England and the EU [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

STEED

02-22-06, 09:40 AM

sik1977

02-22-06, 04:38 PM

First up we no longer live in a United Kingdom thanks to the EU, England has been split up into regions and it’s in place now. The EU has passed more laws than we have in England in the last 700 years of democracy they are being process so fast they don’t even debate it anymore; a nod of the head done next.

The EU has done nothing for England apart from passing laws against us. So why are we still a member of this corrupt organisation what’s it’s peruse being here and I mean the true reason why it’s here. As for the rest of Europe has the EU been a good thing or a bad thing for you?

I wasn't born in England or live there presently, but I have studied and lived there in the recent past. So I hope you don't mind my giving my opinion on this topic (I have done law from London and EU was one of my core subjects - but my response is not a legal one per se).

Britain acceded to the EU by its own will (i.e., law passed by the parliament) in 1972 or so. In theory, Britain can repeal the said law/act of parliament and cancel its membership of the EU club. But, despite all the negatives you spelt out above in your post, and perhaps many more you left out, there are so many benefits which you either don't know or are not personally bothered about. I will list only two:

1. First is the 'US' problem. Britain is no longer the great empire, nor is it the largest economy in the world or in Europe nor the strongest military machine. So in order to compete it needs the help of the EU club which together has the power of competing head-to-head (on various levels) with US (not militarily though). In simple words its about money. Check your Tesco purchases for labels such as 'produce of EU' or the like - basically that means cheaper goods and better revenues as compared to it being produced in Britain and with no trade boundries within the member states, you are free to get your tomatoes from Italy and wine from France without paying them a penny in customs duty and vice versa.

2. Second is purely political. Britain cannot now withdraw from the EU and leave it all to the French and the Germans who will only be so happy to oust Britain from the exclusive club. They can isolate Britain from trade etc. from within mainland Europe and more importantly make Britian even less significant then it is now on the international political scene. Remember, old rivalries never die, the French and the English didn't fight the hudred years war to forget it all or the World Wars etc. - These wars are now fought in the political arena ofcourse, but are nevertheless very important to the concerned nations.

So keeping in view the above, don't you agree that Britain is now in for the long haul and will never give up its EU membership unless it is disolved completely for whatever reason. Otherwise, all the years and money invested in this club, the equity so to speak, will be lost and be taken up happily by the other big players.

P.s' BTW not all laws passed by the EU are against you. UK didnt have any Human Rights legislation prior to being forced by EU directives. Moreover, Telecoms is also a sector where EU's policies of liberalization and harmonization have benefitted the UK public, otherwise you'd be cursing BT even more then you do today.

STEED

02-22-06, 05:28 PM

Thanks sik1977, for your comments yes there is a lot more I could have said all true and all bad, it is true are leaders here in the UK will never pull out, it’s that old saying money and power and they can not get enough of it. What will happen a new state will be created and all of us will loose are national identity and that includes Europe.

And the power with the EU Parliament will become more powerful and that’s dangerous, slowly this is happening and most people just don’t care, and when in the end they wake up and see what is happening, it will be too late. Yes it could take another 10 to 30 years but it will happen, we are witnessing the laying of the foundations and I don’t like what I am seeing.

DAB

02-23-06, 09:14 AM

Firstly, the 1903 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica notwithstanding, England is not the United Kingdom - it is only the a constitutent part of a Political Union between Four (now three) countries. There are a number of people in Wales and Scotland who would be flamming by now given the topic title of this thread.

First up we no longer live in a United Kingdom thanks to the EU, England has been split up into regions and it’s in place now. The EU has passed more laws than we have in England in the last 700 years of democracy they are being process so fast they don’t even debate it anymore; a nod of the head done next.

There are two points here. Firstly the Electoral Regions. In the Masterict Treaty, a new body was established called the committee of the Regions which meats in Brussels to evaluate how EU legislation will effect individuals and communities at a Sub-National level. In the United Kingdom, the government had previously worked upon the County level - but decided this was not efficent enough to comply with the provisions of the treaty - so in 1994 the Regions of England were created, representing different economic zones.

In the same year the 1994 European Elections took place, which saw a dramatic increase in the number of small parties taking part. Yet despite these parties geting significant proportions of the vote, they failed to gain seats under the old system. So the Conservative Government in England (without EU interfearence) introduced the List system... which was controversal and rejected by the Lords on Six occasions for not being radical enough.

And for a second, lets move on to Devolution in Britain (NOT JUST ENGLAND), it is totally true that the Labour Government have been hipocritical prats in the way that devolution works. The fact that Scotland was given a primary legislative body, whilst Wales was given a Secondary Legislative Assembly (and we had to fight for that) and England nothing was constitutionally dangurous and made things more difficult for the average person to understand. But you can not say that devolution (or UK Federalism) is wrong and will lead up to the UK. England acknowledged that one law would not fit all members of the UK in the Statute of Rhuddlan and again recognised the fact in the Act of Union of 1707. We have never had a system where the law of England was the Law of Wales and later Scotland. That is why legislation pre-devolution for England was always explicit as to whether Wales was included.

Devolution is infact a recognition of reality. Now that most issues are dealt with the Scottish legislative, lets deal with just Wales - which does not have the ability to pass legislation independent of Westminster. In the 2001-2005 parliament, 30 minutes were given over 4 years to debate purely welsh legislation. Democratically that is diabolical, given that Wales like Scotland has its own education system, its own administrative structure, its own LANGUAGE. If a problem in the English Lang National Curriculum emerged pre-devolution, it took months to correct it. Problems with the Welsh Lang National Curriculum were unfixed until devolution.

And it is actually enhancing the United Kingdom. Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National Party are hemoraging seats in the legislatives. Calls for Independence are at their lowest for 80 years. Whilst people still identify themselves as Welsh or Scottish - they are much more likley to call themselves British-Wallian, or Scots-British. In a multicultural Britain, this is a fantastic development. And if England is having its own identy crisis, then that has to be fixed, but don't blame the success of the Welsh and the Scottish - blame a government in Westminster which hasn't given England its voice in the modern Union

Your Second point is on legislation. Do you really think that by leaving the European Union, the legislation will stop. Norway is not in the European Union, yet practically every EU directive passed has to be submitted by its government to its legislative. Dropping out of the EU has been shown to actually increase the burden on Legislatives - not decrease it. The fact is, its part of the nature of Globalisation.

The EU has done nothing for England apart from passing laws against us. So why are we still a member of this corrupt organisation what’s it’s peruse being here and I mean the true reason why it’s here. As for the rest of Europe has the EU been a good thing or a bad thing for you?

I have to ask, which laws. The CAP is the product of French Politics not the EU, and without the EU - we wouldn't have a chance of getting rid of it side side of the next millenium. Those stupid stories put about by UKIP about directives on straight cucumbers etc are actually fabrications or deliberate mis-reading of documents. The Human Rights Act was a welcome contribution to the UK constitution.

The fact that UK small businesses can trade in France, this would be impossible without the EU. The fact that I have freedom of movement throught the Bloc without restriction is a massive benefit to you and I. Under the EU treaties, British Citizens are protected not just by UK representation - but by the Diplomatic and Military Missions of any EU member. That means a EU citizen has consular rights in practically every country in the World - a benifit an American, South African or Australlian would gives their eyes teeth for.

And then there is Economic Intergration...when was the last time there was a major conflict between two EU states. There wasn't one...there can't, every shot fired would do equal damage to the agresser and defender... more realiable then a nuclear deterrent.

And it remains the fact that the only organisation that has ever bettered the United States in a Trade Dispute was the European Union. It happened in 2003 over Steel when the US president decided to introduce protectionist tarrifs on steel production in order to boost his standing in marginal wards. The EU managed to get the US to back down in days. No individual country in the EU has the ability to do that.

Yeah, I can think of poor laws passed. But I can think of many more ones passed in Westminster with no EU input.

Thanks sik1977, for your comments yes there is a lot more I could have said all true and all bad, it is true are leaders here in the UK will never pull out, it’s that old saying money and power and they can not get enough of it. What will happen a new state will be created and all of us will loose are national identity and that includes Europe.

I honestly don't see how. There is only one EU country committed to European Federalism (the creation of a EU state) is Luxumburg... every other state is committed to either an Economic Union (UK's offical position) or a Coalition of Independent States (Eastern European members). The treaties of the Union are written in a way that ensures there is no transfer of sovereignty between member states and the EU bodies. In fact, the EU bodies have no status in International Law... to the extrent that when the Steel crisis in 2003 flaired up, the most difficult part of the EU response was co-ordinating the calling in of 25 American Ambassidors to see various presidents and prime ministers simultaniously - and getting the same message sent across.

The only way that a state could emerge from the EU is by a devistating conflict wiping out most National Structures - and what are the odds of that...

And the power with the EU Parliament will become more powerful and that’s dangerous, slowly this is happening and most people just don’t care, and when in the end they wake up and see what is happening, it will be too late. Yes it could take another 10 to 30 years but it will happen, we are witnessing the laying of the foundations and I don’t like what I am seeing.

Because the EU parliament is so powerful at the moment. It has absolutely no powers to propose leglislation at all (this power ironically lies with the less democratic EU Commision), and can only ammend legislation of a 'social-economic'. Indeed it only has the right of consultation for issues relating to the Judiciary and Policing. That is hardly a powerful legislative - infact its powers are pitiful and if you want an accountable body - you are better off increasing the powers of the Parliament at the expense of the Council of Ministers and Commision.

STEED

02-23-06, 09:40 AM

DAB

02-23-06, 09:55 AM

But I can think of many more ones passed in Westminster with no EU input.

Did you know 80% of the running of England, Scotland and Wales is from the EU Parliament we are losing are identity and that includes yourself in Wales. The EU Parliament is corrupt to the core.

I have nothing against Europe and it's People. My gripe is with that EU Parliament.

Whats the source... and what type of legislation is that. Correcting spelling errors (extreme example) is hardly dangurous.

I think i've answered the point though in my re-edit of my first post (which i've marked in Red). I was writing that to make the point more general and relevent to arguments that are going to be posted later.

The tone if aggressive isn't directed at you STEED. Its just me getting ready for a fight later

STEED

02-23-06, 10:17 AM

Whats the source... and what type of legislation is that.

Source the EU_Constitution

Plenty of books out there to read on the legislation
to name one (England our England By Vernon Coleman)

Get Reading the best way to find out what is going on. :)

DAB

02-23-06, 10:48 AM