GW vs RuB

[vodkaphile]

I figured this topic would draw more attention...:P

Anyway.

How does GW compare to RuB as far as realism, difficulty...etc?


The screenshots look good, the campaign changes, etc look nice but how realistic is it all?


The only thing I saw that I didn't really like -- changing AS zoom to 10x? Were there 10x scopes?


Thanks in advance..

[JScones]

Yes, I'd like to know this too. :yep: Anyone?

[CCIP]

Not really a good comparison because GW includes pretty much all of RUb, and then adds on top of it. It should, on the whole, be an improvement over RUb - the only concer is that it's very new and, even after beta testing, could end up showing rough edges like RUb did in many of its earlier versions.

The more relevant comparison right now is between GW and NYGM, but it's also rather speculative; I lean more toward NYGMs list of realism-related features, many of which are based on very 'cutting edge' modding approaches, but GW isn't too shabby either. :hmm:

[JScones]

Thanks CCIP. I must admit I have a partial soft spot for RUb. But it may be time to let go... Or perhaps wait for a Grey Wolves Tonnage War mod.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I am writing up a document entitled GW Concepts that covers this issue and other "Why did we do that?" topics.

The problem is that I am exhausted lol...

and I also have to work extra shifts this week since we are very short-handed at work. I am trying to figure out how to pace myself and triage what to do first...

First thing I want to do is correct my mistakes on the credits page.

I need 2-4 days to get this done and posted. Its important stuff... so I don't want to rush it.

I am also keen to hash out making it fully SH3 Commander compatible. (Our Sim.cfg has several altered values.)

Don't worry. I'll get to everything. :D Though probably not as quick as I would like to.

[CCIP]

Thanks CCIP. I must admit I have a partial soft spot for RUb. But it may be time to let go... Or perhaps wait for a Grey Wolves Tonnage War mod.

I wonder if you could make a quick update to make SHIII commander work with the Tonnage War mod changes - just so that it doesn't overwrite some of the changes made by NYGM files. I think Greywolves is the same.

And yea... Sim.cfg has been a bit of a pain for my personal config. My solution so far has been taking out my DVD, pressing play SHIII in commander, and then copying back some of the custom files before starting up SHIII.

[JScones]

That's not necessary. SH3Cmdr *only* changes the LostConcactTime value in SIM.CFG, nothing else. It will not overwrite any other setting.

If changing this value does cause a conflict, the fix is simple - just set the LostContactTimeUpper and LostContactTimeLower values in SH3Cmdr's "Miscellaneous.cfg" to be whatever value GW expects.

I would have been happy to clarify this during development but was never asked...

Re SH3Cmdr and NYGM, I have the fix included as part of R2.5. I'll see what compat probs may exist with GW and consider whether I need to bring forward the release.

[HEMISENT]

Jscones
Check your pm.

Thanks

[CCIP]

That's not necessary. SH3Cmdr *only* changes the LostConcactTime value in SIM.CFG, nothing else. It will not overwrite any other setting.

Oh, thanks!

That's not for either NYGM or GW, since I'm kind of hogging my own AI sensor solution :lol:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Not really a good comparison because GW includes pretty much all of RUb, and then adds on top of it. It should, on the whole, be an improvement over RUb - the only concer is that it's very new and, even after beta testing, could end up showing rough edges like RUb did in many of its earlier versions.

The more relevant comparison right now is between GW and NYGM, but it's also rather speculative; I lean more toward NYGMs list of realism-related features, many of which are based on very 'cutting edge' modding approaches, but GW isn't too shabby either. :hmm:

I want to say this... before being misunderstood. GW is not based on RUb. It is based on the work of people like you who have contributed to RUb... and those contributions.... most of which have been further modded by the GW team.

I will explain what I mean as tactfully and as sensitively as I am able to when I post the article I spoke of earlier.

GW is and will remain a stand-alone mod that does not require RUb or any other large mod to function.

GW was born as an alternative to limited choices, and from my stand-point... occasionally closed minds, and negative attitudes. Work began in mid-November 2005.

In the same vein of providing for choice within the community, I have agreed to facilitate a merger which would incorporate/share common ground with the NYGM mods for those who are interested.

(The Grey Wolves-Tonnage War... its gonna be a hell of an awesome thing!)

However, GW will continue to exist... and serve a purpose as an alternative to other big mods.

[CCIP]

I want to say this... before being misunderstood. GW is not based on RUb. It is based on the work of people like you who have contributed to RUb... and those contributions.... most of which have been further modded by the GW team.

Yes, and I want to stress that I didn't mean it any other way :)

For the most part, I think it's fair that any large mod - RUb, IuB, NYGM or Greywolves - isn't really a mod as such at all, but a collection of different mods by a lot of individuals, both in the team and otherwise.

One thing that GW can't be beaten in is the sheer number of these mods that it brought together under one roof :know:

[Syxx_Killer]

Even though I have had the test versions and knew for some time what was in this mod, I'm still in awe of how much was actually done to this game. It is just amazing. GW is my first "supermod" I have used for the game. I didn't use RUb or IUb. Both seemed like good mods, but they didn't have what I was looking for. This mod has got me really excited. Since running test versions, and now the public release, I feel enthusiastic about SH3 again. GW didn't just modify SH3, it redefined it. Btw, my absolute favorite part about the mod is the new shipwrecks. I don't know why, I just love them. :rotfl:

[Old Dog]

Does anyone have the answer to a question posed in the first two posts of this thread; how does one 'get' a 10x view on the periscope and UZO ?

Thanks,
Old Dog

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I want to say this... before being misunderstood. GW is not based on RUb. It is based on the work of people like you who have contributed to RUb... and those contributions.... most of which have been further modded by the GW team.

Yes, and I want to stress that I didn't mean it any other way :)

For the most part, I think it's fair that any large mod - RUb, IuB, NYGM or Greywolves - isn't really a mod as such at all, but a collection of different mods by a lot of individuals, both in the team and otherwise.

One thing that GW can't be beaten in is the sheer number of these mods that it brought together under one roof :know:

No offense was taken at all. You are entirely correct regarding the "bigmods." They are a collection of works made by the community that are further refined by every set of modder's hands
that they pass through.

Take the ship builder/3d modeler as an example- He can build new ships all day long... but what good is that until they are scripted by the campaign builder. No one part is infinitely more important than the other.

GW could never exist without the community. The only thing I can really take credit for is the big idea and the determination to see it come to life.... (it takes big boots and weathering good deal of loneliness when doubt sets in)... and even that doesn't matter without people like Neil Stevens, and Terrapin to give these works a home.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Does anyone have the answer to a question posed in the first two posts of this thread; how does one 'get' a 10x view on the periscope and UZO ?

Thanks,
Old Dog

You can use Time-Traveller's awesome mini-tweaker to reset those values in data/Library/Cameras.dat

Give me a sec and I will edit this post to include his website.

Here you go... http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3.htm#crushdepth

Cheers!

[Old Dog]

Danke

Old Dog

[Kpt. Lehmann]

If you haven't read-up on it... make sure you do... that one program might turn you into a modding maniac. :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48760

Here you go Old Dog! :|\

[Kpt. Lehmann]

That's not necessary. SH3Cmdr *only* changes the LostConcactTime value in SIM.CFG, nothing else. It will not overwrite any other setting.

If changing this value does cause a conflict, the fix is simple - just set the LostContactTimeUpper and LostContactTimeLower values in SH3Cmdr's "Miscellaneous.cfg" to be whatever value GW expects.

I would have been happy to clarify this during development but was never asked...



My apologies JSCones, in the whirlwind of everything going on that issue became buried in my notes and lists of things to do.

I had decided to wait until recently to speak to you about it since SH3 Commander had gone through several evolutions since we began working on GW. Based on the workload lately it was a mistake to wait.

You actually just clarified everything for me and I will adapt the GW readme to suit. Compatability with SH3 Commander has been a requirement from day one, five months ago.

[JScones]

In the same vein of providing for choice within the community, I have agreed to facilitate a merger which would incorporate/share common ground with the NYGM mods for those who are interested.

(The Grey Wolves-Tonnage War... its gonna be a hell of an awesome thing!)
Pls though, when you create this merger, don't make us download the entire mod again!!! ;)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

In the same vein of providing for choice within the community, I have agreed to facilitate a merger which would incorporate/share common ground with the NYGM mods for those who are interested.

(The Grey Wolves-Tonnage War... its gonna be a hell of an awesome thing!)
Pls though, when you create this merger, don't make us download the entire mod again!!! ;)

That will be the tricky part. (I think) It needs research.

By the way, GW Users only need to select "Stock SH3" to use the GW fatigue mod no?

I need to send that to you too I guess. (Sorry, am on duty soon. I will have to do that on Tuesday when I have time to look at what needs to be copied and in what format etc.)

[JScones]

By the way, GW Users only need to select "Stock SH3" to use the GW fatigue mod no?
Assuming you are talking fatigue models, users just need to untick the "Use fatigue model" option in SH3Cmdr to take advantage of the GW model. If users physically select the "Default SH3" model, then the GW model will be overwritten by default SH3 values.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Thank you sir! :up:

[ref]

The only thing I saw that I didn't really like -- changing AS zoom to 10x? Were there 10x scopes?

This questions reminds me when I was playing Falcon 4, one of the mods changes the size of the objects by 1.5x, and there where a lot of people saying it wasn't realistic, the answer was simple, in real life you're not limited to 1024x768 pixels, or 8km radius visibility sphere, You can see in a clear day a smoke stack over the horizon line up to 20 or more miles, there wheren't 10x optics on subs in ww2, but you need to compensate for the limit's that the current computer hardware has.

Ref

[Rubini]

Yes, Ref,

And the 10x is to compensate the poor resolution and light at night on SH3 (in truth a computer limitation here) - in real life it's possible to see and identify the flags more easily than in SH3.... GW was made to meet the historical behaviour, not necessarily the hardcore realism. Alas, I should like to say only one word about GW: GW was build with the playability in mind. We need and want more fun, more eye candy, gorgeous sound and obviously a great historical behaviour. This is GW and this is the main (and small) difference from RUB...We want to play and be happy with the game! :up:


Rubini.

[vodkaphile]

Only thing about the 10x zoom won't it mess up manual range calculations?


I never use the little in-game range thing, I use the hash marks on the periscope then do the math myself.

Won't a higher zoom throw that off?

[JonZ]

I'm questioning about that myself. Do captains were able to spot smokes at very good distance with the scope with all the waters bluring the vision and the mirroring mechanism? I doubt it. But I largely agree that the visual distance on the bridge should be clearer. I think it would have been better to add more range on binoculars than the scopes.

That's my honest opinion.

[Rubini]

vodkaphile,
JonZ,

I don't notice any problem with "manual range calculations". All continue to works well.

In my GW installation all the optics have now 10x (attack periscope, binocular and UZO). I only don't mess with observation periscope.
I think that this is a way to compensate that "computer self limitations" on SH3. And somebody here have the real info about the power of the optics on the Uboats? Just curiosity...:hmm:


Rubini.

[Georg_Unterberg]

Thanks Rubini for clearing things up with 10x magnification :up:
I was wondering myself, if the calculation is correct.

For the GW team: Here's a small list of things that I feel should be tweaked in GW - at least everybody can do for himself:

- Add Wazoo's fantastic Nomograph (/data/Menu/Gui/StrTactMap.tga - it's in the NYGM mod :D ). You simply can't leave home without it!
- Remove auto-ship-ID when moving sights over it - now how was that done in good old RUB??
- Add Stieblers fixed battery ranges (fixed *.SIM files in /data/Submarine/NSS***)
- ENTER still fires Torp! Not for english people, but for germans like me. The commands_de.cfg must be copied from stock, modified manually and added in GW, where it is missing

And we need some info about SH3Commander and the settings that should be used for GW1.0 (what about TC, Crew, Wave height, reload times .....???) Will we mess up GW with the wrong settings??

Thanks a lot!! This Mod is AWESOME! :sunny:

[Montbrun]

Thanks Rubini for clearing things up with 10x magnification :up:
I was wondering myself, if the calculation is correct.

For the GW team: Here's a small list of things that I feel should be tweaked in GW - at least everybody can do for himself:

- Add Wazoo's fantastic Nomograph (/data/Menu/Gui/StrTactMap.tga - it's in the NYGM mod :D ). You simply can't leave home without it!
- Remove auto-ship-ID when moving sights over it - now how was that done in good old RUB??
- Add Stieblers fixed battery ranges (fixed *.SIM files in /data/Submarine/NSS***)
- ENTER still fires Torp! Not for english people, but for germans like me. The commands_de.cfg must be copied from stock, modified manually and added in GW, where it is missing

And we need some info about SH3Commander and the settings that should be used for GW1.0 (what about TC, Crew, Wave height, reload times .....???) Will we mess up GW with the wrong settings??

Thanks a lot!! This Mod is AWESOME! :sunny:

I have done a clean install of SH3, SH3 Commander, and JSGME. I deleted the "Career" folder under "My Documents." I then installed GW v1.00, 16km Atmosphere Light MOD, and GW 24 Hour Fatigue Model. I then ran SH3 Commander. I ran through all of the settings I like to use, but left the "Fatigue Model" option unchecked. At first I chose "Standard SH3 Crew," not knowing what the GW crew might look like. I get the following error message:

Unable to write to C:\Games\SH3\data\Menu\en_menu.txt

I then backed out, and tried the "Realistic Crew" option (which I prefer), but to no avail.

Help!

Thanks,

Montbrun

I'm having some issues with SH3 Commander too, but I'm sure that it is something easily fixed by one of the "Gurus" here....

[Rubini]

Thanks guys!

We are taking note of all comments and suggestions. Some of them will be fix/incorporate in week or two. Others will come with the first official update. :up:

And there's no problem in use SH3Cmdr, but just left all settings on the default for now.

Rubini.

[vodkaphile]

What Georg_Unterberg said.


GW mod looks promising and will be especially great after it's all polished up and fixed.


I really hope if possible GW can add some optional "hardcore" options if they're not included in the main mod to make the game more challenging and 'realistic'.


Currently with RUB, NYGM and 100% realism I can play 43 - 45 with VIIB or VIIC...sink a good 2 - 6 ships a patrol and return home with minor scratches. I still feel even RuB has too many radio messages showing where convoys are.


Although the gfx of GW seem greatly improved, I'm going to download it and put it on hold for a later version. I spent weeks tweaking my current files and making RuB/NYGM files as well as many others work together.


As I said though, the mod looks great and promising and I look forward to future updates. I appreciate all of your works.



Last thing about the 10x zoom lol... is it possible to set it to obs scope only? This may not be very realistic but it'll prompt me to use the scope a bit more often and I feel it'd be a fair middle ground.

[ref]

Last thing about the 10x zoom lol... is it possible to set it to obs scope only? This may not be very realistic but it'll prompt me to use the scope a bit more often and I feel it'd be a fair middle ground.

Use TT Mini tweaker, load Cameras.dat tweakfile and look for

UZO Optical
Periscope Optical
Binocular Optical
Obs_Periscope Optical

Change the max zoom levels to your favorites.

As always make a backup first or take note of the values you're changing in case anything goes wrong.

Ref