SH3 still top thanks to Starforce/ All SF post here

[Sonarman]

Read this story at least the dreaded Starforce has one thing going for it, it's tough to crack... story here (http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?c=83&id=818)

Our worst enemy may turn out to be an ally after all if the extra revenue has swung the decision on making SH4!

[Sailor Steve]

Don't know about StarForce one way or t'other, but I'm glad to hear everyone's favorite WWII subsim is doing well.

[Fishmachine]

Nah, the game sells better, because now it's price is quite low, comparing to starting point, and also most of the new (cheap) computers will run it smoothly. Not to mention, that it's a piece of a good game ;)

Besides - the game's already cracked.

[CCIP]

I wouldn't trust an article from StarForce to be objective about StarForce, because StarForce is notorious for really bad PR practices. Along with ridiculing customers and outright lying. Not that this makes them different from many other companies, including even UbiSoft themselves.

That said, whatever the reason (and I don't think it's Starforce), it's great that SHIII is selling well. I think it's just because it's an excellent game after all :up:

[Sonarman]

Yeah, you are probably right their marketing machine taking credit for
the game's own popularity.

[Ducimus]

In a word. No, starforce is nothing to be thankful for. nor would i give it credit for boosting SH3 sales. Cracks for Starforce as it pertains to SH3 do exist.

[Crop-Duster]

Now read this about Star Farce:

"Posted Sun January 08 2006 16:23
Let me start by saying I am a developer and a Webmaster of a number of major Game related sites.

I have 25 years experience in the Business thus I make very sure that I have fully researched what I comment about. My credentials precede me, I do not agree with or endorse software piracy. However to play my existing Starforce games I have had to crack them.

Issues concerning Starforce.

1. They are based in Moscow so exempt from a number of the laws that we in the West rely upon. The 3rd Party Companies that use their copy protection are not exempt.

2. In Windows XP Starforce gives Ring 0 (super user level access) to Ring 3 (Standard users). In normal English this basically means that any third party application such as Trojans or Viruses are given the ability to have full access the both software and hardware.

3. As many of you will be aware XP does have DMA/IDE issue that’s dates back to its creation. In which if packets are lost during the reading or writing of a disk. XP interprets this as an error and steps the IDE speed down. Eventually it will revert to 16bit compatibility mode rendering a CD/DVD writer virtually unusable. In some circumstances certain drives cannot cope with this mode and it results in physical hardware failure (Most commonly in multiformat CD/DVD writer drives). A sure sign of this step down occurring is that the burn speeds will get slower and slower (no matter what speed you select to burn at). Starforce on a regular basis triggers this silent step down. Until it reaches the latter stages most peeps do not even realise it is happening.

Excluding the Hardware failure, the normal way to cure this is to uninstall all the CD/DVD drivers and the Primary/Secondary IDE controllers. (Then reboot). If you did not know about Starforce, you can now be faced with another problem. Normally windows searches and reinstalls the drivers. However with Starforce present this can cause the system to either fail to find the hardware or fail to find the drivers. Creating the illusion that the hardware has failed.

This gets even worse if you have SCSI hardware/virtual drives. SCSI virtual printer driver (basically any SCSI hardware/Virtual drivers present) As these may have to be removed before the other hardware becomes visible.

4. Because Starforce are aware of these issues (Including the Trojan Gateway) this is exempt from the EULA and could be deemed as "Gaining access with malicious intent". Not only would starforce be liable, but also the 3rd party company that endorsed/used that application.

Ubisoft really need to do themselves a favour and dump Starforce. They have earned their quotas on the existing titles. So there is no reason not to make full bypasses available in a legit format.

An example of my system using Starforce from a Ubisoft Game. My Athlon 64Bit 3200+ Clawhammer started running like its components where stuck on treacle, My Burn proof DVD writers created more coasters than they use at a state banquet and overall it was about as stable as a one legged man in a hurricane.

It's not my intention to put the industry out of business (They are achieving that under their own steam), however using so called copy protection that is nothing more than a glorified Trojan Gateway is not the way to stay in business.

Trojan Gateway:
I do not make such a comment lightly and I have proof of this occurring and of exploits already using it. I have openly challenged Starforce to prove otherwise and their response was not to comment or to refer to the EULA (As if the EULA exempted them from installing malicious software). Although to be fair technically Starforce is not malicious, it just leaves the door wide open for software that is.

In my professional capacity I am aware that a number of corporations that had been previously flexible about staff playing games during normal breaks. Now ban the usage of any 3rd party Games in the work place (Because of the Starforce security issues). Also a number of us who review games are now refusing to touch any games protected by Starforce as we are not prepared to compromise our system stability and security anymore.

So basically if us reviewers will not handle them and the customers are now boycotting them. How exactly do Ubisoft intend to continue to sell games? "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also see here:
http://www.glop.org/starforce/

[U-4053]

I recently had a Moderator jump on me about posting where to go to get a No DVD fix for The Starforce reading issue at game start up, so you may want to be carful what you post about it as some take it seriously about pirating, although it is not piracy to fix a game that you already own, AND PAID FOR!

II too echo your sentiments about the Piracy Issues, but this Starforce is something , never before have I seen so many problems with a game purchased off the shelf in the time I have been doing online SIMs.

Sounds Like A revolution needs to come about again to boycot this Star Force issue.
I wish I had the Links to the Articls but I didnt feel the need to save them, there was a great write up on the UBI forums about the same issues you are echoing here.
It is allowing your Computer to be accesed by who ever?
In America we are suspicious of Uncle Sam, in Europe who knows what gives you folks the willies ?
But it sure sounds like someone wants a back door to check to see what you are up to and whats going on where they don't belong.

Don't get me started on Piracy issues, with ove 20 years in Law enforcement I have never seen one of these case go to court.
There seems to be a lack of interest in them amongst the legal community.
All you hear is Hype About the 80 year old grandma in Michigan who is under investigation for music piracy , what they don't tell you is when grandma gets her attorney involved it becomes a pool of Sludge and the Music companies are sent away empty handed .

But again another time another horror story .
I agree with most of what you are saying. And something should be done, but what ?
Do we stop purchasing anything that has Starforce in it?
If we do that we could potentially be missing alot of nice Games which are comming, but we could also be opening ourselves up to who knows what ?.

Beware of Greeks Bearing gifts.

[rogerbo]

Just to informe you, the SH3 was online with crack about 2 weeks after being released to the Stores, the latest crack for patch 1.4 is already long time available to. So cool down Stareforce is no wonder tool anymore as they claime. So the success of SH3 is in my opinion based on the quality of the game and as above stated because of the lower price now and i dear to say because of this wonder ful Mod comunity which makes this game what it is, one of the best Sims ever which is worth every cent we've payd for it.

[U-4053]

HERE HERE !

<golf clap>

[Dowly]

Read this story at least the dreaded Starforce has one thing going for it, it's tough to crack... story here (http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?c=83&id=818)

Our worst enemy may turn out to be an ally after all if the extra revenue has swung the decision on making SH4!

I´ve seen new games with starforce protection, being available on download in few days after the release. Starforce is like trying to cure a minor flesh wound on your leg by amputating the whole thing, nothing good to say about it. :nope:

[Sonarman]

"I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him;
The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interréd with their bones"

Note that I did use the word "dreaded" in my original post I hate it as much as you guys. Installing SH3 caused my new PC to go to a "blue screen of death" each reboot which can only be cleared by going to safe-mode and back out again.

Although... I had no problems whatsoever with the similarly Starforce enabled Enigma Rising Tide and Virtual Skipper III which were installed months prior to SH3. Maybe there is something wrong with the implementation of SF in SH3 or the version used is unstable?

I agree that something needs to be done about piracy and perhaps the best solution is to cut the high street shops out of the loop and sell direct to the public. That way prices could be reduced: (shops and distribution take about 70% of a games retail value), the games could be constantly updated and grow, licenses could be monitored and illegal usage stopped at source.

But... I'm not sure we are ready for that yet, we still like our printed manuals, box and cd to much to let go of them and are still a bit paranoid about companies going belly up (see all the worries about Distant Guns). Then there is the issue of all those people working in all those stores, do we really just can them like that?

There are two sides to every story... our lives are full of dilemma!

[Farside]

Nah, the game sells better, because now it's price is quite low, comparing to starting point, and also most of the new (cheap) computers will run it smoothly. Not to mention, that it's a piece of a good game ;)

Besides - the game's already cracked.

starting point? i got it for £20 when it first came out. not THAT expensive, well, i mean i've seen games more pricey

[Sonarman]

Farside wrote:
starting point? i got it for £20 when it first came out. not THAT expensive, well, i mean i've seen games more pricey

Yes I paid about £20 as well, much cheaper than the £45 I paid for the original Silent Hunter on it's release. Software prices in the UK were driven down thanks firstly to the mail order companies in the gaming mags then of course by internet retailers.

[Mowgli]

Read this story at least the dreaded Starforce has one thing going for it, it's tough to crack... story here (http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?c=83&id=818)

Our worst enemy may turn out to be an ally after all if the extra revenue has swung the decision on making SH4!

I think it is more a case of Silent Hunter III being a success DESPITE Starforce.

I bought SH3 and the problems I had when I purchased the game have been resolved. Should another game come out that I really want, and should the publishers be stupid enough to include Starforce in its release, then I shall just look for another game or wait until the Starforce problem is "fixed". I shall then buy a copy and tailor the game to suit.

[joea]

<Edit - Gizzmoe>

I buy all my games and got SH3 cause it's good.

[U-4053]

Man!

I paid 40 Bucks for my copy of SH III !

I wanna Shop where you guys go !


Charlie

[kiwi_2005]

Yes, gpstore (gameplanet) in New Zealand SH3 is on the Top 10 selling list, no other subsim has ever made it on the Top 10 selling list in NZ, AOTD came close. But alot of gamers that have never played a sub game are buying SH3.

[DMarkwick]

Well I would have bought SH3 on the day of release, as it was I waitied 6 months before I was sure I could play the game Starforce free before buying it. By then it was a third of it's original price, so from my POV Starforce harmed it's sales figures, not helped.

I do not believe that pirates buy the games they cannot crack.

-----------------------
**Good, then they don't play games they cannot crack, either. --NS***

[Vonotto]

Ok Ok I have to play devils advocate here.......I did have trouble with 2 games that have starforce SH3 and X3. I went to the starforce home page and the forums and posted my problem running the games (both were posted at seperate times (months apart) and on both counts I recieved a reply from the staff that fixed both problems within 2 hours of posting.

So I may not like starforce but I can not jump on the "bashing wagon".

[GT182]

Vonotto, glad you're not having problems. But be careful, S-F can and maybe will bite you in the future when you least expect it. As it did to me after 8 months with my dvd burner.

Search and you'll find more about it.... here in this section and in the General Topics section.

I wouldn't read too much in what Starforce says in it's forums, they're only blowing their own horn to make themselves look good. Believe me, they're not good at all.

Don't get me wrong... I love SHIII. It's just the "malware" that UBI used to protect it that makes most of us mad as all h*ll.

[Soulcommander]

The above link by the thread starter is coming from a company that is obvious biased and trying to take credit for a game just because they provided copy protection for it.

Silent Hunter III although a great game in some peoples minds did not fair that well.
Take a look at this article: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/06/17/bargain.games/

As far as the copy protection is concerned, the game was cracked shortly after it's release. Although not many cared about that as we purchased the game.
You may ask yourself if the game would have sold better if not for all the problems people experienced with it.

All this is speculation of course, and I would not be that proud of the units sold if I was the publisher.

LucasArts, for example, says a hit computer game sells between 200,000 and 350,000 units, Silent Hunter III did not sell that many only 26,600. So you be the judge.

[Sonarman]

U-4053 wrote I paid 40 Bucks for my copy of SH III !
$40 bucks is the same as £20 UK for once we are paying a price as low as you! Although if you want a bargain I beleve Amazon UK now has it for £10 if you fancy a second copy be sure to use Neal's Amazon UK link in the Subsim Store so he makes a little commission off it.


Soulcommander wrote:
Silent Hunter III did not sell that many only 26,600. So you be the judge.

The world is bigger than the USA! I believe that figure only pertains to the USA, in Germany Silent Hunter III was top of the charts for quite some time and also was number 3 in the UK charts, unheard of for a subsim. Now we hear from kiwi_2005 it is a top game in New Zealand and even in Russia. It seems that the Americans are the ones letting the side down go immediately to the Subsim store and buy more copies!!!

[Wozza]

Silent Hunter III although a great game in some peoples minds did not fair that well.
Take a look at this article: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/06/17/bargain.games/


All this is speculation of course, and I would not be that proud of the units sold if I was the publisher.

LucasArts, for example, says a hit computer game sells between 200,000 and 350,000 units, Silent Hunter III did not sell that many only 26,600. So you be the judge.

I agree with your point but that article is 8 months old. I would like to see an up to date listing that takes into account the profits/units sold after the price drop. A large volume of units, all be it at a lower price, still make profits. As Sonarman pointed out, the CNN figures are likely to be US based but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise!. The overall picture can't be too bad if SH4 has been given the green light...

[Sonarman]

Wozza wrote
The overall picture can't be too bad if SH4 has been given the green light...

Yes, exactly there is no way Ubi would make SH4 based only on 26600 units sold of SH3 look at the math:

outlay
20 man devteam at £15000 each (conservative estimate)
x 2 years dev time = £405000

income
26600 units sold at an average of £25 each =£650000
- retailers cut about 45% (probably more)= -£292000

That's a loss of £47000 before we even start talking about marketing advertising and thats without giving the project managers and lead designers any extra cash etc.

Hardly an inspiration to start work on SH4 or label the game as one of the brands" which have contributed to our success this year and will continue to do so in years to come" as Ubi said in their 2005 annual report.

[Soulcommander]

Silent Hunter III although a great game in some peoples minds did not fair that well.
Take a look at this article: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/06/17/bargain.games/


All this is speculation of course, and I would not be that proud of the units sold if I was the publisher.

LucasArts, for example, says a hit computer game sells between 200,000 and 350,000 units, Silent Hunter III did not sell that many only 26,600. So you be the judge.

I agree with your point but that article is 8 months old. I would like to see an up to date listing that takes into account the profits/units sold after the price drop. A large volume of units, all be it at a lower price, still make profits. As Sonarman pointed out, the CNN figures are likely to be US based but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise!. The overall picture can't be too bad if SH4 has been given the green light...

Thats what is sad about the June date. The game wasn't out but just a few months and went into the bargan bin that fast.

As you well know games that are emerging are normally bought up straight away and sales sky rocket. Not so with SHIII.

Sad indeed. It hit the bargain bin very quickly.

[Sonarman]

Yes Soulcommander I'd blame UBi's marketing machine for that, not much advertising anywhere. Also it may have been a better business decison to do a Pacific Theater sim first, then the Atlantic theatre in SH4 as a lot more people in the US purchased the original Pacific set SH rather than it's sequels.

There is also a big opportunity for UBI if they do a Japanese localised version of SH4 or include Japanese playable vessels. - Japan's population is equivalent to 43% of the US population! and to my knowledge there has never been a true subsim released in the Japanese language which could equate to a huge number of sales.

[John Channing]

Silent Hunter III although a great game in some peoples minds did not fair that well.
Take a look at this article: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/06/17/bargain.games/


All this is speculation of course, and I would not be that proud of the units sold if I was the publisher.

LucasArts, for example, says a hit computer game sells between 200,000 and 350,000 units, Silent Hunter III did not sell that many only 26,600. So you be the judge.

I agree with your point but that article is 8 months old. I would like to see an up to date listing that takes into account the profits/units sold after the price drop. A large volume of units, all be it at a lower price, still make profits. As Sonarman pointed out, the CNN figures are likely to be US based but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise!. The overall picture can't be too bad if SH4 has been given the green light...

Thats what is sad about the June date. The game wasn't out but just a few months and went into the bargan bin that fast.

As you well know games that are emerging are normally bought up straight away and sales sky rocket. Not so with SHIII.

Sad indeed. It hit the bargain bin very quickly.

Absolute nonsense.

I didn't get my copy until June and, trust me, I paid the full price.

It is still available, on shelves, at EB and a number of other outlets for full price. The other thing I noted was when I finally got around to purchasing Dangerous Waters the clerk at the store recommended me to Silent hunter 3, and he was very knowledgeable on it.

As well, for the first few months UbiSoft was hard pressed to keep up with the demand. The UbiSoft store sold out of their stock the first week, and there was a three week delay getting new product into the stores and available online. Given the lead time for getting articles published that puts you pretty close to the date this article was written.

This stupid article has been circulating for almost a year now, and is a perfect example on irresponsible and inaccurate reporting.

Several months ago a Ubisoft representative stated that they were very happy with the sales of Silent Hunter, but somehow that never gets repeated. Just that same stupid article over and over and over.

The absolute bottom line is that, if UbiSoft was not happy with the results there would be no SH4.

JCC

[winters]

After reading some of the problems caused by StarForce to PCs' i am very happy i bought mine through direct2drive. No StarForce and i havent had a single issue with the game, ever.

[Gizzmoe]

After reading some of the problems caused by StarForce to PCs' i am very happy i bought mine through direct2drive. No StarForce and i havent had a single issue with the game, ever.

The D2D version also comes with Starforce.

[winters]

I thought i had read someplace that it didnt. Oh well, i havent had any issues with my game or my PC since getting it.

[GT182]

Problems can pop up later on Winters. Hold your breath and pray they don't. ;)

[winters]

I've had the game installed for over a year now but i will keep an eye on things.

[Vonotto]

Vonotto, glad you're not having problems. But be careful, S-F can and maybe will bite you in the future when you least expect it. As it did to me after 8 months with my dvd burner.

Search and you'll find more about it.... here in this section and in the General Topics section.

I wouldn't read too much in what Starforce says in it's forums, they're only blowing their own horn to make themselves look good. Believe me, they're not good at all.

Don't get me wrong... I love SHIII. It's just the "malware" that UBI used to protect it that makes most of us mad as all h*ll.

Just to let you guys know....I copy all of my movie DVD's with my burner and make copies of music cd's with burner and copy program (all legal and only things I own and have paid for) and have never had a problem with starforce messing anything up.

[Soulcommander]

This topic has gone off track but whatever.

As far as your knowledge Mr. Channing I can't argue with you. But here in my city Best Buy did not sell that many copies and I happen to know the manager and he stated to me that there were copies on the shelf months after it came out and that the game did not sell well at all.

So as far as the story goes that I posted with link, I guess take it up with the journalist. Thats what I do. I go to the source.

If you don't like what is published let the journalsit know and tell him to back it up with proof.

I can assure you that any credible journalist does that.

Here is an example of how your own moderator posted something without checking out the facts on the article:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47535&start=0

CDfreaks article is an example of poor journalism, Mark never spoke to any online Magazine. If you need further proof I can post Marks response to me about this.

I also wrote to CDFREAKS...but they never responded.
So yes, I do practice what I preach in case you were wondering.

[Soulcommander]

Since some people in this thread did go off topic and have had no issues with Starforce and are likely watching this post, I would like to post the following here.

Hello all, I know alot of you are wondering what has been going on?
Well yours truly and 13thhour have been getting info to you as best we can. Now Cyber Shack brings you some info from:
Dennis Zhidkov (StarForce Technologies)
Steven Levy (Newsweek magazine)
Dan Mattia (Game-Overdrive.com)
Larry Freese (Consumer Rights Activist)

I also want to add that alot of the interview with myself was deleted for length requirements I'm sure. I want to add that I do NOT use nor have I ever used Daemon Tools or Alcohol 120% and yet I still had a CDRW drive fail!

Listen closely and replay it many times. Absorb what is being said.
Again this is real. And just becasue it hasn't hit you doesn't mean it never will.

Don't come down on the consumer. We are all consumers. We are here because we care and how it may affect you, the unknowing, like it affected us, myself included.

Thanks to places like Subsim and the Cyber shack for the medium to make the public aware.


The actual web page:
http://cybershack.com/comments.asp?id=453

Direct feed click here (http://downloads.cybershack.com/CyberShack-Features/StarForce-Feature-full-US-112k.mp3)

[Gizzmoe]

Listen closely and replay it many times. Absorb what is being said.

There was nothing to absorb, unfortunately nothing new was being said.

[Soulcommander]

Listen closely and replay it many times. Absorb what is being said.

There was nothing to absorb, unfortunately nothing new was being said.

Thanks for the comment I couldnt wait till you chimed in. You obviously don't have ears nor are you a caring person. Just here to make rebuttles and more.

[Gizzmoe]

You obviously don't have ears nor are you a caring person.

Ok, then be so kind and tell those people who don´t have time to replay it many times and to absorb all the informations correctly which important things were being said that we didn´t read before somewhere.

[Vonotto]

What is sad here and in EVERY forum everywhere is how some people have had troubles with a product and then continue to bad mouth it to others who have never had a problems and may never have one. What I would like to see is ....make your point once, there is no need to continue to bash things and attempt to sway others into what has become your "fight". All you do is make others feel that you have nothing productive to say, just the same old pitch.

This has been only my opinion.

To SoulCommander, this is NOT directed at you it is just my venting on something I see everyday here and on other forums. This topic just pushed me to the point I wanted to speak out.

[Soulcommander]

What is sad here and in EVERY forum everywhere is how some people have had troubles with a product and then continue to bad mouth it to others who have never had a problems and may never have one. What I would like to see is ....make your point once, there is no need to continue to bash things and attempt to sway others into what has become your "fight". All you do is make others feel that you have nothing productive to say, just the same old pitch.

This has been only my opinion.

To SoulCommander, this is NOT directed at you it is just my venting on something I see everyday here and on other forums. This topic just pushed me to the point I wanted to speak out.

I understand what your saying... The point is this is new information just like topics continue in tthe news. Iraq or whatever... Point here is you don't have to read Starforce threads that others create. If you don't want to read them, don't click on them. They are here for information. They are here and they don't force themselves on your monitor like some things I now get into your computer without your knowledge. Get my point?

Skip over all Starforce threads if you don't like the heading.

[winters]

Since some people in this thread did go off topic and have had no issues with Starforce and are likely watching this post, I would like to post the following here.


Let me get this right, your saying since i havent had any problems with StarForce that i am off topic? i thought the point of this thread was StarForce, are you saying if i am not here to bash it that i am off topic?

This is a forum, and by definition it means a public place to hold open discussions. My PC is still running fine after 1 year of playing the game. Maybe StarForce is as bad as people say it is, i have yet to have any problems with my PC and i think its a valid point to bring up in this discussion.

[U-4053]

Ok I listened to the radio broacast about this issue, it sounds like there is not enough evidence or data at this time, however, it is pointing in the direction that there is a serious issue with this starforce software and drivers.
At this point it looks like everyone is looking for someone to point the finger at from listening to this radio cast.
Personnaly I don't know I am not Computer literate to the point of writing code and stuff, so I have to put my trust in what other people who have that capability say, so I am still on the fence about it, but Im teetering towards the Lets Kill starforce crowd.
Should have an ol Fashioned Lynch Mob ready to go .

Charlie

[Soulcommander]

Since some people in this thread did go off topic and have had no issues with Starforce and are likely watching this post, I would like to post the following here.


Let me get this right, your saying since i havent had any problems with StarForce that i am off topic? i thought the point of this thread was StarForce, are you saying if i am not here to bash it that i am off topic?

This is a forum, and by definition it means a public place to hold open discussions. My PC is still running fine after 1 year of playing the game. Maybe StarForce is as bad as people say it is, i have yet to have any problems with my PC and i think its a valid point to bring up in this discussion.

Yes you got off topic. The post was about how well Silent Hunter was doing. Not about if you had no issues.
Moderators sometimes get upset here and there when topics drift, thats why I posted "Off Topic" But since no moderator has stoped it thus far then it seems its ok. So I did it too.

1. Your download carries Starforce if it was a Starforce protected game. Check your device manager and click on "Show Hidden devices"
Then look under plug and play.

2. Show me where I or anyone says if you have Starforce installed you will 100% be affected.

3. Just because you have SF installed does not mean that you will be affected. In the same token it does not mean you wont! Sometimes the affect of SF takes a while to show up as in GT182 occurence. (A former Ubisoft moderator)

4. I am not here to insult anyone, or bash SF...so if I did I apologize.

SC

[Soulcommander]

Ok I listened to the radio broacast about this issue, it sounds like there is not enough evidence or data at this time, however, it is pointing in the direction that there is a serious issue with this starforce software and drivers.
At this point it looks like everyone is looking for someone to point the finger at from listening to this radio cast.
Personnaly I don't know I am not Computer literate to the point of writing code and stuff, so I have to put my trust in what other people who have that capability say, so I am still on the fence about it, but Im teetering towards the Lets Kill starforce crowd.
Should have an ol Fashioned Lynch Mob ready to go .

Charlie

Actually there is evidence. And because of certain circumstances we can't post this. Can you understand that?
Also you can see a post here where there is more evidence coming in about problems. http://r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=14

Also know that much of the interview was cut for time constraints. You would know alot more if it was aired in its entirety.
Another post of interest: http://r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=20

Your lets kill SF crowd is rather harsh. But I get your point.
Also since I don't appreciate that word at the moment you will have to pardon me from asking you not to use such harsh language.

We want Starforce to addmit there are problems and fix them. But they never will as so many people would demand credit for hardware and computer down time.

Or we just want the game companies that we purchase software from to go with other less intrusive copy protection that doesn't use ring 0 level protection that causes much of the problems that we are seeing.

One game that Im all for is this one! Getting a 9 from reviewers at the moment and the company is against intrusive copy protection.

http://r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=25

Or a more direct link here: http://www.galciv2.com/forums.aspx?forumid=5&aid=21895&c=1

[Sonarman]

While we are still a bit off topic...
Here is a LINK (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/8121095173) to a forum posting on Starforce written by a Developer at Ubisoft into a report done by Ubi into the Starforce controversy. it is quite interesting reading and specifically mentions SH3.

To quote the article by MuadDib_FC on SH3

The second (problem reported) is with cd/dvd functions problems (no more read/write) reported with Silent Hunter 3. Out of 11 such problems reported, only 2 cases were solved. The problem could not be reproduced, and the origin could not be found. It is suspected not linked with Starforce. It could be due to a defective manufacturing of the cd in the first place, as this is appearing only with one game title. On a statistics level, it is still very low, around one user out of a fifty thousands (0.002%).

[Sonarman]

..

[U-4053]

Sorry if the word kill offends you, I come from a back ground where my personnality is Abrupt and to the point.
And I havent seen any evidence in black and white other than someone saying that 20% of all machines bought in for repairs were involved with star Force.
All I care About is, will this stuff hurt my machine?
No one can say Yes it will, I do hear that several people have had problems since the installation of this software, Although it appears to be the culprit here , no one is 100 % certain.
At least from what I've seen.
But I have already diqualified myself from being any type of PC expert, So as I said before I have to trust in what people such as your selves say about this sort of thing.
So for all the other non Techies out here don't let us down . do your home work.
When I did Police work if I didnt cross every t and dot every I A criminal would go free, so look at it like that , make sure all your T's and I's are done and then put the suspect away.
Acusations and asumptions are not enough to gain a conviction .
This type of forum is how problems get solved, it is also how a lot of belly aching is done, sort the wheat from the chaff and geter done.


Charlie

[ThirteenthHouR]

In relation to the recent Interviews. lets get some things clear.

1. To meet the criteria for the time slot the interviews have to be heavily edited.

2. No Broadcaster is going to make the mistake of Broadcasting specific issues that could open them up to legal retribution (be such action valid or not).

3. Nobody with the slightest understanding of what Ring 0 actually is. Would ever want anything of a non hardware status installed in Core of the system. To correct the interviewer (To be fair he is not a Computer Engineer). Starforce is actually 3rd party software existing as a virtual device along side a hardware device. By its very nature it must interfere with the normal IDE data streams to obtain its data from the disk. (Be that CD/DVD or more recently Hard Drives).

To have any 3rd party software running in this area of the system is a major security issue, if it wasn’t would there be any Legal action against Sony for exploiting very similar techniques?

Recently (Although reluctantly I may add given the nature of how this information can be used in the wrong hands) I have disclosed an example of just how easy it is to exploit SF.

A number of you will remember the 'BufferOverflow' issue with Windows 98 and Internet Explorer:

Basically in this scenario a malicious website with use Java script or a bogus active X component to pop up 1000's of windows on you system. This had two purposes. ! they where rigging advertising click through’s for profit, the other was to saturate the system to such a level that the data Buffers could not cope. Hence the 'BufferOverFLow error'.

Why trigger this?

Well basically each time a window is opened from a website, this opens a virtual port. By triggering this error it stops Firewalls and Anti virus in their tracks. Leaving ports wide open to your system.

This rarely occurs these days because the ‘industry responded to the security issues’. Most browsers now have built in pop up blocking, Active X signatures etc. As well as user side Firewalls and Anti Virus monitoring for this type of activity.

So we come back to Starforce;

1. Do we have anything to prevent SF the IDE streams being flooded with data?

Ans: No! all protection software it told to ignore it as its Copyright Protection.

2. Do we have anything that monitors BufferOverflow in the IDE system.

Ans: Yes, however SF is not actually part of the IDE system, its like leech feeding off it. Injecting its own anti blocking agent so it gets its maximum flow of its nourishment (IDE Stream Data)

3. Is this exploit easy to recreate?

Ans: Yes, its alarmingly easy.


Whats the cure?

Well the best cure is not to have SF on your system in the first place. However if that cannot be avoided, then lets at least get Anti-Virus and Firewall Software companies to stop ignoring SF.

OK that is not really a fix as SF is Ring 0 and has more authority than any 3rd party software, but at least it will help stop so called "Beginner level Hackers" from killing your hardware.


I would add that certain boss from Starforce Technologies is willing to make comments, however he is not willing to get into an open debate with those of us that know just how SF works and how impractical it really is in the real world.

So I will end this comment with a response from Nerva (Root Admin) Security Technologies (Starforce) Technical Support Forum.

This is an unedited copy and paste of his respnse, obviously English is not his first Language.

Hi again!

I'v forwarded your reauest to our programmer, who make whole drivers work.

Could you plz contact him to research the problem closer togehter? (if yes i''ll give you his e-mail)

Right now he has no idea whats going on. After we fined any solution or start to understand the problem cearfuly - we could make some forum post on it.

I had expected an unusual response, but in no way did I expect Nerva to drop such a bomb shell concerning their programmer “Right now he has no idea whats going on”.

As we say here in the UK can you really question it when it comes “Straight from the Horses Mouth”?

They honestly do not know what is going on or how to fix the problems.

What more solid proof can be presented that the SF team admitting this?

[Herr Karl]

Silent Hunter III user manual

Page 4 Getting Started-System Requirements (last paragraph)

[Quote] NOTICE: This game contains technology intended to prevent copying that may conflict with some disc and vitual drives.

*Now what those conflicts are exactly are not specified. Obviously Ubisoft and Starforce were aware in advance that issues could develop.

[VonHelsching]

There is also a big opportunity for UBI if they do a Japanese localised version of SH4 or include Japanese playable vessels. - Japan's population is equivalent to 43% of the US population! and to my knowledge there has never been a true subsim released in the Japanese language which could equate to a huge number of sales.

UBI has the opportunity of involving more than US and Japan in this sim, ie UK and the Netherlands. This could also be done by providing some (no more than 2) japanese and one UK subs (plus the capaigns) and keeping the rest (plus the Monsoon boats :sunny: ) for an expansion pack

On topic, now: Although SH3 is the second best game I have ever seen (after the Civilization series) and the community is far more mature and enthusiastic, I do believe that SF played at least a minor role in the game's success, because it seems that delayed the emerging of a pirated version of the 1.4 update.

But this delaying whould not mean anything if the game did not have the durability that it presents. So many months have passed and we still see exciting mods and modpacks to appear. Probably, also the target group of this sim involves a lot of people above their 30s with kids and family, who do not change their games every week.

But my opinion might be biased and wrong, since I am very picky on which games I buy. It would be interesting to learn about other recent games' fates and how SF affected their success.

[Soulcommander]

Herr Karl

NOTICE: This game contains technology intended to prevent copying that may conflict with some disc and vitual drives.

*Now what those conflicts are exactly are not specified. Obviously Ubisoft and Starforce were aware in advance that issues could develop.

This is a good point that I made last year sometime in June.

Some other information:

I also posted a UBI letter from Benoit in France recently on the Ubi Forums after I was being called a liar from Ubi's own Dev team, saying to me that there was no changes taking place at Starforce like I said there was.

They were slandering me and fellow Ubisoft customers asked me to please post the letters to stop the Moderators at Ubi and the Devs from calling me a liar.

So I broke my ban got a different account and posted the letters.

In this letter Benoit indicates to me that Starforce is undergoing some changes and In Benoits own words said:

"By compatibility Lab, I mean Star Force will widen its scope of PC configurations and optical drives brands & models. And more over it will be an external lab so they will have to face what they found. I know this is not done yet but at least this a progress we hope to be enhancing their behaviour.

I will not post the letters here but if you search the Ubi forums in the Heros of Might and magic area you will find the letters posted.
As long as they haven't deleted them also as they have went through a massive Deleting of posts concerning Starforce problems that people were having.

I have document after document showing how I was helping Ubi and now they seem to have closed the doors. So this unwillingness by them to find out what is going on is now no more.

So my support of buying any games from them is OVER.

I have hung in there with them for almost a year now and there own Dev team and moderators seem to know less information than I do. Seems a bit strange doesn't it?

SC

[U-4053]

WOW, Thats Serious.
Im wondering now if My drives have been effected?
I know My Asus 5224A started having problems, but I took it out and got a Plextor , and put the Asus into another machine where SH III isn't installed and it appears to be running fine.
I have also Noticed that A few weeks ago I was able to Burn Music files onto Imation Disks but now I get an error as thought the Media is not compatable.
This is very interesting .


Charlie

[Gizzmoe]

I have also Noticed that A few weeks ago I was able to Burn Music files onto Imation Disks but now I get an error as thought the Media is not compatable.

You could try the SF driver update:
http://www.star-force.com/support/sfdrvup.zip

Or try the SF removal tools:
http://onlinesecurity-on.com/downloads/sfdrvrem.zip

If it works after removing SF you know that it is a SF-related problem.

[Soulcommander]

Back on topic again. If you check your Ubi stocks you may find that Ubi isn't doing to well as you suggest with this beginning thread.

Have a look and see: http://yahoo.reuters.com/stocks/QuoteCompanyNewsArticle.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:re uters.com:20060127:MTFH77777_2006-01-27_09-26-49_L27698747&symbol=UBIP.PA

A short Blurb: PARIS, Jan 27 (Reuters) - Shares in Ubisoft (UBIP.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) fell 10 percent on Friday after Europe's second-largest video games publisher cut its financial goals for the full year 2005/06, blaming weak markets in the United States and Europe.

[ThirteenthHouR]

WOW, Thats Serious.
Im wondering now if My drives have been effected?
I know My Asus 5224A started having problems, but I took it out and got a Plextor , and put the Asus into another machine where SH III isn't installed and it appears to be running fine.
I have also Noticed that A few weeks ago I was able to Burn Music files onto Imation Disks but now I get an error as thought the Media is not compatable.
This is very interesting . Charlie

It sounds like you may have DMA step down issues. Look here.

http://www.r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1

[ThirteenthHouR]

I have also Noticed that A few weeks ago I was able to Burn Music files onto Imation Disks but now I get an error as thought the Media is not compatable.

You could try the SF driver update:
http://www.star-force.com/support/sfdrvup.zip

Or try the SF removal tools:
http://onlinesecurity-on.com/downloads/sfdrvrem.zip

If it works after removing SF you know that it is a SF-related problem.

Removing SF won't cure the problems if the Kernel Stack has already been messed up by SF. You have to physically reset the IDE (DMA) speed again.

[Gizzmoe]

Removing SF won't cure the problems if the Kernel Stack has already been messed up by SF. You have to physically reset the IDE (DMA) speed again.

That´s right, but in his case it´s worth a try. If that and/or a driver update doesn´t help he can try your advanced method.

[U-4053]

Giz You GUys Thanks for the Help on this Issue.
What is DMA?................And how Do I physicalloy reset it ?

I can do alot of stuff with a Computer but I have never head of this sort of stuff so its a bit like looking at a Menue written in Chinese.
Thanks alot for the Files and update info.
And Once I reset my DMA will start force just mess it up again?
And how often will I have to reset my DMA ?
To avoid Running Space on this thread feel fre to IM me or e-mail me with teh response it will save some headach for moderators .

[Soulcommander]

Giz You GUys Thanks for the Help on this Issue.
What is DMA?................And how Do I physicalloy reset it ?

I can do alot of stuff with a Computer but I have never head of this sort of stuff so its a bit like looking at a Menue written in Chinese.
Thanks alot for the Files and update info.
And Once I reset my DMA will start force just mess it up again?
And how often will I have to reset my DMA ?
To avoid Running Space on this thread feel fre to IM me or e-mail me with the response it will save some headach for moderators .

To answer your question you first would want to see if your cd or dvd rom drive is running in pio mode. If it is you may have an affected drive.

To correct this go here: http://www.r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1

Follow the instructions.

And yes as long as Starforce is installed on your system, you will want to check your drives often. If you don't you could end up with drive failure.

To check to see if your drives have already stepped dowm from Dma to pio do the following.

1. Right click on my computer and choose properties.

2. Click on the hardware tab.

3. Click on Device Manager.

4. Click the + sign in front of IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers.

5. Start with the primary and right click and choose properties.

6. Click on the tab that says "Advanced Settings" and look at "Crrent Transfer mode" Make sure it does not say Pio mode.

7. If it does then follow the link I provided you at the top and follow those instructions.

If you caught it in time then after you follow the procedures in the above link everything should reinstall. But if there was already "Hardware Failure: then you may see that your computer can't reinstall dma mode drivers after you do your reboot. (Again following the link above)


Hardware failure occures:

A lot of new CD/DVD hardware is not PIO mode compatible. Thus any period of time being used in this old 16bit mode
can be interpreted by some drives as attempts to Overburn/Read an excessively over burned disk.

I.E in over burning you force the laser to go right to the edge of the disk.
This results in the laser in many cases hitting the side
casing of its guide and in turn, stripping the threads off the worm gear.

Basically it trashes the hardware.

Some drives also interpret the search for specific sectors indicated by SF as an over burn read/write command.



SC

[U-4053]

Thanks Soul, it is in DMA Mode. I have the Link you gave me Saved, Wow Thanks, I appreciate it alot .

Charlie

[Soulcommander]

Thanks Soul, it is in DMA Mode. I have the Link you gave me Saved, Wow Thanks, I appreciate it alot .
Charlie


It's no problem Charlie, glad to help.
I'm glad all is well. Just keep an eye on things. Alot of SF issues don't show up right away.
And the fact remains, SF drivers are in the Level 0 area of your computer and it's something you don't want. You can always read upmore about it at our site.

[U-4053]

Thanks, I recently had to do a reformat because of my Asus Drive failing about 4 weeks ago now, so it may be early yet, along with the info you gave me and the file to remove the SF drivers maybe I can circumvent any problems? only time will tell.
Thanks again.

[Herr Karl]

I have also Noticed that A few weeks ago I was able to Burn Music files onto Imation Disks but now I get an error as thought the Media is not compatable.

You could try the SF driver update:
http://www.star-force.com/support/sfdrvup.zip

Or try the SF removal tools:
http://onlinesecurity-on.com/downloads/sfdrvrem.zip

If it works after removing SF you know that it is a SF-related problem.

I'm unable to burn ISO images now...could this driver update help me? I'm reluctant to "upgrade" my starforce drivers because of my previous issues.

[Gizzmoe]

I'm unable to burn ISO images now...could this driver update help me?

Can you burn other files?

[Herr Karl]

I'm still able to burn music. :hmm:

[Gizzmoe]

I'm still able to burn music. :hmm:

Then it sounds more like a software problem or the ISO file is broken. What´s the error message?

[Herr Karl]

I'm still able to burn music. :hmm:

Then it sounds more like a software problem or the ISO file is broken. What´s the error message?

That's the thing, there was no error message. It was a bootable Ubuntu image. I thought I didn't burn under the proper format and tried to burn the image two more times. It just wouldn't work. Could be I didn't do something right, but this is the area that starforce protects against---the ability to copy. It's basically just an annoyance, but I'd like the capability to reproduce images at my own discretion.

[Gizzmoe]

Try it with another ISO image and another burn software.

Could be I didn't do something right, but this is the area that starforce protects against---the ability to copy.

It protects the games, but it doesn´t block CD/DVD writing. If it does then it´s a bug and not a feature. I don´t have any problems.

[Herr Karl]

Try it with another ISO image and another burn software.

I'll do that, and will get back to you later...thanks for the consideration
Gizzmoe. I'm off to the Mod forum! :D

[ThirteenthHouR]

Try removing, SF http://onlinesecurity-on.com/downloads/sfdrvrem.zip (As posted by Gizzmoe further back in the thread)

Carry out the DMA step down fix here. How to cure DMA step down of DVD/CD ROM drives (http://r-force.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1)

You may also need to re-install your burning app.

SF can interfere with ISO burning ability and the basic ATAPI driver. As it is set up to interpret ISO burning as being piracy. I know that's Crazy but who really understands Security Technologies Logic about things?

[Gizzmoe]

SF can interfere with ISO burning ability and the basic ATAPI driver. As it is set up to interpret ISO burning as being piracy. I know that's Crazy but who really understands Security Technologies Logic about things?

I can burn ISO images, so it´s not a general problem with SF.

Oh, and please check your PM!

[ThirteenthHouR]

SF can interfere with ISO burning ability and the basic ATAPI driver. As it is set up to interpret ISO burning as being piracy. I know that's Crazy but who really understands Security Technologies Logic about things?

I can burn ISO images, so it´s not a general problem with SF.

Just because one person can burn an ISO does not remove it from being General problem for the majority of users. As there are over 60 types of ISO burning apps as well as Microsoft’s own one.

Combine that with so many drive types and IDE controllers and you will see just how unjustified your statement was. You cannot make a statement of fact or rebuttal based upon such limited data otherwise peeps will come down on you very quickly as I just did. (basically your previous SF argument turned back on you, You can't have it both ways).

However, you most probably are in the more rare 5% of users that have not had problems yet.

[Gizzmoe]

Just because one person can burn an ISO does not remove it from being General problem for the majority of users. [...] However, you most probably are in the more rare 5% of users that have not had problems yet.

You know for a fact that the majority of users have those problems? Interesting... Could you back up your statement with some references, please?

[Soulcommander]

Just because one person can burn an ISO does not remove it from being General problem for the majority of users. [...] However, you most probably are in the more rare 5% of users that have not had problems yet.

You know for a fact that the majority of users have those problems? Interesting... Could you back up your statement with some references, please?

Here we go again.

Can you back up yours? The fact remains that you can't and we can. However, this information will not be released to you. For obvious reasons.

[Gizzmoe]

Can you back up yours? The fact remains that you can't and we can. However, this information will not be released to you. For obvious reasons.

*Puts on moderator robe*

Nonsense. When someone of you guys come here and say that it affects the majority of users you better come up with some background informations or at least some basic explanations. If you can´t or you don´t want to then don´t write such things, otherwise it could be seen as libelous and that´s something I can´t and won´t tolerate as a moderator.

Generally speaking, feel free to post any new informations about SF here on Subsim.com, no matter how bad they are, but do not spread informations that you can´t back up for whatever reason.

[Onkel Neal]

Can you back up yours? The fact remains that you can't and we can. However, this information will not be released to you. For obvious reasons.



Generally speaking, feel free to post any new informations about SF here on Subsim.com, no matter how bad they are, but do not spread informations that you can´t back up for whatever reason.

Agreed.

Also, as long as the topic is about SH3, it can live here. But SF threads belong in General Topics. This forum is for SH3 discussion. I know it comes with SF anti-piracy software but discussions about SF need to go in General Topics. Thanks. :yep:

[U-4053]

Cross your T's and dot those I 's

[ThirteenthHouR]

Just because one person can burn an ISO does not remove it from being General problem for the majority of users. [...] However, you most probably are in the more rare 5% of users that have not had problems yet.

You know for a fact that the majority of users have those problems? Interesting... Could you back up your statement with some references, please?

How about 20% of all systems brought into PCWorld in the last 3 weeks. All suffering with DMA step down, inability to burn ISO's etc, all attributed to Star Force (Information supplied by PCWorld Senior Engineer)

(PCWorld= The largest Computer retailer in the UK, Part of the Dixons Group)

Or Security Technologies (Starforce) Tech support site (Root Admin) 'Nerva' admitting that their programmer does not know how to cure these problems (And quoting my fix).

Even Dennis (Of Security Technologies fame) won't make comments about this as he knows I will drag him through the coals.

Not wishing to flame, but maybe moderators should not make comments that they cannot backup with evidence.

[Soulcommander]

Can you back up yours? The fact remains that you can't and we can. However, this information will not be released to you. For obvious reasons.

Generally speaking, feel free to post any new informations about SF here on Subsim.com, no matter how bad they are, but do not spread informations that you can´t back up for whatever reason.

I think it works both ways. Don't be saying things you can't prove because I can't see your system.

The facts are all over the net. Facts from peoples accounts of problems as well as facts coming in from manufactures. And The proof as you constantly want and even call me about on the phone is not going to be given to you. Partly because of legal reasons.

Also, your threat to me and William was not taken lightly, I see those posts were deleted. But Know that any more threats like this are being looked at. The owner of this site may not know whats going on but if he would like my telephone number I would be glad to speak to him about it personally!

[Gizzmoe]

Also, your threat to me and William was not taken lightly, I see those posts were deleted. But Know that any more threats like this are being looked at. The owner of this site may not know whats going on but if he would like my telephone number I would be glad to speak to him about it personally!

Me threatening ThirteenthHouR and you? Deleted posts? WTH are you talking about? Maybe this? http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=455467#455467

[Gizzmoe]

How about 20% of all systems brought into PCWorld in the last 3 weeks. All suffering with DMA step down, inability to burn ISO's etc, all attributed to Star Force (Information supplied by PCWorld Senior Engineer)

A few posts ago you told me that it´s not ok to use limited data. 3 weeks of collected data from a single retailer is limited data, it´s not enough so that you can say that the majority of users are affected. Many millions of SF-protected games were sold, you simply cannot know how many people were affected worldwide in the past one or two years. Simple fact.

[Soulcommander]

Thanks for finding it. I see you edited the info. Nice of you to do that since right after you posted that my phone rang with a death threat and then shortly after that call, you call me.

[Gizzmoe]

Thanks for finding it. I see you edited the info. Nice of you to do that since right after you posted that my phone rang with a death threat and then shortly after that call, you call me.

What are you insinuating here?

[ThirteenthHouR]

How about 20% of all systems brought into PCWorld in the last 3 weeks. All suffering with DMA step down, inability to burn ISO's etc, all attributed to Star Force (Information supplied by PCWorld Senior Engineer)

A few posts ago you told me that it´s not ok to use limited data. 3 weeks of collected data from a single retailer is limited data, it´s not enough so that you can say that the majority of users are affected. Many millions of SF-protected games were sold, you simply cannot know how many people were affected worldwide in the past one or two years. Simple fact.

You asked for an example I gave you an example.

Btw I did not say 'Single Store', please look at www.pcworld.co.uk they just happen to a be the largest chain of Warehouse type computers stores in the United Kingdom.

On that note you made a claim that because it did not occur to you that it did not occur Generally to other users. One user is rather different to 30,000 + on the balance of probabilities.

The other matter given that other response in questrion was directly from Security Technologies, are you now saying that they are not in the position to know what problems their own software causes?

Dude will you please stop trying to incite a flame war?

[Soulcommander]

How about 20% of all systems brought into PCWorld in the last 3 weeks. All suffering with DMA step down, inability to burn ISO's etc, all attributed to Star Force (Information supplied by PCWorld Senior Engineer)

A few posts ago you told me that it´s not ok to use limited data. 3 weeks of collected data from a single retailer is limited data, it´s not enough so that you can say that the majority of users is affected. Many millions of SF-protected games were sold, you simply cannot know how many people were affected worldwide in the past one or two years. Simple fact.

As I said before, I'm sure glad I wasn't your teacher in school.

Facts are facts. Numbers are numbers. Do you need a bird to fly over you and do it's job before you realize a bird does have bodily functions.

Do you also know that many people that have SF installed and have had issues are not as intelligent as some and will never know what there problem was?

I love it when you moderators like to turn the waters to try to fool the general public that comes seeking information. I hope you are entertained by our postings.

[John Channing]

If this does not get back on track very very soon this thread will go the way of all of the previous Starforce threads, and quietly disappear.

Enough of the insults and conspiracy theories.

JCC

[Soulcommander]

If this does not get back on track very very soon this thread will go the way of all of the previous Starforce threads, and quietly disappear.

Enough of the insults and conspiracy theories.

JCC

What insults what conspiracy theories? You don't have the facts Mr. Channing. Maybe you would like to talk to the authorities?

Im sure Mr. Gizmoe is being watched very closely, he has my personal info and tele number. I don't see any problems until Giz cites posts that cause us to respond. Maybe he needs to just remain helpful like we are. Instead the INSULTS as you call them come from him.

Guess you haven't been watching the posts and deleted info very closely. Maybe a call is needed to the owner of this forum,not by myself but by someone above himself and myself.

I don't take threats lightly when it involves my family.


Do you?

[Gizzmoe]

What insults what conspiracy theories? You don't have the facts Mr. Channing. Maybe you would like to talk to the authorities?

Im sure Mr. Gizmoe is being watched very closely.

:88) :88) :88) :88) :88) :88) :88)

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

[ThirteenthHouR]

If this does not get back on track very very soon this thread will go the way of all of the previous Starforce threads, and quietly disappear.

Enough of the insults and conspiracy theories.

JCC

No insults here, Gizzmoe seems to have problem as to what is genuine information, Even when it comes from Security Technoligies themselves he still refuses to accept it. (although he has been quoting them all along).

From what I have observed the SF threads have been quite calm and no problems occured until Gizzmoe (No offence ment to the guy) starts injecting comments, making acusations etc which are completly unfounded then expects nobody to challenge him on that.

Moderator or not, its not a reasonable way to go about business on a forum. Personally I know from experience as I own a number of sites and very large forums. If Gizzmoe had been one of my moderators he would have been warned ages ago, but he is not and that is an issue that is entirely left up to yourselves to deal with.

I would add that on numerous occassions I have had to play devils advocate between Gizzmoe and other posters to stop flame wars occuring. I should not have to do that.

[Soulcommander]

What insults what conspiracy theories? You don't have the facts Mr. Channing. Maybe you would like to talk to the authorities?

Im sure Mr. Gizmoe is being watched very closely.

:88) :88) :88) :88) :88) :88) :88)

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
Childish moderator

[Gizzmoe]

Childish moderator

Sorry, but my position and the forum rules don´t allow me to use very explicit language, so I had to use emoticons instead.

[ThirteenthHouR]

That said can we get back on track, as this thread is about Starforce after all.

[John Channing]

Ok... let me explain this slowly and carefully.

This thread started out about the possibility that Silent Hunter 3 was successful because of Starforce. I knew we were in trouble at that point.

It took a grand total of 6 posts for the Starforce Jihadists to yank it completely off topic and begin the 9 gazillionth rehash of the same old same old.

Now we have accusations about Subsim moderators making threats, being called childish, and the ever popular "you prove it.. no you prove it".

If the discussion does not become civil and adult right now it goes bye-bye and then you will have to start a whole new Starforce thread!

Geeze... some days this is like Daycare, without the money!


JCC

[John Channing]

That said can we get back on track, as this thread is about Starforce after all.

Actually this thread was about Silent Hunter 3's success and how that possibly could be attributed to Starforce.

Then it got hijacked.

So I agree... let's get it back on the original topic.

JCC

[ThirteenthHouR]

Ok... let me explain this slowly and carefully.

This thread started out about the possibility that Silent Hunter 3 was successful because of Starforce. I knew we were in trouble at that point.

It took a grand total of 6 posts for the Starforce Jihadists to yank it completely off topic and begin the 9 gazillionth rehash of the same old same old.

Now we have accusations about Subsim moderators making threats, being called childish, and the ever popular "you prove it.. no you prove it".

If the discussion does not become civil and adult right now it goes bye-bye and then you will have to start a whole new Starforce thread!

Geeze... some days this is like Daycare, without the money!


JCC


Excuse me, "Starforce Jihadists". I will avoid taking that insult.

If you care to actually check around as to who I am you will find that I am not a fanatic, I own and run several tech support forms that Dwarf Subsim.

I only post factual information, where possible (Excluding issues which for legal reasons of the companies involved have not given authority for disclosure).

The details from a Senior PC World Engineer where only disclosed exclusively to www.r-force.org last week (Another one of my sites that I opened on the 19th February 2006)

If you care to look there rather than being a fanatic, I made sure that we had sections both for Pro and Anti DRM supporters. So that there is balanced information presented from all sides.

Now an interesting point, are you the one being quoted on the news, are you the one being interviewed? I ask this because those media outlets would not stick their knecks out unless they had verified that who they have quoted actually knows what they are talking about.


On another issue.
There is no conspiracy theory where death threats and the involvement of the FBI in that investigation is concerned. A moderator here just happens to be a prime suspect (For legal reasons I have not stated who), thats no conspiracy that is a serious criminal offence. Personally I hope it is not the person in question is inocent as I would not wish the wrath of the authorities on anyone.


Now to get back on topic.

Quite simply the only figures supplied that support the position of SF promoting sales of Media, is produced by Security Technologies themselves.

Theres actually is no evidence even in those figures that challenges the fact the games ST quote are actually top grade products and would have sold in large numbers anyway.

Now is ST can quote a game that is total crap and they manage to protect it until it meets a quota, then that would grab more peeps interest.

[Gizzmoe]

There is no conspiracy theory where death threats and the involvement of the FBI in that investigation is concerned. A moderator here just happens to be a prime suspect (For legal reasons I have not stated who), that no conspiracy that is a serious criminal offence.

Cool, I´m a prime suspect of the FBI... :) How pathetic!

[Soulcommander]

That said can we get back on track, as this thread is about Starforce after all.

Actually this thread was about Silent Hunter 3's success and how that possibly could be attributed to Starforce.

Then it got hijacked.

So I agree... let's get it back on the original topic.

JCC

On that topic.... Yes it was...And It was also off track several times and I stated that a page back. But again its also comendable that people get help. And again it was off topic... But we did some good by it anyway. Further...If your own moderator goes off topic then what can we do about it? Moderate him also?

OK back on topic now.

I think that Ubi can't afford not to have a Silent Hunter IV. Their sales and stocks and financial well being is not that good as you can see from a previous link I posted. There was even talk of a company buy out by another pub. when stocks fell. So unless some blockbuster game would be int he works I can see them trying to do better with an installment of SH IV. My only hope is that SF will be excluded from it so I can go back to buying Ubi games again.

[ThirteenthHouR]

There is no conspiracy theory where death threats and the involvement of the FBI in that investigation is concerned. A moderator here just happens to be a prime suspect (For legal reasons I have not stated who), that no conspiracy that is a serious criminal offence.

Cool, I´m a prime suspect of the FBI... :) How pathetic!

I had not actually said who it was?

[Gizzmoe]

I had not actually said who it was?

"A moderator here". Larry accused me of threatening him, so who could that be...

[ThirteenthHouR]

Well if the hat fits.

[Gizzmoe]

Well if the hat fits.

You guys are really something special...

[John Channing]

Now an interesting point, are you the one being quoted on the news, are you the one being interviewed? I ask this because those media outlets would not stick their knecks out unless they had verified that who they have quoted actually knows what they are talking about

Now that was funny.

Just so you know I have worked in broadcast media for probably more years than you have been alive and, trust me, journalists print and broadcast unproven facts, innuendo and outright falsehoods everyday.

Just because it's been on television, radio or in the papers, doesn't make it true.

JCC

[John Channing]

Excuse me, "Starforce Jihadists". I will avoid taking that insult.



Ok... then enlighten me.

What Subsims do you play?

JCC

[ThirteenthHouR]

Now an interesting point, are you the one being quoted on the news, are you the one being interviewed? I ask this because those media outlets would not stick their knecks out unless they had verified that who they have quoted actually knows what they are talking about

Now that was funny.

Just so you know I have worked in broadcast media for probably more years than you have been alive and, trust me, journalists print and broadcast unproven facts, innuendo and outright falsehoods everyday.

Just because it's been on television, radio or in the papers, doesn't make it true.

JCC

Yes and how often do they get sued? Dennis threatens to sue anybody that even looks the wrong way at SF.

Have you not noticed that he has never threatened me, even though I have posted some of the most damming information against Security Technologies on the net?

Quite simply he can't because he knows I would take them to the cleaners.



So you have been in the media for over 37 years?

Personally I have only been writing up in the scene for around 25 years. My reputation precedes me. Personally I have never heard of you (No offence ment , that was just an observation)

Heck they even use my old black hat handles for Hollywood films, but this thread is not about how far any of us can p*** in the snow.

You ask me what subsims I played, I wrote the code on some of the originals. Back in the Z80 days :D so that is a bit of a silly question.

[Skybird]

For some reason it is always the same name(s) when it comes to the blind defending of SF and the ignoring of documented problems that had been filed and described by damn many users around the whole damn web, games and professional software alike. Not to see them needs a clear intention of not wanting to see them.

Some companies even released new software versions of their products to bypass SF, and abandoned SF completely, that small and minor the customer's negative reaction and that small and minor the numbers of people being affected by SF-caused problems is. Not to mention that since over a year now forums (f.e. UBI, simHQ, SF (heavily censored), diverse German forums I visited) and product-feedback pages (f.e. Amazon, diverse price-comparison services) are filled with complaints and explicit problem descriptions that were not solved by official tools and updates. Not too mention the many postings and essays by tech guys who examined it on a more professional basis and have the knowledge to look into SF on a technologcal level, and/or judging it from the professional experiences in their jobs.

All the info is there on the web, but it is under a spell: it is only readable by those who wants to read it.

This is the situation.

My advise is as usual: vote with your wallets. If enough people do not buy SF-infested stuff anymore, companies will suffer financial pain, will try to reduce that pain and will give up on SF as a consequence, so SF will dissappear (and companies will offer you patches to delete SF in existing software-I took benefit from that kind of service myself). If you keep on buying it, then you get what you deserve, and if you happen to run into problems of whom you thought they cannot hit you becasue such problems do not exist, you shall not complain then, for you have given up the right to do so.

Just these two options, and no third one i see. I myself avoid Sf like the pleague after bad exoeriences on two systems, like I also avoid unfinished and rushed software or software of known buggy state. Spares me a very lot of money :up:

[ThirteenthHouR]

Well if the hat fits.

You guys are really something special...

Dude nobody mentioned you, if you have something that makes you feel guilty about it than take it up with the FBI.

Now will you please stop trying to incite a flame war.

[Gizzmoe]

Dude nobody mentioned you, if you have something that makes you feel guilty about it than take it up with the FBI.

I´m a German and the FBI is an US organisation, I couldn´t care less about them. Besides that, I have nothing to feel guilty about.

[Soulcommander]

Now since the moderator himself went off topic... LOL How old are you Mr Channing?

I have been in the broadcasting business since 1979. But does it matter? I mean I have seen younger braoadcsters take positions away from older ones. I don't get your point? And only a journalist that fails to verify their sources, lose their credibility.

[Gizzmoe]

I don't get your point?

"Just because it's been on television, radio or in the papers, doesn't make it true."

[STEED]

My advise is as usual: vote with your wallets. If enough people do not buy SF-infested stuff anymore, companies will suffer financial pain

Well I just spent 45 minutes reading this thread I have no problems with my PC. It's a hot topic and I agree with Skybird.
If you don't like SF don't buy it :yep:

[Skybird]

Now since the moderator himself went off topic... LOL How old are you Mr Channing?

To those who are concerned,

I strongly recommend to resist the temptation to (directly or indirectly) target moderators in their moderating function as long as they do not abuse their position. Few things will get you easier into trouble or the thread locked.

Members should not publicly attack a Moderator or intentionally undermine a Moderator's actions. It is okay for a member to publicly ask a Moderator why an admonishment was issued; it is okay for a member to publicly disagree with a Moderator. It is not okay for a member to harass, bait, or slander a Moderator. If a member wishes to challenge a Moderator action that involves the member, this challenge must be raised in private via PM or email, not in public.

[Skybird]

I don't get your point?

"Just because it's been on television, radio or in the papers, doesn't make it true."
Works both ways.

[John Channing]

Now since the moderator himself went off topic... LOL How old are you Mr Channing?

To those who are concerned,

I strongly recommend to resist the temptation to (directly or indirectly) target moderators in their moderating function as long as they do not abuse their position. Few things will get you easier into trouble or the thread locked.

Members should not publicly attack a Moderator or intentionally undermine a Moderator's actions. It is okay for a member to publicly ask a Moderator why an admonishment was issued; it is okay for a member to publicly disagree with a Moderator. It is not okay for a member to harass, bait, or slander a Moderator. If a member wishes to challenge a Moderator action that involves the member, this challenge must be raised in private via PM or email, not in public.

Listen to this man. He knows of what he speaks.

I am rapidly posing my patience with this thread and a few of the people involved. I am also getting angry, which is something a moderator shouldn't do. But there you are.

So here it is for the last time.

If you have something new on this subject to post then by all means do.

Otherwise I strongly suggest that some people back off.

JCC

[ThirteenthHouR]

The owner of this site asked for credible sources on a previous occassion.

Although my Tech credibility actually out weighs that of Newsweek etc. The sources have been provided in many places. Including the findings concerning Piracy by Harvard and UNC (A report commission by the industry).

Also Anyone who actually listened to the Cybershack interview, will be aware that Dennis (Starforce) made himself look like an idiot. When you get asked a direct question you do not reel out the previous comapany spiel as even 10 year old can see through that.

As I keep saying, the technical problems are well known, documented and even proven to the point where in Ubisofts case they issued payment in kind

I.E. 4x latest PS2 title games. For the Hardware failure caused to a Plextor drive by Security Technologies (Starforce Virtual IDE Protection Driver).

No company accepts liability unless its proven beyond doubt.


So did SH3 sell well because of Starforce, well quite simply no it didn't it sold well because its an excellent game.

btw interesting ISP that www.arcor.de, Gizzmoe maybe I should introduce myself by my old handle.

I am the Original Z3rO CooL , the first King on iNet. These days I wear a white hat and work closely with the authorities.

Those of you who know of me, You now know that when I say my credibiity precedes me its not just hot air.

(no I didn't crash all those systems, that is just a bit of fictional fun for Hollywood)

before you say it I already know that Ice Lord has been using my previous handle for black hat stuff.

[Onkel Neal]

Ok... let me explain this slowly and carefully.

This thread started out about the possibility that Silent Hunter 3 was successful because of Starforce. I knew we were in trouble at that point.

It took a grand total of 6 posts for the Starforce Jihadists to yank it completely off topic and begin the 9 gazillionth rehash of the same old same old.

Now we have accusations about Subsim moderators making threats, being called childish, and the ever popular "you prove it.. no you prove it".

If the discussion does not become civil and adult right now it goes bye-bye and then you will have to start a whole new Starforce thread!

Geeze... some days this is like Daycare, without the money!


JCC

John's right. Let's take this down a notch, ok guys?

[ThirteenthHouR]

Now since the moderator himself went off topic... LOL How old are you Mr Channing?

To those who are concerned,

I strongly recommend to resist the temptation to (directly or indirectly) target moderators in their moderating function as long as they do not abuse their position. Few things will get you easier into trouble or the thread locked.

Members should not publicly attack a Moderator or intentionally undermine a Moderator's actions. It is okay for a member to publicly ask a Moderator why an admonishment was issued; it is okay for a member to publicly disagree with a Moderator. It is not okay for a member to harass, bait, or slander a Moderator. If a member wishes to challenge a Moderator action that involves the member, this challenge must be raised in private via PM or email, not in public.

Listen to this man. He knows of what he speaks.

I am rapidly posing my patience with this thread and a few of the people involved. I am also getting angry, which is something a moderator shouldn't do. But there you are.

So here it is for the last time.

If you have something new on this subject to post then by all means do.

Otherwise I strongly suggest that some people back off.

JCC

Dude its an honest question, you spoke as if you had some superiority on the matter, so SC asked you how old you are.

I am assuming you thought you where dealing with some little script kiddie trolls who did not know any better.

SC up until his retirement was a front man in Broadcasting. Personally my tech knowledge is such that Hollywood chose to use some of my handles in the most famous Fictional Hacking film of all time (Although to be more acurate its Cracking and phreaking, but what the hell its Hollywood, who has ever known them to read a dictionary)

So you get angry, who does it hurt?

It won't bother us, as we already own higher profile and larger forums than Subsim.

It will hurt the subsim users as they will not get the tech support that currently only we are supplying, heck even Starforce quote me on the fixes for their problems, http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=456&st=20&p=2624&#entry2624

I am not saying to silence Gizzmoe, just have word in his ear and point out that for the sake of this site that he needs to back off and stop inciting flame wars.

Personally I hope it was not him involved in the Death threats as he would be facing serious criminal charges, but with him being one of the few people that has SC's private Telephone number as well as being so openly anti SC, Its does make him suspect number 1.


If you don't believe me about his incitement take a step back and read this thread!




The comments elsewhere about thess forums and the Gizzmoe responses are unrepeatable here, the mildest one I have seen is "That guy just does not know when to STFU" although it was that presented in that more polite manner.

I am all for freedom of speech, but he really does cross the line, time and time again between being a good moderator and being a Troll.

If you want to ban me and kill this thread for me talking the truth (as I always do) then so be it......

As I said its not me who loses out.

[SUBMAN1]

Read this story at least the dreaded Starforce has one thing going for it, it's tough to crack... story here (http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?c=83&id=818)

Our worst enemy may turn out to be an ally after all if the extra revenue has swung the decision on making SH4!

All rubbish. I have SHIII installed and it is not using Starforce. It is just marketing propoganda. The reason SHIII sold so well is because some suit decided to let the devlopment team do its job for once and produce a top notch game.

-S

PS. The type of people that buy this type of game typically don't pirate either.

[ThirteenthHouR]

A very good point subman, although as the factual figures show very few peeps actually do pirate anyway. (The real issue is the same as it has always been. 'Bootleggers', but they can't sell new legislation on the backs of that or justify extortionate prices)


However the type of peeps that are into simulations, do tend to respect the sort of work that has gone into a game like this.

To second that, SHIII is an excellent game. That is why it sold.

[VonHelsching]

IMHO, this thread has passed the limit where it will provide useful information to the readers.

:/\x:

[VON_CAPO]

IMHO, this thread has passed the limit where it will provide useful information to the readers.

:/\x:
:yep: :/\chop

[Gizzmoe]

but with him being one of the few people that has SC's private Telephone number as well as being so openly anti SC, Its does make him suspect number 1.

If I were anti-SC I wouldn´t have cared about what he thinks and I certainly wouldn´t have called him that day the article on Tomshardware.com came out to calm things down. He accused me of threatening him on Subsim.com, then he hung up on me. I called him immediately after that and he didn´t pick up the phone. Then we had a non-hostile conversation via PM.

He gave me his phonenumber back in October, we talked for hours several times, also about private things. It raised my phone bills quite a bit, as I´m unimployed he offered to send me money to pay parts of my phone bill, which was really nice of him, but I don´t wanted the money. He considered me a friend and so did I, I´ve invited him to my home if he ever comes to Germany. All that does make me pretty pro-SC.

Being pro-Larry on a personal, private level doesn´t mean that I cannot ask questions here. If something seems questionable I try to find out more. If I get a satisfying reply, ok, if not, well, then I start to have doubts.

[STEED]

Time for a vote :hmm:

[ThirteenthHouR]

but with him being one of the few people that has SC's private Telephone number as well as being so openly anti SC, Its does make him suspect number 1.

If I were anti-SC I wouldn´t have cared about what he thinks and I certainly wouldn´t have called him that day the article on Tomshardware.com came out to calm things down. He accused me of threatening him on Subsim.com, then he hung up on me. I called him immediately after that and he didn´t pick up the phone. Then we had a non-hostile conversation via PM.

He gave me his phonenumber back in October, we talked for hours several times, also about private things. It raised my phone bills quite a bit, as I´m unimployed he offered to send me money to pay parts of my phone bill, which was really nice of him, but I don´t wanted the money. He considered me a friend and so did I, I´ve invited him to my home if he ever comes to Germany. All that does make me pretty pro-SC.

Being pro-Larry on a personal, private level doesn´t mean that I cannot ask questions here. If something seems questionable I try to find out more. If I get a satisfying reply, ok, if not, well, then I start to have doubts.

No worries dude, but some of your comments where getting out of order and contradicting previous ones.

As I have said before where possible we give full details on what we say, on some occassions our hands are tied as to what we can dislose.

THis can be because.

1. The information would be dangerous to release without a workaround being available.

2. A company/Comporation states something off the record and it would damage their business if we dislcosed what they said (That is alwaysa difficult one, where you have to weigh up the right so the organisations against that of the end users)


3. Technical areas where the information is vague, as an enigineer with many years experieince I am aware that we work on probabilites. As in ask any engineer "Do you do something because you are 100% certain or because on the balance of probabilities you think the issue may be something"? If they are honest they will admit its the balance of probabilities as most thigs are pure trial and error.

Quite simply, where software/hardware interaction is concerned it is not an exact science. THere are just to many variabled involved for it to be. Yes we work withint he constraints of hardware but at any one time anything up to 100,000+ things can clash. If they didn't us engineers would never get any work :)


So when dealing with software like SF. It does not take a genius to understand that Dennis is blatently lieing when he says there are no issues with Security Technoligies Software running in Ring 0.

Why do I keep coming back to Ring 0?

Wel quite simply whilst peeps are shouting about various Software conlicts and hardware failure, they fail to recognise that the most serious issue is this use of Ring 0.

Nobody with an ounce of sense will ever run anything in Ring 0 in this manner because the Security issues are well documented. As are the hardware/software conflicts. (That is without even looking at Security Technologies Software). It's beena proven fact for many years. As I have mentioned before this is why Microsoft spent so much time and money plugging the Ring 0 hole in the first place. (One thing you can be sure of Microsoft will not do anything unless they really have to, maybe now you will realise how serious this is)

Since Security Technologies where willing to lie about this, this made me dig deaper as to what was really going on.

1. Interference, monitoring and blocking of section of the ATAPI system.

2. Low level access to the drive, in many cases causing conflicts with firmware (For calibrating spin speed, data rates to verify genuine pressed media) a lot of drives wil not support this level of access.

3. Interference.. monitoring and blocking of the ATAPI filters section fo the registry.

4. The use of IDE streams to Block, SCSI and SATA data streams (THis causes hardware/software conflict).

5. Constant running blocking of Alcohol 120% daemon tools, Nero (Various modules), Loggers, decompilers etc.


If we talking about the latest £1500+ development platform software then I could understand this level of protection, but for a game that has shelf life of about 6 months. Its just overkill.

Now an interesting point, prior to SF technical problems related to bugs in the games. Now 96% of Technical problems end users have are relating to the DRM's such as SF.

One could argue, that developers where doing a better job in Hacking the code in the games hence the reduction in game related tech problems. However the report of tech problems remains the same level, the other 96% of an increase is on top of the normal tech issues.

As SC posted before, it is interesting that companies that have invested in such overkill type protection like SF have taken a large dip in their share values on the stock exchange.

This may be a coincidence or the use of SF, may be a last ditched attempt to claw back more money by organisations that are going under, either way it is an interesting observation. Of this correlation between SF and Stock share prices.

Are Ubisoft in financial difficulties?

[ThirteenthHouR]

Slightly off topic, but I guess my comment about "are Ubisoft in financial difficulties?" has struck a raw nerve somewhere.

This was what I was met by when I went to log into Ubisoft forums after my recent stint in hospital (Renal Colic, man i wouldn't wish that pain on anybody) Anyway gettting back to the matter at hand.

Error

-- Account Suspended: Your account has been suspended for the following reason:

Terms of Use violations For not following the instructions of authorized personnel on the Sites: Failure to bring sig file into compliance with forum expectations. For behavior that harassed, threatened, embarrassed, or caused distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to another Member or Guest: litigation against moderator, with possible action against Ubisoft. For promoting Communications or content that is illegal: sig file link to site associated with private organization commonly held to support hacking and cracking activity.

close this window

I created another account for the purposes of asking some of the moderators that I know, what the heck was going on.

A few seconds after I read the replies in which they where going to ask about I was greeted by this.



Error

-- Account Suspended: Your account has been suspended for the following reason:

Ban-evasion from CM-ban


I did get onto their press office to find out what the heck was going on and why a Community Manager was making slanderous comments about NGH and R-Force. (Guess what they are all in Paris for the Weekend, as is the Senior Community Manager).

First they ban me, then apologise saying it was a technical error, now they ban me and make slanderous comments. I wonder what they will blame it on this time, since this is coming from a Community Manager, who will not name themsleves or why they are making slanderous comments.

As you can see here even peeps oposed to my arguments about SF have had some comments to say about this: http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/7031018114/p/11

They seem to think this is really out of order.

Are Ubisoft really that scared that they have to resort to slanderous comments?