The Humming Bird U-boat

[Der Teddy Bar]

There has been much discussion over how easily a WWII u-boat could achieve neutral buoyancy. Even when assuming it could be done all time the time, the fact is that it took time to achieve, and when you changed depth by say 10 metres, you would have to reconfigure the boat. The guys who did this were very good at it, but again, it still took time.

U-boats were actually never set for neutral buoyancy anyway, but to slightly positive buoyancy.

For the most part, a u-boat also never was just stationary for several reasons. A negative/positive buoyancy means that your sink/raise. But the main reason was control. With no forward motion you have virtually no control over your boat and can quite easily plummet out of control should a change is the water temperature or salinity occurs.

At periscope depth, the waves would easily bring your u-boat to the surface if you tried to hover like a humming bird.

The game play enhancement of not being able to just hover like a humming bird would be immense. Attacks would have to be planned to attain an attacking position instead of just rushing in, and ‘hanging’ around till the ships arrives.

[CCIP]

I vote to make it neccesary to run the boat at a minimum speed (say, about 1kt) to keep it stable.

[lafeeverted]

Humming birds are beautiful creatures - Uboots are not humming birds. No hovering please :up:

[Der Teddy Bar]

I vote to make it neccesary to run the boat at a minimum speed (say, about 1kt) to keep it stable.
How about 2?

[CCIP]

I can live with 2. However, I had read (and I'll probably need to find that source again) that the slowest and most silent speed setting for U-boat electric engines is ~50rpm, which in SHIII equals about 1kt.

In either case, a slow sinking boat of any sort is better than a hoverboat. :up:

[JScones]

In either case, a slow sinking boat of any sort is better than a hoverboat. :up:
:yep:

[VonHelsching]

IMHO, maintaining depth was one_of_those_minute_details that a u-boat captain didn't worry to fix them himself; So I vote to leave the humming bird alone. :up:

I wouldn't like to forget this (minute detail) in the middle of the Atlantic with TC x256 while waiting for the mother_of_all_convoys and achieve crush depth in 1 minute of real time... :nope:

[The Noob]

In real, no submarine commander has to worry about keeping the depth.The chief has to do that.So its useless to simulate, because you would never notice it. :hmm:

But, at 0 knots, if you "Hover" for a while, the boat sould fall slowly yes. :yep:

And you can not go "Fall" while on surface, because the boats ballast tanks are filled with air.And while attaking underwater, you have to be carefull. :roll:

Thats it.

[donut]

When you use the(A) key to maintain depth,in real life, the dive officer,controls the depth. :damn: We just modded it so the Captain didn't have to tuck every one in bed. Let the dive Officer do his job.Why, oh why,go out of your way, to create more instability and hoop jumps.for the Captain. Strighten out Kiel Canal so that anyone can use it,plotting it, is hoop enough! Sunken ships look cool, if they can be spotted by watch crew. Otherwise, just another hoop, to stub your toe on. This is a game,Enjoy. Plus, in German waters, dont you think Germans were smart enough to remove hazerdious aids to navagation.Let Boot hover,if it has comperssed air for dive Officer to use. :up: Real life;can't vote for this hoop. :down:

[CWorth]

I to will add my vote for NO HOVER...

Make it so you must mantain some motion to keeo stable.

Though I have a feeling there will be many more no hover voters than will be keep the hover voters.

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

I gotta say NO HOVERING. I'm curious though, how do modern subs manage it? Anyone know?

:up: :arrgh!: :up:

[ironkross]

So if you get the warning "Not enough crew in engine compartment" the next thing that happens is your boat starts sinking. What if this happens at 16X TC? Will you sink before you have time to make the adjustments? Oops! Gotta go. Just finished the GW DL. :up: :D

[irish1958]

One Knot

[The Noob]

AND, i have to add, deeper than a certain depth, the boat takes water, it was modeled in Command:Aces of the Deep!The depths were (With AoD crush depths it works so!)

IIA (Not modelled in AoD) :damn:
IIC (Not in SH3) :damn:
IID ~ 170
VIIB ~ 180
VIIC 190
IXB 170
IXC (and /40 variants) 180
IXD2 190
XXI I don't know (Never used it in Aces)

But not like flooding, ah hell everyone who played aces will sure know what i mean!!!!

And i'm think the boat should sink VVVVEEEEERRRRYYYYY slow, 2 preventing issues with time compression.

And ONLY if the boat is DIVED and STOPPED!!!!!COMPLETLY STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sailor Steve]

No hover no hover no hover no hover no hover no hover

[VonHelsching]

No hover no hover no hover no hover no hover no hover

Sailor Steve,

I hope you didn't vote 6 times on the poll also. :-j

[Sailor Steve]

Vote Early, Vote Often!

Slogan (I think) from the Bleeding Kansas days.

[AlanSmithee]

No hover, please. Even if maintaining buoyancy wasn't something the captain would directly control, it was certainly something that would have an impact on his choices and actions - suddenly the "sit and wait" option becomes the tactical equivalent of attacking in heavy seas.

This may be a separate issue, but IIRC a nearby depthcharge could change the buoyancy of a sub relative to the surrounding water, causing it to rapidly assend or descend. Any way this could be modded?

[AlanSmithee]

Vote Early, Vote Often!

Slogan (I think) from the Bleeding Kansas days.

Anyone who's lived in Chicago knows this is the City's unofficial Motto. :arrgh!:

[Tikigod]

I'm for letting it sink as long as there aren't any additional side effects......if I take damage in a shallow area say 2 meters and the boat sinks as if I were at 400+ meters as a side effect I would be agaisnt it....but, as long as different scenerios are tested (different rates of flooding, damage at different depths, etc and proven I am for removing the humming bird effect....

I'm curious to what the exact historical behavior was...everyone describes this sinking effect if not in motion but, at what depth did this actually occur? because just liek a buoyancy compensator in scuba diving.......at some point the ballast does make the ship become neutral.....no matter what the weight or surface area....and it does go positive making the ship bouyant and surface again....my suggestion is to make this behavior occur at a deeper level like 50 meters and below...or wherever the historical value is based one the model boat.....someone mentioned the sim does have this have this behavior already that you need to stay moving but it occurs at a very deep depth and not at normal operating depths people usually are at during the game.....

[scandium]

Voted 'no hover' but with reservations. Biggest being visions of cruising with 64x TC at 150 metres to put some more distance away from DDs, then getting a sonar contact from a nearby merchant that drops me to 8x but not noticing right away, its the straw that breaks my electric crew's back and before I can react to "the not enough crew in electric compartment" my now still uboat has plunged to crush depth.

Okay so I have an over-active imagination but TC is one of the things this game handles really poorly: like surface cruising in 1941 in medium fog and the next thing I know I'm at 8x TC with "we're taking damage sir" scrolling and in the time it takes to drop to 1x & get to the bridge I see a flower corvette (of all things) has come out of the fog and opened up on my type IXc badly enough to almost sink it... it was only luck that it was a slow flower corvette and not a fast DD.

Thanks to the awesome guy who made SH3C these types of incidents haven't happened since (cuz of the ability to force it to 1x when encountering hostiles) but the default TC "feature" is like Russian Roulette with "no hover" a second potential bullet.

[Tikigod]

Here is post where it was discussed before:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=278077

Its been brought up a bunch of times....I think the main problem is SH3 doesn't model bilge pumps, ballast, or trim correctly....it would be alot more interesting to have a negatively bouyant boat if you could manually attempt to fine tune it...and compensate with bouyancy during damage, flooding, etc......otherwise it has to be like a hummingbird to be automatic like everything else in the sim....

I have a feeling once you start taking damage...after removing the hummingbird effect...the game will become irritating because in reality you only can pump air into your ballast like 4 times total (the amount of times the developers allow you to use your compressor based on the default presets) to compensate for negative effects related to damage.....there needs to be more refined control of at least the ballast in order to compensate once your boat begins to take on water...I can see a scenerio where you might be deep and sink even though you are going at a fast speed but cant maintain depth because the ballast doesnt aid like it should.....

[Dantenoc]

There is already a too large amount of things that the captain has to do personaly becuase the crew are totaly incompetent to add yet another worry :down:

This is definitely NOT the games weakest point... LOTS of other features should take precedence, let's focus on those, no?

[Der Teddy Bar]

Where did I say the captain had to do anything other than order the u-boat to maintain a certain speed. Don't you already have to do that?

As for other focus points... well lets do what we can?

[lafeeverted]

The principle is simple , if you are not moving while submerged you sink. If it can be implemented that way , then it makes sense.

[zombiewolf]

I believe that since we are not hunting in a pack but rather as lone wolves some "uberness" should be afforded .

hover baby :up: :|\

[Khayman]

A good few times in heavy to medium seas I've moved into the perfect postion and waited on my prey. I've followed their sound contact, raised the periscope to finally fire....and found my boat has drifted a little too deep and all I see is a nice underwater panorama.

I have to go from all stop to at least ahead one third and order periscope depth again, and it seems to take a maddening amount of time to do so!

I've also noticed that when at periscope depth and moving at flank speed your conning tower has a tendency to pop up above the waves and be spotted by alert crews from some 4000 yards :o

[HEMISENT]

Teddy
Is anything going on with this or did the non-hovering U boat idea die a quiet death?

I, for one thought it was a good idea.

[CybrSlydr]

When you use the(A) key to maintain depth,in real life, the dive officer,controls the depth. :damn: We just modded it so the Captain didn't have to tuck every one in bed. Let the dive Officer do his job.Why, oh why,go out of your way, to create more instability and hoop jumps.for the Captain. Strighten out Kiel Canal so that anyone can use it,plotting it, is hoop enough! Sunken ships look cool, if they can be spotted by watch crew. Otherwise, just another hoop, to stub your toe on. This is a game,Enjoy. Plus, in German waters, dont you think Germans were smart enough to remove hazerdious aids to navagation.Let Boot hover,if it has comperssed air for dive Officer to use. :up: Real life;can't vote for this hoop. :down:
:rock::rock:

Rock on brother!

[Floater]

It depends on your desire for realism. In real life, U-boats could not hover - without movement of water over the dive planes caused by motion of the boat, they would either sink or rise to the surface. The same goes for any submarines of the period.

Later boats had much more complex automated trim systems that allowed hovering, but this wasn't the case at any time near WWII. The only exception was when a boat found itself able to park on top of a thermal layer - this was a very rare thing.

Hover all you like, but please don't pretend it's historically accurate to be able to do that. If you want accuracy, maintain at least 2-3kts when submerged, especially when near the surface. The faster you go, the more chance the planesmen have of keeping you at your required depth.

[CCIP]

Hover all you like, but please don't pretend it's historically accurate to be able to do that. If you want accuracy, maintain at least 2-3kts when submerged, especially when near the surface. The faster you go, the more chance the planesmen have of keeping you at your required depth.
And now it's my turn to say ":rock::rock: Rock on, brother"

;)

To each his own. NYGM TW is not really a mod for those who just want a 'hoopless' game to play, you know. But the hoops are where the feeling's at for some :up:

[VipertheSniper]

AND, i have to add, deeper than a certain depth, the boat takes water, it was modeled in Command:Aces of the Deep!The depths were (With AoD crush depths it works so!)

IIA (Not modelled in AoD) :damn:
IIC (Not in SH3) :damn:
IID ~ 170
VIIB ~ 180
VIIC 190
IXB 170
IXC (and /40 variants) 180
IXD2 190
XXI I don't know (Never used it in Aces)

But not like flooding, ah hell everyone who played aces will sure know what i mean!!!!

And i'm think the boat should sink VVVVEEEEERRRRYYYYY slow, 2 preventing issues with time compression.

And ONLY if the boat is DIVED and STOPPED!!!!!COMPLETLY STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!
You only took water when you were either silent running, or below crush depth, because the bilge couldn't keep up with the water coming in. I know exactly what you mean, when you were down below too long, you had to blow ballasts. As for standing still at PD and waiting for a convoy... no way, but the interface at the map was a bit better, so setting up your position right was a lot easier. OH.. and I think the escorts were mostly dependant on visual detection, even in late war.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Teddy
Is anything going on with this or did the non-hovering U boat idea die a quiet death?

I, for one thought it was a good idea. It has been ready since we tracked down the crash dive bug as outlined in this thread ==> http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=92883&highlight=crash+dive+blues

It works great and is a hoot. You really need to plan your attack run otherwise you might over shoot or not get back to persicope depth in time.

Will be released in the NYGM Tonnage War V2 very shortly.

[Ula Jolly]

Hover. Hover. Hover.
OR, make it a realism setting.

[HEMISENT]

It works great and is a hoot. You really need to plan your attack run otherwise you might over shoot or not get back to persicope depth in time.

Will be released in the NYGM Tonnage War V2 very shortly.

Outstanding, looking forward to it:up:

[Myxale]

Outstanding, looking forward to it:up:

Ultra Cool! Gimme all the hardcore you can muster Herr Kaleun!:rock:

[Rosencrantz]

God heavens! What's going on here? :o

Well, it's nice to see I'm not the only one who doesn't like boats ability to keep its balance at 0 if submerged.
Because the system is what it is and there is no mod for this (and I doubt if there ever will be if it's hardcoded), I'll never give my speed go under 2 knots.

-RC-

[Uber Gruber]

And will NYGM TW 2.0 be ready before WaW 1st patrol Teddy ? I'm sure thats the goal but what is your gut feel ?

Cheers....:yep:

[greyrider]

from what i read on this post, you guys are trying to sell the notion that a submarine cannot stay at a constant depth without speed. your saying that without speed the boat will sink like a stone.

let me ask you a question: if there are no systems aboard that can conpensate to maintain a constant depth, then there is also not a system that would keep the boat from listing , am i correct?

so if your going to maintain the position of speed being the primary factor in keeping depth, then i guess speed is also needed to keep the boat from listing.

so now, without speed,you have a real problem with your boats, youll never be able to attack ships, because your view threw the scope will either show you ocean or sky.

me, i let the trim and drain systems take care of my boats ballast and trim. this way, i can hover as long as my boat is balanced, whether bow to stern, or port to starboard.

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/trim/index.htm

[Sailor Steve]

Sorry, but every ship and boat has a system to keep it from listing. It's called a KEEL, and it consists of a very heavy piece of steel running the entire length of the the ship, and is also aided by heavy ballast made of sand, concrete or in a submarine's case the batteries. The ship will not list while sitting still, unless it has taken on additional ballast in the form of damage allowing water in on one side or the other.

It is a known fact that WWII-era subs could not sit still underwater for any length of time without either rising or sinking. They MIGHT be able to pull it off for a while by adjusting the tanks, but that requires allowing ballast water in or blowing it out, and either one is very noisy, thus defeating the point of being silent.

Listing? Please reply when you have some real facts at hand.

[U-Bones]

The inability to maintain a specific, exact and constant depth does not neccessarily mean that you are on a fast track to crush depth. The trim of the boat, even if inappropriate for maintaining the exact desired depth, is in fact appropriate for a specific depth, presumably close to the desired depth. Relative stability is only a few feet away in most cases, although relatively slow degradation is to be expected under normal circumstances.

I would be more enthused if we had pumps and more than 4 blows of the tanks.

All that said, I can deal with it either way - I usually avoid all stop in game anyway, for the same reasons I surface only for air or recharging in rough seas.

[CCIP]

Far from being on fast track, however! I believe the sink rates we're speaking about here are very small - after all, they're compensated by only a couple of knots forward speed.
It would take you quite a while to get to crush depth.

On the other hand, what's the incentive to stay still, anyway? We've already established that a U-boat needs the dive plane control to keep periscope depth, for which it needs to be moving, and down below... what difference does a couple of knots make? Both in SHIII and in reality, there is little if any difference between silent running and staying still (in fact, the blowing/flooding of tanks to keep still would likely be a lot noisier than the electric motors)

[greyrider]

sailor steve wites:

Listing? Please reply when you have some real facts at hand.

i did, at the bottom of my post was a link, maybe you didnt see it, wheres yours?

by the way sailor steve, did you ever hear of neutral Buoyancy? i want to see your proof steve, and i dont want to see it from novels.

[Heibges]

If you never stop your engines, would ever notice the hummingbird effect?

If I never go slower than 1kt, would I notice any difference by using the mod?

[Sailor Steve]

sailor steve wites:



i did, at the bottom of my post was a link, maybe you didnt see it, wheres yours?

by the way sailor steve, did you ever hear of neutral Buoyancy? i want to see your proof steve, and i dont want to see it from novels.
My apologies, I stand (partly) corrected. All it says is that the boat can list if both saddle tanks are not filled equally. As to neutral bouyancy, that's what this topic is all about. It is a state very difficult to obtain in real life, at least without the aid of modern computer-driven ballasting systems.

And no, I very rarely read novels-my library is mostly reference and technical books.

[U-Bones]

Far from being on fast track, however! I believe the sink rates we're speaking about here are very small - after all, they're compensated by only a couple of knots forward speed.
It would take you quite a while to get to crush depth.

On the other hand, what's the incentive to stay still, anyway? We've already established that a U-boat needs the dive plane control to keep periscope depth, for which it needs to be moving, and down below... what difference does a couple of knots make? Both in SHIII and in reality, there is little if any difference between silent running and staying still (in fact, the blowing/flooding of tanks to keep still would likely be a lot noisier than the electric motors)
Not to beat the point to death, but... The case has been made against indefinate hovering, but there has been no case made against the ability to hover for a period of time. Similarily, the point about noise is also sensitve to length of time... if you are only pumping/blowing every 30 minutes, then there are 29 minutes where all stop is a lot quieter than creep.

So I guess the question is - how long ?

If this behaves like a light switch, to me it will simply be irritating, and just as unrealistic as the original behavior. At least default allows you to pretend you have a crew that has a sense of self preservation.

[Umfuld]

What it comes down to is what you want out of the game. Don't like the humming bird effect? Don't sit still while submerged. Simple as that.

[Sailor Steve]

I was just thinking that very thing myself, and I never stop underwater (unless I'm hiding on the bottom).

On the other hand, If you're trying to get absolute realism from your mod (and it is what Teddy is trying to do) then why not go all the way? That said, I'll change my opinion to somewhat agree with greyrider. Though I responded as I did because I percieved his post to wholly derogatory toward the idea of a mod which prevents you from hovering, and I still disagree that you would need speed to keep from listing (all that's required is the proper trim in the tanks), it seems to me that the possibility of the boat taking on a permanent list through damage to one ballast tank could be a pretty cool thing.

[Umfuld]

I like the idea of realism. But really, I'm too lazy and impatient in my old age for a lot of the stuff. I shoot out ahead of convoys and wait. And really, I could wait until they were like 5,000m away if I wanted to before going under. But meh, I just do it when they're 20,000 if I feel like it.

It had'nt occured to me that a u-boat couldn't hover until this here thread. Interesting. Maybe I'll try it without the hover from now on.

[Rosencrantz]

Greyrider wrote:


sailor steve wites:

Quote:
Listing? Please reply when you have some real facts at hand.

i did, at the bottom of my post was a link, maybe you didnt see it, wheres yours?

by the way sailor steve, did you ever hear of neutral Buoyancy? i want to see your proof steve, and i dont want to see it from novels.




Hello Grey, after a long time!

About the listing and losing the depth control:

Heinz Schaeffer, the former cmdr of U977 writes in his book U977, page 58 (finish translation): "If the boat would lay down quiet, it would go to the bottom, because in the practice there is not any kind of drifting pictured in the ghost stories about the ships dissapeared forever. Boat has to move on to keep its depth."
In theory it's possible to trim the boat for the certain depth without need to use any speed. But in practice the hole situation is different. Only few more kg's is needed to make the boat to loose the depth. Sometimes it's possible to find a layer of very heavy water. If the boat can be trimmed on that heavy water it's possible to stop the engines and just lay quiet. The heave water is then carrying the boat. BUT, in the conditions of the Atlantic, these kind of layers are: A) not constant and B) usually in the depths out of Uboats normal opdepth. I'm not sure, but on the coast near big rivers (a lot of not salty water coming to the ocean) situation pictured above could be possible and more frequent.

So, that's it. But how about your sonar operations? Have you tried them in the front? ;)

Well, anyway, it's good to see you again!

Greetings,

-Rosie-

[Observer]

And will NYGM TW 2.0 be ready before WaW 1st patrol Teddy ? I'm sure thats the goal but what is your gut feel ?

Cheers....:yep:

That's the plan...

[joea]

No hovering for me.

[Sulikate]

1kt seems to be a good min speed to me.

[Observer]

For those who do not know or understand, submarine buoyancy is affected by several different factors including: water temperature, salinity, and depth. Depth in this case is related to hull compressibility and consequently submarine buoyancy rather than water temperature.

Secondly, I see much discussion on the fact that attaining neutral buoyancy (i.e. the humming bird effect) is impossible (not true, but it is nearly impossible so for the purpose of this sim it amounts to the same thing), but no discussion on how this is done. The following is a brief (very brief) outline on how this is done on a 688 class fast attack submarine. Granted, I don't know what the trim and drain system look like on a uboat, but I can imagine, and I'd bet it's not that different from a 688 though many would probably be shocked to hear it.

Now the procedure:

The DOOW establishes an Ahead 1/3 (or 3 knot) trim. This would be the same as an Ahead Slow trim in SH3. This can take from just a few minutes to 30 minutes depending on the skill of the DOOW, the speed at which the boat had been traveling previously, and the time since the last trim compensation. Traveling submerged at high speeds allows the boat to "hide" quite a bit of extra water. This becomes very obvious when you slow down. This isn't nearly the problem for WWII era boats, but it still must be compensated for.

A quick note on trim compensations. The DOOW adjusts the boats trim very frequently in order to compensate for a number of factors that could tend to make the boats buoyancy change. These include: potable water production or consumption, pumping sanitaries, pumping bilges, shooting trash, moving stores, and so on.

The DOOW achieves a 3 knot trim by watching the planesmen once the boat has slowed. If the boat very close to trim, depth can usually be maintained by the inboard station (fairwater planes...the bow planesman on a Uboat). If the boat is way out of trim, the DOOW will have to put an angle on the boat to help maintain depth (an up angle is the boat is heavy for instance, and as is the case in most instances). If still unable to maintain depth with full rise on the planes and a 5 degree angle on the boat, the DOOW will ask the OOD for speed (DOOW use the following progression to help maintain depth: Planes, Angle, Speed).

By observing the amount of plane action necessary to maintain depth, the DOOW can adjust fore/aft trim and trim for neutral buoyancy by taking on water, or pumping off water as the case may be. There are a number of thumbrules the DOOW uses to help in determining the mass of water to move on the boat.

Once a satisfactory 3 knot trim is achieved, and if desired, the DOOW will ask the OOD to slow to 2 knots, where the process starts over, and so on until a bare steerage way neutral trim is achieved. As you can imagine, this is a very time consuming and intensive process. There is a science to this process, but most DOOW in my experience do it by the seat of the pants and rely heavily on experience. In most cases a 3 knot trim is adequate before doing special operations such as periscope depth. In the case of periscope depth, after the DOOW has achieved a 3 knot trim, he will then trim the boat for PD operations.

About the only system I've seen that's really effective at hovering is something like the automated system on Ohio Class SSBNs. It uses a series of sensors to monitor the vertical acceleration, then compensates with the trim pump. Because of the size and complexity of such a system, it's not really very practical for 688s (with a few notable exceptions).

That's just my view based on my time on the pond.

[Heibges]

I think 2kts makes it too easy to get away from escorts. You travel twice the distance over the same amount of time then if you were travelling 1kt. And I think 1kt is more realistic as far as what was "sound location speed".

[donut]

Requirements
#1 1 Knot,fore or aft movement

#2 Helm rating for planemen & Dive Officer,

#3 Rank & experience,of CE & Planesmen,:up: improve stability of boat

[CCIP]

Those worried about the sink rates can calm down about the sink rates, by the way. Last I checked, they were nearly negligible - you can stop for a while, in fact, without a serious loss of depth, and still be able to maintain periscope depth in calm weather (but not in storms).

[U-Bones]

Those worried about the sink rates can calm down about the sink rates, by the way. Last I checked, they were nearly negligible - you can stop for a while, in fact, without a serious loss of depth, and still be able to maintain periscope depth in calm weather (but not in storms).

Sounds good.:up:

[Myxale]

:rock:

[CybrSlydr]

I think what irks me the most is this sense of superiority vibe I get off folks who are realism nazis like this.

This is not indicitive of this post. Just a feeling I get from alot of forums.

[Myxale]

I think what irks me the most is this sense of superiority vibe I get off folks who are realism nazis like this.

This is not indicitive of this post. Just a feeling I get from alot of forums.

:o
I think this is far fetched and a rude thing to say. All we want is to make this game more of a challenge. And that's simply a thing about taste!
It's not like we forcing people to do anything!
As for the "...are better than thou!" That's bollocks!
This board here is a nice place, full of nice folks! And i rather leave it that way! :shifty:

[CybrSlydr]

:o
I think this is far fetched and a rude thing to say. All we want is to make this game more of a challenge. And that's simply a thing about taste!
It's not like we forcing people to do anything!
As for the "...are better than thou!" That's bollocks!
This board here is a nice place, full of nice folks! And i rather leave it that way! :shifty:

Then you clealry did not read my post. :hmm:

I said my post was not indictive of this thread (
Indictive
\In*dic"tive\, a. [L. indictivus. See Indict (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=indict).] Proclaimed; declared; public. --Kennet.). Meaning, I'm not using this thread as a sole or exclusive example.



I also stated that I see stuff like this on other forums. You should visit Ubi-zoo's IL2 forums or watch some of the rivet-counter ravers on civil flight sim forums.

[Myxale]

:doh: Sorry you can't blame a sod like me for not knowing "ALL" of english ever invented!;)

[Engel der Vernichtung]

Speaking of realism nazis... I thought he'd just misspelled "indicative".

[CybrSlydr]

lmfao :rotfl::rotfl:

Nah, just never knew it didn't have that other "I" in it. :up:

[CCIP]

It's easier to be a realism nazi than otherwise. We always have numbers on our side :88)

Otherwise, I think it's hard to avoid this; NYGM really is the die-hard mod in most senses, since all its developers are seasoned simming die-hards.

But stop worrying about the humming bird already! I am testing the final version of this mod now, and it's really not a nuisance to any extent. At least in the type II, and I'm sure it's the same for other boats, the sink rate we're talking about is about 0.5m/minute, I think. That means it'll take you a good 3 hours to get to crush depth even on this weak little duck. :hmm:

[Ducimus]

Sounds like High TC while waiting for whatever stationary while submerged, and this mod won't mix very well. Not that i partuclarlly have a problem with that, but sometimes the game drags on enough by itself.

[CybrSlydr]

So...

Is the mod implementing atleast a new keyboard shortcut for 1kt? Or do we still have to use Ahead-Slow?

[greyrider]

there are alot of good posts here,
u-bones, ccip, sailor steve, rosencrantz, and observer.
i enjoyed reading your posts.
all you guys really want to do is to make the game as realistic as it can get,
and im with you all the way.
you guys breath life into sh3 everyday.
the manual i linked too didnt really say anything about keeping depth while motionless,
but i think it implied it.
observer, if he is not a real submariner, than he fooled me, also implied it.
sailor steve basically said the same thing.
it seems that the only part of the question that needs to be answered is how long can it hover motionless.
and to my friend rosencrantz, how you doing you old sea dog? i hope everything is well.
to answer your question, i have been working on that almost daily for the last 23 days, since i docked
at kiel from my 2nd patrol in the wpl campaign. ill be going on my 3rd patrol in two real days, and i
am going to use what i learned about sound_ranging with passive sonar in that patrol to see if it has merit or not. i think it does, but i want to be sure.
i used it once in my second patrol, and i got course , speed, range and bearing on a target over fiftenn km away.
the target was about 1km closer than i had ranged it for, but the course and speed was right on.
this shocked me, and made me continue to investigate this method.
its using sound cones, and sound cone width, because the width is related to range.
remember sh2 map with sound contact produced a sound cone? the target position was aways half the range of the sound cone.
another way is to compare the sound intensity of the ambient sound of the hydrophones, to the sound intensity of the screws.
at long ranges, on a targets main bearing, you hear both screws and ambients.
as the range closes between observer and target, ambients remain constant, screws gets louder.
eventually screws overpower ambients until ambients cant be heard at all. these are some of the trigger points
i have set, trigger points meaning known ranges.
the reverse happens on a ship going away.
using the volume switch on the hydrophones, sometimes turned up full, other times turned down full, listening
for these trigger points.
for instance, when the volume switch on the hydrophones is turned up full, at 34 km, you will be able to hear screws.
turn the volume switch down full, on the same bearing, and you cannot hear the screws.
so now you know your target is between 32 to 34 km away. whwen you begin to hear screws again, the target is ranged
at 32 km, a "known trigger point and range".
if the screws where still heard after you turned down the volume switch, then the target is closer than 32 km, and will have to be picked
up by other trigger points.
using the hydrophones with these three methods turn the hydrophones into a reliable measuring instrument for
estimating range to target.
the only problem i see is how to explain sound. ill see if it works, then worry about explanations later.

[Rosencrantz]

Greyrider wrote:

and to my friend rosencrantz, how you doing you old sea dog? i hope everything is well.
to answer your question, i have been working on that almost daily for the last 23 days, since i docked
at kiel from my 2nd patrol in the wpl campaign. ill be going on my 3rd patrol in two real days, and i
am going to use what i learned about sound_ranging with passive sonar in that patrol to see if it has merit or not. i think it does, but i want to be sure.




Conn - Sonar: It's nice to hear about you and your research again, Big Ear! Really interesting to read and the latest results you have got... Have to say, A Good Shot, my friend! :yep:
A month ago I was coming back to Kiel with U22 we picked up one Sierra at Kattegat while on trim dive. It was out of sight, so I carried on the basic plotting. By hearing I assumed the target can't be closer than 15000 and after I looked the intelligency stuff I was pretty sure it was a frachter making 7 knots, course 250 about, range 16000. With no eels I didn't bother to get any closer to it, so can't be sure.
But I can see you have worked really hard with the range estimations, the basic problem with passive system. I haven't botherd, especially after I have started to use 16kms visual range mod with RuB/NYGM. I should, it's not a long time when on the Sea of Norway I tried to catch a target couple times after a quick TMA - with no results. The weather was bloody awfull, heavy seas with fog and so and the visibility anything from 4000 down to zero.
So I'm looking forward what you are gonna find! :up:

And: I'm fine thanks! Hope you are doing well too!

Greetings,

-RC-

[Hylander_1314]

You mean I've been wasting battery power all this time going in circles!

I never stopped the boat for much time except to try and throw off the escorts while submerged. I thought the boat would lose trim.