View Full Version : German school capitulates to ethnic violance
Skybird
03-30-06, 05:06 PM
... but left and green politicians are already there again to declare that it all is not so bad.
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/03/30/867413.html
http://archiv.tagesspiegel.de/archiv/31.03.2006/2443961.asp
http://morgenpost.berlin1.de/content/2006/03/31/politik/820170.html
In Berlin, the first school in Germany has switched it's working conditions to red alert. Teachers got attacked, things get thrown at them, chairs and boxes get thrown out of windows, vandalism is considered to be "in", teachers only dare to enter classes with their handies ready to call for help. The scenes to be seen on TV were chaotic. Juveniles are short of attacking camera men. Private guards to protect the houses seem to be helpless - they tell people to go away, then retreat into the building and close and lock the doors. Only a handful of students in classes, druing hours, the rest on the street, fighting, or smoking, or hanging around. Violence and gang clashes are daily routine. The teachers have given up and demanded in an open letter that the schoold should be closed and disbanded.
Berlin police said yesterday that at least thirty schools in Berlin are known centres for gang-buuilding and hotspots for recrutiing young ones for gangs and organized crime. Severe violence (physical, drugs, sexual attacks) are on the daily chart. First schools in Germany have started to separate students from different schools using the same schoolyard by high scurity fences - scenes like from a prison yard, but the aggression is just redirected, not controlled.
Reports like these are circulating in German Tv since quite some time now. And always my impression was: I see a vast majority of non-German teens and juveniles, only a small number of Germans there. So far it was an subjective impression, and telling that loiud would have earned me an accusation of being a racist in Germany. since yesterday, official numbers had been published. In the example of the school in berlin, only 13% there are Germans, while 87% are foreigners. One third and one quarter are Albanians and Turks, then quite some others, 13% Germans - a minority. Germans a minority in a German school???. The school is located in a central sector of Berlin, Neukölln, with high crime and high unemployment: up to 45%. It is problematic ground. Part of the violence is due to the lack of perspectives. But the conflict also describes psychological realities. They do not want to be so much German as that they would be considered to be German. And Germans do not want so many strangers like the politicians are pushing in, which creates a growing unwillingness of Germans to give the strangers chances to integrate themselves. Russians and Poles have it easier, they are closer to our culture and habits, often have german roots in their families, try harder to adopt, to fit in, learn the language. Arabas, Truks and people from the Balkans, and muslims in general, are not perceived to be so close to us and our origins in history, traditon, culture. Which only is correct. It is a fact. We have far more in common with the Germans in Russia thta now are coming back, than with the for example Turkmen (originating from nothern Iran and Afghanistan). there are differences in general mentalities. It is easier for us to deal with german Russians and Poles, than with Arabs. Hell, there are differences in the mentalities and ways of behaving even between the people inside Europe! All this does not make it easier to create perspectives for the students at this school. Truth is, if oyu nail it down: many people do not want to give strnagers like them chances to settle down in Germany. They are not wanted. It is not fair to them, I agree. It also is not fair that our politicians push forward the idea to call in even more of them. And it is not fair towards Germans that they are told again and again that they have to want more of them. More and more Germans want NOT. since politicans have created a mess that only creates unfairness to all, why are politicians not sent to hell, simply?
I know that Germans are fleeing the city since the mid-90s. Due to mismanagement and a fincial scandal, the city has sensationally high debts that dooms it's politicians to be out of action for decades to come. Due to the evading Germans, ansd the incoming immigrants who do not propduce tax incomes like economical businessmen, but often hit the social budgets of the city, the finance of Berlin are in a very critical condition. Germans drive in to work there, but leave after work, and the surrounding area is another federal state than Berlin itself, so the city does need to pay them for their work, but does not get sufficient taxes, and thus: income for the city's treasurechest.
I know from ex-colleagues who are streetworkers that the situation cnstantly is detoriating, and since some time also is getting more and more dangerous with regard to physical violence. And pverty amongst children is exploding. statistically every 5th schoolchuldren under the age of 15 gets a hot meal only every 3rd day at home, since the parents do not have any money to pay for more. These kids depend on the meals being given by private charity projects. Of these there are not so much, private charity work has not that strong tradition in Germany and many other european countries like in anglosaxon countries. Nevertheless - Germany is considered to be one of the wealthiest nations on the globe.
This all reminds me very much of the very tensed and highly critical situation in suburbs of French major cities, namely Paris and Marseille. Only that due to the longer "preparation time" the pressure has had to mount upin Berlin, and several other German cities were this developing MCA stubbornly is ognored by sociologists and politicians (even is actively denied), maybe will lead to a far greater social explosion. And of course, lacking integration, lacking willingness to do so, lacking willingness of local resdients to accept a flood of foreoigners being rushed to their places, has something to do with it. But this unwelcomed truth is denied again these days by politicians.
The end of mutlicultural wischiwaschi-dreams. Quote: "Früher haben die Türken die Afrikaner gejagt. Jetzt jagen die Araber die Türken." (In the past the Turks hunted the Africans. Today the Arabs hunt the Turks).
The Berlin senate, in all his well-wishing and good intentions (what else!?) has decided to send two socialworkers to that school that are fluid in arabaic and Turkish language. Aren'T these kids not expected to speak German when having a German passport? Two socialworkers certainly will get under control what has been allowed since twenyt to go beyond control. Oh, and since today teachers enter and leave the shcool under police protection
Still wanting mutli-culti, and even more foreigners from Arabic, Turkish and Balkan regions? Na dann Prost, meine lieben weichgespülten Landsleute. :up: The events may be politically uncorrect, and may be ignored by planners and wishers and strategists in Brussel - but they are a hard, solid social reality on the ground. It does not go away just because some smart humansists want it to go away. I stays, and mounts in pressure and destructive energy.
And not only in Berlin, Germany.
Welcome to the world of England’s schools in are case teachers have so many stupid rules to follow and the kids can get away with it. :nope:
micky1up
03-30-06, 06:38 PM
yep we have similar problems in the uk but not so extreme maybe the intergration of these minority groups could be handled better, this i feel is going to bring down the EU unless it is checked how they are going to handle it i dont know but i feel shutting the borders maybe the only solution ,this is the PC world we live in now and its gonna take a hell of lot to get it back to what i would call normality
TteFAboB
03-30-06, 07:22 PM
It was inevitable wasn't it, with the sectarian policy, making schools for Muslims only or whatever, with only a handful of locals always as a minority. Great way to get foreigners integrated and make them feel at home...at their old home, or their new segregated home, as they live in their own special neighborhoods too don't they? And only have contact with others of their own, don't they?
It's like living in a bubble. How long can it last?
Sixpack
03-31-06, 02:26 AM
The first and foremost cause of our societal problems today are our own people. I am not (primarily) talking politics here. I am going to let that one sink in for a while now............ :lol:
Okay, check the unemployment rates in Germany and Holland in the last 2 decades, and specifically today because today we can make changes.
I wont beat around the bush with you: Shot term thinking companies are already screaming bloody murder again about the lack of good employees now and in the forseeable future. Already they are talking more immigration, regardless the present issues in society. Those silly cretins.
I say the employers should make good use of the vast army of unemployed first (train them fcol !! It's not as if most jobs are as tough as job descriptions would suggest) and cut very heavy on the (unemployment) social welfare to get the lazy bums among the number of unemployed back to work (for money). They lose their houses when they'd refuse to cooperate ? Good ! We have a shortage of houses, so working people can move into their houses.
In short, if we would use our present labor potential wiser, there would not be so much need for immigrants (of whom almost half soon ends up unemployed or 'disabled' anyway :down: )
And must I remind you our world is still getting more and more technologized every day ? It's an irreversible process. And internet speeded it up. I foresee a not so distant future (can take 3 or more generations still, depending on world affairs; after all, everything is interconnected) in which actual smart robots have actually taken over a great (like 60%) part of the service business people do today, let alone in factories. I forsee a western society in which leasure will become the main thing. Yes indeed.
Economic principles will get a whole new meaning. Distribution of money will be different. It's ironic and perhaps scary to some but that way we'll be heading to a sort of economic communism lead by a relatively small elite of rulers (we will be made to believe it's still democracy) but without the totalitarian regime.
Anyway, IMO there's no more immigration needed in the next 10 years if we now change our social welfare system drastically and thus actually motivate many unemployed to get back to work plus at the same time order companies to hire unemployed of all ages, and reward/compensate them i.e. by lower taxes on their wages. For sure saves alot of money compared to the costs of immigration and the pointless integration of many muslims.
Welcome to the world of England’s schools in are case teachers have so many stupid rules to follow and the kids can get away with it. :nope:
Speaking as one who has not been educated at public school - no of course not, never been, don't know what you're talking about, what school tie reunion is that? :oops: :oops: ;)
Private schools are the way forward, pay to send your kids to schools where the rabble cannot afford to get places ;)
Better staff, better facilities, better behaviour, better teaching, better chances = better people (from a social behaviour point of view as regards violence and 'gang' culture in schools today).
Given the choice I wouldn't send my kids to a state run school, no chance.
jumpy, I was referring to State run schools and as for private a better class person not likely our Prime Minister is opening the door for the misfits. I wonder what a private school will be like in 20 years from now. As for the remark a better class person your joking these people also snort cocaine, drink large volumes of alcohol live for money back stab their friends and so on these people are just as bad but in a different way. ;)
yer, I hope you saw the funny side of what I was saying :)
I wouldn't touch a state school with a bargepole and my experience of private school is pretty much par for the course :)
In comparrison between kids at a state run school and those from a private establishment, the kids at private school were on the whole better behaved at school than those of their state counterparts- the sort of thing that seems acceptable at state run school would have got me a pasting at private school... seems that the level of disciplin and respect for the school is no longer instilled at state schools.
And as for a 'better class' of person I was only really refering to their behaviour whilst attending schooling; not so much yobbish behaviour- what they become after leaving school was not in question. :roll:
Unfortunately, these days you can't help but live for money... just the way society works now :( But I take solace in the fact that I'm public school educated and I turned out a fairly decent person, even if I may say so myself *regards others with a lofty expression* :rotfl:
Really, it's a shame that schools of all kinds have these stupid 'don't interfere with my life justification/validation as a pain in the arse' things, if more of these violent little s***'s got the occasional thrashing in their former years then they might grow up with a little more respect for their elders and betters... but now I'm harking back to the bygone era where people actually gave a s**t about anything; no doubt the same era that these uncaring ppl would consider as the dark days of institutionalised oppression and backwardness ...halcyon days :hmm:
Still wanting mutli-culti, and even more foreigners from Arabic, Turkish and Balkan regions?
What? Since when are the Balkans not part of Europe? WHAT Balkans do you meant in fact?
Hey jumpy, as you said the problem is the Cain and slipper have been banned result no discipline and the stupid rules teachers have to follow, one prime example they can place a band aid on a child what a joke. :nope:
TteFAboB
03-31-06, 07:04 AM
Still wanting mutli-culti, and even more foreigners from Arabic, Turkish and Balkan regions?
What? Since when are the Balkans not part of Europe? WHAT Balkans do you meant in fact?
The Muslim part, if that wasn't obvious enough.
Skybird
03-31-06, 07:17 AM
Still wanting mutli-culti, and even more foreigners from Arabic, Turkish and Balkan regions?
What? Since when are the Balkans not part of Europe? WHAT Balkans do you meant in fact?
Hm? Did I say Balkans is (geographically) not Europe? It's the outer rim, a zone of transition where europe fades out, the Orient comes in, and both also faces Slawic Christian orthodxy. But the Muslim culture, Balkan or not, certainly is no part of Europe.
Ahh I see so, in your view, Greek, Bulgarian or Slovenians would fit as immigrants (I know there are many Greeks in Western Europe) say in Germany, but not Bosnian or Albanian muslims? Albanian catholics ok though? Reason I am asking is in Switzerland there were large numbers of Kosovar refugees (Muslims) during and after the wars and upheavals of the 1990s..and there was a lot of tension as a result.
Konovalov
03-31-06, 08:21 AM
But the Muslim culture, Balkan or not, certainly is no part of Europe.
No Muslims full stop I would say, right Sky?
No Muslims be they black, white, brown. No Muslims be they from the Middle East, the USA, Australia, Africa or wherever. No Muslims be they highly skilled workers, doctors, dentists, chemists. But what would you do with those German citizens who are Muslim Sky? What would you like your government to do? How would you like this problem dealt with? You must have some ideas surely.
Would I be able to travel to your country for a holiday? Should there be a law that a persons religion must be stated on their passport/identification papers? Or should this be taken further with some form of visual ID/marking on ones person that indicates them being Muslim? Could I take up employment in your country on a work permit visa with my parent company in Germany?
TLAM Strike
03-31-06, 09:09 AM
Don’t send kids to private schools once they have been in public schools unless those schools are REALLY bad. I attended public school from Pre to 3rd grade then in 4th grade I went to a private school- St. Theodore’s a catholic school. In the end my education got really screwed up. The next year I went back to public school and found I was at least a year behind my schoolmates and a few skills even got worse. That followed me till around sophomore year when I finally caught up (although my math and hand writing are still bad.) :damn:
Skybird
03-31-06, 09:26 AM
But the Muslim culture, Balkan or not, certainly is no part of Europe.
No Muslims full stop I would say, right Sky?
No Muslims be they black, white, brown. No Muslims be they from the Middle East, the USA, Australia, Africa or wherever. No Muslims be they highly skilled workers, doctors, dentists, chemists. But what would you do with those German citizens who are Muslim Sky? What would you like your government to do? How would you like this problem dealt with? You must have some ideas surely.
Would I be able to travel to your country for a holiday? Should there be a law that a persons religion must be stated on their passport/identification papers? Or should this be taken further with some form of visual ID/marking on ones person that indicates them being Muslim? Could I take up employment in your country on a work permit visa with my parent company in Germany?
Inside europe, and the West - Europe/West (culture, religion, traditions, habits, values, laws) goes first. You know I see Islam as an aggressive ideology aiming at expansion, no matter how. My Muslim neighbour next door may be a kind and nice guy - but the sheer fact that he is here helps islam to spread in europe. I define Islam on the basis of Quran, Hadith, the example set by Muhammad's life. according to that, you, Konovalov, does not qualify in my eyes to be a full Muslim - which is absolutely no offending, from my perspective. I expect that if we would meet, your wife would not be hesitent to shake hands with me, and would not wore a veil or burka. You probably do not do a lot of things that according to Quran and sharia you would be obligated to do - if you were a real Muslim in Muhammd's understanding. I expect you do not argue that a Christian cross at a construction place for a mosque should be removed. You certainly do not demand that Europe has to give up oarts of itslef to let Islam in. Do you?
But the aggressiveness of Islam in Europe and it's attempt to tackle traditional cultural barriers hindering it, and bring down laws and structures that are typical for our societies, but are not to it's liking, is increasing. Not one week in Germany were not a new case at court has been reported on wheere some muslim man or women tried to overcome such "barriers" because they are not in correspondence with their Islamic view from their religious perpective. People have started to relaize that constitutions that are based on the principle of separation between poltiics and religion are almost defenseless against an intolerant ideology that is exactly the opposite - that is basing on the unity of politics and religion.
Truth is, Konovalov, the sheer existence of so many Muslims in our societies pushes Islam forward, no matter if these people are nice and kind or not. this is not the criterion. The ideology that is helped to spread by that is the criterion. You are right, i do not care if Muslims are of this or that skin colour. I demand them to fully submit to our local cultural dominance, and where there is conflict between their values and ours, they have to step back - or leave the country, to live a Muslim life in a musolim country. At no cost I want to live in an increasingly Muslim society, it is to rigid, to backward, too primitve for me. Not the smallest sympathy from me. While crime rate and unemployment is not exclusively a Muslim problem in Germany, it nevertheless is an important variable linked to that. It illustrates a sociological and psychological reality that is different, but hard fact, than what well-wishing politicians and humansits want it to be. It simply says: people prefer to stick to people like themselves, they do not want to have too many foreigners in their middle. and that is true not only for Europeans, but for all other socieities around the globe as well. That is a preference that is encoded in our nature, I assume. One could mix it up with racism, but it is not. It simply says that there are differences between people, and their mentalities. The differences between the Orient'S and Europe's history in the last thousand years, and the differences between Islam and chrsitian tradition does not exactly help to delete these differences between people.
Would I welcome you in Germany? Yes, but only as long as you do not propagate in any means the spreading of Islam. concenring the many immigrants we already have: there are those who tried to adopt to local habits and customs, and fully merge into our society. They are welcomed to stay. But those who are here since 10, 20, 30 years, but still haven't leanred our local language, denying their hosting nation even the smallest ammount of respect by that, should leave, yes. I insist on any immigrant wanting to live in Grmany, that he must have that truly and deeply wish to become a german, not only by passport, but by ethical and value-related convictions, understanding of legal principles in Western laws, ways of social interaction and behavior. I also reserve the right to ask immigrants what they have to offer in return that is of value for us, in exchange for us accepting them in our middle. I do not want a growing personell basis to strengthen increasing subcultures in Germany that areerdoing our culture and constitutional order.
There is a saying, it goes somehow like this. If oyu let in a single muslim, due to the unique structure and selfunderstanding of Islam you have let in all the world's Islam as well, which this single person represents. I see some truth in that. Islam is no guest willing to be one guest amongst others. He wants to become the ruler of the house. That's why I have become more and more less reluctant to kick his ass out.
It comes down to this, Konovalov. When a foreigner is in our place, he plays according to our rules and habits and step back whenever these are in conflict with his. Else he leaves voluntarily, or we reserve the right to kick him out in an act of self-defense.
You may agree or not, Konovalov, but this does not change the fact that on the presence of so many foreigners in general and muslims in special creates sociological conflicts on the ground that are a reality - no matter if you like that or not. And they turn into more and more violant potentials. It's simply does not work like multi-kulti-fans would like to have it in their imagination.
What I want my government to do? change immigration rules. Immigrants should proove why they are of value for german society, they must comply with the local resident'S justified demand that they fully accept their rules and culture and do not wish to raise their own subculture, and they must stop pressing for the spreading of Islam in special, they also have to explain in writing why they do wish to become german by heart and mind. In general, this is not much different than what you need to do if you wish to become and american for example. americas rules in this regard are much tighter than German ones, currently. Also, learning german language is a MUST. If it is not fulfilled after a reasonable ammount of time, they have to leave again.
You must not claim your rleigion in your passport. If you do no active missionizing and stop building more and more mosques and "culturee centres" and would stop to demand from Germans to adopt for example public laws or details concerning public schools accoriding to Islamic interests, that would be sufficient.
Working visa: yes, if you have to offer us a skill that we are in ned of. If you just add a widespread job offer to the thosuands of such offers that are already on the market and a burden to the high unemployment, then you would not get such a visa from me. which again is the way how several Western countries already handle it.
Would you like me and other coming to australia and strating to tell you that you Australians have to start changing things and making it accropding to how we live in Germany? ;) If I go there, I am a guest, and so I behave like a guest, that is a simple matter of rles of politeness. Islam in Germany and other european countries more and more often starts to behave as if it is an equal to it's host, or even a master. and you wonder why people like me turn stubborn?
But the Muslim culture, Balkan or not, certainly is no part of Europe.
You are wrong. Pre-1492 Muslim-to-the-bone Spain was in full bloom. Treaties of medicine, chemistry, philosophy, astronomy, works of literature and arts were of highest standards and stand up to today's scrutiny. Plenty of that findings contributed massively to the progress of late maedieval Europe. Discarding en masse achievements of Muslim culture and its achievements is fundamentally wrong. We must observe the "slight" difference between Muslim culture in general and people, who often, willingly or not turn it into its nightmarish caricature.
Pole
put the offenders behind bars (and keep them there!) because of the crimes they commit, not because of their colour or creed
Precisely. Outlaws are outlaws regardless of race, progeny, faith, you name it. I don't care if they arrest Bosnian Muslim, Polish Catholic, German Lutheran or Swedish Calvinist. Law is one and for all. I know it is truism but I post it anyway in the context of few posts above regarding "Muslims in general"
Pole
Skybird
03-31-06, 10:13 AM
But the Muslim culture, Balkan or not, certainly is no part of Europe.
You are wrong. Pre-1492 Muslim-to-the-bone Spain was in full bloom. Treaties of medicine, chemistry, philosophy, astronomy, works of literature and arts were of highest standards and stand up to today's scrutiny. Plenty of that findings contributed massively to the progress of late maedieval Europe. Discarding en masse achievements of Muslim culture and its achievements is fundamentally wrong. We must observe the "slight" difference between Muslim culture in general and people, who often, willingly or not turn it into its nightmarish caricature.
Pole
Hehe, again this nonsens argument comes up. If I may quote myself from one of my previous writings on this often distorted detail:
An especially popular myth is that of the tolerant and peaceful caliphate in Cordoba, which often is referred to as an evidence of how cultivated and tolerant Islam is towards other cultures. That is complete nonsense, unfortunately. It is true that Christian and Jews were living in Cordoba, and that the very first Caliphs of Cordoba were a bit more tolerant than many other Islamic rulers. It also is true that in that epoch major scriptures from the heritage of ancient Greek culture as well as Christian scriptures, that both later influenced and facilitated the renaissance and the enlightenment, were translated and stored in archives without which they probably would have been lost. It also is true that sciences saw a blossoming during the time of the Cordoba Caliphate, and that a huge diversity of Islamic philosophers went there and formed new ways of thinking and theological dispute.
But if anyone would take from that that Cordoba was a heaven-like coexistence of two cultures, he couldn’t be more wrong.
Because the Christians and Jews lived by rule of the Islamic ahl al-dhimma, which was a system not of tolerance and protection, but of brutal suppression, discrimination, racism, financial plundering and intimidation, they were subject to excessive penalty taxes, that were the main basis for the material wealth of the Caliphate at that time. It were also the Christians and Jews that initiated the translation and conservation of old Greek and Christian texts, which was tolerated by the Muslim rulers only because occasionally they could make opportunistic use of their content for Islamic purposes. But they neither assimilated these pieces of knowledge in to their culture, nor did they develop a liberal attitude in their acting and ruling of Cordoba, or Islam in general. They were using a tool, nothing more. Like always, Islam only exploited the resources available in newly conquered territories, but it did not assimilate these into it’s own culture, never – one of the most typical characteristics of Islam (that hardly can be understood and interpreted as a sign of tolerance and liberal tradition with regard to foreign cultures). Muslim sciences blossomed indeed in Cordoba, but their range were extremely limited, as it always was and still is in Islam. In Islam only sciences are allowed that are not able to question the only accepted source of explanations, that is the Quran. Questioning the Quran, wanting to gain answers to existential question from other sources than Quran, is under penalty in Islam. Sciences that are aiming at insights that could become rivals to the Quran’s demand to be the only source of wisdom and insight, were not and still are not allowed. Sciences that have a chance to produce alternative explanations and different theories than what the scriptures have to say are considered to be sinful, and forbidden. No wonder then, that sciences like mathematics and surgery saw a cultural climax that made them superior to the scientific knowledge within Europe at that time, whereas natural sciences, philosophy and such were suppressed and eradicated, until today. Most of those Islamic philosophers and theologians the defenders of the Cordoba-thesis are so eager to refer to, when telling people how wonderful Islam was for Europe during that age, are ignoring the simple fact, that most of these agile minds and rebels found an early end either in prison cells, or in graves. The blossoming of Cordoba wouldn’t have been possible without the knowledge and intelligence of the suppressed Jews and Christians, and the immense income they generated by their penalty taxes. Muslims took the benfit from this blossoming of culture, but they added little or nothing to it, and especially they did not initiate it. And although during a certain period of time the usual progroms and violence against Christians and Jews in general saw a relative low during the early period of Cordoba, they nevertheless were treated with disgust and were sometimes hunted and slaughtered nevertheless. A practice that erupted into far higher violence once the Almohades took over the ruling of the Islamic sphere. They erected a most violent and brutal regime all over the Muslim world.
Seen in this light, Hammas’ recent call for restoring the paradise-like order of Cordoba and reconquer it for Islam is not only absurd, but such a ridiculous perversion of history that one can only bitterly laugh about the lies this demand comprises. The massive exploitation of Christian and Jewish culture in that place may have been of fun and of use for Islam – for the Christians and Jews who lived there when Islam attacked their country, it was a dramatic tragedy and an age of suppression, regular massmurder and sometimes slavery-like conditions. We have no reason to enthuse about the magic and wonder of the age of Cordoba. It was Islamic aggressive conquest, suppression and exploitation, nothing else.
Skybird
03-31-06, 10:16 AM
You probably do not do a lot of things that according to Quran and sharia you would be obligated to do - if you were a real Muslim in Muhammd's understanding.
Does this also imply that you're not a real christian in your view, if you don't feel that your neighbour should be killed although you find out that he has worked on a Sunday?
(Exodus 35:2: "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.")
I'm no Christian. ;)
The esssence of chrstianity is to be found in the teachings of Jesus, as far as I'm concerned. the old testament - well, history has moved beyond that. I don't fall for such stuff.
Hehe, again this nonsens argument comes up. If I may quote myself from one of my previous writings on this often distorted detail
That's not a valid point. Do you want to negate all of that times' contributions towards the continent's development? Were other countries more liberal at that time? No, they were so not.
Pole
Skybird
03-31-06, 10:22 AM
No Muslims be they black, white, brown. No Muslims be they from the Middle East, the USA, Australia, Africa or wherever. No Muslims be they highly skilled workers, doctors, dentists, chemists. But what would you do with those German citizens who are Muslim Sky? What would you like your government to do? How would you like this problem dealt with? You must have some ideas surely.
Don't be too surprised if he proposes a new Wannsee conference...
What I'd like my own government to do, is to prioritize police efforts to those areas where crime rates are skyrocketing and put the offenders behind bars (and keep them there!) because of the crimes they commit, not because of their colour or creed. Some groups are over represented in the crime statistic, so it'd be sensible to concentrate police efforts where those groups are to be found.
If you just get rid of entire groups, be it by resettlement to Madagaskar or be it by Zyklon B, the majority of the people you hurt will be innocent. Lock up the criminals and leave the rest in peace. Better still, lock up the criminals who are citizens and send the non citizens home, where you pay their country to lock them up in a local prison.
It was Muhammad, not me, telling people that any infidels should be overcome by whatver force and tool needed - they shall be converted, or be killed. The status of "dhimmi" is not really a protective arrangement for the "people of the book", butorganized discirmination, for Islam demands that Jews and christians must be made feel inferior and ashamed for not wanting to convert to Islam. and it was muhammad and muslims coming after him forming a canon of scriptures that explains in most explcits pitctures how diabloc infidels should be brought from life to death in the most cruel ways and tortures, like drowning them in boiling waters, strangulate them with burning iron chains, letting them feel the pain as intense as possible as a justified penalty send by Allah for their lacking faith into him. O Goa'uld he was, I would say :lol:
(…) Another misunderstanding of the West is with regard to the term ahl al-dhimma, which is misunderstood as a protective tolerance for members of different religions living in Islamic countries. As I have argued and illustrated in a longer thread weeks ago, in historical reality it was a status of discrimination and oppression that led as far as to regular progroms, living in ghettos, being subject to excessive taxes, and wearing discriminative clothing. Muslim children even had the right to kill Jewish males „for fun“ by throwing stones without having to fear penalties, and with rare exceptions jobs with some higher social reputation were forbidden, especially for Jews. There are some interesting Jewish historical figures, though, that made a career as Royal doctors, and higher servants in the administrative structures, though, but these are exceptions. The oppression under the covering of the dhimma-system was especially high during the ruling of the Almohades, and covered almost all Muslim territory from Spain to Persia. (…) http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48105
Skybird
03-31-06, 10:29 AM
Hehe, again this nonsens argument comes up. If I may quote myself from one of my previous writings on this often distorted detail
That's not a valid point. Do you want to negate all of that times' contributions towards the continent's development? Were other countries more liberal at that time? No, they were so not.
Pole
That does not mean that Islam was any better. It was - and is - by far the most aggressivly pushing religious faction of all time.
But I have explained all this in detail time and again. You people simply do not look for it.
Not that I have already posted these links time and again... :lol:
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/HistoryOfIslam_2_IslamQuranHadith.doc
ttp://people.freenet.de/Skybird/DialogueWithIslam.rtf
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/BOI.doc
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/HistoryOfIslam_1_Forword.doc
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=27048&highlight=turkey
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48105&highlight=dialogue
All stuff from these threads:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48674&highlight=dialogue
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48105&highlight=dialogue
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=27048&highlight=turkey
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47650&highlight=
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45065&highlight=history+islam
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47650&highlight=
TLAM Strike
03-31-06, 12:15 PM
O Goa'uld he was, I would say :lol:
Ya know some of those leaders in the Middle East do seem to be over the top, egocentric, megalomaniacs… :hmm:
Skybird
03-31-06, 12:30 PM
You probably do not do a lot of things that according to Quran and sharia you would be obligated to do - if you were a real Muslim in Muhammd's understanding.
Does this also imply that you're not a real christian in your view, if you don't feel that your neighbour should be killed although you find out that he has worked on a Sunday?
(Exodus 35:2: "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.")
I'm no Christian. ;)
The esssence of chrstianity is to be found in the teachings of Jesus, as far as I'm concerned. the old testament - well, history has moved beyond that. I don't fall for such stuff.
Neither am I, but that wasn't the question. We just learned what it takes to be a real muslim, so I'm curious what it takes to be a real christian. Can a christian disregard the old testament and still be a real christian?
The core of the question is, if a real muslim has to buy the Sharia and all that fundamentalist cr@p, does a real christian have to do the same?
I want to know if the criteria for being a 'real' follower of a religion is different depending on the religion you follow.
bible and Qu'Ran do not compare. IMO the whole Qu'ran is of the quality and style and level like the Old testament. Also, you cannot separate Sharia and Qu'ran, like you try to do. Sharia is meant as a tool to make the believer sticking to the belief that the Qu'Ran is the only valid source of truth and devine enlightenment, by putting sanctions on not believing so. Sharia is the form, Qu'ran is the essence, the content of the form. Sharia and Qu'ran work hand in hand, cannot be seen as two separate qualties. They are like two sides of one and the same coin. In contrast I would reject a statement saying that Jesus' sermon on the mountain, or like he is described in the four gospels, reflects the old testament. Both parts of the bible speak of two very different ideas of an idol, the one a punishing, egocentirc, revenging vulcan-God whose good will miust be bought by obeying him and doing sacrifices, the other a metaphor for a raise of inner mental evolution, or a higher state of mind, if you want. That's why I do not get christian fundamentalists and the message of Jesus together. I would even say: if you want to be a christian in the understanding of following Jesus - you even must reject the old testament. Christian traditon came up with something that leads beyond that old testament. But Islam did not come up with something that leads beyond it's version of an old testment, the Qu'ran. It was so rigid from the beginning on, when Muhammad was trying to justify his demands by religious means to easily prohibit any opposition to them, that Islam was not able to form a higher developed view that could take over from this Muhammadian centre of views. It started to release rules prohibiting to do so very eraly, and this prohibitions still work today. There were attempts by clerics in the early centuries to implement alternative interpretations and schools and another form of theology than the circular-thinking orthodoxy - they got wiped out more effectively than the church had been able to supress opposition to it'S power monopole in europe. What survived these early attempts in Islam, let's call it the attempt to form an Islamic mystic, had then been battled down and often executed by Sahaladin ("defender of faith", which means he killed all heretic views on Islam, and whose perception in the West also is not in correspondence with the harsh and brutal historical reality of his person), and later during the mongolian attack on Persia and the destruction of Bagdhad, were major parts of the leading representatives of Islam of that time got killed, and almost all clerics represrnting the mystical side that they tried to establish. One could truly say that Islam has no mystic (the Sufis are not that mystic). A religion that has not mystic heart and centre, is a hollow body only. It'S rite, no experience. It is cult, no culture. It is satisfied to simply believe, it does not seek knowledge and insight. and all this primitivity it declares to be a virtue, of course. but it remaisn to be the mental horizon of people living in a hostile environment, 1400 years ago.
Skybird
03-31-06, 12:38 PM
Sorry guys, but at some point of time even me with my reputation of being an excessive writer find it tiresome to repeat what I had written again and again in the past. I wanted to point at the wishful thinking concerning ongoing and unlimited immigration, and the crashdown of integration in reality, when linking to that school event. Now I am again engaged in a discussion on Islam, like I had dozens, it seems, before. I have written several essays on Islam and how I see it and why I see it the way I do. This explains my unforgiving rjection and lacking tolerance for it. If you really want to know about me, get some of those essay I lionked to on page one, especially "The dialogue that never was", and "Critical History of Islam - Chapter 2: Qu'ran and Hadith."
I for myself leave this thread now. If you want to challenge me - we have a number of nice chess matches going on, a wonderful way to have a duel with someone. ;)
Skybird chillout have some fun for a change :up:
Thanks for answering my question Sky. :shifty:
Skybird
03-31-06, 02:25 PM
Thanks for answering my question Sky. :shifty:
You already have answered it yourself.: "Reason I am asking is in Switzerland there were large numbers of Kosovar refugees (Muslims) during and after the wars and upheavals of the 1990s..and there was a lot of tension as a result."
Thanks for answering my question Sky. :shifty:
You already have answered it yourself.: "Reason I am asking is in Switzerland there were large numbers of Kosovar refugees (Muslims) during and after the wars and upheavals of the 1990s..and there was a lot of tension as a result."
And frankly speaking, "Christian" nations like Bulgarians, Romanians and Serbs are not well regarded either...even if it is not as poorly as the "Muslims". I also doubt as far as Bosnians and Albanians are concerned anyone could distinguish them from their Christian neighbours. Also, students and officials from some ex-Sovet Muslims Republics like Kazakstan and Kyrgyzstan are very well regarded...many here don't even realise they are Muslims.
Another point, on another forum, a Dutch fellow said he didn't think Greece belongs in the EU. Never was able to understand why he thought that either...other than some stupid insults.
TteFAboB
04-01-06, 01:42 PM
In Islam, each Muslim counts. The nice, the bad, it doesn't matter what kind of fellow a Muslim is, as long as he is a Muslim first and foremost. When the time comes and the Imman calls, all that matters is if he will attend or not.
When the Catholic Pope remembers Catholics shouldn't wear condoms, nobody follows.
When an Imman demands Muslims to protest against cartoons, all hell breaks loose, things burn, people die, and in Europe they demand their own judiciary system for their neighborhood.
Islam is currently asleep because it cannot survive one minute overt, but the alarm clock is set, and the time is ticking. When it awakens, it will catch Europe with their pants down, for Europe will be the one sleeping this time, and if it is too late by then, Europe will be put to sleep eternally, if you know what I mean.
In Islam, each Muslim counts. The nice, the bad, it doesn't matter what kind of fellow a Muslim is, as long as he is a Muslim first and foremost. When the time comes and the Imman calls, all that matters is if he will attend or not.
Who is this "islam"? Many "muslims" I know won't answer the imam's call...so won't be considered muslims, by Europe and this "Islam"? Don't forget, the imam is not the same in Islam as the clergy in Catholicism, for both good and bad.
TteFAboB
04-02-06, 11:35 AM
This "Islam" is the dorment Lion, or Camel.
The moderate happy Islam is part of this Islam.
The angry hatefull Islam is part of this Islam.
The angry protesters who answered the call in Syria and flamed embassies are part of this Islam.
The peacefull protesters who answered the call and marched with signs against free speech, not against molotovs or burning embassies, are part of this Islam.
What they consider themselves or are considered by others is their problem. The point is, a Muslim in Europe who has nothing but Islam, whose children go to a public sectarian Muslim school, lives surrounded by Muslims in a poor segregated immigrant neighborhood and may not even have any work to do (in any sense of that word) living off aid programs surviving day by day. Will he answer the call? What's important for him? What does he have to loose? His life?
There's 3 rivers flowing: 1. Fascist; Extremist; Terrorist Muslims, 2. Peacefull Muslims who still put Islam above values like freedom - these two are parallel rivers that converge on the awakening of Islam. 3. Modern Muslims, this river starts at the same source but quicky changes direction heading away from the other two.
Immans have greater influence over the first two, if any on the third, the conditions of many Muslims [we don't know] in Europe favours the sprouting of the first two rivers, the question is, how large a mass of maneuver are they?
Skybird
04-02-06, 12:31 PM
I fail to see any other Islam throughout history than the fighting Islam. This is the only islam I am able to find in the qu'ran and Hadith, the history, and the biography and the living example of Muhammad (whose life was about war, violant enforcement of his will, predatory raids, surpressing opposition by murder and imprisonment, massmurder, slavery, rape, militiary conquest, braking resitance of foreign people's cultures and forcing them to submit. How this kind of guy could be regarded as a spiritual leader and a man of peace remains mystery to me). Islam only - always - came to a standstill were superior military power or lacking economcial ressources brought it to a halt. That is no peace, but a ceasefire. It presses on when it has regained sufficent strength. For it is demanded to press on, a Msulim not doing so is violating Islam, and thus deserves punishement - you think fundamentalists like bin Laden are queer? I tell you they are more in correspondence with the real, the fighting Islam than most of those trying to lull the West by talking about coexistence. Islam'S mission is to spread Islam, until it is in rule everyhwhere. No matter if militarily or like today: demographically. that is part of it's mission. The ammount of aggressiveness and expansive drive of this ideology itself is almost ridiculous. Nevertheless it is a realistic threat.
There is no moderate or "real" Islam separate from the fundamentalist Islam, that discrimination is a Western fantasy only. Muhammad himself has preached that the infidels must be overcome and forced to surrender to Islam, or being killed. The people of the book (that is no compliment, guys, it is a distgusted disqualification, if you just look deep enough into it!) at least must be ruled and dominated and must be enforced to feel humiliated and inferior as a penalty for rejecting Allah - which is the real meaning of the adh-al-dhimmi tradition. Noone would think of the Jews in the paradise ghetto in Warsaw to have been "privileged", and that the SS only brought them there to better protect them. They too were dhimmis of the Nazis, kind of.
There is no moderate or tolerant Islam, there is only the fighting Islam. Peace not before Islam has won it all and wiped out everything that is not Islam. See that aggressive way: yes, Islam means peace. Peace under the ruling of the sword of the prohet. This is it'S message since the 6th century, and nowhere, in no part of it's scriptures that has changed. which is only logical becasue the quran as the devine relevation is regarded as the "end of history". If Allah had revealed himself, there cannot come anything behind him. there is no more insight to be found after and beyond the Quran. A Muslim wanting to be Muslim but not taking the quran word by word is a heretic. Many Western Muslims are not aware of that. that'S why some of them still try to stick to Islam - although they sometimes already have left and abandoned it by the superior thinking and higher developed code of values and ethics their minds have found access to. It is too primitive for them anymore, so they want to distort it and making it sound harmless, that way avoiding to officially get out of Islam. they call themselves Muslims by habit only, but they are no more by true understanding of the term.
then there are Muslims behaving like these kind of people some of you guys label as "moderate muslims", they are not moderate muslims, they are followers of a cult only that is not Islam at all. they pick something from it, but not the whole, unaware that picking some parts of it is not possible in Islam. You cannot choose what you like, and reject the rest. They are not moderate Muslims, but unknowing muslims (which nevertheless is good for us and good for them). A moderate muslim, according to Quran, Hadith, Muhammad, is a contradiction like a democratic fashist or a humanistic Stalinist or an anti-racist KKK-member. It is impossible to define a moderate Muslim, if Islam is understood on the basis of Quran, Hadith and Muhammad - and is not arbitrarily defined to one's own opportunistic likings, ignoring historical information that is known; and ignoring the declared self-understanding of Islam as expressed in - again: Quran, Hadith, Muhammad. These are the basis to define Islam, the only basis, not one Western ambition to balance polarized arguments and make them compatible with our tradition to find compromises. And Islamic history in in correspondence with this fundamentalistic understanding of Islam. That should make people think, but for some reason it doesn't.
Like it or not, guys, but that is simply how it is. Some things you simply cannot talk nicier than they are. You wouldn't suggest the Nazis deserve a peace nobel price, because in the word Nationalsozialismus there is the word "sozial" included. You wouldn'T suggest Stalinism is a value worth to be followed because it has won the war. You shouldn't make comparable mistakes with regard to Islam. Most Muslims, the overwhelming majority, that try to tell you how harmless Islam is - simply do not know enough about the ideology they happen to follow.
Again I want to remind you that since 1400 years members of foreign cultures and religions, until today!, are systemtically decimated in all territories of Muslim sphere of influence, and all Muslim nations - there never has been a period of standstill in the trend. Soemtimes the extinguishing of foreign culture in their territories went faster, sometime s more slowly, but never it had stopped, until today. christians and Jews are masisvely hindered in ALL Muslims countries to practice their faiths, not to mention to missionize, (like Muslims reserve the right to do in our homes - they prohibit us what they excessively do themselves). This is ethnic cleansing as much as it can be. A tolerant, peaceful coexistence, or integration into foreign systems, looks different, I would think.
Give it a small finger, and it rips off your arm, and then goes for the rest of your body, to silence your painful cries so that there is peace again. That is the simple reason why I am so unforgiving in my stand against Islam. Some things you better do not try to arrange yourself with. Sometimes you simply need to make an uncompromised stand against something, ruling out foul compromises. But Europe does not have the will to defend itself with such fighting spirit anymore. Like Eastern Rome tried to buy peace from Attila - only making him storng that way, while getting weak itself. The situation compares.
Kapitan
04-02-06, 05:22 PM
Dont these politicians learn ?
Kapitan
04-02-06, 05:26 PM
A muslim on the news read a passage from the Qu'ran it said.
Any man who depicts me Kill him
The Avon Lady
04-02-06, 11:57 PM
A muslim on the news read a passage from the Qu'ran it said.
Any man who depicts me Kill him
Wow! You must be special! :hmm:
Kapitan
04-03-06, 01:26 AM
Not me i was watching the london protest's on the news, and that is what a guy said on a mega phone word for word.
It even says other things like that in the qu'ran.
dertien
01-22-07, 03:11 PM
Maybe you can call me Skybird Junior after this but...
I must second every single thing that Skybird is talking about. The situation here in Belgium is the same if not worse. Islam will be our downfall if we do not react. I don't want to swap it for any other religion, as I am not a religious person myself, but Islam is fundamentalistic by nature and if I have something to say about it, I repeat what I have read on Steed's banner, I WILL NOT SUBMIT.
The problem is only that a lot of these people were born here and have the Belgian nationality. Even if they do not wish to learn the language, or submit to Western culture who has fed them and tolerates their behaviour on the penalty of being called racist, we can not kick them out.
Let me tell you this, the Turkish, the Jewish and the Chinese community here in Antwerp are not troublemakers. We coexist (not always peacefully) but at least the attitude problem I see with young Marrocans is not there.
In the seventies, the Belgian government, (that we voted for) invited 'Guest Workers' mainly form Marrocco to our country, because the employment opportunities were that good that Belgians at that time did not want/have to do so called filthy or lesser jobs, like garbage removal and coalmining to phrase a few examples.
Like Skybird sais, they talk their arab language or speak a sort of paegan Flemish/French especially because they do not WISH to be integrated. I am talking people who were born here, and went to Belgian schools. They esteem themselves to be 'special' and therefore, they develop a kind of 'gangsta' attitude, and the language that fits it.
We are talking about kids from the age of 14 till 26 years old, who kinda 'rule' the streets, and not only the neighbourhood they live in, who bully people on busses and trams.
Let there be no mistake :NOBODY forced them to live in those neighbourhoods or ghettos, but they did and still willingly go there to form their packs.
When they resort to violence, they will never do so alone. Alone they seem just as integrated as anybody else (the wolf's fur is still visible under the sheeps clothing) but once they are numerically superior, they (try) to force their will upon people.
And the politicians you say ??? hahaha, what a joke !
They live in neighbourhoods where Islam is a kind of fantasy coming from the 'Sherazade and the 1000 and 1 nights tale'. They debate about what a meal tastes, without even taking a spoonful.
Democracy ? I don't think so, pseudo-democracy at best, and then some.
The problem is this: As long as people vote for the tolerant ostrich politician, nothing will change. While the elections are underway we listen to politicians and their superb programmes only to be dissapointed when the real programme is there after they are sure to wine and dine on the taxpayers money, up until the new elections of course!
Tolerance in Belgium has been a misnomer for 'we do what we please or we call you a racist' kind of policy.
And last but not least: I don't think we Europeans should take lessons in tolerance from countries where the cost of an apprenticeship is 7 times the price for foreigners who really wish to emigrate ! That is for example Australia, I country I have visited as a tourist and wish to emigrate to. I have skills and I have a western culture, but It doesn't make it easier to stay 'Downunder'.
Our scolarship fees, be it for Belgians, Australians, Morrocans, Jews, and any other citizen of any nation in the world is equal. And what's more: if you decide to be taught an occupation that is critical to our country you will get the scolarship for free. Do you wish to learn a profession, and leave Belgium afterwards, there's nobody stopping you!
But the Muslim culture, Balkan or not, certainly is no part of Europe.
You are wrong. Pre-1492 Muslim-to-the-bone Spain was in full bloom. Treaties of medicine, chemistry, philosophy, astronomy, works of literature and arts were of highest standards and stand up to today's scrutiny. Plenty of that findings contributed massively to the progress of late maedieval Europe. Discarding en masse achievements of Muslim culture and its achievements is fundamentally wrong. We must observe the "slight" difference between Muslim culture in general and people, who often, willingly or not turn it into its nightmarish caricature.
Pole
Right, and Christians en jews live there as dimmish. Not to talk about atheists. :shifty:
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