Dodging D's

[legion78]

Was hoping you could give a new guy some insight. Had some questions about dealing with destroyers.

1. At what distance can they see you during the day with decent weather and at night? Ballpark figure of course.

2. At what distance should I go reduce speed to prevent them from hearing me with hydrophones?

3. At what range can they ping me?

Lost my first boat to depth charges tonight and just couldn't seem to shake him. July 1940. AN16 near Scapa.

I guess i'm looking for a basic strategy to deal with them. Some of your basic bread and butter moves would help me out greatly. Whats the first thing you guys like to do for instance, and some general manuevers.

This guy pinged the crap out of me. So I figured full speed knuckle since he knows where I am anyways. Try to put some distance between us and go silent at the end of his attack run. Seemed I would be in the clear for awhile but then he would pick me up again, rinse, repeat until I died. Any help in this area would be appreciated as right now i'm just kinda shootin from the hip and trying my best not to freak out.

[Graafenstein]

I'm really not sure and my estimations comes from playing only 1 career:

1. I would say same as you can see them, minus a few hundred meters because of the fact that a sub has less height above the surface.

2. I adjust my speed in accordance to speed hotkey numbers times distance of 1000 meters:
1(ahead slow)x1000=1000, 2(one third)x1000=2000....5(ahead flank)x1000=5000

3. I think within a 1000 meters, but the distance increases through the years.

Maybe some of the more experienced kaleun's can add their thoughts?

[Inajira]

IMHO would never chance Ahead Flank at 5000m from a destroyer (am I reading you right?).

Anyway never underestimate the power of depth under your keel... "run silent, run deep". I always try to make sure I have at least enough depth under keel to go to crush depth while evading a destroyer. They seem to have a harder time determining my depth (lots of depth charges exploding above me) than determining my general location. And I figure why set speed to 1 knot with a destroyer close by when the noise made by the screws is going to far offset any advantage gained by moving slightly away (1 knot being really slow of course)?

I try to attack a convoy by suprise, dive fast and deep as possible and then wait it out, silent running is a must and All Stop as much as possible. As the destroyer wanders off I may then start to go to a slow speed to further confuse his fix on me. Even better if he uses up all his depth charges with poor shots.

"Why run? You'll only die tired."

[Von Hinten]

This is from a beginning captain so if this sounds odd to anyone, please feel free to tell me. I'm still learning how to uboot so to speak.

I use about the same tactics as Inajira but instead of diving and wait I tend to dive hard and fast and try to get underneath the convoy so the destroyers have to zig zag in between them. That usually works to get rid of them, although of course this work better with larger convoys.

When it doesn't work and they are still on to me I go as deep as possible in normal silent running while keeping in mind the state of my hull. Normally my VIIB should be able to 'do' 100 meters without any problems but when the hull is damaged it's safer to stay higher.

I find going too slow dangerous since I can't accelerate that fast and when the depth charges are getting close, the D's get lucky sometimes too, I just can't get away or turn or dive deeper or whatever. I like keeping a couple of knots in speed for reserve.

[U-Dog]

IIRC alot of AN16 is quite shallow, when searching I always try to plan my route to stay in the deepest water possible- when clear of enemy vessels I check depth & write down the time as well so i have atleast an idea of where the bottom is. Shallow waters are scary if you're not an Ace.

Also don't think anyone has mentioned keeping your bow or preferably tail pointed at the DD whenever possible. Remember you can't outrun a destroyer but you can hide from him. "Depth charges in the water" is a good time to run you engines a bit if you want to, though if they aren;t close you don't need to do anything.

Indeed sometimes doing nothing at all is the best plan, but it's only natural to want to do something. Fight the urge, silent and sneaky is a good motto.

Good luck!

[Inajira]

I find going too slow dangerous since I can't accelerate that fast and when the depth charges are getting close, the D's get lucky sometimes too, I just can't get away or turn or dive deeper or whatever. I like keeping a couple of knots in speed for reserve.

This is cat and mouse, and the sub is of course the mouse. Never think you're the cat, by the way, unless the destroyer has no idea you're there yet.

In any case its a lot of fun to sit really deep with the hull creaking all around you, depth charges exploding nearby and all, particularly when you're playing "Dead is Dead" and you know if that destroyer gets in a lucky shot, you're going down with the ship. Most adrenalin I've had with a PC game in a while!

Anyway I think moving is a bad idea, but perhaps someone with more experience can share just what the game effects on detection are when you start to move.

[Von Hinten]

I agree that the sub is the mouse, and also that starting to move when laying still is giving more away than you'd probably like. But when I go deep and don't stop moving I have so far see the destroyers loose me quite often.

But like you I'd absolutely like to hear from a experienced sub commander what the technically best method is, and please with a 'why' to it. :)

when clear of enemy vessels I check depth
That was another thing I was wondering. Do they hear us checking depth? It sounds like some sort of ping of course, but can the destroyers pick that up as well and use it against us?

[Sailor Steve]

Yes, the can hear your echo sounding.

[legion78]

Thanx for all your help guys, the input is appreciated. Little details like this are a lot of help. Many aspects of this game are confusing for a beginner.

1. Warship contact long range, is that under 20k? What about medium ect... As of now whenever I get a warship contact I tend to go silent but would like to stay at full speed until I'm forced to slow down.

Anymore help is appreciated.

[Inajira]

Long range contacts are 20-30k. Don't know the exact ranges for medium and short. All my medium contacts have been visible provided its not foggy. Short range well thats breathing down my neck which makes it quite tense under heavy fog :huh:

[bsalyers]

In my type IX-D2, late 1943, I recently got to hound a large convoy over several hundred kilometers as it worked it's way north from Gibraltar. I attacked 4 times, each time sinking ships, until I ran out of eels.
I used the same tactic each time, getting directly in their path, then hovering at 50 meters, silent running, engines off. As they approached, I waited until the lead escorts passed, the floated up to periscope depth and began my attacks. The last time, a DD passed over the top of my bow so close I could see his hull through my submerged periscope!
If you are completely quiet, they won't even ping you until it's too late. Your best bet to avoid attacks, IMHO, is to avoid ever being located in the first place; don't let their hydrophone guy acquire you. Go full- speed if you must to get depth, but go to ahead slow and silent running ASAP. Also NEVER ask your hydrophone operator for approximate range to targets; it's the same as pinging them.

[Inajira]

Also NEVER ask your hydrophone operator for approximate range to targets; it's the same as pinging them.

I am inclined to say no, I think its just an estimate based on passive listening to the loudness of the screws. I thought that the only time you're pinging is when you're using the echometer to determine depth. Can anyone confirm this??

[Von Hinten]

I am inclined to say no, I think its just an estimate based on passive listening to the loudness of the screws. I thought that the only time you're pinging is when you're using the echometer to determine depth. Can anyone confirm this??
But that's just when he listens. If my memory serves me well you can only ask a range when you have sonar installed, and that one could make some detectable sound I reckon.

[bsalyers]

I'm afraid I speak from sad experience. I also always thought that asking for an estimate of range to contact was the equivalent of asking for the hydrophone man's best guess, and I use to wonder why escorts would suddenly start pinging for no apparent reason as a convoy approached. Other players set me straight on this. If you have any doubt, test it. When I was asking for range estimates in 1941, I briefly lost interest in the game because I literally could not ambush a convoy without being detected. After I learned about this little peculiarity, I was able to lie within feet of a destroyer and they had no idea I was there - and that was in late 1943.
I actually think it's an example of poor modelling on the designers' part. If asking for info is the same as pinging, you should hear a ping, just as you do when you ask for depth under keel. It also makes no sense to have two different buttons under your active sonar, one for precise range to target and one for approximate range, that both do exactly the same thing but with slightly different results.
I don't even have active sonar on my IXD-2. It's now mid-1944 and I'm enjoying the best sneak attacks I've been able to do in my whole career.

[Sailor Steve]

Also NEVER ask your hydrophone operator for approximate range to targets; it's the same as pinging them.

I am inclined to say no, I think its just an estimate based on passive listening to the loudness of the screws. I thought that the only time you're pinging is when you're using the echometer to determine depth. Can anyone confirm this??
Later boats get active sonar. At that point you can ping them, as well as them pinging you. Then it's a dead (sometimes literally) giveaway.

[Keelbuster]

Evading escorts later in the war is TRICKY. I have only experienced a few late-war convoy attacks (because life is fleeting in those months), and they are scary as hell.

Often I get detected by escorts before I even attack - they make a solid ring around the convoy, and have a way of picking you up even if you are stopped. I'm not sure how they do this, because they are not using an active 'ping', and i can only guess that it is some high-frequency close-range active sonar that cannot be heard. Anyway, they find you and they come looking for you. I was forced to start attacking from 2nm away - no more of the drift-into-the-convoy tactics. In late 44, early 45, if you attack, they know where it came from and come after you. They can easily pick you up on active sonar, and they will slowly close with you. One of them will ping, and one will listen, and then they start doing the DC runs. There's no good solution. Depth is good, but you can no longer get underneath their sonar cone.

Decoys work - sort of. The way to escape is to wait till they are right on top of you, and then pick a direction that they will scan _last_ in the next sonar sweep. Set a course so that your rear end will face their heads when they finally turn to your direction on the next sweep, and order flank bell. Then pop decoys. If you are lucky, one escort will stay to play with the decoy while the other tracks you. Another such move may stick the remaining escort to the new decoy. You can eventually peel off a whole attacking force if you are very very lucky. Otherwise, they can just DC you all night until you finally crack, go to PD, and try to take them out.

Basically, in the later war, attack from a great distance - fire in pattern running torps and get out before they hit. Don't get picked up by escorts because there is very little hope if you do.

Finally, the most important difference between a relatively safe attack and suicide is the WEATHER. In clear weather with calm seas, sonar and acoustics are great and they WILL FIND YOU and won't lose you. IN bad weather - i.e. high seas, but no fog, you can attack and use the ambient noise to mask your escape. I'm not sure how realistic it is, but the difference between an attack in clear weather and one in rough sea is night and day.

KB