Fatigue - No good solution?

[bsalyers]

I know this is a perennial favorite topic on this forum, but I'm hoping there are some new ideas and/or answers.

Crew management modelling is a great concept. It forces you to remember that there are other "people" on the boat and that you are not out there by yourself. However...

The idea that a uboat crew would be "too tired" to do their jobs is ridiculous. It's not just contrary to the spirit of military service in general and the uboat elite in particular, it's contrary to the basic instinct of self-preservation. Nothing is quite as invigorating as having your life threatened, either by destroyers or courtmartial for dereliction.

I don't want to turn off fatigue completely; it feels like cheating. But if it's a choice between that and sitting there unable to move with a boat full of exclamation points, I'll take cheating. I don't know how the real-time players can stand it.

Has anyone come up with a sensible compromise?
TIA.

[The Noob]

The idea that a uboat crew would be "too tired" to do their jobs is ridiculous. It's not just contrary to the spirit of military service in general and the uboat elite in particular, it's contrary to the basic instinct of self-preservation. Nothing is quite as invigorating as having your life threatened, either by destroyers or courtmartial for dereliction.


Yep!

[Heibges]

Check out the Hollywood Living Crew Fatigue Model. I have used it for about a year now, and find it the most fullfilling for my style of play.

Basically, you must rotate your crew every 8 hours or so depending on where they are stationed. Watch get tired more quickly than Control Room personel.

I play attacks in real time. So every 4 hours I need to rotate the crew. Most of my convoy battles take 24 to 48 hours of real time.

[Rosencrantz]

Do you use any mod(s)?

I used RuB, didn't liked it's fatique so I made my own. After that my crew was able to carry on more than 24 hour watch but also they needed longer time to be in power again. Unfortunately you can't get rid of the basic problems like engines shut down if crew too tired. But, I found my own fatique system to be very satisfying after stock / RuB systems.

Now I have just started with NYGM but before my first real career I think I have to do something for graphics...

[bsalyers]

Do you use any mod(s)?

I'm currently using the Grey Wolves SuperMod and it's really reinvigorated the game for me. I highly recommend it.

Check out the Hollywood Living Crew Fatigue Model... Basically, you must rotate your crew every 8 hours or so depending on where they are stationed. Watch get tired more quickly than Control Room personel.

That sounds more realistic. I'll give it a try. Thanks!

[Heibges]

I find that in the literal sense it is the most realistic. After 8 hours they are tired and should go lay down in their bunks. Then they get back up and go back on duty.

RuB and NYGM Fatigue systems are equally realistic, just in the more abstract sense.

[bsalyers]

The idea of modelling fatigue, in whatever fashion, is completely realistic; it's the crew refusing to work that is ridiculous.

[Kapitän Cremer]

I play the stock game with a few eye candy mods...

I noticed that once I award the German cross in gold to any of my crewmembers they never seems to get tired...

Have run through 3 patrols with all my officers wearing the german cross and none of them have got even the smallest amount of decress in their fatique....

[vodkajello]

I think that crew fatigue is something that should be modelled in a good game. But I really hate it when I'm going flank speed to line up an attack run on a ship and my engines stop because some retard got a bit tired. It doesn't even take you down to 1xTC. You're sitting with your engines stopped at 8x or 16x. BAH! You have to quickly turn down the TC, hit F7 and press the little attack run symbol or cruise symbol to rotate your men. (Which it doesn't do a very intelligent job of in a lot of cases.)

If they had proper rotation management or macro settings or somthing it might be easier.

It's really tempting just to turn it off.

[bsalyers]

I think that crew fatigue is something that should be modelled in a good game. But I really hate it when I'm going flank speed to line up an attack run on a ship and my engines stop because some retard go a bit tired.

Exactly. Imagine that happening in real life, circa 1941: "Onkel Karl, I'm sorry. We would've sunk that tanker, but Hans got fatigued in the middle of our attack run."

The developers should've at least created an exception for dangerous situations where the life of everyone on the boat depended on the crew doing their jobs.

Remember what happened when Johann got "fatigued" in Das Boot? He got fatigued, the kaleun got a pistol, and everyone went back to work!

[Heibges]

Do you use SH3 Commander?

If you like the RuB concept, but not the exhaustion, you can use SH3 Commander to give your crew more starting qualifications. This will make it a little more user friendly. Efficient stations tire more slowly.

And remember, when using RuB, stay in higher TC as much as possible because your crew will not fatigue. You can set this value in the CFG my editing 3D Render=32 to 3d Render=256 or some such thing.

Also, with the NYGM you regain stamina by sinking ships not by resting.

I think one minor weakness in "non-resting" crew mods is that, they are more constricting to folks who play a lot in real time, than folks who use time compression more.

Also, if you find targets with hydrophones rather than visually, you will find more targets sooner, so your patrols will be much shorter, and the fatigue effects of RuB or NYGM crew mods will be less severe.

[Observer]

Just to clarify, NYGM TW fatigue model and the RUB fatigue model have nothing in common. The NYGM fatigue model is the only fatigue model currently available that includes the positive and negative effects of moral on crew performance, and is based on a 12 hour crew rotation. This means you must rest watch sections about every 12 hours. The crew configuration is designed to be able to man port and starboard watch sections. It will be more complicated during battle stations because you will have many more crew members on watch, however this is realistic. In heavy weather, the bridge crew will fatigue faster than the belowdecks crew, however this is again realistic. This fatigue mod is designed to work at all levels of time compression, however may be "turned off" by altering the 3DRender setting mentioned above.

If you are interested in reading more about the NYGM TW fatigue model, you may download the NYGM TW v1.03 User Manual here:

NYGM TW v1.03 User Manual (http://files.filefront.com/NYGM_Tonnage_War_v103_User_Ma/;4857982;;/fileinfo.html)

If you are currently dissatisfied with the stock fatigue model, and/or the RUB fatigue model, give it a try. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[bsalyers]

I'm currently using Grey Wolves. I know it incorporates many aspects of NYGM; does it use the same fatigue model?

[zombiewolf]

remember in das boot when the engineer refused to go back into the engine room.

The captain made it very clear that his orders were to be carried out regardless of the circumstances.


Do what I say or be shot! Thats what I say no fatique and no negative vibes
Especially during these times (I am at 13th Jun 1944) :hulk:

[Observer]

I'm currently using Grey Wolves. I know it incorporates many aspects of NYGM; does it use the same fatigue model?

No. The only thing GW uses from NYGM is the damage model. NYGM TW has made dramatic changes to many other areas including the campaign files, aircraft and flak response as well as the fatigue model. More is planned for the future as well.

[bsalyers]

Did some research; I read in the mods forum that the latest version of SH3 Commander is out. It has support for the GW fatigue model, which is based on an 8-hour cycle. I'll give it a try.

[Heibges]

You don't want to use that mod, if you don't want your crew to become exhausted and the boat not to move. In that respect, it is like RuB.

For what you are trying to do, not turn Fatigue off, but not have the possibility of the boat not moving, the Hollywood Model is the only choice.

But if you sink at 2 or 3 ships per patrol, or don't spend more than 5 weeks at sea per patrol, you should have not problems with Fatigue with the NYGM Mod. If you sink 6 or 7 ships per patrol, you will have absolute no issues with fatigue during the patrol.

RuB takes the more severe view, that, successful or not, war patrols on a uboat are physically and mentally exhausting.

[zzsteven]

Did some research; I read in the mods forum that the latest version of SH3 Commander is out. It has support for the GW fatigue model, which is based on an 8-hour cycle. I'll give it a try.

If you don't want to micromanage the crew, you would probably prefer the 24 hour fatigue model. It's in the Optional mods folder of GW.

I tried the 8 hr model for 6 patrols, 5 in a type II, and couldn't stand it. Installed a different version in Commander and use it instead.

zz

[Ducimus]

My biggest irritation/complaint with fatigue in SH3 is the micromangement involved. In real life this sort of management is delegated down through the boats chain of command. The captain wouldnt involve himself with *every* minute detail - this is why he has junior grade officers.

So ive always wanted an auto rotating watch schedule. Where one crew would come off watch, and the next come on watch, automatically, by itself, as the crew should. Unfortunatly this sort of thing isn't possible in SH3. The reasoning however is, that the captain has to sleep sometime, and the boats normal operations do not cease because the captain is sawning logs in his bunk.

The only solution ive ever been able to find that eleminated micromanagment is either to turn fatigue off alltogether, or a "patrol based fatigue" model, or in other words, "fatigue as food". Where the crews fatigue slowly drains over the course of the patrol at the same rate, regardless of station, and cannot be recovered. I worked it out to where my crew would be fatigued (red marked) at varing intervals from 60 to 80 days at sea. Only solution that pleased me.

[vodkajello]

I'm using the GW 24 hour model. It works pretty good for me.

I've had very few cases where the crew has pissed me off.



Normally crew rotations would be setup by the respective officer and then administered by the top NCO of that area. I'll have to beat my XO with a stick for not taking care of this. :o

[Sokolov]

i used NYGM fatigue model, i like that fatigue not depends on time boosting, but in some quarters i had change crew every 4 hours, it's too often for me and it's not realistic, when in real life boat had 2 12 hour watches. Can someone tell me pls waht's fatigue model will good for me?

[JScones]

12 hour shifts? Not sure what Navy you are referring to but it ain't the U-bootwaffe.

Usual rotation was 8 hours duty, 8 hours sleep, 8 hours misco tasks (which may include 4 hours watch).

Bridge watch was 4 hour rotations.

Engine room personnel worked 6 hours on, 6 hours off. Rinse and repeat.

Not surprisingly, both GWX and SH3Cmdr include an 8 hour shift model that is prolly about as close to historic reality as possible within the constraints of SH3.

Of course, what's not realistic is expecting the Kaleun to micro manage his crew. He has commissioned and warrant officers for that task, so you may, as realism seems important to you, simply turn it off altogether.

[Sokolov]

well, realism is important for me, but when i had starting play NYGM, every 4-5 hours i got the message that diesel not works, though i had full compartment, if in reality on diesels crew have 6 hour watch, they should be at least work those 6 hours without stopping diesels. Other thing is that the different compartments have different watches like bridge 4 and diesels 6, it's willl tooo often to change crew in compartments, i'm not sure that i'm up for this. The best thing, how i think, it's change crew in compartments every 12 hours, then you have 2 watches in 1 day. It's not so often to change and it's give you some fun with the game. Anyway, the question is for those who used different fatigue models or mods, what's fatigue model most close for it?

[GoDeep]

Well, I agree that the traditional SHIII fatigue model doesn't work very well. And I also totally agree that it seems fairly....retarded to have the crew stop operating the engines when they get too tired. This would not happen in real life, for sure.

However, I am now using GWX3 and am currently on my first patrol with it (been away from subsimming for a while). For the past 2,5 days, my boat has been braving gale force winds and Atlantic storms. Slowly I am seeing all of the crew get tired, which I suppose seems quite realistic. Having to stand watch in such conditions must have been terribly exhausting, as would doing all kinds of other work in a rolling and pitching u-boot. If the men start to become too exhausted, I suppose I will take the boat below and rest the crew for a while. I believe this was common practice when the situation allowed for it.

What I would like would be the ability to set up crew rotation schedules, which would then happen automatically, as it would on a real life boat. This would mean that you could for example make a pool of engine room personnel and watch crews and these would be rotated automatically by the game. The only time it would require intervention would be when crew members became injured or got killed.
As commander of the boat, I want a watch crew on the conning tower when running on the surface, but I don't care if it is Johann or Fritz up there. I should not have to worry about such things.

[Ermintrude]

I think some form of fatigue should be included, but the current model just doesn't work - engines switching off because the crew are too tired is just silly!

Ideally, I think that some compartments should have a minimum number of people to function (a minimum number to reload torpedoes, for example) and the speed or quality of the task should degrade with tired crews. So, a torpedo compartment with a minimum number of exhausted crew would take longer to reload than with a full compliment of fresh crew.

For the engine compartment, tired crew could lead to poorer fuel efficiency, for watchkeepers they might not see an aircraft, for helmsmen they might have poorer depth keeping (perhaps leading to the submarine broaching the surface during an attack if they were exhausted).

[Sokolov]

Exactly question is - if i set up time compression in 3d views to max {1024}, in what fatigue model the crew will get tired more slowly?

[JMV]

Please Heibges, do you have a link for D/L that " Hollywood Model ".
Thanks