Log in

View Full Version : starforce and bismarck


ambrose
04-02-06, 09:02 AM
hi all,
i am new to the silent hunter community -- and billboards in general -- so i thought i would contribute a little something of interest with my first post... but first a question.
i don't yet have sh3, the main reason for this is, of course, starforce. i was wondering if anyone knows whether starforce comes with the no-dvd download of the game available from direct2drive and places like that? any help to how i can avoid a dead disk drive will be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance.

i found this nyt article about the sinking of the bismark at the australian newspaper, the age. i don't know if the story about how she was apparently scuttled not sunk by direct gunfire has been posted already but i think its pretty interesting. maybe someone should come up with a mod that makes the bismark indestructible apart from the rudder!

well, anyway, this forum looks like a great place -- busy and interesting. look forward to shooting the breeze with y'all.
-ambrose




Americans set on sinking a British naval legend

December 4 2002


The Bismarck was the world's most feared warship, a Nazi superweapon meant to sever the convoy lifeline that kept Britain alive in World War II.

Its guns could fire one-tonne shells 38 kilometres. So, upon its debut in 1941, the British responded with everything they had. Resolve stiffened when the Bismarck destroyed the Hood, considered Britain's finest ship, killing all but three of its 1415 men. "Sink the Bismarck!" became the battle cry.

After being pursued by a fleet of British ships and aircraft, and constant pounding by shells and torpedoes, the Bismarck sank 770 kilometres off the coast of France on May 27, 1941. It was the eighth day of the warship's first mission. The victory became a monument of British pride and, in time, a hit film, a popular song and a small industry of Bismarck books and TV shows.

But new evidence, detailed in interviews, videotapes and photographs, suggests the story is wrong. "We conclusively proved there was no way the British sank that ship," said Alfred McLaren, a naval expert who studied the wreck on two expeditions, this year and last. "It was scuttled."

This conclusion is still hotly contested by British researchers. But five expeditions have reconnoitered the site, and three independent teams of American explorers, including Mr McLaren, a retired submariner and emeritus president of the Explorers Club in New York, have concluded that the ship is in surprisingly good shape.


No major damage is visible on the sides of its hull, the US explorers said. That fact alone, they add, suggests the Bismarck was scuttled - as German survivors have claimed all along, in line with their naval tradition of scuttling ships in danger of falling into enemy hands.

The US conclusions have infuriated the British, who denounce them as revisionist claptrap. "I just don't buy it," said David Mearns, who last year led a British expedition to the wreck. "Bismarck was destroyed by British gunnery and sunk by torpedoes."

The latest assault is by James Cameron, director of the 1997 film Titanic. His TV documentary is based on an expedition last year in which he explored the Bismarck with robots and piloted submersibles. The expedition was able to probe the wreckage more thoroughly than earlier investigations.

Would the wounded Bismarck have sunk without the scuttling? "Sure," Mr Cameron said in an interview. "But it might have taken half a day."

In 1941 the British got a break when an aircraft crippled the battleship's rudder with a torpedo. British ships attacked with shells and torpedoes.

Of nearly 2200 men on board the Bismarck, just 115 were rescued. They told of setting off scuttling charges about 30 minutes before the sinking and before the last torpedoes hit.

- New York Times


This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/03/1038712934709.html

vodkajello
04-02-06, 10:19 AM
I have the physical media version, <Please read the FAQ regarding this type of thing JCC> So welcome aboard!

joea
04-02-06, 10:22 AM
This story keeps coming up and is really worthless IMO. The Bismarck's guns were all knocked out and she was floating, but finished as a warship. No way to tow her back and repair her even if the Germans would have got her back to France. The scuttling just finished her off faster.

kenijaru
04-02-06, 10:45 AM
a few things about the HMS Hood, and the days that followed (sinking of the Bismarck)
the HMS Hood wasnt the finest ship, was the biggest ship, yet an old one. was the biggest BC that ever sailed, almost as big as the IJN Yamato... thats HUGE!
also, if the rudder of the Bismarck wouldn't have been hit by that torpedo, maybe, just maybe, the war would have lasted a little longer and the British control of the sea would have been seriously menaced.
the main advantage of the Bismarck's belt, deck and superstructure plating was that it was a hard bone to chew for the british guns, the BBs had to outrun the Bismarck (easier said than done) and get in range (while being outranged) once in range, the Bismarck would still open fire, dealing serious damage, but, as it can be seen here ( http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/wreck/bismarck_wreck_2.html ) a 16" shell fired frome really close pierced through the plating altho it didnt explode.
you might wanna keep in mind that 14.92"(380mm) isnt that much
against 16" (over 400mm)
the point is:
if the bismarck stays away = invincible.
if the british BBs catch up with the Bismarkc and get in range = Bismarck is doomed. (this is what happened)

Schiffmorder
04-02-06, 11:12 AM
HMS Hood wasnt the finest ship, was the biggest ship, yet an old one. was the biggest BC that ever sailed, almost as big as the IJN Yamato... thats HUGE

:down: Ummm might wanna check yer facts there mate. Yamato displaced 730000 tons at full load, Hood only 460000. Ahh heck thats only 27000 tons difference, which is just about what the USS Enterprise displaced!!! So your 'almost' is equal to a full sized WW2 American carrier. :hmm:

ambrose
04-02-06, 11:21 AM
vodkajello: thanks a lot for the info.

Edit Again read the FAQ. We do not discuss this type of thing here

if anyone else has the word on the downloaded game, i'd appreciate it.

joea and kenijaru: its fascinating to me the luck of that one torpedo, like kenijaru said, if it didn't hit the rudder the bismarck would have made the channel dash and maybe got away for a little longer -- most of the damage i think came after that torpedo hit. but then again, joea's point, this didn't happen and the bismark went to the bottom just like the best laid plans.

Dutch
04-02-06, 11:37 AM
My opinion is the British beat the Bismark within an inch of her life, but that the germans sctuddled her after the initial battle.

Yes the British did a bang up number on her, but NO they did not sink her.

Sailor Steve
04-02-06, 02:16 PM
I don't think the British have anything to complain about. Torpedoes or no torpedoes, scuttling or no scuttling, Bismarck was destroyed. As Ambrose quotes Mr. Cameron as saying "Sure, but it might have taken half a day."

In the Sink The Bismarck' documentary, Baron von Mullenheim-Rechsburg (I'm certain I misspelled his name, working from memory), highest ranking Bismarck survivor says "To both sides I say, 'Yes, you sank us'".

BigBadVuk
04-02-06, 05:33 PM
Well reading and rewieving some my old books and new DivX from Discovery and National Geographic i concluded 1 thing:
Bismarck was sunk by torpedo from english cruiser Dorsetshire.Thwe reason why there is no damage on her hull and belt is that by the time the last salvo was fired Bismarck was listing badly already so torpedoes didnt hit him in armour belt, but in upper deck near funnel and catapult&hangar area,smashing through 2 decks and exploding deep inside causing great amount of flooding!
Some other sources confirm this version of events by thing that Bismarcks stern was later torn off from main part of hull by heavy implosion( and implosions are very rare if ship is scutled,becose water is distributed equaly to all compartments).
However 3rd and (my humble opinion) most important thing is that many surivivors from Bismarck and sailors from surounding ships was able to hear his turbine and machinery still workning perfectly inside and his propelers was still revolving.Why is this important...well the standard orders for he kriegsmarine in case of scutling was to first destroy electrical plant,turbines and boilers by placing charges on them, and afther that to open kingstons(valves build in ships for scutling)...So if the german crew was about to scutle their ship they will be blow turbines and there will be no trace of revolving gears inside ship! 1 more thing to remember:All communication was screwd and in that much confusion it was wey hard to determine who has enough high rank to take off comand in his hands and order the scutliing(Admiral and all crew on bridge was killed by 1 single 406mm shell early in first few minutes ),both bridges was destroyed by shells also the conning tower and both directors, so there was so few live unharmed officiers on board...
All in all to cut this loooong story short i think he was sunk by Royal navy!

BigBadVuk
04-03-06, 10:41 AM
another thing onmy mind:...how many sailors surivived totaly...(i mean how many of them finaly managed to touch the dry land)

Catfish
04-04-06, 10:27 AM
Hello,
welcome aboard !
I also don't know why this pops up again and again - i have read some books on that, and for me she was scuttled - she had no chance left anyway.

The Bismarck was on a wide turn to reach the french coast, knowing british battle ships were after her after the first encounter.
Due to its thick armour and sealed compartment structure the Bismarck was virtually unsinkable, torpedoes did not cause much damage. The Bismarck had certainly been damaged before during her fight against the "Hood" and others, and her bow was a bit low in the water.

The Bismarck's radar was a bit better than the british ones, and since she was still fast with more than 27 knots she had a good chance to escape, but only until she was sighted by a PBY Catalina reconnaisssance plane. During the following attack of Swordfish biplanes (launched from carrier Ark Royal) one of the torpedoes struck the stern, damaging the rudders.
Trying to manoeuver with the propellors alone the speed fell drastically, and attempts to repair the rudders failed. After a while she was only able to circle. That is when the first british warship came into firing range.

After most guns were damaged and seeing there was no chance it was the hybris or whatever of the captain who sent this last telegram " ... will fight to the death ... " instead of raising a white flag and give at least his crew a chance to get off the ship in time, and then go down with his ship.

Instead he gave the order to fight on and finally scuttle the ship with the crew aboard. According to witnesses the british warships did not stop firing until there was nothing left to see. Being afraid of U-boats the british ships turned away and no attempt was made to help some 100 surviving shipwrecked sailors.

U-boats that were ordered to the Bismarck's last known position came much too late, and did not find one living person (as far as i read ?). The only boat that was still able to see the Bismarck and her adversaries had run out of torpedoes.

This is certainly not the irrevocably truth, but the quintessence of what i have read on this theme.

Greetings,
Catfish

DeepSix
04-04-06, 03:31 PM
another thing onmy mind:...how many sailors surivived totaly...(i mean how many of them finaly managed to touch the dry land)

*I think*: 3 from the Hood, 115 from the Bismarck.

Mowgli
04-04-06, 04:33 PM
Dont laugh at my age. In 1968 I served aboard HMS Bulwark, there I met a guy called Dereck Shimankee or something soundalike. He told me that his father was a survivor from the Bismark and after being picked up and sent to a prison camp he stayed on in England after the war. He told me that his father said that the torpedoes from the Dorsetshire? went throught the Bismarks crew who were abandoning ship. I dont know - thats just what he told me. Dereck was a great guy and I hope he is still around.

Dutch
04-04-06, 06:03 PM
Yes only 3 men from the Hood survived out of some 1450 men........From what I read one was on his way to the bridge, another had manned a flak (for whatever reasons) and another was delivering something (don't recall) All three were blown into the water, went under once and when they resurfaced the Hood was no longer there some 30s-to 1min later.

To me thats almost unbelievable, gives me the chills.

DeepSix
04-05-06, 12:40 AM
...
All three were blown into the water, went under once and when they resurfaced the Hood was no longer there some 30s-to 1min later.

To me thats almost unbelievable, gives me the chills.

I caught part of a show about Bismarck on History Channel the other day, and the narrator mentioned that one of the Hood's boilers may have exploded beneath the surface as she sank, and the concussion pushed those three survivors back up. One of them was in the program, talking about his experience. He was straightforward and plain spoken about what happened to him, and he was also about as quiet as a ghost. I don't know if it was his normal voice or if it was the emotion of remembering, but something like that would put anybody in whisper.

GlowwormGuy
04-06-06, 07:02 PM
HMS Hood wasnt the finest ship, was the biggest ship, yet an old one. was the biggest BC that ever sailed, almost as big as the IJN Yamato... thats HUGE

:down: Ummm might wanna check yer facts there mate. Yamato displaced 730000 tons at full load, Hood only 460000. Ahh heck thats only 27000 tons difference, which is just about what the USS Enterprise displaced!!! So your 'almost' is equal to a full sized WW2 American carrier. :hmm:

I think he meant just in length, definitely not in weight. Both ships were about 860 ft long.

And speaking of the Yamato, the Americans DID send that one - and her sister MUSASHI - to the bottom and Bismarck being made of metal would definitely sink if enough holes were punched into her. No ship is 'unsinkable' however, as observed here, it would have taken the Brits quite some time to sink her.

However if the Germans knew she wouldn't sink without a pounding the scuttling theory seems quite plausible. No reason to think the Brits wouldn't have tried towing her, even as a battered hulk, back to Britain at least for Propaganda purposes.

Mountbatten