alot of diffrence, to start with i wasnt helping kill 6 million people.
Who was talking about you, heaven forbid? :nope:

This is either your attempt to reach a 6000 post count :roll: or you're not aware of what I'm referring to.

The quote above is what Mike Hense accused me of being - not you nor anyone else here.

Look at my first post here, addressed to Bradclark1. He accused me of initiating the insults. My question to Bradclark was essentially to explain why Mike Hense's initial insult to me, quoted above, is not an insult in his opinion.

[Sea Demon]

Oy Vey!! You guys are still hammering this, huh? I highly suggest y'all take a day off, drink a mocha latte, and watch a sunset. :roll:

[Abraham]

@ All:
Neal suggested to ... let the matter rest:Let's resolve this the way we usually, do: we let the issue die out and get back to regular topics. I appreciate your help in this matter, quieting down a forum outbreak can only be achieved with your cooperation.
Shall we?
;)
That was a restless and slow death...

Abraham
(with moderator cap on)