Question about DefSide.cfg of different mods

[LGN1]

Hi,

I am working on a new Flaggen.tga which should include all countries with the dates they were at war with Germany. To find out these dates I have checked the DefSide.cfg of several mods. Unfortunately, they differ for some countries quite drastically (e.g. Denmark). So, is there any DefSide.cfg upon everyone agrees? I would like to make this new Flaggen.tga useable for as many mods as possible. So it would be nice if someone could tell me which is the DefSide.cfg with the highest number of nations and with the most accurate dates.

Thanks a lot!

Cheers, LGN1

[TigerKatziTatzi]

u may to start from here to find the correct dates.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWII

or try to use google and search syntax 'COUNTRYNAME wwii'
this should give u all infos about the certain country.



greetz TKT

[booger2005]

This is more of a complicated and contraversial issue than you realize....

I think the bottom line is that the game is defining sides based on the military/political situation on the land in absolute terms, which is not always legitimate since as a submariner in the game you are primarily worried about civilian targets at sea and how BDU would feel about it in more relative terms. Here is a summary of a couple of points that I am aware of having been debated:

1) Varying degrees of neutrality. This sounds stupid, but nonetheless is a problem. The game only has one type of neutral, and therefore, only 1 choice to either punish or reward a player for sinking a neutral ship (which choice it is is modable) Historicaly, it was sometimes ok (or there was a blind eye turned) to sink technically neutral ships (even if alone), especially if they were in English waters. For example, Prien, Schepke, and Kretschmer all sank lone Norwegian freighters before war was declared on Norway, and these ship's tonnages are fully included in their career totals, and, AFAIK, none of these commanders were formally disciplined for this. However, sinking a United States ship anywhere was almost always frowned upon before Pearl Harbor since Germany didn't want to provoke the US. It was also always frowned upon to sink Spanish ships and many others...

So, in versions of the game where sinking a neutral ship is punished (which is stock game and most if not all major mods), some people have debated that Norway and some other countries should be made allied from the start of the war so they can sink their ships without being punished. Other people disagree....

2) Countries occupied by Germany. In the game we have France and Free France, but really this distinction should apply to all countries that were occupied by Germany. Take your example, Denmark. When the country was occupied, I believe that much of its shipping was taken over and forced to trade between axis ports, while others that were at sea at the time continued to trade between allied ports and sometimes even sailed in allied convoys. Similar things happened in Norway, etc. Now, saying that Denmark was an axis country understandably tends to offend Danes who feel that their country was seriously abused by the Germans, however, I know of at least one Danish ship that was sunk by a British sub as it was trading for the axis. So assingning the loyalties for many countries should go on a ship by ship basis, and when you try to say absolutly that all the ships of x country are on y side (or compromise by making the country neutral), the the entire thing is very contraversial and thats why you are seeing different choices.

3) ships in convoys. I see this as a composite of the two problems mentioned above. All ships in an allied convoy are legitimate targets for the player, and if the particular ship is from a neutral country or occupied country then no matter how that country is being handeled it should be allied while in convoy so the player is not punished for sinking it.

You aren't the only one working on DefSides and Flags, as I know of some work in progress here where someone (the creator of improved convoys I think) is trying to take some rare, unused nations and turn them into the allied analog of neutral/occupied nations for convoy use.
For example, a Norway that is always allied even if regular Norway is neutral but some are opposed to the removal of certain nations to do this.

Anyway, no one DefSides.cfg is absolutly agreed or agreed apon by everybody, sorry :(

Hope this helped.

[jasonb885]

This is more of a complicated and contraversial issue than you realize....
...
1) Varying degrees of neutrality. This sounds stupid, but nonetheless is a problem. The game only has one type of neutral, and therefore, only 1 choice to either punish or reward a player for sinking a neutral ship (which choice it is is modable) Historicaly, it was sometimes ok (or there was a blind eye turned) to sink technically neutral ships (even if alone), especially if they were in English waters. For example, Prien, Schepke, and Kretschmer all sank lone Norwegian freighters before war was declared on Norway, and these ship's tonnages are fully included in their career totals, and, AFAIK, none of these commanders were formally disciplined for this. However, sinking a United States ship anywhere was almost always frowned upon before Pearl Harbor since Germany didn't want to provoke the US. It was also always frowned upon to sink Spanish ships and many others...

So, in versions of the game where sinking a neutral ship is punished (which is stock game and most if not all major mods), some people have debated that Norway and some other countries should be made allied from the start of the war so they can sink their ships without being punished. Other people disagree....


Wow, I can fix that. I forgot that each nation's side also defined the color of cities, so I hadn't thought about it. However, I can change all single merchant traffic for Norway to NOCnvy or whatever I called the always-at-War Norway nation so that all shipping, not just in convoys, is always 'hostile' for Norway. That will resolve this issue, I believe, in some sense. Of course, the 'kind of' neutral state won't be represented, then. All Norweigan ships will show up as hostile while the land bases will follow the original game definitions. There won't be any "this ship is neutral and appears neutral on the map with God's Eye, but maybe I can sink it anyway..." kind of decision making process...


2) Countries occupied by Germany. In the game we have France and Free France, but really this distinction should apply to all countries that were occupied by Germany. Take your example, Denmark. When the country was occupied, I believe that much of its shipping was taken over and forced to trade between axis ports, while others that were at sea at the time continued to trade between allied ports and sometimes even sailed in allied convoys. Similar things happened in Norway, etc. Now, saying that Denmark was an axis country understandably tends to offend Danes who feel that their country was seriously abused by the Germans, however, I know of at least one Danish ship that was sunk by a British sub as it was trading for the axis. So assingning the loyalties for many countries should go on a ship by ship basis, and when you try to say absolutly that all the ships of x country are on y side (or compromise by making the country neutral), the the entire thing is very contraversial and thats why you are seeing different choices.


Hmm. Given that, I'd have to make all Norweigan ships enemy until they're actually considered friendly to Germany, then. I guess otherwise it wouldn't work out, as otherwise NOCnvy would always be enemy when Norway's single ship traffic is enemy...

Thoughts?


3) ships in convoys. I see this as a composite of the two problems mentioned above. All ships in an allied convoy are legitimate targets for the player, and if the particular ship is from a neutral country or occupied country then no matter how that country is being handeled it should be allied while in convoy so the player is not punished for sinking it.

You aren't the only one working on DefSides and Flags, as I know of some work in progress here where someone (the creator of improved convoys I think) is trying to take some rare, unused nations and turn them into the allied analog of neutral/occupied nations for convoy use.
For example, a Norway that is always allied even if regular Norway is neutral but some are opposed to the removal of certain nations to do this.

Anyway, no one DefSides.cfg is absolutly agreed or agreed apon by everybody, sorry :(

Hope this helped.

This issue has been resolved in IC, at least to my satisfaction.

Norway is always enemy in a convoy, as is Greece, Sweden (was previously always neutral), Netherlands, U.S., and another I forget this morning.

Nothing that actually shows up in IC convoys is missing as far as I know.

And I added Panamanian ships as enemy.

:up:

[Rubini]

booger2005
-I agree 100% with you. Great analyze and text! :up:

Rubini.

[LGN1]

@ booger2005: Thanks a lot for this thorough and nice explanation!


I guess I will just wait until Rubini will release his final campaign version (together with HanSolo/U-Boat Aces ?). Then I will use the defSide.cfg of this mod for my Flaggen.tga update.

Cheers, LGN1

[jasonb885]

@ booger2005: Thanks a lot for this thorough and nice explanation!


I guess I will just wait until Rubini will release his final campaign version (together with HanSolo/U-Boat Aces ?). Then I will use the defSide.cfg of this mod for my Flaggen.tga update.

Cheers, LGN1

What is a Flaggen.tga mod?

:hmm:

[LGN1]

A while ago I was fed up of sinking neutral ships because I did not know the status of some countries which were introduced with the nationality mod. I used this map mod of FLBSaleU-999 (the mod with convoy map, mine positions in harbours, speed chart,...) and knew that there was this Flaggen.tga file which you could drag&drop from the upper left corner of your UZO/Periscope (I think it is also included in GW). Unfortunately, not many countries were represented there so I did a new one for the Living Silent Hunter mod (campaign mod from german guys).

Now, I want to update it for other campaigns and include other countries. But for this I need the DefSide.cfg of these campaigns to enter the right dates.


Edit: Here is a picture:

http://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flaggen8cc.jpg

[booger2005]

@jasonb885

Your the work in progress I mentioned I think... sorry for not mentioning you directly by name, but I wasn't for certain who was working on it and I was too lazy to look.

I hope someday you will be successful to add the always at war nations rather than substitute in (you've said that's what you want to do too). I was kind of looking foreward to one day seeing some of the Nationalities 3.0 nations in game, even the vary rare ones. I don't think Czechia existed in WWII (Bohemian Protectorate?) but the others all existed AFAIK and many lost ships to u-boats.

[LGN1]

Edit: New version in work!

[jasonb885]

@jasonb885

Your the work in progress I mentioned I think... sorry for not mentioning you directly by name, but I wasn't for certain who was working on it and I was too lazy to look.

I hope someday you will be successful to add the always at war nations rather than substitute in (you've said that's what you want to do too). I was kind of looking foreward to one day seeing some of the Nationalities 3.0 nations in game, even the vary rare ones. I don't think Czechia existed in WWII (Bohemian Protectorate?) but the others all existed AFAIK and many lost ships to u-boats.

Sergbuto has the magic. I don't know how to add nations.

Practically, I don't feel -- personally -- that it matters if, no disrepect, minor nations aren't represented. I practically represented every nationality that sailed in convoys.

After awhile it gets out of hand. Someone certainly could go through the known rosters of ships that sailed and accurately rebuild each and every convoy so it sails in the game. But, that's just nuts.

To each his own, I guess.