Potential SH3Cmdr Randomisation module - f'back needed!

[JScones]

With Hemisent's progress on the Thermal Layer and Sabotage mods, I got to thinking last night during the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony (did that actually make sense to *anyone*???) about creating a module for SH3Cmdr that will allow modders to add any randomisation events that they want. I envisaged the structure to be like:

[FILENAME]
FileType=[B for Binary or T for Text]
Section=[For text files, the section that the value sits under]
[KeyName if text file, offset if binary file]=[I for integer, Fx for float, where x is the number of decimal places|LowerBoundaryValue|UpperBoundaryValue|Y for randomise mid patrol, N for not]

So, using live examples:

[SIM.CFG]
FileType=T
NbSections=1
0_Section=AI Detection
0_Lost contact time=I|15|45|Y ;Randomises the time Escorts spend looking for U-Boats after losing contact

[SCENE.DAT]
FileType=B
691=I|256|480|N ;Randomises wave height between 1 and 2 times. 691 is the MaxWaveHeight offset value - obtained from any TT tool - this is just an example and not a feature of SH3Cmdr
975=I|0|20|N ;Randomises water density between 0 and 20. 975 is the UnderwaterFogEnd(Fog) offset value - again, just an example

This will remove the need to use the Random folders for (hopefully) everything other than graphics.

Anyway, these are just my initial thoughts - I'm sure the concept will expand as I (nay, we) think of more ways to use it, like allowing text/label randomisation...

To see whether this is worth it, would people see value with this approach? What other events could you see it being used for? Or what other events would you *like it* to be used for? My view is basically *any* value in *any* file could be randomised. The one limitation I see at the moment is that randomisation would be independant. That is, there'd be no connection between the randomisation of one value and another. Although, I'm sure I can come up with a solution if I actually think about it! ;)

[gouldjg]

You Know where my vote lies on this

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: The game would be great.

DO It Man Dooooo Ittttt

:up: :up:

[Der Teddy Bar]

I am only commenting on this item, not the idea etc

Lost contact time...

this value is already rediculously low, even in 1939 they spent up to 36 hours. Again, not always, it all depended on obligations and the 'yer we killed him'

But to reduce the 40 minutes....

[Reece]

Graphic, Music, Sounds Effects, & Speech! :) I don't think your numbered directory's should be removed! :o

[JScones]

Lost contact time...

this value is already rediculously low, even in 1939 they spent up to 36 hours. Again, not always, it all depended on obligations and the 'yer we killed him'

But to reduce the 40 minutes....
No disagreement there - but you have to factor in SH3. Set the value to anything much higher than 40 and then the escorts lose contact with the convoy they're guarding, meaning that if you evade them, you'll have a potentially unescorted convoy to pick at while they chug back at their preset speed. That's where the balance between reality and simulation is required.

But, if players want to set the time to between 40|2160, nothing's stopping them, even now... ;)

Anyway, stop highjacking my thread! :P

[JScones]

Graphic, Music, Sounds Effects, & Speech! :) I don't think your numbered directory's should be removed! :o
There's no plan to remove the Random folders - they'll stay. This is just (hopefully) an easier way to randomise the values in already existing game files.

[Clyde00]

Sounds like a very good plan indeed!! :yep:

It will save me some hard disk space as I have dat and cfg copies everywhere in the random folders.

[JScones]

What kind of things do you randomise?

[gouldjg]

For me there is a list that would have potential

Zones.cfg the whole doc = essential and will probably do for many players, not just the numbers but also the ability to change special effects.

Basic config = essential, medals, renown, fatigues etc etc

Sim cfgs = Highly desired

Airbases = Highly desired

Now if it is possible to do same for the .zon files concerning DC, shells, and sensors = Extra cool

I suppose a logical order would be required,

1. Damage first as it would be the easiest to do (for me anyway). It would also satisfy many players in the random whom just want slight changes.

2. Enemy behaviour second (a bit more thought needed but at least loses the predictability and adds the unkown)

3. Sounds, effects and graphical i.e. waves, sea colours, weather,

The strengh in your system would be the ease of preparing a randomised event.

The potential weakness would be that it may be difficult to add the one of i.e. 1 in 100 chance of a special events I would have liked to have added e.g. rapid flooding, fast sinkings, single hedgehog/dc kills etc and complete set of duds.

If what you propose caould also have a line adding the probability of each change then fine. If not, itmay be best to go via the folders.

Pros and Cons

[ref]

...The one limitation I see at the moment is that randomisation would be independant. That is, there'd be no connection between the randomisation of one value and another. Although, I'm sure I can come up with a solution if I actually think about it! ;)

Perhaps you should add groups

[My mod]

[SIM.CFG]
FileType=T
NbSections=1
0_Section=AI Detection
0_Lost contact time=I|15|45 ;Randomises the time Escorts spend looking for U-Boats after losing contact

[SCENE.DAT]
FileType=B
691=I|256|480 ;Randomises wave height between 1 and 2 times.

[/My Mod]

Ref

[JScones]

Now if it is possible to do same for the .zon files concerning DC, shells, and sensors = Extra cool
Yeah, why not? As long as you know the offset you will be able to randomise the values stored in the binary files as if you had manually changed them via one of TT's tools.

[Clyde00]

I don't go radically overboard when randomizing anything. Little changes on some of the files don't seem like alot till you get in the game.

I randomize crew visual ranges, not big changes but little ones to simulate "off" or bad mood days (don't go too far cause crew morale and efficiency can really mess with these)

The wave amplitude and attenuation, the lost contact time, and the detection time\sensitivity in the sim.cfg

Small changes in the airstrike.cfg for probabilities and logic steps for attacking.

Ranges in the ai_senors.dat

Bomb damage in the bomb.sim

Ranges in the sensors.dat

Different smoke effects (found in forums for MiniTweaker) in the particles sections of Tweaker. A little randomization of the smoke effects makes the game seem a little more real.

Have tried to change the flooding speed in the submarine sim files but have weird behavior or no noticeable effects in the sim.

Factors in the sensors.cfg

Taking away and adding different .ogg messages for the crew to speak. (msgogg)

Different loadout for the planes (bombs, lights, etc...)

And the usual graphics tga's and sounds.

Most changes are very slight, but the difference of a couple hundred yards in game adds a little element of surprise and a human factor to it I guess.

[gouldjg]

Brilliant,

What about the 1 in 100/0 chance examples, could you devise a method in your method that would allow probability also or would that be unrealistic?

Also could you make this date specific i.e. occur within timeframes set in game i.e. 1943 settings.

With regards to you being able to do zon files,

I would definitely like to have the ability to offset certain sensors for DD's.

Just small changes that mean I am detected earlier than thought through hydrophones or have managed to slip the screen of visual spotters for a surface night attack (Im sure you get the picture).



My key to a good game is one that forces the me to ask myself the following questions:-

Do I or do I not take the chance, If so what consequences/payoffs will happen to me?.

I do not want to know exact rules i.e. ranges, responses and damage taken apart from the basic rules of reasonableness for that time period. If it was reasonably foreseeable for something to happen then it should have a probability of it happening.

Everything else is down to luck and fate and I like that part the most.

[VonHelsching]

I was thinking more of a seperate application (probably within the SH3Cdr GUI) and not SH3Cdr handling directly radnomisations (if I understood correct from your first post). This application I am thinking would be the equivalent of JSGME, FOR the random folders of SH3. It would help modders to organise dates and folders and remove / install any Random (c) Mods.

This "application / functionality" would just support the modders in hectic tasks, not actually assuming / performing any randomisation of values. Also the choice of variables to be randomised and the variables mix (ie. strong planes, weak subs, normal DDs vs. weak planes, normal subs , uber DDs) has to be made by modders.

"The one limitation I see at the moment is that randomisation would be independant. That is, there'd be no connection between the randomisation of one value and another".

Trying to think ahead, I imagine Random (c) Mods for every aspects of the game. This probably requires groups of similar variables to be changed in the same "direction" game-wise.

[HEMISENT]

You Know where my vote lies on this

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: The game would be great.

DO It Man Dooooo Ittttt

:up: :up:

DITTO!!!

Right now my brain is fried attempting to come up with believable ratios for the Sabotage thing-People had problems with a simple 10 folder setup in the Thermal layer mod. I cannot imagine what will happen if I have to write it for 40, 50 or even 60 folders.

[AlanSmithee]

The creativity of the modders on this forum amazes me. Woot! to all. :rock:

Now to my question: would it be possible to add a flag to each random mod allowing it to be randomized only at the beginning of a patrol? For example, the Sabotage mod would only be randomized at the beginning of a patrol (so damaged equipment doesn't magically "fix" itself), while the thermal layers mod would be randomized every time someone launched using SH3 Commander?

[JCWolf]

Sorry my misstake...and posted absolutly the same post as the one it comes next! :rock: :rock:

[JCWolf]

With Hemisent's progress on the Thermal Layer and Sabotage mods, I got to thinking last night during the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony (did that actually make sense to *anyone*???) about creating a module for SH3Cmdr that will allow modders to add any randomisation events that they want. I envisaged the structure to be like:

[FILENAME]
FileType=[B for Binary or T for Text]
Section=[For text files, the section that the value sits under]
[KeyName if text file, offset if binary file]=[I for integer, Fx for float, where x is the number of decimal places|LowerBoundaryValue|UpperBoundaryValue]

So, using live examples:

[SIM.CFG]
FileType=T
NbSections=1
0_Section=AI Detection
0_Lost contact time=I|15|45 ;Randomises the time Escorts spend looking for U-Boats after losing contact

[SCENE.DAT]
FileType=B
691=I|256|480 ;Randomises wave height between 1 and 2 times. 691 is the MaxWaveHeight offset value - obtained from any TT tool - this is just an example and not a feature of SH3Cmdr
975=I|0|20 ;Randomises water density between 0 and 20. 975 is the UnderwaterFogEnd(Fog) offset value - again, just an example

This will remove the need to use the Random folders for (hopefully) everything other than graphics.

Anyway, these are just my initial thoughts - I'm sure the concept will expand as I (nay, we) think of more ways to use it, like allowing text/label randomisation...

To see whether this is worth it, would people see value with this approach? What other events could you see it being used for? Or what other events would you *like it* to be used for? My view is basically *any* value in *any* file could be randomised. The one limitation I see at the moment is that randomisation would be independant. That is, there'd be no connection between the randomisation of one value and another. Although, I'm sure I can come up with a solution if I actually think about it! ;)



Can i ask something Mate?! :-?


There is one thing that realy pisses me of on the SHIII options menu, in the sound options, if you take of the music,cause i realy don't like to play a simulation game with background music, not real, You also can't listen to the gramophone during the game play...

Is there anyway for you to had that option on the briliante
SH3Com. it can be a great adition on the ones that like me also don't like in game music....??? :up: :up:

[Sailor Steve]

WOW! Triple post!

Go into the Data/Sound/Music folder and delete everything except for the main Music file.

I did that the very first week I had the game. Also, the 1.4b patch lets you have the option of turning the music off.


Jaesen, I would also love to see easy randomization, if only to have different fanfare music each time I enter and leave port. I'm just too stupid to work the folders right.

[JCWolf]

WOW! Triple post!

Go into the Data/Sound/Music folder and delete everything except for the main Music file.

I did that the very first week I had the game. Also, the 1.4b patch lets you have the option of turning the music off.


Jaesen, I would also love to see easy randomization, if only to have different fanfare music each time I enter and leave port. I'm just too stupid to work the folders right.


I explained me badlly , what i whant is having the option to ear the Gramophone music when i whont wothout leastening to the main background SHIII music, cause in game they seemed conected to the same option sound solution....

So right now, i can't ear to the gramophone cause i turned of music on options.... :up:

[Tikigod]

I always wanted a randomizer for my loading screens:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=279024

[JScones]

Now to my question: would it be possible to add a flag to each random mod allowing it to be randomized only at the beginning of a patrol? For example, the Sabotage mod would only be randomized at the beginning of a patrol (so damaged equipment doesn't magically "fix" itself), while the thermal layers mod would be randomized every time someone launched using SH3 Commander?
Yeah, I suppose just adding a Y/N at the end of the value string would work.

[JScones]

I always wanted a randomizer for my loading screens:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=279024
You can do it with SH3Cmdr now.

Note that my proposed fix does NOT cover graphics or sound files. They must still be randomised via the Random folder feature.

[JScones]

Just some expectation management here - I intend applying the Perato principle to this feature, so I expect that I'll only end up making 80% of you happy (hehe, no obvious responses from anyone else who has studied marketing ;)).

To begin with I'll be applying the basic function, and then I'll welcome some "real live examples" of randomisation to test. It's these real life examples that determine how complex or simple the function ends up.

[VonHelsching]

It's called "Pareto", no offence. :sunny:

[JScones]

It's called "Pareto", no offence. :sunny:
Just for that you're not getting your "Export list" option. :P

:rotfl:

[VonHelsching]

It's called "Pareto", no offence. :sunny:
Just for that you're not getting your "Export list" option. :P

:rotfl:

:o
.
.
:huh:
.
.
:damn:

[gouldjg]

I'll welcome some "real live examples" of randomisation to test. It's these real life examples that determine how complex or simple the function ends up.

Can you expand on this a little more for me,

I was going to have a look at latest versions of the zone.cfg and I suppose I could apply some simple changes on equipment HP values for the sub i.e. make it possible for occasional complete destruction of certain pieces of equipment after first pass by DD.

I can just do equipment for now and leave flooding, etc till we know how it is going?

Is that what you mean?

That way it will probbly be a simple test to start,

Now lets say I want the engines to suffer disastrously but only have a chance of 1 in 1000 of it doing so.

Is your proposal going to allow this option or would it be best to go the folders way which would allow this type of stuff but take much much longer.

[HEMISENT]

Jscones
The TL values should be wrapped up for you by tonight. I'lll pm them to you. I think these would be a great test case as they're already working as advertized in the Commander's standard random function, the ratio is relatively small and your dealing with only 5 edited copies of 1 particular file, the AI_SEnsors.dat.

Still holding off on building the Sabotage random folder structure until we see how this works out-my fingers are crossed.

[JScones]

OK, I'm gonna implement at this stage two dynamic approaches.

1. For instances where simple randomisation between two boundaries is sufficient:

[SIM.CFG]
FileType=T
ByYears=0
AI Detection|Lost contact time=I|15|45|Y ;Randomises the time Escorts spend looking for U-Boats after losing contact

If "ByYears" = 1, then SH3Cmdr will look for a match based on career year. For example:

[SIM.CFG]
FileType=T
ByYears=1
1939_AI Detection|Lost contact time=I|15|45|Y
1940_AI Detection|Lost contact time=I|20|45|Y
1941_AI Detection|Lost contact time=I|20|45|Y
1942_AI Detection|Lost contact time=I|20|45|Y
1943_AI Detection|Lost contact time=I|20|45|Y
1944_AI Detection|Lost contact time=I|20|45|Y
1945_AI Detection|Lost contact time=I|30|45|Y

**The ByYears is still a thought. Whilst it would be nice, it will be the first to go if it proves too cumbersome.

2. For instances where we want to choose one of a set of values.

[AI_SENSORS.DAT]
FileType=B
ChooseFrom=5
RndMidPatrol=1
0_<offset to label AI_Hydrophone MinHeight>=-105
0_<offset to label AI_Sonar>=-90
0_<offset to label QGAP>=-105
0_<offset to label QCIP>=-105
0_<offset to label QCeP>=-105
0_<offset to label Type144P>=-108
0_<offset to label Type138P>=-105
0_<offset to label Type128P>=-100
0_<offset to label Type123P>=-100
0_<offset to label QGAA>=-90
0_<offset to label QCIA>=-88
0_<offset to label QCeA>=-93
0_<offset to label Type147A>=-95
0_<offset to label Type144A>=-98
0_<offset to label Type128A>=-85
0_<offset to label Type123A>=-88
1_<repeat for each set of values>
2_<repeat for each set of values>
3_<repeat for each set of values>
4_<repeat for each set of values>

This method will also solve the "1 in 1000 chance" type changes. You'd simply set the "ChooseFrom" value to 1000 but only add one set of values.

Hemisent, gouldjg and others, can you pls map this approach to how you may do things now to see if it covers most bases?

[HEMISENT]

For instances where we want to choose one of a set of values.

[AI_SENSORS.DAT]
FileType=B
ChooseFrom=5


So in the "ChooseFrom=" line we can enter our own value? This will enable the player to choose his/her own ratios? Commander knows there are 5 loaded files and by choosing say =10 now Commander will determine that it needs to include 5 default files to achieve the desired ratio set by player?



Hemisent, gouldjg and others, can you pls map this approach to how you may do things now to see if it covers most bases?

Please forgive me but it's early here and I'm a bit dense this morning after a late night. What do you mean by "map this approach". Right now after reading this latest idea of yours I'm simply amazed and willing to do whatever I can to assist.

[JScones]

So in the "ChooseFrom=" line we can enter our own value? This will enable the player to choose his/her own ratios? Commander knows there are 5 loaded files and by choosing say =10 now Commander will determine that it needs to include 5 default files to achieve the desired ratio set by player?
ChooseFrom can be any value you like. SH3Cmdr will read it and will create a random number between 0 and the ChooseFrom value - 1 inclusive. So, if ChooseFrom=5, then the random number generated will be 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4.

Let's say the random number chosen is 4, SH3Cmdr will then look for entries prefixed with 4_ and will insert the corresponding values into SH3. If there are no 4_ entries, then SH3Cmdr does nothing.

So, with your Thermal Layer mod, to maintain your ratio you would set the ChooseFrom value to 10, but only include 5 different sets of values (0_ through 4_). Just think of the ChooseFrom value as the number of random folders you'd want.

Please forgive me but it's early here and I'm a bit dense this morning after a late night. What do you mean by "map this approach". Right now after reading this latest idea of yours I'm simply amazed and willing to do whatever I can to assist.
Basically take what I've proposed above and apply it to your current mod(s) to see whether it would work as currently specced.

[HEMISENT]

Going off on a tangent here, I just checked the "Sabotage" mod folders
TypeVIIC 8 files
TypeIXB 9 files
TypeIXC 9 files
TypeIXD2 9 files
Periscope 1 file
Schnorkel 2 files

38 single files total which can affect subsystems. I envision this to have a ratio of perhaps 4:1 starting June 1944 with the ratio increasing to 2:1 by war's end. Is this something that may be within Commanders scope.

Plus to throw a wrench into the works I have thought of possibly combining
a couple files for added suspense