Sabotage/Malfunctions Mod Update May 15

[HEMISENT]

Since there are so many new people here lately and many are not aware of the progression of so many of the great mods that are around I thought I'd update this. It was last updated prior to release of SH3 Commander 2.6. Some players are experiencing glitches, inoperable systems, "bugs" and other things previously not experienced and may be "blaming" SH3 Commander for these problems-most of these "malfunctions" are exactly that...malfunctions.
For those that don't read the read me's SH3 Commander offers an included set of mods which I came up with. One is a "Thermal Layer" mod that simulates the effects of thermal layers and an escort's diminished ability to locate and or maintain contact with a submarine.
The other is a mod called Sabotage/Malfunctions. This mod attempts to simulate the effects to a U Boat of either Sabotage(after June 1944) or Malfunctions to certain sub-systems on the boat-in other words wear and tear, poor or unrepaired battle damage etc.

From the beginning;
June 1944 The allies invaded Normandy. This event emboldened French Resistance and Partisans throughout the area. U Boat bases saw an upswing in sabotage and unexplained maladies affecting the boats. It is common knowledge that shipyards used huge amounts of local labor to perform everything from standard maintainance to complete refits. The boat crews found themselves forced to deal with an increasing number of problems as the war progressed.
Some of these were directly related to sabotage and others were the results of just plain poor and unperformed maintainance.
The ill fated U 505 was known as a bad luck boat as it left and immediately returned due to systems failures on numerous occasions. Some accounts have the crew being accused of cowardice for always returning soon after departure.
Right now I have completed the initial stages of a sabotage mod based on the Random capabilities of SH3 Commander. Testing has been completed on the individual systems but the random folder structure is under development.
Unlike my Thermal Layer mod requiring 10 Random folders which are easily managed this Sabotage mod has a much large number of files affected and I can envision a vastly larger number of Random folders to allow for a believable ratio. That ratio has not been determined yet as the dates play a huge part of all this. As an example, in June 1944 you may experience a 10% chance of discovering a problem whereas in Oct 1944 that ratio may be as high as 50%

1. The system damage to the boat may be noticed immediately upon departure requiring an immediate return.
2. The system damage to the boat may not be discovered until you are well out to sea and it may be minor and can be compensated for allowing the boat to continue patrol.
3. The system damage to the boat may not be discovered until you are well out to sea and may require the immediate return to base using extreme caution.
4. A combination of systems failures is being looked into also.

Jscones has been contacted to see if there is a way for Commander to introduce these variables into the system without requiring the large number of random folders.

Types VIIC + all Type IX's affected

Systems affected:
Diesel & Elect max speed
Indicative of malfunction or sabotage prohibiting eng or E motors from attaining their maxinum speed potential. Possible sabotage to clutching/transmission components allowing engines/motors to achieve desired RPM but shafts themselves are not turning the correct RPM to produce required speed.

Diesel Range
Indicative of either leaking fuel tanks or engine fuel management system using excessive amounts of diesel to achieve desired performance.

E Motors Range
Indicative of worn out used batteries installed in place of fresh units on refit or
sabotage to existing batteries. Batteries are able to charge as normal but do not hold the charge as long as specifications require.

Dive times increased
Simulating faulty or sabotaged valves or manifolds.
Reduced the amount/rate of incoming water required to rid the boat of bouyancy. This increases the standard & crash dive times by 25 - 35%.

Schnorkel Activation
Raising/lowering Schnorkel times dramatically increased. Indicative of damaged, malfunctioning or sabotaged lifting mechanism. Schnorkel will still operate as normal once in upright position.

Attack Periscope
Water Blurred lens does not clear up requires use of observation scope as backup. Indicative of either shock damage or intentional damage to lens seals.

Rudder
Turn radius increased by 25%.Indicative of damage to steering mechanism or rudders mechanisms binding, incapable of turning fully left/right.

Many thanks to Jscones, Rubini, Gouldjg and a host of others for the advice, kind words and encouragement so far. The project requires a huge amount of testing and is still a ways off but so far everything is looking really good.
************************************************** ********
Malfunctions
All Type VII, IX &XXI's will be affected.

As the war progressed malfunctions and mechanical breakdowns all played a part in everyday life aboard a U Boat. Older boats long since their prime were kept in service. Complete refits or overhauls were constantly rescheduled or put off for as long as possible. Plain old wear and tear, shoddy maintainance and an increasing lack of spare parts all played a role in the gradual degredation in performance. Some problems were blatantly apparent during initial test dives requiring immediate return for further repairs while others were not noticed until the boat was far out to sea and had to be dealt with accordingly.
Similiar to the Sabotage mod some of the areas affected are:
Max speed.
Range
Dive times
Crash Depths
Periscope & Schnorkel performance
Some of the files from Sabotage will be crossed over directly while others
will be edited or fine tuned to be more of an irritant than a reason to turn
back to port.

Unlike the Sabotage mod which deals with the last months of the war this
"Malfunctions" component will start at the beginning of the war and gradually increase as the years progress. Using the random function in SH3 Commander older model boats such as the VIIB & IXB will be more prone to mechanical problems than the newer versions in the earlier years. By 1943 however wear and tear will begin affecting all U Boats equally. The type XXI's are an entirely different story and will be affected from their earliest entry dates. In truth the XXI's will probably be included in an update as I haven't even gotten around to editing them yet.

Individual file testing is nearly complete(except for the XXI) however the
random structure has yet to be built, this area actually requires the most time as it has to "feel" right and requires a huge amount of running and re-running identical scenarios. I need to get with Jscones regarding whether or not he wants to build Sabotage/Malfunctions into an updated version of Commander or if I should plan to release it using the Random folder structure.

Right now, thanks to Jscones & Commander random Thermal Layers is a
reality. Gouldjg's upcoming random "Chaos" mod (testing now and it really is something) plus random Sabotage/Malfunctions means that SHIII is a whole new ballgame. We now have the ability to come come up with a truly unique scenario with potentially hundreds of thousands of variables
guaranteeing that the player will never experience the same thing twice.
And I think we've only scratched the surface.
Stay tuned.

In addition to these there is also:
Flak Guns jamming after first clip fired
Radar effective range diminished.
XXI boat completed & included in Commander 2.6

[AG124]

This sounds like it could be good. :hmm: Keep us updated on your progress. :up:

[VonHelsching]

Excellent news! :up:

I hope this, along with Thermal Layers mod, will be the basis of a new concept for the game!

[Rubini]

Hemisent,

Check your PM again.

Rubini.

[Barkhorn1x]

Just my humble opinion here of course, but sometimes in a search for hardcore realism we lose sight of what makes a good game.

To be historically accurate in June of 1944 you would need to recreat a U-boat sailing and then being hunted mercilessly - and SUNK - by dedicated H/K groups before it gets a chance to do any damage.

As it is now things get tough - but the reality was an almost impossibilty of success.

For me an event like, "The system damage to the boat may not be discovered until you are well out to sea and may require the immediate return to base using extreme caution." would not be enjoyable.

But hey, to all of you masochists out there, ENJOY. :yep:

Barkhorn.

[AlanSmithee]

But hey, to all of you masochists out there, ENJOY. :yep:

At least half of the enjoyment of subsims is masochism. Why else would I spend hours crossing the Atlantic, only to fire torpedos that are duds at ships that don't seem to ever sink? :D

In any case, I'm looking forward to the mod. One question, though. You say that some sabotage won't be discovered until out at sea. How will the occurrance of the damage be delayed until then?

[HEMISENT]

In any case, I'm looking forward to the mod. One question, though. You say that some sabotage won't be discovered until out at sea. How will the occurrance of the damage be delayed until then?

Hi Alan
1. Limited top speed. you may not have any indications until you ask for Flank and the boat falls on its face.
2. Snorkel extension times up to 1hr-no more dive to snorkel depth and wait 10 seconds for the snort to raise up.
3. Limited e motor speeds.
4. Crash dive times increased

The edited files will exist from when you Launch SH3 thru Commander
You will only notice something is not right when you require a different speed or behavior or setting and find something is amiss. Usually this happens at the most inopportune time. Keep in mind this is "Random" and you will not be issued a "loaded" file by Commander each and every time.


Like the TL mod. Many aspects of it are very subtle. No bells and whistles going off. Once again the players at the upper edges of the realism scale will probably see the most benefit-it's something that may not be for everyone.

[Sailor Steve]

I like it. I'd like it if it was just "random breakdowns"; doesn't even have to be sabotage to make me happy.

[Salvadoreno]

well do the random breakdowns happen before 1944 as well?? Breakdowns were common, not as much as after June 1944 but they were still around. Mostly diesel problems are torpedoe tube malfunctions.. Can we see breakdowns before 1944 as well?

[HEMISENT]

well do the random breakdowns happen before 1944 as well?? Breakdowns were common, not as much as after June 1944 but they were still around. Mostly diesel problems are torpedoe tube malfunctions.. Can we see breakdowns before 1944 as well?

Right now I've only focused on the area between June 1944 and beyond
Random breakdowns or mechanical glitches is a possibility but I need to get the later war stuff working correctly first. If it works out as well as I think then changing dates on folders should be a simple task.
Right now it's all about ratios and testing. Too often and it's no fun-too seldom and you never see the benefit of installing it.

Gouldjg is working on something also that may be able to incorporate
that in too. He's dealing with dates from the begining of the war. I'll run it by him when he gets back.

[lafeeverted]

the possibility of "sabotage" or a random breakdown is a great addition. How it can be effectively incorporated and how each player chooses to deal with it remains to be seen. The randomization through SH3 commander enables the effect. As has been suggested for TL, save and reload after each battle to simulate changing sea conditions could also work here. You may discover a random breakdown/sabotage but it wouldn't neccesarily mean you would have to abort your patrol. Saving and reloading would again shuffle the files and possibly remove the problem but engage another. The time you as a player decided to live with the breakdown depends on your level of realism. Perhaps a guide would need to be written so that if a problem were repairable at sea you would be told how long that repair would take so that you would need to play out that period of game time before the save/reload.

This is a great idea, making it work within the limits of SH3 will be the challenge.

Perhaps a combination of the ability of SH3Gen and SH3 Cmndr could be combined. One program could organize and shuffle the random files as well as write to the patrol logs what damage has occured and how long it will take to fix. SH3 Gen recommends getting clear of home port before using its function(stationary ships sink other waypoint issues) it wold also work here in a sense that if you did reciecve a critical damage problem you would not be to far away to return to base. Writing the damage report to the patrol log would remove the surprise factor but you could also do that by running through your systems at the start of each patrol.

[Montbrun]

The time period 9/39-6ish/41 would be a good period to apply your MOD to for simulating the finicky engines at this time....

[gouldjg]

I can’t really work on anything solid as of yet, but soon I will be doing a varied Hollywood and Cfg files in a month or two. Anyone else should feel free to take this forward if they understand the principle and are not as tied down as i am with other business.

Simple things first and small steps to be safe is the best way to go.

Rule 1 = Pick a simple file such as cfg to start a beta

Rule 2 = Set a golden rule, mine is to start in increments of 3% up to max 20% plus or minus either way/stronger or weaker. Lets call it wear and tear and poor manufacturing as well as bad luck.

Rule 3 = Create the occasional special event i.e. rapid sinking effect etc etc. Different sinking style, different effects.

Rule 4 = Don’t go crazy as this could easily get out of hand. The reason the golden rule is only 20% is in case we then alter other stuff at a later date that could have a knock on effect i.e. guns, shell files.


I will probably just do about 50-100 variations of ship and sub damage via Hollywood or similar zones cfg as a base line. Would be best to see what GW produce and compare with NYGM and then find a middle ground base line.

(I actually think everyone could just contribute by picking a couple of things to adjust and as long as they do not exceed the golden rules of max 20% changes for the majority of things, everything will be fine but vary so no one game is the same.) Hollywood and combined Hollywoods as well as other peoples versions of the CFG could all be tweaked easily enough and yet still have great effects in game.

It’s the one of treats i.e. which require more work and planning.

The hopeful thing maybe is that SH3 commander may one day allow me to paste all variations in one text file as the zones is just a notepad file. A bit similar to the fatigue models. Then we maybe could just hit a randomise button and not know what has been loaded for that particular voyage.

Yes a very long file but worth it, I am sure. I cannot promise any random breakdowns but I can make certain systems more prone to severe damage/failure during DC attacks and it wont be repetitive and that’s the key. Imagine lining up your AA guns for the usual 3rd pass downing of a plane, only to find out it takes four or five passes or maybe just one pass.

This would be beautifully capped off if we can find the code that controls repair times and that is something that has eluded me from the beginning.


If this simple beta works, I ill probably move on to other stuff i.e. shells, DD sensors etc but this would need either sh3 commander or another more updated version of time travellers tools as well as the co-op of those whom know the areas.

Once a suitable test, readme and the tools are available I think we will see many varied files appearing i.e. random crew responces etc.

One could really go to town in their own little corner of expertise.

In the meantime think about it as it is just an idea at the moment.

I am waiting to see if GW and NYGM somehow get the ability to co-exists in a installation as I really do not want to be making a mod that has then got to be adjusted for other major mods(actually it does not really matter really as the other mods can just do it themselves for their setups). I am sure everyone will be busy for a while on the new big mods until then.

[gouldjg]

Just to add a further point to this.

If I or someone just copy a zones.cfg into excel format then surely I/they can do all the random variants a lot quicker e.g produce a formula that auto adds increments.

The same could be done with sim.cfgs etc

Then it is just a case of copying back into a cfg and deleting each column as i go to avoid duplication.

Ok lets get the big mods released and see where the baseline will be and

I will get a copy of zones cfg and create this unless someone is going to be faster i.e. better excel skills with formula and not so much a hectic lifestyle.

Yep it actually will be quite easy to do once It gets started.

Sry for spamming your thread Hemisent,

For a moment I forgot my web edicate, :oops: :oops: :oops:

[andy_311]

Would this Mod affect your mission?,ie coukd the problem be fixed while on patrol or would you have to abandon your assinment and return to base?

[HEMISENT]

Would this Mod affect your mission?,ie coukd the problem be fixed while on patrol or would you have to abandon your assinment and return to base?

Depending on the situation and which loaded file Commander issues some
files will require immediate return/no sense in continuing and some will be up to your discretion.

[HEMISENT]

All the affected files are completed and Random folder structure is beginning to go together. There was a problem a couple days ago where I couldn't get Commander to choose any of the Random folders containing Sabotage files. Turns out I screwed up the folder structure order. Rebuilt the whole thing from scratch and it's working fine so far.

I've run a number of tests using the IXC in single missions and I'm now starting to re-run a fresh campaign starting July 9 1944 departing from Bordeaux. For testing purposes I've built 12 Random folders and each one contains a loaded file that way I will pretty much get something chosen on each launch. I've also kept the 4 Thermal Layers activated to get a feel for how Commander deals with 2 different dated structures in the same chosen folder. Lots of fine tuning but really looks good so far.

Gouldjg, your idea about using Commander/Random to choose certain hard core damage settings is right on.

[Salvadoreno]

cant wait. With this mod we can definately tell what random folders were chosen. With the thermal layers im still not quite sure if i installed it right.

[gouldjg]

All the affected files are completed and Random folder structure is beginning to go together. There was a problem a couple days ago where I couldn't get Commander to choose any of the Random folders containing Sabotage files. Turns out I screwed up the folder structure order. Rebuilt the whole thing from scratch and it's working fine so far.

I've run a number of tests using the IXC in single missions and I'm now starting to re-run a fresh campaign starting July 9 1944 departing from Bordeaux. For testing purposes I've built 12 Random folders and each one contains a loaded file that way I will pretty much get something chosen on each launch. I've also kept the 4 Thermal Layers activated to get a feel for how Commander deals with 2 different dated structures in the same chosen folder. Lots of fine tuning but really looks good so far.

Gouldjg, your idea about using Commander/Random to choose certain hard core damage settings is right on.

Brilliant Hemisent
:up:

I am just waiting for a cool down and tracking yours and Jscones work in this area as it holds great potential.

The one thing about this, is that any mod in this area will probably be really small yet have great gameplay effects if sticking to zones.cfg and similar small files.

I tell you,

There is a lot left to learn about this games damage potential thats for sure.

I read Der teddys idea about the hovercraft effect being removed and that sounds so cool. Imagine, your engines get badly damaged and you slowly lose buoyancy whilst trying to repair :rock: :rock: :rock: .

Keep up the excellent work on your project as I am waiting eagerly.

You and Jscones have now become my chaos heroes. :up:

[HEMISENT]

cant wait. With this mod we can definately tell what random folders were chosen. With the thermal layers im still not quite sure if i installed it right.

Since it gets confusing I'm going to release this as a combined install with the Thermal Layers already installed. If someone doesn't want the thermals it's a whole lot easier to remove 4 folders than it is to add 40+ to an existing system.

Like Gouldjg said "CHAOS"

[iambecomelife]

Just wanted to say excellent work & concept. It's funny how in virtually all simulators you always control a sub, plane, or whatever that is in mint condition - even if you're serving with Germany or Japan late in the war, when the manufacturing base began to crumble. The player's vehicle should on occasion have the same flaws that historical servicemen dealt with.

About a year ago there was an interesting discussion about this same problem on a certain WWII aviation sim forum, but it degenerated into a flame war instead of producing something constructive. :roll:

[HEMISENT]

Funny you should mention this. I was just earlier in a PM to Jscones broaching the possibility of expanding the dates and maybe modifying things to include random mechanical breakdown or simply wear & tear.

First things first tho-get this up and running.

[HEMISENT]

Here's a sample of a campaign patrol report over a period of days
using the Random feature Save/Exit/Re-launch SHIII re-shuffles the files. Using a structure containing 12 random folders this pretty much assures that I get a loaded folder on every re-launch.
7/9/1944
22:31 Type IXC departs Bordeaux. Once clear of pens Air Raid alert is sounded. I order Flank speed to clear the area and allow evasive manuevering.
22:36 Incoming B 24 bombers sighted from the SE. AA defenses from harbor erupting all around. Numerous close explosions, a number of ships observed taking hits but the boat survives untouched. Continuing at high speed.
23:04 Radar Warning again from the SE. A second bombing raid on the pens
Flak gunners standing by. We are 11 or 12 km from the docks and all hell is breaking loose in the distance behind us. Multiple explosions, tracers and flares. Luckily the attackers pay no attention to us.
23:11 Chief informs me of difficulty with diesels we are only able to sustain 12-13 kts. He's working on it.
23:59 We are at the channel entrance altering course to 265deg. I order normal watch back to stations and reduce speed to 10kts.
Save/Exit/Re-launch
7/10/1944
00:11 I am informed that the mechanical problem with our diesels hopefully is solved. I order a gradual increase in speed. The engines are brought up in stages and ubfortunately things are worse than before. The best we can do is a mere 6kts. I order PD to avoid being caught on the surface like a wallowing pig.
02:00 The chief advises that we have a problem with the e motors as well. We are able to cruise confortably at 3-4kts but anything above that is not possible-the crew is working feverishly to locate and solve the problems.
04:51 We are travelling in calm seas so I bring the boat to schnorkel depth we might as well make sure this is working as without it we would be severely handicapped.
11:45 Aircraft sighting through observation scope Crash Dive! Maximum Speed Hard to Port! Machine gun fire is heard striking the upper structure. A single B 24 must have located our trail from the snort and strafes us. No serious damage to the boat.
Save/Exit/Re-launch
7/10/1944
13:00 The Chief has located the problem with the e motors and requests a gradual increase in speed to test. 7kts @ 290rpm's-all is apparently in order.
Speed reduced back to 3kts/depth to 25m. Course change to 235deg. We will head Southwest toward the Spanish coast.
Work continues on the diesels but those too should be back to normal. We will wait until dark to surface and bring them online.
21:00 Surface the boat. The diesels are engaged and load is gradually increased. 8kts is the best we can do. Serious consideration is being given to turning around if we cannot rectify this soon. Watch crew is ordered to maintain full alertness as we slowly plod along.
04:32 Seas are picking up engines are running perfectly up 7-8 kts then they fail miserably-fuel delivery system may require a complete rework. we will dive soon and the engine room crew will have another go at this.
7/11/1944
20:38 Surface the boat. Once more the engines are brought on line and we gradually increase the load..11kts then 12,13 and finally 14kts. Things are looking up. The chief has finally narrowed down the problems.
7/12/1944
00:47 we find ourselves approx 40-45 km from the Spanish coast which we will hug all the way to El Ferrol
04:28 Daylight approaching dive to 25m.
Save/Exit/Re-launch
20:04 Surface the boat to find heavy seas & rain. We should be somewhere between El Ferrol & Santander. Diesels functioning normally at last.
We will use the poor visibility to cover us as we head towards the Atlantic.
7/13/1944
10:42 Weather continues unchanged running west on surface at 12kts.Should be just north of the coast entering the Atlantic. All systems functioning properly.
23:50 Hdg 270deg. Have been able to run surfaced all day thanks to storm.
Save/Exit/Re-launch
7/14/1944
14:58 Course changed to 340deg. Navigator informs me that we are using excessive fuel. Either the fuel management sustem is still malfunctioning or we took damage to the fuel bunkers from the last air attack.
23:52 Arrived at assigned grid BE68
Save/Exit/Re-launch
7/15/1944
06:30 Surfaced 6kts. Patrolling assigned area. Heavy seas, lightening storm approaching from the west.All systems functioning as normal.
7/16/1944
19:28 Running surfaced 6kts Hdg 035deg. Aircraft sighted at last minute Crash dive. Upper structure once again takes minor damage. Depth charge explosions heard after we are safely under.

At this point I'm really pleased with how this is all coming together. Commander is also choosing thermal layers in the other set of dated folders. A few more tweaks and I'll be working on the addl empty folders which will give us the ratios. For that one I need Jscones' advice. If all goes well should be ready for initial release early-mid next week.

[gouldjg]

Now that sounds like a cool report.

Ones imagination can really get into that (mine can anyway). Hell I might even consider having a log book if the game goes down as good for me as it is for you :up: .

I find myself fully looking forward to this mod and if all works well I am going to call you Sir Hemisent :rotfl:

Now if you could just add maybe one or two random damage hp files for the sub, nothing fancy, just something to show the capability.

I will call you king

:rock: :rock: :rock:

I wonder how jscones is geting on??

p.s. super work Hemisnt

[HEMISENT]

Now if you could just add maybe one or two random damage hp files for the sub, nothing fancy, just something to show the capability.


Jason
never messed with those as you were always involved in damage modelling. Perhaps once this is wrapped we can put something together?
I like your idea of a random absolute chaos file or two. Maybe a 1 in 30 chance or something way out there. Got to think on this one a bit.

[gouldjg]

Have sent you a PM.

I was just hinting lol. :D


Anyway don't let that stop your current work which should be your number one aim. :up: :up: :up:

I want this feature up and running for when I return to the game, so I can test for you maybe monday or tuesday if a freind borrows me his copy of the game. I had to bin my copy as it is major distraction when I get busy with job and study. :(


Anyway damage should wait as too many things going on with that subject though it would have been nice if NYGM or GW teams looked deeply at this subject a saw the benefits it could bring to their mods.

I believe Der Teddy and Observer are doing some fantastic work on damage and maybe adding a new feature, but imagine if they or GW added your work and random damage.

WOW is all I could say

[Salvadoreno]

Hem after reading your report it seems that after save/quit/reload the old problems still stick with you. Am i right? If you made that possible that would be amazing!!! Didnt seem like the save/quite/reload fixed the problems, and it even picked out some other things to do wrong (i.e e-motors). WOW

[HEMISENT]

Hem after reading your report it seems that after save/quit/reload the old problems still stick with you. Am i right? If you made that possible that would be amazing!!! Didnt seem like the save/quite/reload fixed the problems, and it even picked out some other things to do wrong (i.e e-motors). WOW

Actually occasionally Commander/Random will choose the same folder twice in a row. I think it even did it three times once testing the TL mod. In this case tho there are a number of files that are similiar yet just different enough to let you know something happened plus there are a couple files that are loaded with 2 sets of problems like the reduced diesel along with the reduced e motors speeds. I'm trying to find the right balance and not get ridiculous here. The interesting thing is that just because the player knows he can "save/exit/relaunch" and magically get that particular problem repaired he may in fact re launch himself into something a whole lot worse.

Gouldjg has come up with a concept dealing with a randomized absolute chaos file where just about anything could be thrown your way. That's also in the works but I need to wait till he gets back to his desk in a week or so to help test it.

Stay Tuned...Jscones brilliant Random function is just starting to get interesting.

[gouldjg]

Damn I just spent 10 min writing long post about all this and now I have lost it :damn: :damn: :damn: .

Hemisent

I wanted to point you to the "whats happening with sh3 commander" Jscones has the tool in testing right now. It looks really promising now.

I then waffled about how good it is that one cannot really cheat as they could end up worse :up: life was like that.

I then was considering doing a Hollywood chaos mod on top of your thermal layers, sabotage and ideally the new NYGM Damage model der teddy is making. Just wanted to know what files/figures not to touch?

I then went on to say that rather than me rushing down a road of building up a file when NYGM are working on something not yet released, maybe it is time to ask them what they think and what possible gains/benfits or problems they forsee with their future works if one wants a combination of all three.

I would hate it if thease features had to wait to go on top of new damage mod as I know that there is some considerable work to be done in the zones.cfg alone. There is no way I want to have to do it again to please users of a new model.

I would ideally want a decent and compatible NYGM damage, thermal layer, sabotage base and then work on that.

Heres to hoping

[andy_311]

Will this work with GW?

[HEMISENT]

Just wanted to know what files/figures not to touch?

I would ideally want a decent and compatible NYGM damage, thermal layer, sabotage base and then work on that.


Jason, the only files that are touched are:
NSS_Uboat7c,9b,9c,9d2 Sim (speed/range/turn/dive time)
NSS_Uboat7c,9b,9c,9d2 CFG (crash dive-I just added this tonight)
Sensor.Sim(schnorkel)
Camera.dat(attack scope)
I know Jscones is working on inserting thermals in Commander itself-Outstanding-I'm really honored!

Don't know if any of the other guys besides Rubini is interested in this but there really shouldn't be a problem converting to work with NYGM,GW etc. The values are all known & tested-converting is the easy part.

Update!
Right now I'm just finishing the second stack of random folders as I write this. 26 out of 52 completed.
Starting 6/7/44 you have a 25% chance of suffering sabotage. Starting 8/1/44(the month all the french bases were lost) chances increased 33%.
and starting 1/1/45 50% odds you will get a loaded file.

Andy11-I don't see why not you just need SH3 Commander.

[JonZ]

I just can't wait SHCommander now :nope:

[JScones]

Hemisent, I've just re-read the PM you sent me which outlined your thoughts on the sabotage/malfunction approach. This is gonna be great. It will mean that taking a "test dive" just out of port will actually be an important test, and not just a routine formality!

One thought though, there prolly doesn't need to be a distinction between sabotage and malfunction. I think the changes can just be labelled as "malfunctions", albeit caused either by general wear, poor maintenance, or those danged French... Of course, the proportion of malfunctions caused by sabotage increases later in the war, but the end result is essentially the same.

I suppose though, if people wanted distinct separation you could release the mod in two parts - one set up based on general malfunctioning ratios and covering the entire war, and the second one that superimposes a layer reflecting the "extra likelihood" caused by sabotage, increasing as the war progresses?

Anyway, I'd be keen to see what values you change in what files, as "Simulate full base events" and "Equipment malfunctions" options have been on my SH3Cmdr to-do list since you raised it quite a while ago.

Like the Thermal Layers mod, there may be a way to add this kind of functionality to a data file that SH3Cmdr dynamically picks up (it may even work with the new randomised event functionality, although I prolly would prefer to keep it isolated as a separate component).

[HEMISENT]

Jscones
Thanks for all the encouragement.
I just finished 52 Random folders containing 13 individual "events"
my ratios so far are:
6/7/44
the first 13 out of 52 folders = 4:1 odds
8/1/44
26 (duplicated the first 13)out of 52 folders = 2:1 odds
1/1/45
39(duplicated the first 13 again)out of 52 folders = 1:3 odds

I'll be testing this over the weekend. Plus Gouldjg gave me a couple ideas I'm kicking around.
I could really use your thoughts on these ratios.
I want to see how the whole thing plays out before I expand to earlier dates for "malfunctions/breakdowns "

[JScones]

OK. Let's assume 52 folders for the entire war.

Now, this is simply guess work, I can't speak authoritively, but using a "gut feel" approach...

EXCLUDING SABOTAGE:
9/39 to 12/39 I'd prolly have 13 folders populated primarily with engine failure related malfunctions (25%)
1/40 to 6/40 perhaps lower to 10 folders (20%)
7/40 to 12/43 perhaps lower to 8 folders (15%)
1/44 to 12/44 perhaps increase up to 10 folders (20%)
1/45 to 6/45 perhaps increase up to 13 folders (25%)

OVERLAY SABOTAGE:
6/44 to 7/44 add 3 extra folders (takes up to 25%)
8/44 to 12/44 add 7 extra folders (takes up to 33%)
1/45 to 6/45 add 13 extra folders (takes up to 50%)

Assumption: That at least 75% of malfunctions do not result in mission abortion. The game still needs to have balance!

Anyone is welcome to chip in and fine tune...

[VonHelsching]

Hemisent,

It just struck me while preparing the Real Battery Life (AKA Advanced NASA Battery Fix) version for Grey Wolves...

I believe that batteries especially if under-maintained later in the war should provide a lot lower than the nominal underwater ranges.

In sabotages / malfunctions, the batteries might give less than 20% of the amps they were supposed to. I believe this might be an excellent addition to the Sabotage mod. If required, I can provide some percentages and actual underwater ranges to simulate damaged / sabotaged batteries.

Imagine getting out of St. Nazaire in 1943 at dusk, slowly head to the English Channel in order not to attract planes and make your first crash dive after a DD has spotted you with the radar, only to realise that you have 20% of your undewater range with a flank speed of 4 knots...and after some hours of depth charging, you are starting to creep at 2 knots...

What do you think?

[GT182]

VH, I'd be thinking yer boat and crew is in deep doo doo. ;)

Hem, if it's just simple repairs to get your boat going again, will the repair crew do the repairs and be able to do them as in RL?

[HEMISENT]

I believe that batteries especially if under-maintained later in the war should provide a lot lower than the nominal underwater ranges.

In sabotages / malfunctions, the batteries might give less than 20% of the amps they were supposed to. I believe this might be an excellent addition to the Sabotage mod. If required, I can provide some percentages and actual underwater ranges to simulate damaged / sabotaged batteries.


Actually I've already got a file relating to this. For now I've got it labeled simply e motor range. I reduced the default by 50% and figured that would add a little concern on the part of a captain. But in actual testing
I found I could still run nearly forever at the slowest speeds. Perhaps I could retain this 50% file and add another with a total reduction of around 80% as you are thinking.
The problem is that there are sooo many areas that can be either mildy disabled or completely crippled that the Random folder structure grows by leaps and bounds. Right now I've got 13 loaded files and I figured there's room for one or two more before my brain turns to silly putty.
Let me run some tests and actually see how your 20% capacity plays out.
Thanks

[VonHelsching]

VH, I'd be thinking yer boat and crew is in deep doo doo. ;)

Hem, if it's just simple repairs to get your boat going again, will the repair crew do the repairs and be able to do them as in RL?

No. The idea Hemisent is working involves the creation of an un-repairable handicap in the beginning of each mission.

[GT182]

Gotchya on that VH. Thanks

[gouldjg]

Hemisent

Can you or anyone else think of anyway to add the possibility of faster oxygen comsumption whilst under attack.

What part of the sub deals with the oxygen? I have either never looked at it or it is not possible to manipulate this.

I dont even know what happens when you run out of air in this game?

[VonHelsching]

Hemisent

Can you or anyone else think of anyway to add the possibility of faster oxygen comsumption whilst under attack.

What part of the sub deals with the oxygen? I have either never looked at it or it is not possible to manipulate this.

I dont even know what happens when you run out of air in this game?

That's a good idea...(about the consuption rate)

I messed a lot with batteries, so I know what happens without oxygen: Instant death :shifty:

[HEMISENT]

Hemisent

Can you or anyone else think of anyway to add the possibility of faster oxygen comsumption whilst under attack.

What part of the sub deals with the oxygen? I have either never looked at it or it is not possible to manipulate this.

I dont even know what happens when you run out of air in this game?
Good question, I have not run into it but then again I wasn't looking for it either. Will see what I can find. Who Knows?

[HEMISENT]

Update.
Finally finished random testing and just polishing things up a bit.
I settled on utilizing 52 Random folders which gives a nice balance to the whole thing.
As previously stated dates/percentages are:
June 7 1944 for a 25% chance
Oct 1 1944 for a 50% chance
Jan 1 1945 for a 75% chance
For those unfamiliar with Random, the percentages listed are only rough guides. For example, on a test campaign mission starting July 44 I went thru 6 seperate save/exit/launches before I was issued a loaded folder, I was actually beginning to think something was wrong then I received 3 in a row.
Currently playing out a fresh campaign mission dated Jan 45 with a IXD2 out of Flensburg. First 2 days of patrol I have re-launched 3 times and have gotten 3 loaded files in a row. There are no absolutes using Commander/Random

Types VIIC + all Type IX's affected

Systems affected:
Diesel & Elect max speed
Indicative of malfunction or sabotage prohibiting eng or E motors from attaining their maxinum speed potential. Possible sabotage to clutching/transmission components allowing engines/motors to achieve desired RPM but shafts themselves are not turning the correct RPM to produce required speed.

Diesel Range
Indicative of either leaking fuel tanks or engine fuel management system using excessive amounts of diesel to achieve desired performance.

E Motors Range
Indicative of worn out used batteries installed in place of fresh units on refit or
sabotage to existing batteries. Batteries are able to charge as normal but do not hold the charge as long as specifications require.

Dive times increased
Simulating faulty or sabotaged valves or manifolds.
Reduced the amount/rate of incoming water required to rid the boat of bouyancy. This increases the standard & crash dive times by 25 - 35%.

Schnorkel Activation
Raising/lowering Schnorkel times dramatically increased. Indicative of damaged, malfunctioning or sabotaged lifting mechanism. Schnorkel will still operate as normal once in upright position.

Attack Periscope
Water Blurred lens does not clear up requires use of observation scope as backup. Indicative of either shock damage or intentional damage to lens seals.

Rudder
Turn radius increased by 25%.Indicative of damage to steering mechanism or rudder mechanisms binding, incapable of turning fully left/right.

Crash Dive.
Depth changed from default to less than 30m.

There are a number of areas that are still being looked into including an additional battery malfunction recommended by VonHelsching.
Also I need feedback from players who are familiar with Random and have used it in the past. This is a work in progress and just because I personally like a given setting it may not be to everyone else's taste.

************************************************** *******
Once all the dust settles I plan on introducing the "Malfunction" component
backing out dates to beginning of the war.
This involves not only modifying a few files but once again working with a given number of folders to achieve a balance.

[Salvadoreno]

this is gonna be released with the next SH3 Commander correct? SO we dont have to manually put in each folder? Cant waiit!!! Spring Break is coming up and after mexico, its 1939 Germany! :)

[HEMISENT]

this is gonna be released with the next SH3 Commander correct? SO we dont have to manually put in each folder? Cant waiit!!! Spring Break is coming up and after mexico, its 1939 Germany! :)

No decision made yet on SH3 Commander but hopefully in a future release. Once any bugs are ironed out I'll be adding the next phase which is random malfunctions/breakdowns/wear & tear. I kind of think that Jscones will be looking at the whole package to avoid duplication of efforts. Haven't really gotten that far yet

The Thermal Layers mod should be releasing in the newest Commander-I'm testing for Jscones now and so far it works like a dream. That's why I did not include TL component in Sabotage release.

No reason to install folder by folder-this includes the entire Random structure for easy insertion-just copy/paste into Commander.

[JScones]

this is gonna be released with the next SH3 Commander correct? SO we dont have to manually put in each folder? Cant waiit!!! Spring Break is coming up and after mexico, its 1939 Germany! :)
In its current format its release is totally SH3Cmdr independant. That is, Hemisent can zip it up preserving the Random folder structure and anyone could then d/l it and extract it straight into SH3Cmdr, exactly the same as they do with the Combined Ship Skins add-on.

[JCWolf]

Heminset, you've done it again... :up:


One question does it come along with the thermal Layers on JSCOnes SH3 Commander new release??? :rock:

[HEMISENT]

Heminset, you've done it again... :up:


One question does it come along with the thermal Layers on JSCOnes SH3 Commander new release??? :rock:

Due to Thermal Layers being included in Jscones' upcoming SH3 Commander 2.5 release I did not include the thermal layers files in Sabotage.
If you are already using TL and want to retain them until Commander 2.5 release just copy/paste the five 1939 TL loaded folders into folders 0-4, 13-17,26-30 and 40-44. This will give you the same basic percentages.

When Commander comes out simply delete the TL data folder.

I tested this out before we were sure of the Commander inclusion and it works just fine.

[JCWolf]

Thanks H. :up:

[HEMISENT]

Looking for feedback from users. Would like to solve any problems before
moving on to next step.

[AlanSmithee]

I may have to start a late-war campaign just to try this out. Otherwise, looks like I'll just have to wait until the random malfunction version is complete...

[Nedlam]

Looking for feedback from users. Would like to solve any problems before
moving on to next step.

I'm going to try it out soon. Just so I know I'm doing it right. I can basically take the Random folder I DL and let it overwrite what is in Sub commander, right?

Looking forward to this.

[HEMISENT]

I'm going to try it out soon. Just so I know I'm doing it right. I can basically take the Random folder I DL and let it overwrite what is in Sub commander, right?

Looking forward to this.

yes, backup your existing Random folder, copy/paste directly into SH3 Commander-it will over ride your existing Random folder and you're all set.

[Das Boots]

just wondering if this mod is still being worked on i thought that it was included in the new sh3 commander but i could be mistaken any way i have installed it and my first patrol i think it was sometime in sept of 44 i had a reduced flank speed of 16-17 knots that flucated. i really enjoyed this because it greatly gives more realism to the game> I was in the us army for 4 years my mos was 11-mike and i assure you that almost every time we went out on a field problem those damn bradleys broke one way or another! is there a update in the near future?????

[JScones]

Hey Hemisent, is this still happening? This mod is one of the few incentives left for me to get another SH3Cmdr release built! ;)

[JScones]

Here's how I am thinking this could be added to SH3Cmdr. I am focussing on the general "Equipment Malfunction" aspect as opposed to damage caused by Sabotage.

[SETUP]
NbSystems=9 <-refers to the list of systems that can be damaged
MaxSystemsAffected=1 <-Max number of systems damaged at any one time. Actual number of systems affected will be between 0 and this number.
0=DieselMaxSpeed <-the system.points to section name following this block
1=ElecMaxSpeed
2=DieselRange
3=ElecRange
4=DiveTime
5=Schnorkel
6=AttackPeriscope
7=Rudder
8=CrashDive

[DieselMaxSpeed]
Probability=<1939>|<1940>|<1941>|<1942>|<1943>|<1944>|<1945> <- As % of 100, ie "20|15|15|15|15|20|25"
IIA=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>*
IID=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
IXB=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
IXC=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
IXC/40=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
IXD2=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
VIIB=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
VIIC=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
VIIC/41=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
VIIC/42=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>
XXI=<FileName>|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key>|<% of default value>

[ElecMaxSpeed]
...

* % of default value can be less than or greater than 1, ie 0.9 for 90% (decrease) or 1.1 for 110% (increase). Whatever value is already in the game will be used as the base value (for consistency).

Hemisent, how does this sound? Can you see any holes with this logic when comparing with how you've done it?

[HEMISENT]

Jscones.
Sabotage mod up and running works better than advertized unfortunately I've rcvd absolutely zero feedback from users so you'll have to take my word for it. I'm currently working on malfunctions component as we discussed earlier.

Please explain how dates work in your setup? I'm not quite understanding this as sabotage works after a given date then escalates rapidly whereas malfunctions/wear and tear start out from the beginning and escalate gradually.

[JScones]

Sabotage mod up and running works better than advertized unfortunately I've rcvd absolutely zero feedback from users so you'll have to take my word for it.
Your word is good enough for me! :up:

Please explain how dates work in your setup? I'm not quite understanding this as sabotage works after a given date then escalates rapidly whereas malfunctions/wear and tear start out from the beginning and escalate gradually.
Well, I see there being two separate components to the damage mod. An equipment malfunction component and a sabotage component which is layered over the top.

The equipment malfunction component runs the course of the war and reflects equipment condition - either usual wear and tear or poor maintenance. My example above bases this per year, but I can't see why it couldn't go to the level of month and year (ie "193909_20|194001_15|194006_12|" etc etc).

To incorporate the sabotage layer, considering it's still the same components being damaged, just raise the probability figures from 194406 on. For example, looking at the DieselMaxSpeed, you could have:

Probability=193909_20|194001_15|194406_30

This simplistic example provides a 20% possibility of diesel engine damage between the beginning of the war and the end of 1939. From Jan 40 through May 44 there's a 15% possiblity of damage and from Jun 44 the probability is 30%.

We could go down to the day level, but I don't think that is necessary...do you?

Anyway, I hope this explanation is clear. Let me know if not.

[HEMISENT]

Jscones
I get it now. Can I build a structure similiar to Gouldjg's for testing or do I need to build an entire Random folder structure? I will be using a combination of binary and text files eg; NSS_Uboat7c CFG file & Sim file.
There will be about 12-13 individual "Malfunctions" per boat same as sabotage.

Check the first page for an update report.

[JScones]

Nah, just follow the example above. SH3Cmdr will pick up via the "|<Offset> OR <Section>^<Key|" value whether the file is binary or text.

For example:

[DieselMaxSpeed]
Probability=193909_20|194001_15|194406_30
IIA=data\Submarine\NSS_Uboat2A\NSS_Uboat2A.sim|x04 8C|.9
IID=etc

will adjust the Diesel Propulsion max_speed value for the IIA to somewhere between 90% and 100% of the game value (ie 13 with GW).

One note, I had a look at your mod and I don't think changing the crush depth via the .cfg file works - I think it needs to be changed via the .zon file.

[HEMISENT]

One note, I had a look at your mod and I don't think changing the crush depth via the .cfg file works - I think it needs to be changed via the .zon file.

This section deals with the"crash dive depth"
Imagine you have to order an emergency crash dive, all hell is breaking loose you are faced with a number of immediate challenges and you expect your boat to level off at the default depth of 70m...but it doesn't, a valve sticks, something breaks, etc the first indication is that you hear creaks and groans then your crew announces your approaching critical depth at flank speed. I've tested this and it definately adds to the pucker factor.

[JScones]

Oh, crAsh depth, not crUsh depth...I understand... :doh:

[HEMISENT]

Just an update on the status of the Sabotage/Malfunctions mod.
As of now pretty much all the Malfunction files have been written and are
being tested using Jscones' SH3 Commander. There is no longer a need for the Random folder structure using the new built in randomization capabilities of Commander itself.

Files Affected are:
Ahead Standard, Full & Flank have all been reduced to gradually build up
speed as normal but the max speed attainable is reduced by around 20%
depending on the boat

Diesel Range is reduced between 20 & 60% indicating a fuel bunker leak,
malfunctioning fuel injection system or excessively worn engine.

E Motor Speed reduced similiar to diesel

E Motor Range reduced between 20 & 80% indicative of worn out batteries, electrical system malfunctions or worn E motors excessive draw.

Dive Time increased to simulate worn out manifolds, valves and other
mechanical components needed to flood the tanks and rid the boat of
bouyancy.

Crash Depth randomized to simulate boat taking on too much water or even stuck dive planes and unable to level at proscribed depth.

Periscope view is blurred-time to clear is randomized indicating worn seals or battle damage.

Attack Periscope zoom inoperative simulates mechanical switching
mechanism stuck in position-may require using observation scope.

Schnorkel extend and retract times randomized to simulate
malfunctioning/binding components.

So far this is what has been completed. I've got a few ideas for some additional areas but for the most part it's done. I have not touched the
Type II's or XXI's yet-those will be in an update.

I believe Jscones is working on an updated Commander version that will
allow date specific randomization to occur but for right now these malfunction occurances will have the same odds throughout the war.

Testing is starting probably tomorrow to get a feel for percentages but right now I'm thinking of somewhere around 20-30%.

I'm open to any ideas of additional systems that can be affected.

Cheers!

[Salvadoreno]

Crash Depth randomized to simulate boat taking on too much water or even stuck dive planes and unable to level at proscribed depth.



NICE i sense a lot of Das Boot moments!! "STERN PLANES STUCK SIR!!!" "EMERGENCY BACK".. "BOAT NOT RESPONDING!!"
"BLOW BALLAST?"

woooohooo i cant wait@!! Now this mod is the random malfunction mod that takes place throughout the war right? Not only after 1944.. Woot this mod is a godsend! When will this be released? With the next Sh3 commandeR?

[gouldjg]

Really looking forward to it Hemisent :up: :up:

[HEMISENT]

NICE i sense a lot of Das Boot moments!! "STERN PLANES STUCK SIR!!!" "EMERGENCY BACK".. "BOAT NOT RESPONDING!!"
"BLOW BALLAST?"

woooohooo i cant wait@!! Now this mod is the random malfunction mod that takes place throughout the war right? Not only after 1944.. Woot this mod is a godsend! When will this be released? With the next Sh3 commandeR?

Release may be as early as next week if testing works out but it will be a copy/paste type of thing similiar to Gouldjg's. Once I'm happy with things I'll get the completed files to Jscones for his review, after that we'll see what the Commander brings.

This simulates mechanical breakdowns, malfunctions, wear and tear and starts from the beginning of the war right thru to the end. Until Jscones is able to modify Commander for Date Specific percentages the odds will be the same from beginning to end. My Sabotage mod relies on dates so for now that will be kept as is in a Random folder structure. However when Commander is accepting dates I'll package them all together. The malfunctions files are just toned down sabotage files.

One thing, I am reading a book about the XXI boats and these were so plagued by problems I'm thinking of doing their files but reversing the percentages, something like 70 - 80% chance of multiple malfunctions.
I've got a few ideas for those boats when I get there.

[JScones]

In the meantime, you could build a workaround to get year specific percentages.

Build a file for each year of the war, and just ask that SH3Cmdr users rename the relevant year file to the default file name. That is, if their career is in 1941, they can rename your "Randomised events_1941.cfg" file to "Randomised events.cfg" and SH3Cmdr will pick it up until they replace it with the 1942 file and so on.

Just a suggestion.

BTW, I won't start building the U-boat malfunctions feature until I see your file - so that I can get a good feel for how I should set it up.

[Sailor Steve]

I had a chance to look them over yesterday, and I would rather see smaller percentages over more years, with more specific results:

Instead of 'Max spd 11 knts' I would rather see 'Port Diesel broken down' or 'Radar broken', with a chance at repair.

[HEMISENT]

In the meantime, you could build a workaround to get year specific percentages.

Build a file for each year of the war, and just ask that SH3Cmdr users rename the relevant year file to the default file name. That is, if their career is in 1941, they can rename your "Randomised events_1941.cfg" file to "Randomised events.cfg" and SH3Cmdr will pick it up until they replace it with the 1942 file and so on.
Just a suggestion..

Sorry, it's been a long day.
So, if I understand correctly I take all the malfunctions files, figure the odds for a given year say 1939 and name it "Randomised events_1939.cfg" The player would then take that file and manually place it in Commander renaming it "Randomised events.cfg. I do this for each year and the player then changes it for whatever year he's actually in.
Brilliant workaround.


BTW, I won't start building the U-boat malfunctions feature until I see your file - so that I can get a good feel for how I should set it up.

After I'm satisfied with the testing I had hoped you would look at the whole package and advise of any problems or discrepencies similiar to what we went thru with the Thermal files.

[HEMISENT]

I had a chance to look them over yesterday, and I would rather see smaller percentages over more years, with more specific results:

Instead of 'Max spd 11 knts' I would rather see 'Port Diesel broken down' or 'Radar broken', with a chance at repair.

Hi Steve, I assume your talking about the sabotage files. I would love to be able to completely disable one engine or the other but right now I have no clue how this would be accomplished. The best I can do is limit the performance of certain systems. As for the radar going kaput I think that can be accomplished.

[JScones]

I don't think that you can damage any component in a way which can be repaired from within the game.

If you change the equipment settings prior to loading SH3, then SH3 will treat them as the stock settings - it doesn't know that the VIIC max diesel speed should be x, not y which you have subsequently set it to. The value y becomes the "base" value that SH3 uses. Any adjustment to that value from *within* the game (ie caused by DD damage) results in damaged equipment which can be repaired, because the new value is different than the base value, ie y. Is this explanation clear?

Conversely, you can "destroy" the equipment prior to loading SH3, but then it's destroyed and can't be fixed at all.

[raymond6751]

Great ideas. Here is my take on the concept.

A programmer can easily use a random number generator to choose which lines in any file to alter and by how much.

Instead of having different folders, why not let the player launch the mod (like the random weather mod) before setting out on a mission.

He will then have altered files and won't know the true limits nor problems that he will encounter on that patrol.

The difficult thing will be how to notify him when one of the modified lines of a .cfg file is used. For instance, max depth change would be a bad discovery under attack. That might show up in test dives en route to patrol area - as leaking reported.

I personally would not use any mod that requires multiple sets of folders on my system. Modify one or two files, with backup of originals - OK. There are just too many ways things can go bad and ruin the whole install.

[raymond6751]

Big thank you for working on this idea. I have felt that having systems 100 percent until enemy action damaged it was totally unrealistic.

I have a problem with the multiple folders idea though.

What if, using SH Commander to launch, a date check were made to determine the date in the scenario loading? Another file, generated by your mod via Commander when the mission started, contains details of when certain lines in certain files get altered.

Commander has the ability to launch messages to the player before loading the game, so the captain can get notified. I am thinking in terms of reducing or increasing the crew recovery rate in certain compartments to simulate illness. Systems can be damaged and the message indicating breakdown. For instance, I got a message from Commander that my starboard engine was destroyed. (in port!)

Obviously something works in that Commander mod already to do what I suggested, but I think the message should have been 'engine malfunction needing shore based assistance'.

If such things could be date related, maybe number of days on patrol, the event could happen at sea instead of port.

How would it look? My stbd engine was totally damaged on the repair screen. Other systems, like torpedo tubes, flooding, radios, and radar/sonar could be affected.

Non-equipment problems like sickness can be reflected in lowering the morale or effeciency.

My main point is the timed effect handled by Commander.

[JScones]

A programmer can easily use a random number generator to choose which lines in any file to alter and by how much.

Instead of having different folders, why not let the player launch the mod (like the random weather mod) before setting out on a mission.

He will then have altered files and won't know the true limits nor problems that he will encounter on that patrol.
Let me summarise the last four pages for you:

-Hemisent currently has a sabotage mod which utilises SH3Cmdr's Random folders feature. A random set of damage settings are selected and copied into SH3 each time SH3 is launched via SH3Cmdr. The player is oblivious to what has been damaged until they find it during the patrol.

-Hemisent is re-writing the mod using SH3Cmdr's new "Randomised events" function - no more Random folders and no more "hard coded" random settings.

-I am adding a module to SH3Cmdr to specifically handle U-boat malfunctions, including sabotage events. This will provide even more flexibility than the randomised events functionality.

More info can be found on pages 1 through 4.

Commander has the ability to launch messages to the player before loading the game, so the captain can get notified. I am thinking in terms of reducing or increasing the crew recovery rate in certain compartments to simulate illness. Systems can be damaged and the message indicating breakdown. For instance, I got a message from Commander that my starboard engine was destroyed. (in port!). Obviously something works in that Commander mod already to do what I suggested, but I think the message should have been 'engine malfunction needing shore based assistance'.
:roll: This message is not related to any sabotage mod. It is a bug elsewhere which SH3Cmdr highlighted. There is a workaround posted on this forum. It has been raised MANY times here in the last two weeks.

If such things could be date related, maybe number of days on patrol, the event could happen at sea instead of port.
Not possible. You can not spawn random sub damage (or basically change any settings) whilst on patrol. The associated files are loaded at startup - the variables remain in memory until the game is exited (either completing a patrol or by saving and exiting). We've all struggled with this limitation since day one.

Anyway, more importantly, I have absolutely NO intention of telling players at any time during their patrol that x, y and z are damaged. Kinda defeats the purpose don't you think???

[raymond6751]

I don't think that you can damage any component in a way which can be repaired from within the game.

If you change the equipment settings prior to loading SH3, then SH3 will treat them as the stock settings - it doesn't know that the VIIC max diesel speed should be x, not y which you have subsequently set it to. The value y becomes the "base" value that SH3 uses. Any adjustment to that value from *within* the game (ie caused by DD damage) results in damaged equipment which can be repaired, because the new value is different than the base value, ie y. Is this explanation clear?

Conversely, you can "destroy" the equipment prior to loading SH3, but then it's destroyed and can't be fixed at all.

But....if you save a mission while your sub has some damage, that damage returns when you load it next. Maybe the key is to hack the saved game files to modify damage setting without changing the defaults??? Just a thought.

Perhaps, like the crew fatigue issue, damage or efficiency of compartments can be altered by date or time. For instance, the randomize system (whatever) determines that the port diesel should be damaged 5 days after start of mission...the config file is altered then to reflect it on loading up. On loading up on days subsequent to that, the config file can be re-altered to reflect repairs.

What I mean is, if there is to be 3 days of repair work on that engine, the thing remains damaged until then with appropriate messages to the captain.

[JScones]

You're going over old ground. Hacking into the .sav file has been tried by me and TimeTraveler (the expert on these things) months ago. If we could crack it, we'd have perfect Milk Cows (well, with SH3Cmdr anyway).

As I've stated before, the game cannot recognise damage at startup. Equipment is either fully functioning or fully destroyed. Hell, you can't even adjust the Hull Integrity value - it simply changes back to 100%. And there is no way to tell SH3 to "damage x at y days into the patrol". The game just ain't written that way. Damage can only occur via an in-game event.

Increasing effects of damage could be simulated though, by setting HitPoints to lower values or whatever, but again the damage will only occur after an event of some description - getting hit by depth charges, running into a sandbar whatever. Another alternative is to write any random value to any random binary file at any offset. That could cause any element of random results...but it's not an overly robust solution.

Believe me, if any of this was possible it would have been done by now, if not by me then definitely by others.

[Sailor Steve]

I DO understand that. I don't like it, but I understand it. Even SHII had random engine breakdowns which could then be repaired after hours of cruising at a very slow speed.

But, as you say, some things are hardcoded into the game. I remember TimeTraveller's readme from the 'BigWaves' mod, about how he got the winds to go all the way up to 45 m/s, but then any time he saved and reloaded they defaulted back to 15 m/s, so he finally had to settle for playing with the wave heights.

Anything you guys can do to make it better is fine with me (not that that makes any difference). I'm just happy to have the experience get better and better.

[HEMISENT]

Update-kind of long.
Added flak guns reload times increased to simulate jamming/stoppage caused by long periods of exposure to salt water, mechanical malfunctions or poor quality ammunition which was more apt to happen in later years.

Trim control is now a potential problem as boat rides heavy at stern. Depth keeping at slow speeds may prove a bit difficult. Tower tends to broach easily on calm seas.

Radars max range drastically decreased from 50% down to 1500m. Radar
was a new technology and prone to break down due to fragile equipment,
poor or incorrect maintainance or damage. (Sailor Steve request)

This is Campaign Patrol Report using combined Malfuntions/Sabotage files

Aug 14 1944 Brest
17:21 Depart bunker in an older typeVIIB U-48. Boat is supposedly
refurbished and returned to service from training command. My Chief Engineer is not impressed and refers to it as a fossil. 250 meters from the pens my RWR detects incoming radar signals from the North. Air Attack! Ahead Flank! All flak guns manned gunners to fire at will.
A flight of 6 B 24 Bombers in level flight are sighted as guns all around explode into action. Our boat gradually gains enough speed to manuever as a small freighter takes a direct hit not 500m away. The waters all around us erupt as we turn one way then another.

17:31 Raid is over, speed reduced to 9kts to clear the confines of the harbor. We overtake our escort which has sustained minor damage. So far so good.

18:00 Reduce speed to allow escort to overtake us. We need safe passage thru the nets and mines.

18:17 We are approaching the entrance to the channel on station 500m behind our guide.

19:36 Escort bids us farewell-we are on our own. Course set SSE to grid
CE54.

20:15 Aircraft sighted approaching from North. Crash Dive! Explosions rock the boat but no damage done, level at 60m.

20:19 The Chief informs me there may be a problem with the E motors.
Sound contact brg 332 long range slow speed screws. I order course atered to investigate.

20:30 At periscope depth. Lens takes too long to clear up-possibility that the seals were damaged from the recent attack. Finally a small German cargo ship comes into view. Ship is on fire and barely making way. I order the boat surfaced.

20:32 No sooner do the lookouts get to their stations than they are shouting of approaching aircraft. Crash Dive! A pair of Sunderlands appear from nowhere One directly ahead making an attack run on the merchant and the other right off our stern. He was as surprised as we were.

20:34 Explosions in the distance-The freighter is taking quite a pounding.

20:42 At periscope depth..The freighter is visible hdg North on fire smoking heavily tracer fire heading upwards. 2 aircraft are visible using spotlights as daylight fades. Nothing can be done-I order a return to course.

21:22 Surface the boat, Ahead Flank! We need to exit the area and head
toward deeper water.The Chief once again informs me of a new problem, the diesels have apparently seen better days and have difficulty with anything above 10-12 kts. He's assures me that his men are doing everything possible to coax more speed out of the relic. Speed reduced to 9kts to reduce the strain.

Aug 15 1944
02:04 Hdg SSE, Radar detects incoming aircraft at extremely close range. No time to dive Flak guns open up as we are bathed in brilliant light. Cannon fire tears thru upper structure killing both gunners instantly. Crash Dive!

02:16 Boat levels off at 70m. The diesel engine compartment is damaged in the attack and repairs commence immediately.

10:08 We've been down 8 hours now and air is getting a bit stale we will use the recently installed snort to run on diesels and ventilate the boat. The Chief is eager to test the diesels.

10:20 At schnorkel depth, raise observation scope, raise the snort. We have been detected by chance as tremendous explosions rock the boat. Heavy damage is reported to all compartments aft of fwd torpedo room.Crash Dive to escape. Damage reports continue to come in. At 60m the stern is heavy from flooding we realize the boat is headed downward and I order Blow Ballast/Ahead Flank to arrest our descent.

10:29 The boat is stabilized at 20m but we must maintain a higher speed which is draining the batteries. The pumps continue on rear compartments. We have heavy structural damage to the port side from the rear battery compartment aft. The Chief estimates our structural integrity to be under 50% I order a course set to take us home. The forward batteries are functional, aft batteries are offline-estimated repair time 19 minutes. The port diesel is destroyed, The snort is jammed in a partially raised position, everything in the conning tower is
either destroyed or heavily damaged including both periscopes.

10:37 Pumps have finally shut down-all flooding is secured. Speed is reduced to 4kts to maintain trim. We hear distant explosions behind us. I am informed that our fuel is down to 25%, we must have a massive fuel leak. The crew is attempting to raise the snort.

11:00 The rear batteries are once again online.

12:34 The crew has raised the snort and the boat is brought to proper depth. Without the periscopes it is extremely hazardous as we are coming up blind but we need to ventilate the boat plus the Chief is eager to test his one remaining diesel. We will make a short test run.

13:00 Both the schnorkel and the diesel are functioning properly. We put a little charge back in the batteries and head back to 20m until dark.

20:58 We surface the boat to heavy seas and rain, welcome cover from allied air patrols. I order 8kts from the stbd engine. Repair crews ordered to the conning tower.

21:10 RWR and observation periscope are once more operational altho the scope takes an extremely long time to clear up, at least we are not totally blind. The radio antennea and attack periscope are destroyed as are both flak guns.

03:54 We are approaching our minefield area-with no escort and poor visibility we will take it very slow and trust to the charts.

04:50 Approaching the narrows, speed increased to 8kts. This is a bad place to be caught by enemy aircraft with no room to manuever.

05:15 Harbor lights barely visible thru overcast.

05:25 A destroyer appears out of the haze, speed reduced to 5kts as we make our way to the safety of the pens.

All completed Malfunction files sent to Jscones for his review with potential of including into updated SH3 Commander.
Testing continues to determine percentages.

[JScones]

Thanks Hemisent. I've got your files. I've been a bit ill over the last few days so haven't yet given them my full attention. But I will. It's all sounding great though.

[Vader 1]

You are the man!!! I thought I was reading an section from "Iron Coffins"
excellent work sir.
Vader

[HEMISENT]

Thanks Hemisent. I've got your files. I've been a bit ill over the last few days so haven't yet given them my full attention. But I will. It's all sounding great though.

Great, as long as you got them intact. Hope you're feeling better soon.
Just PM'd you my e mail address.

FYI. I'm playing out 1 campaign mission for each type boat affected just to get an overall feel for how these edited settings actually affect gameplay vs looking good on paper. So far looking good.
I really think that your date activated randomization will be the way to go-
I really would like to bundle the Sabotage files all together
I'm looking forward to it.

[HEMISENT]

Update
All Malfunctions files completed and tested.
All Sabotage files completed and tested.
TypeXXI malfunctions included.
Testing with pre release version of Jscones' SH3 Commander which now has a month and year specific randomized events capability. At the moment I'm merging both sets of files so as to be recognized by Commander. Unsure as of yet if they will be included in Commander's upcoming release such as the Thermal Layers function or if they'll be offered as a standard mod. In that regard it's up to Jscones and his schedule.

In any event the release is right around the corner.

Cheers!

[Salvadoreno]

aw hem release them with SH3 commander for us computer illiterates who get nervous replacing the random folder and losing information.. Sh3 Commander is comming out soon anyway, let it be with all your releases so we can have a nice smooooth sh3 commander that i would simply LOVE. I cant wait for your random malfunctions mod, i loved the sabotage mod, thermal layers i never quite understood but i have it. lol. Anyway thx!

Oh did u update the first page?? Thx again!!!

[HEMISENT]

aw hem release them with SH3 commander for us computer illiterates who get nervous replacing the random folder and losing information.. Sh3 Commander is comming out soon anyway, let it be with all your releases so we can have a nice smooooth sh3 commander that i would simply LOVE. I cant wait for your random malfunctions mod,

I believe that's what Jscones is looking into. That's why I'm re-writing the files to make them Commander friendly. Whether they are included or not is strictly up to him. Providing of course I can get them to him soon as possible.

The whole purpose behind all this delay (at least in my case)was to make the random functions a lot less of a chore for people to use.


i loved the sabotage mod, thermal layers i never quite understood but i have it. lol. Anyway thx!


What don't you understand about TL?

[Uber Gruber]

Hopefully they will be offered as part of next SH3Commander release and that this will be in time for WaWII launch.

hopefully.... :|\

[HEMISENT]

Hopefully they will be offered as part of next SH3Commander release and that this will be in time for WaWII launch.

hopefully.... :|\

Yeah, that would be great.
Right now I've got all the generic files switched along with the Type VIIB & C. Ill be doing the IX"s tonight.
I want to send him the individual Sabotage files plus the merged set so he can choose which ever he wants to use.

[Salvadoreno]

Im sorry but Sh3 2.5 has Malfunction/Sabotage files in random folder right??

[JScones]

Only if you d/l Hemisent's mod from the first post. It has been totally revamped for SH3Cmdr R2.6 and will not utilise the Random folder structure.

[HEMISENT]

For those new people who are blaming SH3 Commander for causing errors, unexplained or never before experienced malfunctions please see the first post.