Convoys - What if...

[thyro]

SH3 merchant convoys seem too easy and too brainless...

So, what would have happened in a real convoy when ships protecting it were neutralized?

Thanks

[NoLine]

In real world, what would happen when a merchant convoy is attacked and the ships protecting it are destroyed

in the real world they didnt attack and destroy the escorts
still voted for the first option

cheers
Noline

[MarshalLaw]

Safety in numbers. If I was a skipper of a merchant, I would want others around. They may not be able to stop if I got hit , but at least radio in my position, so survivors can be rescued.
If your out there by yourself and there is no time to send a distress call, your screwed.

[Cdre Gibs]

If it was a surface raider they would scatter (devide the raiders guns).
If it was a Submarine then they would zig zag like crazy at best speed and try to out run the sub. If the sub surfaced then the Armed merchants would try to shoot it and/or ram it.

[BettingUrlife]

No one has any historical information on this?

[jasonb885]

Dude, I imagine it just didn't happen if we're talking about U-Boats.

If you're curious about worst case, read up on convoy PQ 17. That was the worst case.

http://historynet.com/wwii/bldeathconvoypg17/index1.html

Let's just say you usually don't order a dispersion.

[Tonnage_Ace]

Dude, I imagine it just didn't happen if we're talking about U-Boats.

If you're curious about worst case, read up on convoy PQ 17. That was the worst case.

http://historynet.com/wwii/bldeathconvoypg17/index1.html

Let's just say you usually don't order a dispersion.
I was just wondering about that particular convoy. Anyone know if it's been modelled in GW? Let's say I lie in wait around Reykjavik on June 27, 1942...will I see this convoy depart?

[thyro]

Dude, I imagine it just didn't happen if we're talking about U-Boats.

If you're curious about worst case, read up on convoy PQ 17. That was the worst case.

http://historynet.com/wwii/bldeathconvoypg17/index1.html

Let's just say you usually don't order a dispersion.

Excellent link :up:

[thyro]

Now returning to SH3 "reality" (if I'm allowed to say that)

For example:

A convoy of 23 ships (total) where 3 were one DD and two Flowers.

1x DD gave up and ran away (after 2 hours chaising my boat)
2x Coverttes were pin-down by combination of 1 torp + DG
6x Large merchants were pin-down by combination of 1/2 torps+DG
1x Small merchant with eng. problems by DG

Which leaves...

14x remaining ships (Medium/small merchanges) to eventually pin-down (if I can save the remaining torps and ammo)

Unbelivebly all ships remain steady at 6 knots in formation in the same route angle.

So, faced to lack of protection... wouldn't be better for them (SH3 AI) to scater the formation and make each/group ships run on every direction?

I'm sure that would make my uboat's life more difficult.

Is there any way to script/mod and change their "steady/easy" behaviour?

(otherwise it will be another PQ-17 with all credits for a single uboat) :rotfl:

[Salvadoreno]

Wow that PQ-17 convoy was a great read. Those poor bastards!! I just bought a book called "Night of the U-boats" which is about the massacer of convoy SC-7. Havent got to read it yet but its going to be an epic read. 20 ships sunk, the largest number of merchants lost in a convoy. Its a insane battle. Ships were going up in flames every hour or something like that. U can get a small overview at www.uboat.net. I got a membership :)

[thyro]

The PQ-17 SH3 version ;)

The path of destruction
http://www.ribeiros.co.uk/sh3_convoy1_0.jpg
http://www.ribeiros.co.uk/sh3_convoy1_1.jpg
http://www.ribeiros.co.uk/sh3_convoy1_2.jpg
http://www.ribeiros.co.uk/sh3_convoy1_3.jpg

The show in town (sea)
http://www.ribeiros.co.uk/sh3_convoy1_4.jpg

They deserve the medals!!!
http://www.ribeiros.co.uk/sh3_convoy1_5.jpg

Oops a DD apeared from no where!
http://www.ribeiros.co.uk/sh3_convoy1_6.jpg

Catch me if you can! ;) Avoiding DD's firepower
http://www.ribeiros.co.uk/sh3_convoy1_7.jpg

And the hunt still continues :ping:

[Salvadoreno]

lol that seems like a pretty inrealistic battle. As said in das boot, "the old man crazy or what? Charges in like we are some damn speed boat.. They really rip our asses open now". haha. Surfacing and duking it out like that seems nutz. Looks like u hit 3 c2s and they are listing.. Whats going on??

mods??

[thyro]

Don't get me wrong... but it was a realistic surface battle :rotfl: (SH3 version of PQ-17 convoy saga)

That English DD (in the picture) was "on my side" ;) ... well not quite!
But in fact it did some of the dirty work for me... enough to save my ammo for the next merchant.

In fact after the last picture, my uboat cross right in front the other merchant (also in the picture) and I got rammed (under 45% hull)... crash dive and repair the extensive damage in all compartments and floods.

After a long hour at 70m depth, I left the DD droping charges in wrong place, I went again to periscope depth... by then the DD was well behind...

Surfaced the sub for a final charge at flank speed... finishing that Medium merchant that I was going around (in the last pictures).

Once with no torps left either DG ammo I broke the convoy pursuit and carry on to the mission patrol grid.

After 8 hours these are the results:

A convoy of 23 ships (total)

1x DD gave up and ran away (after 2 hours chaising my boat) - I reckon that this 2nd DD that appeared in the pictures is that one that ran away when I engaged this convoy for 1st time
2x Coverttes were pin-down by combination of 1 torp + DG
6x Large merchants were pin-down by combination of 1/2 torps+DG
1x Small merchant with eng. problems by DG (left it alone... I didn't notice its neutral flag :oops:)
2x Medium merchants by 1 last torp + DG
1x Small merchant floating damaged refused to go down (lucky coz my DG ran out of ammo :( )

The mod used was GW

Anyway the convoy reaction to a threat was null. So, allowed to do all that!
If the AI was better and reacted to the threat, then I probably wouldn't had this list of kills. :)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

@ Thyro... once again... the AI itself cannot be modded. It is hard-coded.

the GW team (specifically Marhkimov and myself) have spent a great deal of time on the DD agression issues and the DD pinpoint laser guided deptch charge system presented in stock.

Its in the readme regarding the sources of the information. Redwine, CB, Casposfungin, Jungman, and our very own Gouldjg and Rubini all made useful discoveries presented in 22 or so page thread dealing with that matter.

To make a long story short, this is probably the most tested element of GW. Without giving a 20 page dissertation that may come in the future... I think we hit the nail on the head.

In GW early in the war the DD's are dummies. As the war goes on, crew skill generally increases as do the number of escorts and the availability of quality equipment. Your chances of career survivablilty in DiD mode drop significantly.

Once we refine the mechanical elements in GW that need tuning, I can discuss these things in more detail.

I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm saying, "Trust me!" Its only that I have to prioritize my time still... Problem solving first... theory and discussion later.

I'm sorry if you feel this isn't what you expected to hear.

[thyro]

@ Kpt. Lehmann

:oops: Please don't get me wrong... coz I'm not complaining either is my intention :) Ok! :up:


I just wish that convoys that lost their escords would react to threats :) just that! (or some sort of enhancement to prevent this situations)

I'm currently re-using GW (reinstalled it and seem to have solved my earlier problems with "invincible ships"- issues that I guess that you are aware).

Note:
The reference to GW doesn't mean that GW has a problem! (please lets be clear about this!).
Because all other mods (like SH3 original) suffer the same lack of reaction, exactly the same way.
The reference to GW is just a simple reference to what I'm running to stablish a standard and be possible to compare/replicate.


The convoy lack of reaction is based on the assumption that escorts aren't destroyed (like in real WWII world happened). But if someone goes for escorts 1st then the remaing ships are easy targets... thats why I'm raising the point.

I personally would like to believe that we are all in the same boat ... raising standards for better gameplay (at least I want to be beliave, unless I'm completly wrong and here is not the place to address them)

Now, if "biff up" the convoy AI isn't possible to mod due to be hardcoded is a bit disapoitening to hear. :damn: :damn: :damn:

:)