Is Moscow still hoping for a nuclear showdown or what ?

[Sixpack]

I tried to have an open positive approach towards Russia but fact is: they annoy the hell out of me too frequently. Like Iran, Russia is hard to like for a western guy such as myself.

Why are the Russian government cretins still siding with Iran ? Yet handling Chechznia tyhe way they do ? It doesnt make sense. It's utterly disgusting.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/28/iran.nuclear.reut/index.html

[CCIP]

The main one was a provision that referred to weapons of mass destruction as a threat to international peace and security. Russia believes this could be a prelude to harsher punishment, diplomats said.

Russia doesn't want war in Iran. What else is new? What, you think they'll be getting something good out of it?

I quite fail to see what Russian interest it would be accomplishing. Nor do I see any reason for Russia to act with any degree of commitment outside of its own interests - considering the West refuses to so much as think outside its own interests, forget acting...

As far as the utterly... bad thread title - :roll:

There's one country in the world that's been moving to bombing an increasing amount of countries and trying to approve use of tactical nuclear weapons, and it sure ain't Russia.

But don't worry. Putin isn't going to lift a finger - why would he? The west is perfectly capable of screwing things up on their own - much to his country's advantage. Fortunately, he's got things screwed up in Russia enough to not have this advantage seriously reflected on Russia's capability as a threat.

Otherwise, I'm glad to see Russia has at least kept its mistrust towards the west. It's justified. You may not like it, but again - there's no reason for anyone to act outside their own interests. It's realpolitik.

[Konovalov]

You may not like it, but again - there's no reason for anyone to act outside their own interests. It's realpolitik.

Well said. :yep:

[Sixpack]

I had expected this from the 2 of you; anti-western and pro-opposing parties as you both are :shifty:

Just two blokes living in unappropriate places. I feel sorry for you :roll:

[The Avon Lady]

My little prediction:

Islamic and Pan-Arab cooperation will be to Putin and Russia as was the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression Pact to Stalin and the USSR.

On a smaller scale - maybe.

[Sea Demon]

My little prediction:

Islamic and Pan-Arab cooperation will to Putin and Russia as was the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression Pact to Stalin and the USSR.

On a smaller scale - maybe.

I agree with you Avon Lady. I also wonder if Russia has it coming from the Chinese. They're sure giving them the keys to the kingdom in regards to military technology. :down:

[Sixpack]

@AL Probably or at least possibly.

But Iran is a whore (edit: may not make too much sense, but I always wanted to say this :lol: ), selling to anyone who wants to buy their stuff.

If Islam is so important to them, why suck up to Moscow and not support the Chechzian rebels for autonomy against Moscow ?

Huh...say again ? They are supporting those islamic rebels ?

The ME/former SU territory is getting even more screwed up all the time...

So far behind the West. So confused. Such wannabees. So pityful.

:down: :down: :down:

[The Avon Lady]

My little prediction:

Islamic and Pan-Arab cooperation will to Putin and Russia as was the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression Pact to Stalin and the USSR.

On a smaller scale - maybe.
I agree with you Avon Lady. I also wonder if Russia has it coming from the Chinese. They're sure giving them the keys to the kingdom in regards to military technology. :down:
I don't think that's predictable at this stage.

China's main interest at this time is getting Taiwan under its grip.

I think it would take a Chinese equivalent of NK's Lil' Kim coming into power for China to be interested in taking on Russia militarily.

Russia and China don't bother each other too much. Each might be watching their sixes from the other but they're both busy with other places and issues.

And there's always the possibility that China may one day in the near future might mature enough to become fully democratic through their own internal transformation, if the people can get hold of the higher positions in China's political and military systems.

[kiwi_2005]

Russia are our friends not our enemy. :yep:

[Sixpack]

Russia are our friends not our enemy. :yep:

How frequently do ships deliver newspapers to you guys down under ? :-j

[The Avon Lady]

Russia are our friends not our enemy. :yep:
How frequently do ships deliver newspapers to you guys down under ? :-j
Ships?

Don't they rely on bottles? :hmm:

[Sixpack]

Yea, that's more likely :yep: Aussie beer bottles

( ;) @ Kiwi)

[Konovalov]

I had expected this from the 2 of you; anti-western and pro-opposing parties as you both are :shifty:

Just two blokes living in unappropriate places. I feel sorry for you :roll:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You crack me up. Since when have I been anti-western? And I'm meant to be pro-opposing parties? What do you mean by this? More information please if you will. I cannot recall CCIP exhibiting the types of behaviour that you describe here either. Anyway help me out please here. :-?

[STEED]

From time to time Moscow has to do a bit of prodding the west or poking the east and visa versa.

[Oberon]

Russia hoping for a nuclear showdown? Only if it's feeling suicidal...but that is not to say that its still fronting a lot of military power, and with most of Europe in the Middle East...well, if there ever was a ripe time to reclaim some of the old Warsaw pact countries, now would be it.
Still, I think most of Russias power these days lies in its gas and oil supplies, who needs to send in tanks when cutting the gas supply in the middle of winter could be just as damaging.
The Bear isn't dead....just sleeping :up:

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

march 30th, 2014...

there's not much left now... the food is gone, it's dark, cold, and the power from my batteries are almost exhausted... i'm writing these last few lines in the hope that humankind has survived, and that there will be someone left alive to read it...

the wars in the middle east seemed like a good place to start this, for they signaled the beginning of the end... the west against the islamic forces of terror... it soon played like a modern day crusades, and was the trigger to the civil revolts in the Americas and in Europe...

then the unexpected detonation of a nuclear device in southern Pakistan, well, regardless of whether or not it was a missile launched by India, or a terrorist action, it only took another 20 hours before the retaliation started, and the Indian capitol had been hit by a low yield device...

all the calls for diplomacy and to excercise the same sort of restraint that held back the cold war of the 50s fell on deaf ears... as i remember, a total of 3 more nuclear detonations tooks place in that region...

this may or may not have been the trigger for the pre emptive strike by the Israelies on the nuclear facilities in Iran... which only fed fuel to the already embroiled region...

surprisingly enough, the super powers refused to intervene, exception of lodging formal protests in the UN... the US forces had been decimated by their protracted involvement in the region in the early part of the century, and their over reliance on technology was proving to be a weak link in their armour... the Chinese also kept quiet, but it soon became evident that they had substantial forces massed on both borders, and their navy had deployed to all parts of the Pacific rim region...

the nations of the fragmented Soviet Republic were continuing their realignment as the new Russian block of nations, and were issuing warnings to all nations about respecting the sovereignty of their borders...

in short, it seemed as if the worst was over... until the military takeover of Taiwan started...

i can't remember if it was over a naval dispute, or an aircraft being shot down, but the Chinese responded by sinking tthree Japanese Self Defense force ships, and bombing one of their naval installations...

American protest were immediate, but there was no military response on the part of the US... that's all i can remember... the radio and television went after the first blast, and i was unconscious for a few days after that...

i awoke in a make shift hospital... the smell of death all around, my head bandaged... it appears as if i was hit by flying debris or something...

somebody told me that a full scale war had broken out... New York, Washington, San Diego, Norfolk, and some are in the mid west, i think Colorado, or North Dakota... i can't remember... all these had been hit...

and they said it was worse in the middle east... and that that Tokyo was also pretty much gone... they said that i shouldn't worry though, our submarine and air forces had launched retaliatory nuclear strikes on the suspected aggressors... and that everything would be alright... that everything was under control...

i had no way to confirm these reports... there ws no more internet... besides, the electricity was intermittant at best... god i hoped that they were all wrong... that was 3 weeks ago... the cases of radiation sickness are getting worse... more and more of em all over... i know the symptoms, i've read about it extensively... i fear that the worse has happened... they weren't wrong...

... and the worse is yet to come.

last night the sky to the northwest was lit up by a brilliant flash, and a loud rumbling sound followed about 30 seconds later...

ok... the lights are going out, battery must be dead... it's dark now, even though it's only 1 in the afternoon, i can't see any more to write anything... this is it... may whatever god exists up there have mercy on our souls... forgive us our stupidity...

how did it ever come to this...


--Mike

[Oberon]

Mike...what have I told you about using that time machine of yours....

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

:cool: heeheeheeeheee...

--Mike

[The Avon Lady]

Hey Mike, can I have your watch? :rotfl:

[STEED]

Mike whats this weekend’s lottery numbers by any chance? Pretty handy, having a time machine. :)

[kiwi_2005]

For Mother RUSSIA :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

And no "NOT" Aussie beer, Kiwi beer. Aussie beer is watered down.


:-j :yep:

[scandium]

I'm also of the opinion that Russia's acting in its own best interest as blocking this UN resolution is a win-win situation for them. Recall it was the US who decided the UN was irrelevant, not Russia, so what do they gain from allowing this resolution to pass?

After it fails either Tehran will continue its Uranium enrichment efforts or it won't. Either way there is no threat to Russia because the US will never permit Iran to possess a nuclear weapon. By blocking the resolution they're acting as expected and, as was proven by the US when Russia blocked a second resolution against Iraq, the US will do as it will anyway and there will be no more negative fallout in Russia's direction than there was over Iraq.

Russia in blocking this appeals to anti-American sentiment at home and abroad and gains good will from Iran in the process with no risk of retribution from anyone or of Iran ever possessing a nuclear weapon. Win-win policy made possible in part by the US decision to go it alone in Iraq and undermine the UN.

[The Avon Lady]

Russia in blocking this appeals to anti-American sentiment at home and abroad and gains good will from Iran in the process with no risk of retribution from anyone or of Iran ever possessing a nuclear weapon. Win-win policy made possible in part by the US decision to go it alone in Iraq and undermine the UN.
Not your grandfather's UN (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010785.php). :nope:

[Kapitan]

All russia wants is what it can get from both sides, they offerd the UN another way and excuse to allow iran nuclear material for domestic use's.

At times i think the western worls has thier head's so far up each others own arse's they fail to see the bigger picture.

As a nutrel here i can see that russia wants confruntation from niether side so its resorting to appeasment for the time being.

Russia doesnt want a war with iran, because of the chechen rebles (who are part of al quieda), secondly russia doesnt want any heated problems with the west.

So if anyone has the real problem here its not america or iran but russia itself.

[kiwi_2005]

At times i think the western worlds has thier head's so far up each others own arse's they fail to see the bigger picture.

:yep:

[Sixpack]

This was not about Russia's self interest, which anti-western mood and interest is plain obvious.

This was sharing our (is there such thing as 'our' I wonder in this place ?) western valueing of that attitude and policy.

The way things are going the gap between Russia and the West will remain. If that's what they want, that they'll have. I can only hope for UN-issues in their interest which we can block....

And so the endless silly game continues.

[Type XXIII]

Yup, Putin has his way of annoying the Western nations. First, he started building down the democracy in Russia. Later, he acknowledged Hamas as the new Palestine authority before anyone else. Then he supported Iran's nuclear program. Then that fixed election in Belorussia. Additionally there was those Norwegian Coast Guards that were kidnapped by a Russian trawler in the Barents SEa.

I don't know, perhaps he wants to show that Russia is still a major power.

[Kapitan]

Reason why he stepped down on democracy is genuinly because when the fall came they went direct democracy and it didnt work putin is using stepping stones rather than taking a big leap he saw what it done and it seriously screwd russia up.

Russia is in a catch 22 phrase but just because he does annoy SOME western countries it doesn mean he is anti western.

The men on the trawler we put in prision for what they done.

Russia doesnt support Iran other wise they wouldnt have refused to sell them 3 more kilos hence why iran built thier own.

[The Avon Lady]

Russia doesnt support Iran other wise they wouldnt have refused to sell them 3 more kilos hence why iran built thier own.
Don't be naive! :roll:

[Oberon]

Gotta admit, Putin is exactly what Russia needs, they need a strong leader who's not going to tow the line of the western world...and they got him :yep:

[The Avon Lady]

Gotta admit, Putin is exactly what Russia needs, they need a strong leader who's not going to tow the line of the western world...and they got him :yep:
What western line is that? Freedom and democracy? :-? What are you referring to? :hmm:

[Oberon]

Touche, but you can't instantenously introduce Democracy to a country used to only communist ways. After all, the sudden introduction of Democracy to Iraq is going so well, is it not?

[August]

Touche, but you can't instantenously introduce Democracy to a country used to only communist ways. After all, the sudden introduction of Democracy to Iraq is going so well, is it not?

Dunno about that. Constitution written and adopted in 3 years? It took the US, what, 11 years after the Revolutionary war to come up with a Constitution?

[The Avon Lady]

Touche, but you can't instantenously introduce Democracy to a country used to only communist ways. After all, the sudden introduction of Democracy to Iraq is going so well, is it not?
I fully agree with you on this point. I do think that Russia needs a strong leader. I do think that Russia needs a special mix for reform, regulation and liberties.

But Putin frightens me. I get the feeling that he's not going one step back to eventually go 2 steps forward. I feel he's going to take a few more reverses and in the process make things worse for Russia, not better. To me he's Mr. Command and Control.

[Oberon]

I quite agree with you AL, when I said Putin was good for Russia, I didn't say that he was good for all of us. But then again, what is good for Russia has not always been the same as what is good for the rest of Western Europe. While I'm no Sovieophile (is that even a word?) I have no wish to see a return to the days of detente.

[scandium]

Touche, but you can't instantenously introduce Democracy to a country used to only communist ways. After all, the sudden introduction of Democracy to Iraq is going so well, is it not?

Dunno about that. Constitution written and adopted in 3 years? It took the US, what, 11 years after the Revolutionary war to come up with a Constitution?

Its a rather worthless piece of paper when there's no capability to enforce it.

[STEED]

In the last years of communist rule in Russia under Gorbachev he saw that a new age was dawning and took steps to open up the Soviet Union. This was the correct thing to do but they were those who wanted to run head long strait in to democracy the result a power struggle and in the end Yeltsin won that power struggle. And look what happen one gigantic mess he created, to busy drinking and doing a spot of dancing in front of the cameras. Result the Soviet Union fragmented and then broke up, the only thing Yeltsin got right was that surprise announcement of his resignation, leaving the government in the hands of the little-known Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. Who is repairing the damage step by step it may be slow but it’s the right way to do it.

[August]

Its a rather worthless piece of paper when there's no capability to enforce it.

At the time there was little or no federal capability to enforce the US constitution either, the Continental Army having been disbanded...

[scandium]

Its a rather worthless piece of paper when there's no capability to enforce it.

At the time there was little or no federal capability to enforce the US constitution either, the Continental Army having been disbanded...

The US 11 years after its revolutionary war doesn't compare well to present day Iraq which is on the brink of civil war. This is where enforcement capability matters.

[August]

Its a rather worthless piece of paper when there's no capability to enforce it.

At the time there was little or no federal capability to enforce the US constitution either, the Continental Army having been disbanded...

The US 11 years after its revolutionary war doesn't compare well to present day Iraq which is on the brink of civil war. This is where enforcement capability matters.

I disagree.

[Kapitan]

The divide in Iraq has been there for many a year infact its been there even before saddam came to the scene, infact the one good thing about saddams regieme was he soley stopped a civil war.

Now they have removed him iraq will be the next somalia pretty much garentted i mean what is 1,600 troops a few tanks and air craft going to do, to a few million armed vengeful iraqies.

By day they are the friends, By night the enamy.

[kiwi_2005]

Don't be naive!

Oh Shaddup Avon! Only reason the west back israel is cos they need as many friends as they can get.

You would make a good politian :yep: :-j

[Sixpack]

Don't be naive!

Oh Shaddup Avon! Only reason the west back israel is cos they need as many friends as they can get.

You would make a good politian :yep: :-j


In light of the overall quality of your post, I am sure she'll take that as a compliment :yep:

[Happy Times]

Don't be naive!

Oh Shaddup Avon! Only reason the west back israel is cos they need as many friends as they can get.

You would make a good politian :yep: :-jThey do it mostly because many Israelis roots are in the West and because it the ONLY democracy in the region. There are a millionnew imigrants in Israel from the former USSR, but they dont get support for Israel from that direction, they get growing anti semitism and support for Iran and Hamas. :doh:

[kiwi_2005]

In light of the overall quality of your post, I am sure she'll take that as a compliment

:yep: Just jiving with ya Avon. I know the crushing feeling of despair when ya haven't got ya Barrett :lol:

[CCIP]

I'm not anti-Western. I live in the west and embrace it, though conditionally. I've great admiration for a huge number of Western values; I'm no less Western than any of you here. I've certainly heaped my piles of scorn on Russian authorities - far more so than on any other authority. What I am is not anti-western - I am anti-right-wing. And that's no foreign idea.

Nor is Russia anti-western - rather, I've observed the opposite.

Tell me now, why should Russia get in bed with the West? What did the West do for Russia? So far, I have to say that Russia's mistrust is merely a justified response.

Russia has paid a huge price for Western ventures over the last 300 years at least. It has participated in every major European conflict since 1700, generally allied with one of the Western powers. What does it get for it?

Some of the most celebrated Russian military achievements were in the late 18th century against the Turks, under commanders like Suvorov. But other than fame, Russians have little to show for their efforts - in fact, Austria gave back virtually everything that the Russian troops helped take from Turkey after negotiations. 1812 - Napoleon. A catastrophe for a huge number of Russian people, but he was ultimately stopped. And 230 years later, they'd take on a much bigger fish. Crimean War - there's your love from the west (a terrible and generally forgotten conflict). World War I - it was tensions between the Western powers that launched off that one, and Russia paid for it (and their yet-another attempt to be involved) more than anyone else. Communism - for those who don't know - was invented by Germans living in Britain. The Russian revolution was an experiment of purely Western ideas. Its spectacular failure cost all of Europe a lot, but Russians the most. World War II - don't even get me started. Cold War, although that was a two-player game.

The bottom line is, Russia has paid a terrible price over the last 300 years for being involved in the West's power games. There is no tragedy in world history comparable to that of the Russian people in the last few centuries. What did they get in return? Scorn and a downright snobbish attitude. They won nothing, and are now in dire straits of their decaying country, while some of these fine Westerners here seem to be content to sit around and speculate at their next supposedly-villainous move.

And you wonder why Russia should have great love for the west?

[Happy Times]

You actually managed to make Europes largest and potentially richest country, sound like a victim of the "evil" West! :roll: You dont thnk russians have any responsibility about their own country? The constant blaming and accusing of rest of Europe and especially its neighbours is a common and irritating feature in many russians. It would do good for Russia to look in the mirror, and grow up as a nation.

[CCIP]

Where did I blame the West for Russia's situation? Although it all eventually sums up from a range of factors, I think it's safe to say that Russians have by and large themselves to blame for being unable to get past most of their problems. I just said that playing political games and social experiments with the West has not brought it only more problems, and they have been hurt tremendously by these involvements. Victimized, sometimes, but a lot of the time drawn in by their leaders' incompetence and even naivete that they can make a better world at least for themselves - and having millions of largely innocent people pay the price.

So, that's all I'm saying. So far, all I see is that Russia's involvement with the western politics or ideas costs millions of dead Russians. There's easily 60 million dead Russians for these reasons in the last century - and what does Russia have to show for it? Wounded pride?

Again, I'm more than open to proof of the contrary. But the West has simply done nothing for Russia but use it as a good source of cannon fodder.

[edit]
...and the reason I'm personally in the West iand not Russia is because, likewise, Russia had no use for me other than potential cannon fodder. The jury is still out on what things will turn out like for me here.
Again, keep in mind that I'm merely stating the obvious facts as to why Russia is not keen on cooperation on the Iraq or Iran questions, and other Western schemes that it's been reluctantly opposing. I'm not whitewashing any particular side here.

[CCIP]

Haha, and I can't believe the irony - when I was finishing that post, a (Russian) song/poem suddenly came up on my playlist that fully summed up the issue here:

The Bad Guys! The Bad Guys! The Bad Guys!
The Bad Guys! The Bad Guys! The Bad Guys!

The Bad Guys! Without water, without fire
Under the shelling swearing
And begging for only one thing:
That those Bad Guys don't die in vain

The Bad Guys entertain the Good Guys
The Good Guys! The Good Guys! The Good Guys!
The Good Guys! The Good Guys! The Good Guys!
That write about the Bad Guys nothing but
****...

Eh, to collect the tragedy
In one heavy armored load
So that all would realize their fault -
Both the Bad, and the Good Guys.


That's the only thing I'm arguing for here.

[Sea Demon]

What I am is not anti-western - I am anti-right-wing. And that's no foreign idea.

Tell me now, why should Russia get in bed with the West? What did the West do for Russia?

And you wonder why Russia should have great love for the west?

Well, as a Westerner myself, I am anti-left-wing for the exact opposite. The problem with left-wing thought is the idea of other people doing things to make your life or situation right. What has the West done for Russia??? What has Russia done for itself. Democratic policy didn't work in Russia not because the West didn't make it work for Russia. Russia must take responsibility for the inability to successfully implement political and economic reform. Don't lay the blame at the West.

I do however agree that the Clinton administration screwed up by not helping to foster the move toward democratic reforms in Russia, but ultimately it's up to Russia itself to continue progress in that direction.

And if Putin thinks it's in Russia's interest to alienate the West and help rogue nations like Iran develop non-conventional military arms, he's delusional. This will only hurt Russia in the long run.

[CCIP]

Well, Putin isn't that dumb. And he's played in with the west more than once - only when it was to his advantage.

I don't think the faults of the Putin government, let alone the Yeltzin government, are excusable. But of course you could turn it around and say that the West is perfectly reasonable in not getting too involved with 'reconstructing' Russia - after all, what interest is theirs to put back on its feet a giant with a massive nuclear arsenal?

I'm sad to acknowledge this, but from my observations of the people on both sides - the two are still in a cold war of sorts. Even if the outright animosity is gone, both still seem to snicker at each other's faults and quietly smirk to themselves when the other side gets its wings clipped. And get enraged when the other side doesn't work the way they want it to. The fact is that as the Russian government regains awareness of its world interests, it's coming back to playing the same game that the Americans haven't quit - vying for spheres of influence and a world that is as favourable to their agenda as possible.

As far as Russia and reconstruction - there's no real plot there. The fact is that democratic reform has more or less failed before it really started; and economic reform turned into a nightmare of a massive wealth gap and the complete lack of a middle class - an essential element to developing a stable liberal democracy (if such there is). Meanwhile, in a country that had a 20th century as awful as that, there isn't going to be a revolution for a long time. I wouldn't count on that at all.

So, I guess the question is "What to do about Russia?". That I don't know. Anything but a nuclear showdown, however!
The first step, I think, would be dispensing with the "Bad Guys" issue.

[Sixpack]

What I am is not anti-western - I am anti-right-wing. And that's no foreign idea.

Tell me now, why should Russia get in bed with the West? What did the West do for Russia?

And you wonder why Russia should have great love for the west?

Well, as a Westerner myself, I am anti-left-wing for the exact opposite. The problem with left-wing thought is the idea of other people doing things to make your life or situation right. What has the West done for Russia??? What has Russia done for itself. Democratic policy didn't work in Russia not because the West didn't make it work for Russia. Russia must take responsibility for the inability to successfully implement political and economic reform. Don't lay the blame at the West.

I do however agree that the Clinton administration screwed up by not helping to foster the move toward democratic reforms in Russia, but ultimately it's up to Russia itself to continue progress in that direction.

And if Putin thinks it's in Russia's interest to alienate the West and help rogue nations like Iran develop non-conventional military arms, he's delusional. This will only hurt Russia in the long run.

:yep: :up:

[Sixpack]

Anything but a nuclear showdown, however!


CCIP, c'mon that was just a 'headline' to get the viewers in. You really should have understood that...

[scandium]

Well, as a Westerner myself, I am anti-left-wing for the exact opposite. The problem with left-wing thought is the idea of other people doing things to make your life or situation right.

Where to begin with such a distorted simplification of left-wing ideology? Let's see. The left-wing tends to support public rather than private education, the rationale being that it is in society's best interest to afford an equal education to all so that all will have an opportunity to become productive citizens who can contribute to society. The ultimate goal being a skilled workforce that can create a robust economy. How is this "doing things to make your life or situation right"? I gather you prefer the right-wing approach where education is privatized and only a small minority receive a good education.

Ironic how most right-wingerers are themselves the product of public education and many have children who are also in public schools. That's the problem with right-wing ideology: it is so much easier to spout it than it is to live it; so many of the hard-fought victories the left has fought for (public education, the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, etc) are taken for granted now by those on the right that they have the luxury of being opposed to it ideologically while reaping its benefits in their day-to-day life.

Well you have your view of left-wing ideology. My view of right-wing ideology is that it is the ideology of hypocracy.

[The Avon Lady]

Maybe someone would like to begin a separate new left/right thread? :yep:

[Kapitan]

I can only say russia is in a catch 22 phrase if it supports the west 100% then the ties between moscow bejing and tehran will only make things worse.

If russia supports iran 100% then it will only make things worse between Moscow and Washington.

So russia has gone for the comprimise not wholey supporting either.

[scandium]

dupe