Germany to outlaw the Qur'an?

[Skybird]

And this one about a story in germany. Interestingly, all German medias that I scan by routine ignore it.

Germany to outlaw the Qur'an?

from: Dhimmi Watch

A translation of this Jyllands Posten article, "The Quran reported to the Police" is here, with thanks to all who sent this in.

A broad alliance of grass-roots movements have gone to the prosecutors of several states to hinder the dissemination of the Quran. According to the indictment, the Quran is not just a religious and historic book, but also a political book, which is incompatible with the constiution.
At the prosecutor’s office at Gorch-Forck-Wall 15 in Hamburg, an unusual letter was received Monday morning, containing an indictment filed this weekend. The indictment targeted the Quran, charging that the holy book of the Moslems, according to the accuser, is incompatible with the German constitution.

The accuser is “Bundesverband der Bürgerbewegungen (BVB)”, which concerns itself with, in its own words, “defending basic rights and freedoms” against Islam. The extensive international furore, allegedly caused by the Muhammed cartoons, has made clear the relevancy of the alliance. Its homepage is decorated with a Danish flag with the words “Support Denmark! Defend the Free World.” superimposed on it.

The indictment has been filed in several states, including Hamburg, Niedersachsen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Bayern and probably more.

In several talkshows on German TV, conservative politicians have pointed out that the Quran is incompatible with the German constitution. The Turkish-born writer Serap Cileli said on January 29 this year that “the Quran must be considered a historic document. It is not compatible with our constitution and Human Rights.”

Now the alliance wants the matter tried at the courts.

Potent Political Book
The author of the indictment in Hamburg, Jutta Starke, says that the Quran was reported to the police two or three years ago, but that the report was dismissed on the grounds that it was a book of only historical interest.

“The events of the last months have made clear that the Quran isn’t just a historical book, but very much a potent political book, a thing which we document extensively in the indictment,” Jutta Starke says.

She says it is a task of sisyphean dimensions to inform the media, politicians and churches of the true intentions of Islam in the enlightened world of the West.

“We are grateful to Jyllands-Posten that discussions about Islam have now become possible,” says Jutta Starke....



I wish they would be successful, but I know better. Politcal correctness does not stop at courthouses' doors.

[Sixpack]

Why waste time on endless 'defense of values' at all ? .......

I have always thought attack is the best defense, why not in this case :hulk:

Let us now remember the suffering of Lady Liberty

.

http://michael.ellerman.id.au/misc/comic3.jpg

[Dan D]

Come on, Tankmaster-san ;) , that was pretty lame.
I guess, only rule-loving “Germans” with authoritarian thinking can come up with such strange ideas. :smug:
One can come to a reasonable decision all by oneself with some experience and with common sense.
For the experience part, one could for example take a look at the history of prohibition (ban of booze) and its failure. Experience says, you can’t enforce rules on people ignoring them. Rules need to be backed by the people willing to follow them because they find them convincing. Even convicted criminals agree that criminals in some cases should be send to prison, even though they don't like it for themselves. Rules that are hovering in free space unconnected to the people, die out soon or later.
Prohibition also had a fallacy involved: “Booze damages “people’s” health. Therefore it is dangerous, expensive and must be banned.”
Booze damages “some people’s” health, of those who abuse it. Others can enjoy themselves with booze and don’t come down with it.
Common sense does not necessarily tell you what is right or wrong and what should be done but to think within reasons certainly helps within the decision making process.

To practise common sense, there is nothing better than to study the old masters, the ancient Greek logicans. They are unsuspicious because they never even heard of “political correctness” and its extremes like speech codes and sensitivity training etc., when sometimes rules go too far and prohibit legitimate debates on sensitive subjects.

Those strange people dressed in black coats, who are hanging around in places like “courts” to practise very old rituals, some of them even wear wigs made of horse-hair and call the other part "my Lordship", actually pass on -or try to- the ultra-secret knowledge of common sense from generation to generation of new disciples of their kind for some thousand years now. That makes them conservatives, but in a non-political sense. "Political correctness? What is that?" :88)

Here comes an example: the famous ancient Greek “crocodile - conclusion”.
It is said that Chrysipp wrote 6 books about it and Philetas lost his mind. :-j
So, one should think this through with utmost caution :)

“Mother saves her baby from crocodile-or not?”
A crocodile snatches a baby from its mother and pledges to give the baby back to her, if she can tell the truth about what is going to happen with her baby.
The mother says: “You won’t give my baby back to me.”
The crocodile replies: “Either you said the truth or not. If you said the truth, then -you said it yourself!- I am not to give the baby back to you. But if you did not say the truth, then you won’t get the baby back, because of the contract we made.
The mother replies: “Far from it! I get my baby back in either case. If I said the truth, you have to give it back to me because of the contract we made. If I did not tell the truth, you have to give it back to me more than ever, because otherwise I have said the truth after all.”
:ping:
On a more practical side: What if, the crocodile refuses to give the baby back? Then you need the crocodile police to haunt the crocodile down so it can be given appropriate treatment.

[Abraham]

Skybird & Sixpack, I side with Dan D on this issue.
The Koran is clearly a religious source, whatever you think of it. Furthermore the Koran is explained and it's lessons adapted by millions of Muslims in a personal and non-violent way.
Outlawing the Koran would be a sign of weakness, apart from being:
1) a violation of international treaties;
2) completely impractical to implement.

@ Skybird:
I remember you attacking US policies in the War on Terror for being impractical a year ago, "because Al Qaida has become an idea"(quote from memory). If that was your opinion then, Skybird, how would you implement any ban on the Koran?
@ Sixpack:
Thanks for the great picture.
By the way, our basic human values are agressive in Muslim eyes as they are. They tend to corrupt the real believers. Keeping them alive is the best form of warfare...

[Skybird]

It'S becasue of certain laws and privileges an ideology can take sheltering benenfit from if it is rules out to be a political, but is rated exclusively as a religious idea. That is why Scientology was pushing so hard years ago to be recognized as a religion. It is also about tax refunds for religious groups (I fail to see why Christian tax payers should pay for such reliefs, of a foreign and hostile ideology that is taking advantage from that). Islam is both: political AND religiously. currnetly it is treated to be only the latter. This is what it is about. If it is decided (it will not be, they are all afraid) that is it not only a religious thing, thenit becomes easier to protect non-Islamic interests against Islam. So far it can almost charge in full speed, with any obstacles to hit getting rushed away.

[Sixpack]

Darn, are we still discussing the nature of Islam among ourselves here ?!

Isnt it bloody clear by now ?

[STEED]

Darn, are we still discussing the nature of Islam among ourselves here ?!

Isnt it bloody clear by now ?

Yes

But for the rest?

[AntEater]

This BDB is some kind of rather obscure NGO, I wonder how they ever managed to get to the headlines.

[Skybird]

It is some kind of a "Dachverband" . Anyway, their chances are small. not because of legal situation, but the pressure for politically correct sentence is enormous. PC means: do not question Islam.

But I would like to see this one being successful. First time that officially it would be recognized, that Islam is not only a religion, but a political organization and ideology as well. most Westerners - and many Muslims - are not aware of this, and the implications within our socieits, due to the separation we keep between religion and politics. An ideology that does not keep these things separate, can easily bypass many constitutional self protection mechanisms, and this is what currently happens.

Sixpack,
Abraham just came back after a long absence. Thus he did not realize that this thread already had fallen asleep.