American Mercenaries- Now Available!

[Bort]

Looks like Blackwater USA is now ready to do anything-for anyone!
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=102251&ran=202519&tref=po
They claim that they will get US approval for whatever they do, but I am seriously beginning to wonder if Blackwater is now violating US and International law, in addition to the moral roadblocks they've already passed... :nope:

[The Avon Lady]

I need a spring cleaning team. :hmm:

[Skybird]

And back to the 15th, 16th and 17th century... Welcome back, you Landsknechte and Condottieri, welcome you warlords and you children soldiers. Say good-bye, state monopoles for military and armies, say good-bye to the separation of politics and military enterprise's profit interests.

"Near Castiglione Fiorentino, two Franziskan monks met the English leader of mercenaries John Hawkwood, who was called Giovanni Acuto by the Italians. They greeted the Condottieri, who was very popular and respected in the Florentine area, according to their habits with a friendly "God give you peace, Monsignore!" They were even more shocked, when Hawkwood answered with a dry and laconic "And God take all your alms away from you!" Why he was wishing them this, they asked, when they themselves wished him something good and kind. The answer of the condottiere: "How could you believe you tell me something good when you come to me and wish me that God shall let me die of starvation? Don't you know that I live by the war, and that peace would ruin me? And olike I live of war and fighting, you live of alms, so that my answer I gave to you is adeqaute for what you wished for me."

A little story from the early 15th century, quoted in Herfried Münkler: "Die neuen Kriege"

[Skybird]

BTW. mercenaries, mostly from the UK, France and the US, are active on all continents since long. Between 12 and 35 thousand american mercenaries are operating in Iraq. A hard to count number of several thousands are active in Afghanistan, Columbia, Africa and Southeast Asia, since many, many years. Seen that way, this is old news. and the trend will grow massively in coming years.

[Happy Times]

BTW. mercenaries, mostly from the UK, France and the US, are active on all continents since long. Between 12 and 35 thousand american mercenaries are operating in Iraq. A hard to count number of several thousands are active in Afghanistan, Columbia, Africa and Southeast Asia, since many, many years. Seen that way, this is old news. and the trend will grow massively in coming years. Ive noticed this trend too. They are sort of modern day Ronins. Wonder how much they pay and who do they take? :hmm:

[Konovalov]

BTW. mercenaries, mostly from the UK, France and the US, are active on all continents since long. Between 12 and 35 thousand american mercenaries are operating in Iraq.

Wow! That is a massive number if correct. Compare that with the number of US conventional forces in Iraq and that is pretty high. Can you please advise your source of information on this number? I have to say I find that number between 12 to 35k of American mercs a little iffy and on the high side. Can you prvide some links/evidence?

[Skybird]

Notice the variation from 12 to 35 thousand in Iraq. These numbers I have picked up in the last let'S say two years in medias, TV and print. The numbers quoted by the various authors/reporters are showing these huge variations. Most often I got numbers around 20 thousand, from more than half a dozen mercenary companies (even from France :) ), althougn there are small and huge companies. Blacksun is one of the major players. DynaCorps is another, with a troop level approaching or even surpassing 30 thousand. According to an article by Süddeutsche Zeitung, companies in this field make a global turnover of minimum 100 thousand million (100 Milliarden) dollars per year, tendency: growing. they are operating in over 100 countries.

Mercs in Iraq are hired by oil companies or the Iraqi government (like in Afghanistan) for guard duty at oil fields and pipelines, and bodyguarding. Occasional they take part in ground offensives, too, but that is yet no rule. Sometimes they have very good links to the US military. Mercs are also training local military units, for example US company Vinelly is operating in Saudi Arabia (at least two years ago) with 1500 men. they are training certain elite units of the Saudis, and their complete national guard, and support them in operations. Many of Vinelli'S fighters are ex-special forces.

These comanies are not intersted in politics, but in business. american companies as well as Spearhead, an Israeli company, trained private armies of the Medellin Kartel and other Southamerican drug baron'S armies during the 90s.



I once heared a saying from central Africa. Two trained specialists from Blacksun are equaling two batallions of local infantry. It obviously is about knowledge and experience.

Money, someone asked. They can earn up to four digit-saleries - per day. If it is a specialist of very rare skill or otherwise great importance, and the area is considered to be high threat zone, it even can go beyond 10 thousand. again, per day.

My ex-boss once had an friend with us for some days, who was leading us through the Turkish-Iranian border area, a smart mind and obviously an expert on what he was doing. He was from the UK and obviously ex-soldier, later in "free business", as he called it. I once asked him why he did that job, and he said if I would get offered 40 thousand pounds a months i maybe would give it a guess, too.

The danger in this: a regular soldier is interested in war getting over soon, so that he can get home. A mercenary wants war to last as long as possible, for that is where he gets his income from. The Us government is the biggest customer of these companies, and combines this with "outsourcing" of military capabilities. these companies are protected by american laws and cannot be held responsible for the political side-effects their interference will trigger ("Sorry, we are a private company, we do not owe you any explanations."). since they are not the government or the army, (nevertheless use facilities and equipement of the army, air force and navy), the govenment cannot be hold responsible for their deeds as well. They are a wonderful tool for the US to wage wars for which the US cannot be held responsible for. That the profit intersts of these companies will (and already do) feedback on the government's international policies must not be explained any further, I think.

another danger: the public takes care of killed white soldiers. It take significantly lesser care of killed black soldiers. It takes not care of killed mercenaries. Sending mercs instead of the regular army rasies the willingness of the public to accept war. Mercs make war more acceptable.

As I said before, we all had this in Europe, in the 14th-17th century, and it gave us war after war after war. In Africa we have plenty of low intensity wars that are lasting for years and decades, becasue again: the parties involved make their living by a state of war. Peace would cost them there living basis and priviliges. that is why Africa is doomed. That is why we had wars in Europe that lasted for decades.

Mecenary compoanies should shut down, by force, if needed. They should not be allowed to be recognized as usual business companies and private enterprise. The monople of the state to run a military is one of the decisive achievenemnts in european history, and the age of constant wars for centuries did not end until this condition had been fulfilled. It is essential to the life and existence of a democratic, free order. Private armies forbidden, that simple.

I can live with the idea of professional soldiers making a military career in their nation's army, as long as they do not make the policy, or influence it. More or less values play a rople for them, the want to defend something that is of value to them, in the widest sense: their homes, people, country.
But a man who is willing to wage war and to kill for no matter what faction if only this faction pays him enough money I feel nothing than disgust and disrespect for. I consider him to be deeply sick in his mind.

[Skybird]

Sources: use Google, guys, like I just did in German. I had plenty of indepth analysis, transcripts from broadcasts, newspaper essays, and book excerpts within seconds. The matter is neither hidden, nor unknown. i can also refer to van Creveld, Münkler, Todd and their various books.

[The Avon Lady]

This report (http://www.basicint.org/pubs/Research/2004PMC.htm) might be of general interest on the subject.

[Konovalov]

This report (http://www.basicint.org/pubs/Research/2004PMC.htm) might be of general interest on the subject.

Thanks. Interestesting. From the report:

Scope of PMCs in Iraq
Nobody knows for certain how many PMCs are operating in Iraq. In response to a request from Congress, a CPA-compiled report lists 60 PMCs with an aggregate total of 20,000 personnel (including U.S. citizens, third-country nationals and Iraqis). But the CPA list is incomplete. Missing, for example, are companies implicated in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. Most of the armed personnel are the 14,000 Iraqi guards who work the oil field contract for Erinys. Global Risk Strategies, said to be the largest PMC in Iraq, employs 1,000-1,200; Blackwater has about 600; SOC-SMG 300; Triple Canopy about 350; Control Risks Group 750; Olive 265; DynCorp 175.

The total number of non-Iraqi PMC personnel is certainly less then 20,000. When the Erinys personnel are subtracted from the total, the number is significantly less;perhaps as few as 6,000 security contractors. And despite claims to the contrary, PMCs do not constitute the second or third largest Army in Iraq, they are not coordinated into one cohesive whole, nor do they engage in offensive operations.

PMCs provide three categories of services in Iraq: personal security details for senior civilian officials, non-military site security (buildings and infrastructure), and non-military convoy security. Rather than working directly for the U.S. government or the CPA, most PMCs are subcontracted to provide protection for prime contractor employees, or are hired by other entities such as Iraqi companies or private foreign companies seeking business opportunities in Iraq.

PMC operations tread the difficult line in providing protection in a manner that meets the intricate demands of corporate, military and government ethics, and come at significant cost. To date, at least 58 non-Iraqi PMC personnel (excluding those who worked as truck drivers and the like) have died. If one includes Iraqi PMC personnel the toll is much larger. The PMC Erinys alone has had about 21 killed and 26 wounded thus far.


This seems to suggest that there are around 6,000 or so mercs of US citizenship operating in Iraq.

[Skybird]

It's one source of information - amongst others. could be 6000. could be 26 thousand. We don't know. that'S why I said 12-35 thousand. Or better: that is why ifnormation on precsie troop löevels is varying between these two values.

Aalso the report dates back to Sept. 2004. which means it depends on info that dates back to even earlier months.

The orientation and interest of the authoprs also may influence if they want to see it more for the good or more for the worse. If they even think in these terms.

Anyhow, the general arguments criticising the mere existence of mercenary companies and their dangers is not affected by the precise troop level in Iraq anyway.

[Konovalov]

Aalso the report dates back to Sept. 2004. which means it depends on info that dates back to even earlier months.
http://www.basicint.org/pubs/2006PMC.htm

Cool. The above report is from Feb, 2006 which I would say is up to date. In this within section 4 he says regarding Westerners working as PMC's:
Personally, I agree with the estimate of five to six thousand armed Westerners in Iraq.[15]
and from note 15
[15] Figure cited by Doug Brooks, head of the International Peace Operations Association, in interview with author, February 8, 2006.
That seems up to date to me.
Anyhow, the general arguments criticising the mere existence of mercenary companies and their dangers is not affected by the precise troop level in Iraq anyway.
Was I questioning that? I don't think so. I merely questioned and seeked more information on the figure you put for US citizens working in Iraq as PMC's.

[TLAM Strike]

The Pope is guarded by Mercs! :yep:

[TLAM Strike]

BTW. mercenaries, mostly from the UK, France and the US, are active on all continents since long. Between 12 and 35 thousand american mercenaries are operating in Iraq. A hard to count number of several thousands are active in Afghanistan, Columbia, Africa and Southeast Asia, since many, many years. Seen that way, this is old news. and the trend will grow massively in coming years. Ive noticed this trend too. They are sort of modern day Ronins. Wonder how much they pay and who do they take? :hmm: Ask him...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Gribble.jpg

[August]

It's one source of information - amongst others. could be 6000. could be 26 thousand. We don't know. that'S why I said 12-35 thousand. Or better: that is why ifnormation on precsie troop löevels is varying between these two values.

Perhaps it depends on how one counts them. The high number could easily include support staff, drivers, mechanics, office workers, etc, anyone that works for the company whereas the lower number is just the shooters.

[Bort]

A Frontline webpage and streaming report about PMC's is availible here:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/
Gotta love Frontline :up:

[Skybird]

It's one source of information - amongst others. could be 6000. could be 26 thousand. We don't know. that'S why I said 12-35 thousand. Or better: that is why ifnormation on precsie troop löevels is varying between these two values.

Perhaps it depends on how one counts them. The high number could easily include support staff, drivers, mechanics, office workers, etc, anyone that works for the company whereas the lower number is just the shooters.
Probably something like that.

[kiwi_2005]

Mercenaries, Spys, what next...
Our country actually caught two isreali spys here last year, why were they spying on little old new zealand only our govenment will know, theres been gossip that they came to spy on our Maori movements as some Maoris organisations are friends with anti-western countries. We proscuted them in our courts practically a slap on the hand and sent them back on the next plane to Israel. For Spys they weren't good at it. They were tracked right from the begining as soon as they got of the plane.

[August]

Mercenaries, Spys, what next...
Our country actually caught two isreali spys here last year, why were they spying on little old new zealand only our govenment will know, theres been gossip that they came to spy on our Maori movements as some Maoris organisations are friends with anti-western countries. We proscuted them in our courts practically a slap on the hand and sent them back on the next plane to Israel. For Spys they weren't good at it. They were tracked right from the begining as soon as they got of the plane.

One word: Decoys

[kiwi_2005]

One word: Decoys

:yep: Thats a possiblity, then they are good actors, There lawyer tried to get name suppress and they were serious about not having there faces on television, they covered there faces in court, we got an apology from the isreali leader. They really got suspected cos of there passports turned out to be false they claimed to be US citizins, National intelligence said otherwise. So they were tracked for 4 months in NZ and found to be isrealis spys.

But spying on NZ a small island on the bottom of the world? Were a danger to no-one. lol

[TLAM Strike]

I bet they were in cahoots with the Australians and were searching for suitable beaches for the coming invasion… :shifty: :lol:

[Bort]

They are a really easy target, a tiny Navy and no tactical aircraft. (They sold off all of their A-4's) :nope:

[The Avon Lady]

Maybe the Israeli spies were playing a round of Can You Top This? (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=15726&only). :hmm:

Let me try! :|\

[kiwi_2005]

Maybe the Israeli spies were playing a round of

Yes, i remeber that, we accept anyone that needs help.... Not just westerners. Apparently alot of his familiy are permenant kiwis now and they're nice ppl.

Can isreal top that? :|\ No need to build a wall :hmm:

[kiwi_2005]

They are a really easy target, a tiny Navy and no tactical aircraft. (They sold off all of their A-4's)

:yep: :nope: not a good move.

[The Avon Lady]

Can isreal top that?
That's easy (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ejim.html). :smug: And that does not take into account the over 1 million Russian immigrants Israel has absorbed over the last 40 years.
No need to build a wall :hmm:
Who's killing you?

When was the last time this happened (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=101204) to New Zealanders? :oops:

[kiwi_2005]

And that does not take into account the over 1 million Russian immigrants Israel has absorbed over the last 40 years.

Yet you come across as anti russain. Are you ppl anti Maori as well?

Isreal sells cigarettes called "Maori Mix"
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE0512/S00043.htm

The company use a Maori name to sell smokes, has he/she ever heard about bad karma, or Tabu. A tabu curse can last for ever on a ppl. What they think with our maori warriors with facial tatoos is gonna make you ppl rush out and buy smokes?

That was a bad move. :nope:

Yes you ppl build a wall for protection, but really you have become a prisoner in your own G-d given country.

Anyways Avon im not trying to get into a flame war, The mentioning of the isreali Spys was just that, if they were british or russian or any other spys i would of asked the same questions. Were a country that is anti - nuclear, we accept anyone into our country as ciziteins we dont go to war instead we send peace troops eg to help build Iraq, we try to show the world that the only way is peace. Yet for some reason countries become suspicous of us - and send in there spys. Yet we are on to it. We have one of the best intelligence in the world. Still i can see myself getting sent to the brig if i keep on it. :yep: :-j

[The Avon Lady]

And that does not take into account the over 1 million Russian immigrants Israel has absorbed over the last 40 years.
Yet you come across as anti russain.
Please quote me to prove your point. I will admit in advance that I'm not a big Stalin fan. :nope:
Are you ppl anti Maori as well?
Why? Should we be? :88)
Isreal sells cigarettes called "Maori Mix"
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE0512/S00043.htm
No one in my household smokes. None of our friends do. Nevertheless, I'm not ignorant of local brands but I've never heard of this one.

And please blame Philip Morris, a gigantic US tobacco company.
The company use a Maori name to sell smokes, has he/she ever heard about bad karma, or Tabu. A tabu curse can last for ever on a ppl. What they think with our maori warriors with facial tatoos is gonna make you ppl rush out and buy smokes?

That was a bad move. :nope:

Sounds bad to me, too.
Yes you ppl build a wall for protection, but really you have become a prisoner in your own G-d given country.

I agree.
Anyways Avon im not trying to get into a flame war, The mentioning of the isreali Spys was just that, if they were british or russian or any other spys i would of asked the same questions. Were a country that is anti - nuclear, we accept anyone into our country as ciziteins we dont go to war instead we send peace troops eg to help build Iraq, we try to show the world that the only way is peace.
You live the life of luxury, young man. I am envious.
Yet for some reason countries become suspicous of us - and send in there spys. Yet we are on to it. We have one of the best intelligence in the world. Still i can see myself getting sent to the brig if i keep on it. :yep: :-j
I would imagine there was some deeper reason for Israel to send spies to NZ. We may never know why. I would guess they weren't sent there to spy on NZ itself.