Targetting specific areas of ship.

[vodkajello]

I have some questions on how to target specific parts of ships properly.

Sometimes ships are insanely hard to kill in GW. I had to put 2 torps into this large merchant. One hit the starboard bow, on hit star board midship. He was leaking in the front for sure. His nose was riding pretty low and was getting washed over by the bigger waves. He also started listing to starboard. I tailed him for 3 hours, then put another torp into him, which hit in the starboard bow again. This time he caught fire. I waited another hour. This whole time he is maintaining a speed of 6 knots, with his nose getting washed over all the time. Nothing changes.
So after 4 hours and 3 torp hits the stupid ship isn't going down. So I crossed over to the starboard side and put another torp into his port midships. He cracked in two and went down in about 30 seconds.

So there was dense fog, big waves, and really dark night. I'm under 1k away from the large merchant and I couldn't see anything, and kept losing my target due to waves. It was pitch black. I was aiming at a little green arrow. Which will amost always hit right in the middle if you get the plot right.

I still think the nights are too dark. (I'm using the light 16km verion, but it's still really dark.) I can't see ANYTHING except the waves that are close to the boat. Even if I crank up the gamma everything mostly just gets lighter, not more defined. So it's too dark in the game, not just my screen. Next step for me is to get the color tweeking deal and play with it.

I know GW/NYGM teams say there is nothing wrong with the damage model. So I'm not going to complain, I'm just going to hope that GW1.x and NYGMv2 make things a bit easier in most cases.

Mostly I think I just need some marksmanship help from the more experienced captains.

How do you effectively target at night? In a storm and in fog? The last patrol I was in lasted 21 days, only 4 of which were not foggy storm conditions.

Can you lock on to different sections of the target once identified, or do you just manually adjust with the scope and fire when approx location on ship is being pointed at?

Thanks all!

[zzsteven]

I try to get the boat in a position to shoot from 500-700m. Fire two torpedoes in salvo with a spread angle of 3-5 degrees. This varys based on range. Use the TDC screen to guesstimate where the torpedoes will impact the ship. Usually the ship will slow down to a managable speed. If I'm using Auto TDC that night, the subsequent shots are done manual. If you're using auto tdc and your third shot hit his bow (again), you might be shooting a bit to soon. If a ship is only moving at 6kts you can wait until the torpedoe gyroangles are about 3 degrees when shooting at 1000m or less.

zz

[Dutch]

never had problems sinking a ship in GW.

I think most people are acustum to the unrealistc easy and quick sink times of the stock game.

Even as I am typing I am awaiting a C3 to flounder after I sent an initial salvo of 2 torps into her, I detonated astern of the engine room the other a dud.

the ship slowed significantly and I rushed ahead (during the night 20:05) and set up a stern shot and fired. Detonated in engine room. Small secondary explosion is seen.

After ten mins (20:15) a noticeable list is seen astern.

After 20 mins (20:25) waves begin lapping over the stern.

After 30 mins (20:35) the ship begin listing to port

After 40 mins (20:45) I'm give the report that the ship is floundering. The stern goes under slowly with the bow raising in the air and slowly sinks beneath the sea.

All these people with complaints about the GW damage mod. I have two bits of advice.

1. DO NOT expect stock sinking times, don't fire 1 torp at a ship and "expect" that to do the job, ships SINK now not run out of HP

2. Patients for God's sake. Ships don't sink like rocks, they have to flood and lose bouyancy. It takes time.

[AG124]

Just to point out to anyone who is interested, the Converted Whale Factory ship I released last month still has the zones of the Transport. I was unable to change them. :oops:

[vodkajello]

@dutch
I did wait for over 4 hours for it to sink. She hadn't slowed down an inch and even though the front of the boat had been very low in the water for 3 hours she wasn't slowing and wasn't sinking.

I think 80% of my problem is getting quality shots at night. The other 20% is getting the last strangeness out of NYGM Damage.

It's very strange to hear talk of people taking 4 shots at a Tramp Steamer, getting pissed off and reloading the game. They take 2 shots at the same boat, hitting in the same places and the ship goes down like it should.....

[Stiebler]

vodkajello said:
Can you lock on to different sections of the target once identified, or do you just manually adjust with the scope and fire when approx location on ship is being pointed at?

The NYGM damage model is both good and historically accurate, and (judging by comments on these forums) much liked.

However, as has been often pointed up, two torpedoes in the same place serve no purpose. Therefore, if you know that the target has been hit (let us say) midships and aft, you need to hit somewhere else. You could aim at the bow (not recommended, since this will make the ship sink evenly, and therefore more slowly), or between the centre and the stern. Or you could do what Vodkajello finally did, which is to go round to the other side of the ship and hit anywhere.

If you want to pick your target area, you must get in close (say about 500m), set up a firing solution for the autolock onto the target (which targets the centre of the ship), then release the autolock (key 'L') and manually move the periscope or UZO crosshairs onto the target area. Then press the fire button.

Stiebler.

[Salvadoreno]

Still there are sometimes where a ship just DOES NOT SINK. Take right now for example.. I managed to sneak into a convoy 1944 and fire to fish before i crash dived. 1 Hit a C3 unknown area, but when i surfaced. She was a straggler, engines stop far behind the convoy. So i get into firing position and fire 1 in front of the bridge. I wait a while. Ship has no signs of listing or anything. Ok another fish hits same spot.. OOPS! Okay my fault.. I fire another fish and it hits amidships. Listing right now, but still not sinking.. THIS is frustration.. :hulk:
I have put 4 fish into this guy..

1 UNKOWN AREA
2 INFRONT OF BRIDGE
1 AMIDSHIPS...

NOW.. thats unrealistic.. :damn:

:EDIT::

BUT I STILL LOVE THE DAMAGE MODELS!!!

[VonHelsching]

If you want to pick your target area, you must get in close (say about 500m), set up a firing solution for the autolock onto the target (which targets the centre of the ship), then release the autolock (key 'L') and manually move the periscope or UZO crosshairs onto the target area. Then press the fire button.

Stiebler.

Stiebler,

When someone wants to pick a specific area of a ship, not only has the "L" to be realeased, but also the player has point the UZO/periscope a zero degrees and steer the uboat accordingly. When the autolock is "unchecked" the torpedo will always run straight (zero degrees). I do this all the time.

Is there another way of doing this (apart from manual targeting)?

Thanks

[vodkajello]

I think you are incorrect in going off lock and only being able to fire dead straight. The torps are always set from the info they are being 'fed' by the optics at the time of firing. They will correct within ~5 degrees. Right?

Could a vet please confirm?

[Der Teddy Bar]

I have put 4 fish into this guy..

1 UNKOWN AREA
2 INFRONT OF BRIDGE
1 AMIDSHIPS...

NOW.. that’s unrealistic.. :damn:

:EDIT::

BUT I STILL LOVE THE DAMAGE MODELS!!!
While it is sometimes frustrating, it is not 'unrealistic' if compared to what happened during WWII.

As a result of the faulty magnetic exploder the u-boats were forced to rely only on impact detonations.

From January to June 1942 there were 816 ships were hit by u-boats. This is not ships sunk or total torpedoes fired.

327, or 40% sunk with 1 torpedo
311, or 38% required two or more torpedoes
178, or 22% escaped after being hit with 1 to 4 torpedoes

Real world examples

The Elmbank a 5156 ton motor merchant was launched in 1925 took 2 torpedoes and about 100 88mm shells to sink.

At 04.47 hours on 21 Sep, 1940, the Elmbank travelling in convoy HX-72 was hit by one torpedo from U-99 and fell behind the convoy. About 06.00 hours, the U-boat began shelling the ship, firing 88 rounds, many of them hitting the vessel. After 15.00 hours, U-47 (Prien) helped to shell the abandoned Elmbank, setting her on fire. Eventually, U-99 administered a coup de grâce and the ship sank south of Iceland.


The Conch a 8376 ton motor tanker was launched in 1931 took 5 torpedoes to sink over 2 days by 3 u-boats U-47 (1), U95 (3) & U-99 (1).

At 05.25 hours on 2 Dec, 1940, the Conch (Master Charles George Graham) in convoy HX-90 was hit by one torpedo from U-47 (Prien) about 370 miles west of Bloody Foreland in 55°40N/19°00W (grid AL 6548) and dropped behind the convoy.

At 09.05 and 09.32 hours, the vessel was hit by three more torpedoes from U-95 (Schreiber) in grid AL 6582, two of which had only little effect.

The tanker was finally sunk by one torpedo from U-99 at 10.19 hours on 3 December.

[Salvadoreno]

Yes but im in 1944, most faulty torpedo's have been corrected by then. Plus from all the readings it was pretty rare to hear of a ship taking 3-4 torps and not sinking. Tho there are some examples, like yours, it is still a rarity. But hey, I wouldnt have it any other way! I love the damage models and "flooding!" :yep:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Yes but im in 1944, most faulty torpedo's have been corrected by then. Plus from all the readings it was pretty rare to hear of a ship taking 3-4 torps and not sinking. Tho there are some examples, like yours, it is still a rarity. But hey, I wouldnt have it any other way! I love the damage models and "flooding!" :yep:
Who said anything about these torpedoes being faulty?

Are you suggesting that Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz was incorrect in his figures that I quoted?

Using Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz figures
2 in 5 sunk with 1 torpedo
2 in 5 sunk with 2+ torpedoes
1 in 5 escaped with up to 4 torpedo hits

I think that you also have a incorrect view on the 'almighty' magnetic pistol. Yes it could be very much more effective than a impact detonation. BUT... that depended on where on the ship it exploded, how deep, or how far from the ship i.e. before getting under the ship.

Percussion = striking, hitting etc


On 15.3. after the first 3 months operational use of "Pi 2" of 75 torpedoes fired with "Pi 2 MZ one" there were 30 reports of hits.

Analysis of these hits, by which nearly all targets were reported sunk, gives the following picture: NOTE - this is from the F.D.U War Diary so it is not possible to validate the assumed sinkings

22 shots may be taken as deep percussion firing hits,
4 hits might be percussion firing hits or magnetic firing,
4 shots definitely had typical magnetic firing effect according to corroborated observation.

This result shows that according to the previously established "Guide to Choice of Depth Setting", the majority of shots even when Pi 2 with "MZ one" is used may be expected to result in percussion firing hits.

To date, the choice of depth setting for torpedoes with Pi 2 "MZ one" has been based on the calculated draught of the target, just as it has been for torpedoes with percussion firing. This calculation is always on the shallow side for safety, especially when different types of torpedo are used with percussion and non-contact firing. Thus the general rule of:"Set torpedoes 1 meter less than the calculated draught" will continue to result in a majority of percussion firing hits.

Even if these hits lie lower on the target than those scored with percussion firing (Pi G 7H), they till do not allow the non-contact pistol to function properly, for its purpose is to achieve the greatest possible damage to the target. The firing area of the "Pi 2" on the contrary, considerably increases the effect of the explosion.

The fixed depth settings calculated for medium sized targets 2,000, 5,000 and 9,000 GRT, have been chosen to give a firing depth under the keel, which in the case of the smallest targets of each class is still within the area of 100 percent sure firing, and in the case of larger ships of each class is just on the edge of percussion firing effectiveness. This depth setting gives the firing position approximately 1/2 to 1 meter under the keel in the case of ships up to 7,000 GRT, against which a safe firing depth up to 2 meters can be used; in the case of ships over 7,000 GRT, against which the safe firing boundary extends to 3 meters, the firing position moves to about 2 meters under the keel. Thus, the three standard depth settings allow a play of 1 to 1 1/2 meters firing depth before the lower firing boundary is reached. The depth keeping tolerance of the torpedo is taken into account in these calculations. All estimates are based on the magnetic field of German vessels equipped with degaussing gear.

[Salvadoreno]

well... proved me wrong. :|\ :88)

[Khayman]

Are you suggesting that Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz was incorrect in his figures that I quoted?



I'd certainly suggest that. Due to overclaims, confusion, and perhaps wishfull thinking on the part of skippers, he often didn't have any idea what was really happening. E.g.

A sixteen page report. entitled "Convoy Operation NR5, Zaunkonig Convoy" by Donitz and U-Boat control said that U-boats using the new T-5 torpedo had sank twelve surface escorts from one convoy, and probably sank three more - making a total of fifteen.

Donitz wrote "The new weapons proved their worth in every respect". However the confirmed sinkings were not fifteen, but only three!

I agree about the magnetics though, the US had problems with them as well. I also think it's not unusual to use a lot of torps to sink just one ship. If I remember right then Clay Blair talked about "remarkable" salvos where perhaps three ships were sunk with 6 torpedoes.

A large majority of U-boat patrols resulted in no sinkings at all, so be thankfull for one :D

Khayman, who's dying to install GW but is waiting to finish his stock SH3 career first....

[Der Teddy Bar]

Khayman,
From what I read into your response is that you are suggesting that fewer ships were sunk?

[malcymalc]

Teddy,
I think Khayman is suggesting that thanks to overclaims by his commanders Doenitz frequently had the impression that more ships had been sunk than was actually the case.

This had a number of effects including giving the BdU the mistaken impression that they were winning the "tonnage war" (or were close to winning) when combined with their failure to believe Allied shipbuilding figures.

I am sure that 816 ship statistic you quote did not come from the archives of the Ubootwaffe (otherwise I would be right beside Khayman in doubting it's accuracy) but from postwar analysis.

Regards
Malcolm

[Manock]

Blew up a C3 with one torpedo right in the gas tank. Lots of pretty colors.

Did the same thing a few months later, and the torpedo didnt even faze it. There was a blackened smudge right in the center of the gas tank, and the C3 just shook it off.

So dont know what the sim is doing. Maybe it incorporates some kind of lucky random gremlin function. "Dont know why, just didnt work."

Or maybe the sim is saying the boats were being upgraded over time. Water proof bulkhead compartmentalization, armored panels over vulnerable areas.

Though got a say, 4 torpedos over a 4 hr. period has gotta be a record for survival tenacity.

[BigBadVuk]

Tonight i managed to sink C3 with 1 fish only....(GW on of course)

some 3-4 hrs later finded another victim...this time it was C2..:
Boom...1 fish under 1st mast...2nd under bridge.....speed gradyatley dropped to 2-3 knts(it was around 6-7 ,im using no help from WO so this is just my observation but he DID slow noticably)...15 mins later i surfaced and he was imobils....started to list to port badly.....I ordered Gun crew on deck,putted around 20 shots under waterline and started to turn a way to finis him with aft torpedo however while i was in turn he listed so heavily i realised he will sunk in under 20 mins..and HE DID!....Almoust capsized,then bow went down and while he was sinking there was 1 more BIIIG explosion(boilers maybe?!) ...So i was playing 1.0 and 1.4b but never saw this realistic sinking.... :up:

[Kilamon]

I sailed in to Scapa (my randomized number is u-47 so I felt inspired) in December of '39 and found a troop transport. From 2500 meters, I destroyed it with a pair of fish on a near 90 degree aob, took out the class C destroyer next to it and tried for the tanker but I must have hit a pier. With the GW mod on, I had no dofficulty in sinking these ships. I have had issues with other ships (I circled and waited on one merchant for 3 days in my old type II). This prompted the crew to paint a shark on the tower when we were given the new type VII. I blame Bernhard for that one. That particular ship just didn't want to sink. I pounded it pretty hard with 4 torpedos in different areas of the hull and did all I could. Next time, I'll tow an iceberg to it.

[bsalyers]

The increased difficulty is just another example of GW/NYGM's greater historical accuracy. There's a reason it's possible to play the stock game on 100% realism and exceed even the greatest historical tonnage records by several hundred-thousand. The damage mods correct this and I appreciate that.

If the actual Battle For the Atlantic had played out as it does in unmodded SHIII, Britain would've been a lost cause.

[Cerberus]

From what I recollect, Allied shipping didn't carry de-gausing gear but were often 'wiped' before sailing (Most modern naval vessels have de-gausing coils permanently mounted around the hull - it plays havoc with any CRT monitors near them when the ship's head changes through 000 or 180.

Is there any information on how effective de-gausing is/was against magnetic torpedos?




All estimates are based on the magnetic field of German vessels equipped with degaussing gear.

[Khayman]

Khayman,
From what I read into your response is that you are suggesting that fewer ships were sunk?]

Yup! If your figures were from Doenitz or U-Boat control then they are suspect (for the reasons both I and malcymalc gave).

However it was mostly your statement, "Are you suggesting that Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz was incorrect in his figures that I quoted?" that I disagreed with, again for reasons that have been detailed.

Just because the Grand Admiral said so doesn't make it so.

[bill clarke]

Well as there is such a lively debate going thought I'd add my 2 cents worth.
I am using Der Teddy Bars ship damage model, and just played the malta single mission with a type XXI, yeah i know, i'm cheating, but it was for simplicitys sake, anyway, I put 2 eels in to the Dido cruiser, she blows up and sinks slowly, I put 4 eels in to the Nelson, Stbd side 0547
1st forward of "A" turret
2nd under "B" turret
3rd & 4th under "C" turret with a small space between them.
0551 listing stbd
0553 list increasing, still sailing, down by the bow.
0604 Props still turning, but making no headway, forward decks almost awash.

Now I turn my attention, to the merchants, I fire 2 eels at the medium tanker a long range shot over 1000 mts, 1 detonates prematurley, the second hits forward of the bridge stbd side, the ship blows up and sinks, next target, a medium cargo, 1st eel bounced of the hull after hitting the hull round down near the props, second eels hits the rear cargo area, she blow up and sinks by the stern quickly.

Now back to the Nelson,
0609 ship still afloat, not moving.
0614 props turning ship making way.
0638 shoots down 2 JU88's
0640 attacked by 4 Stuka's, damage to port side
0649 shoots down lone Stuka, a/c hits water stbd side abreast "B" turret.
0710 Still afloat.

At this point I got out of the game, so it is possible to sink vessals, I love the randomness of this mod though, I also had at least 3 misses during this game as well.

[Kilamon]

Has anyone tried lining up to 90 degree AOB after disabling a ship and going for a critical hit to a specifically targeted location?

[Fitz62STG]

I target pretty much every class of ship right where the bridge (superstucture) begins. I probably get one shot kills 30 - 40%. If I can get them DIW then all I try to do is line up a beam shot at the same place. I use manual targeting so it's a lot of calculations done in my head. Mental TMA that's the way to go.

[Razman23]

I think you are incorrect in going off lock and only being able to fire dead straight. The torps are always set from the info they are being 'fed' by the optics at the time of firing. They will correct within ~5 degrees. Right?

Could a vet please confirm?

OK I will bite.

Once you enter all the info (manual or WO) into the 'computer' (the clipboard in the upper right of screen), the TDC will track where your scope is pointing. So if you have calculated a solution for a ship at say 5° port and you pick the check mark on the clipboard, you can unlock your scop and move it anywhere along the ship and the gyro will correct for the ships heading and speed already entered. So if the scope was locked on the bridge (99.9% of the time), you can unlock, move the scope forward towards the fuel bunker and shoot.

The only way you can shoot a fish dead ahead with no solutions is to hit the X on the clip board. That clears the TDC and you are basically shooting straight ahead.