Poland Will Not Permit Iran To Research Holocaust

[STEED]

Last week Iran's ambassador to Lisbon, who in the past served as a diplomat in Poland, said in an interview on Portuguese radio that according to his calculations based on a visit to the camp, now a museum, it would have taken the Nazis 15 years to burn the corpses of 6 million people.



Iran you are sick :nope: :nope: :nope:

[The Avon Lady]

If you have any inkling of which site you have linked to, and if you read the book review after the news item about Poland, I think you're the one that's sick.

[STEED]

Anyone who denies the Holocaust is sick, so why did Iran what to go Poland simply pervert history. And by the way I am not sick a couple of my friends are Jewish.

[The Avon Lady]

Anyone who denies the Holocaust is sick, so why did Iran what to go Poland simply pervert history. And by the way I am not sick a couple of my friends are Jewish.
Well I'm glad to see your response but still not the page nor the site you linked to. Or haven't you figured that out by now? :roll:

[STEED]

I have removed the link just for you.

[The Avon Lady]

I have removed the link just for you.
It should be for everybody, including yourself.

Here's a replacement link, sans the holocaust revisionist book promotion:

Auschwitz to bar entrance to Iranian probe team (http://www.ejpress.org/article/6056).

[STEED]

I here by apologise to everyone

[TteFAboB]

They underestimate Hitler & Co.

I understand, inferiority complex. They can't admit Hitler killed all those Jews because they'd never be able to top that number, they are forever denied the title of Greatest Jew Killer of All Time, and they can't live with that, infidels can't be superior in anything, and since they consider a massive Holocaust to be a desirable and remarkable event, they simply musn't accept Hitler's superiority in that, and need to lower the numbers, untill they reject it completely as a myth, then they can start appearing in the Top 100 Jews Killers list.

[Type XXIII]

The ambassador says it would take 15 years to burn the corpses of six million jews. He's not technically denying the Holocaust, only questioning the number of jews killed. Is that wrong in itself? Six million is an estimate, and it might be wrong. His estimate is probably not that far off, but he is ignoring other aspects of the Holocaust. A considerable amount of the Holocaust victims were not killed in death camps, but in summary executions and slaughterings in the ghettoes. Also, many corpses weren't burned.

Of course the actual number isn't really interesting. It doesn't really matter whether two or ten millions were killed. It was a massive genocide either way. (Though perhaps not the biggest in history.)

On another note, it is still wrong not to admit those Iranians to research the Holocaust. How are they supposed to change their opinions when they aren't allowed to see for themselves? Won't denying them this opportunity make it seem like Poland has something to hide? Is that the signals we wish to give the Iranians?

[TteFAboB]

The reason behind the "questioning" is not to find the truth, but to go back to Iran with solid proof and evidence that the Holocaust never took place, "questioning" the number is just an excuse, for their greater goal, just like the Mohammed cartoons first presented in Syria had a few extra additions, oops! Who put these 3 false cartoons in my suitcase?!

If you look at the academical production of Iran, you'll see that "research" is not their forte, other than nuclear, that is.

The last thing Iranian "researchers" want by "questioning" the numbers is to change their opinion, or do you believe it's an innocent study to verify and inform the Iranian public of the contrary? Did you forgot Ahmedinejah got elected by preaching the Holocaust was a myth? Do you believe, even if the Iranians were honest, that they would have a voice back in Iran? That Iranians all over would suddenly stop, rethink and accept: "It's true! It's true! The Holocaust is true! Our Researchers failed to prove it's false! We can stop running the Holocaust-is-a-lie cartoons on our newspapers now!"

On yet another note, do you wish to give the Iranians the signal that you are open to "question" the numbers and do further "research" into the Holocaust? Because it has not yet been fully researched?! And there may be new facts that will prove a fraud here and a fraud there? Do you wish to tell Iranians that the European academy is incompetent and that it takes a bunch of fanatics to figure out the truth? Do you want to accept the aid of people that don't allow its population access to knowledge and freedom of thinking, a free-flow of ideas?

[Type XXIII]

You sound like you're afraid they'll actually find proof of that Holocaust never happened, or that it was overblown. If they wish to fabricate proof, they can do so without even visiting Poland.

What would be wrong with inviting them to look at the death camps, showing them the evidences, and letting them search for evidence that further their cause in vain? Granted, the Iranian people would be told a different tale, but maybe, just maybe, some of the researchers that actually did visit Poland would start to wonder.

I'm not saying that letting them in would solve everything, just that it is better than not letting them in, and thus making the impression that there is something to hide.

And why should we be afraid of questions if we are certain of the answers? And how can we critizise them for concealing information to their population, when we are concealing information for their government?

[I-25]

the way i see it if there nothing to hide why keep em out?

[TteFAboB]

You sound like you're afraid they'll actually find proof of that Holocaust never happened, or that it was overblown. If they wish to fabricate proof, they can do so without even visiting Poland.

Almost, my point is that they will present a pre-conceived case, regardless of the proofs they find. They just have to tie the knots and use the evidence accordingly, what suits their case gets in, extermination sites that no longer exist for example, and what doesn't suit their case is presented as a lie or a conspiracy. They don't have to go to Poland to find proof either.

They know the Holocaust happened, Ahmedinejah knows the Holocaust happened, the Aiatolah knows the Holocaust happened, hundreds of thousands of Iranians know the Holocaust happened, any Iranian researcher that visited Poland would know beforehand the Holocaust happened. It doesn't matter how much evidence is presented, you're fighting a well-oiled propaganda machine, the Iranians who don't believe the Holocaust happened are like delusional kids who can't face the fact Santa Clauss, as in the bearded old man who travels at the speed of light, does not exist. It's a clinical pathology.

If Iranians want to visit Poland, it won't happen under the "Iranian-Research-Mission-to-Prove-the-Holocaust-does-not-exist" label. How about inviting a group of students, the new generation unhappy with their lack of freedom and public floggings for drinking, to research it, instead of an official mission sponsored by the Iranian Foreign Relations ministry? Someone in Europe should actually sponsor that trip, I believe that could be a start to solve everything.

Their government is not even worth of our diplomacy, we have to maintain diplomatic relations with them because we want their Oil, among a few other things (like geopolitical stability and diplomatic continuity), and if anyone is worth of information, it's the people outside the corrupt, populist, dogmatic government. The only information we need to send to their government is the demand to deny them nuclear weapons.

[sik1977]

You sound like you're afraid they'll actually find proof of that Holocaust never happened, or that it was overblown. If they wish to fabricate proof, they can do so without even visiting Poland.

Almost, my point is that they will present a pre-conceived case, regardless of the proofs they find. They just have to tie the knots and use the evidence accordingly, what suits their case gets in, extermination sites that no longer exist for example, and what doesn't suit their case is presented as a lie or a conspiracy. They don't have to go to Poland to find proof either.

They know the Holocaust happened, Ahmedinejah knows the Holocaust happened, the Aiatolah knows the Holocaust happened, hundreds of thousands of Iranians know the Holocaust happened, any Iranian researcher that visited Poland would know beforehand the Holocaust happened. It doesn't matter how much evidence is presented, you're fighting a well-oiled propaganda machine, the Iranians who don't believe the Holocaust happened are like delusional kids who can't face the fact Santa Clauss, as in the bearded old man who travels at the speed of light, does not exist. It's a clinical pathology.

If Iranians want to visit Poland, it won't happen under the "Iranian-Research-Mission-to-Prove-the-Holocaust-does-not-exist" label. How about inviting a group of students, the new generation unhappy with their lack of freedom and public floggings for drinking, to research it, instead of an official mission sponsored by the Iranian Foreign Relations ministry? Someone in Europe should actually sponsor that trip, I believe that could be a start to solve everything.

Their government is not even worth of our diplomacy, we have to maintain diplomatic relations with them because we want their Oil, among a few other things (like geopolitical stability and diplomatic continuity), and if anyone is worth of information, it's the people outside the corrupt, populist, dogmatic government. The only information we need to send to their government is the demand to deny them nuclear weapons.

You didn't really consider what Type XXIII said, instead repeated your earlier stance without consideration for his argument.

Type XIII has already put it very well, but i'll try to put another way. When you talk like you do, you sound very much like the few with vested interests who wish to control the *truth*, and not let your *truth* be open to question or be put to test against any sort of a yardstick. What makes you think you are any better then such regimes, you are guilty of the same sin. Why should we take your word over anothers?? If you can question my faith why can't i question yours?? If you can question our history, why can't we question yours?? Why should you be Mr. Right and we be Mr. Wrong from the outset?? Why should I take your truth about Holocaust when I wasn't there and nor were you??

To resolve any of the above, we need reason and openness... not isolation and rejection. Such attitude will only allow the exploitor with the opportunity they are looking for to further exploit the exploited.

I am not from Iran, but from the region and believe me we don't all have black masks with C4 attached to our chests. And you know what, the common man in our third world countries is too poor to think about or care about holocaust or Nuclear fallout, all the 99% of the poor man wants is to get by the day with some food in his belly.

And please.... enough with the "Their government is not even worth of our diplomacy, we have to maintain diplomatic relations with them because we want their Oil". You don't need to keep repeating how high and mighty you are and how pathetic we all are. Come live here and face the problems we do on daily basis before you brand us all as suicide-Jews-hatting-cartoon-mad-fanatics none of whom *deserve* your *diplomacy* - but thank god for oil :-j

[Skybird]

Guys, why are you even biting for this one? :roll: Must we need to blow up this propaganda coup beyond it's ridiculously small size - by paying attention to it?

[Letum]

Why is holocaust denial such an emotive issue?
Obviously it was a tradgedy of emmense magnitude.
However people will take what ever view they like (even if their views are quite obviously wrong). We can not create a world where everyone shares the same logical views abnout anything, it just isnt possible, there are allways people who will disagree.
It makes them look foolish and lays their motives bare, but is it something we should be angry about?

Please dont get angry of flame me, I am not stateing my point of view and I am not trying to invalidate other peoples point of view by questioning them

[TteFAboB]

How about inviting a group of [Iranian] students(...)

I said that.

I still find it unacceptable to welcome with open arms an official Iranian expedition, considering their reason is not to figure out the truth, mine, theirs, any truth.

Because they don't allow Islam to be put to question, because they don't allow Khomeini to be put to question, who are they to question the European academy? I'm not immune to questioning, they are.

There can be no reason with someone who believes Israel should be erased from the map, there is no openness with a Sharia-Dhimmi believer. The Polish were oppressed enough, don't expect them to welcome an oppressor with open arms.

Unlike you, I share no sympathy for Ahmadinejad and Mr. Bomb Turban above him. They've earned the opporunity to improve the life of many Iranians but they prefer to throw that opportunity away and do the contrary.

Iran wants to research the Holocaust? Send free Iranians, with access to education and the free flow of ideas to study it. Not the denial Zealots.

[sik1977]

How about inviting a group of [Iranian] students(...)

I said that.

I still find it unacceptable to welcome with open arms an official Iranian expedition, considering their reason is not to figure out the truth, mine, theirs, any truth.

Because they don't allow Islam to be put to question, because they don't allow Khomeini to be put to question, who are they to question the European academy? I'm not immune to questioning, they are.

There can be no reason with someone who believes Israel should be erased from the map, there is no openness with a Sharia-Dhimmi believer. The Polish were oppressed enough, don't expect them to welcome an oppressor with open arms.

Unlike you, I share no sympathy for Ahmadinejad and Mr. Bomb Turban above him. They've earned the opporunity to improve the life of many Iranians but they prefer to throw that opportunity away and do the contrary.

Iran wants to research the Holocaust? Send free Iranians, with access to education and the free flow of ideas to study it. Not the denial Zealots.

In a free society why should a select few, of whatever description, liberal or mad/extreme, should be allowed to question anything. Why should just the Iranian students fitting a certain profile be allowed to research holocaust. A truth backed by undeniable proof is the same towards all who look into it. So what are you so concerned about or trying to protect.

Yes its true that in our closed societies you cannot question many things, but why do you wish to replicate that in your open society with free speech and' all. Who can stop you from questioning Islam in your open society, and you shall question it to your heart's content. Are you saying your open society suffers from the same dual-standards our closed societies suffer from??!! censorship for the disliked or the dis-illusioned!! Why do u feel you need to compete with a closed society?? evil-for-evil??

An open society shall be open to all. If it allows cartoons of Muhammed, it cannot stop cartoons of Jesus. So if you wish to allow holocaust to be researched/questioned, then anyone should be allowed to question it. Your answer will be the same to both if it is the undeniable truth. You cannot put conditions that only those will be allowed to question/research who will believe/accept our answer.

[TteFAboB]

Actually, the select few are the vast majority. This majority is alseep right now, dazed, hypnotized. Good, nice, decent people who are not Jihadists, Islamists, fascists, etc.. People who would be very well glad to reproduce the Holocaust are not welcome.

The point is that it is pointless to accept a commission so blatantly against the reality of the Holocaust, not because of what they have to find or say in Europe. It's what they'll bring back to Iran that matters, a few cartoons with 3 extra ones allowed masses to be manouvered and cause havoc all over, should Iranians be allowed to go back to their home with a false theory proving the Holocaust never existed if it can't be contested, by Europeans or locals, and might be used to fuel even more chaos?

To use your example, think of a Polish comission traveling to Iran in the name of peace and visit nuclear energy facilities to research and question Iranian nuclear capabilities and come back to Europe stating they've seen nuclear weapon production lines instead and that Iran should be bombed to ashes.

This is the case here, an official Iranian comission is far from being interested in a proper calculation of the Holocaust.

An open society is not open to all, they are very well closed to anyone who wants to destroy it, if relations are not reciprocal then the door is shut.

So, again:

You sound like you're afraid they'll actually find proof of that Holocaust never happened, or that it was overblown. If they wish to fabricate proof, they can do so without even visiting Poland.

How are they supposed to change their opinions when they aren't allowed to see for themselves? Won't denying them this opportunity make it seem like Poland has something to hide?

Granted, the Iranian people would be told a different tale

Just like they imported the cartoons, a visit to Poland would be presented as the ultimate, hard-proof, extensively researched, evidence that the Holocaust did not exist, nothing would be explained and the Iranian population would be denied the truth. I'm afraid of how many more people they could mobilize with something like that. Allowing an Iranian comission to visit Poland would be like stabbing yourself in the gut.

[STEED]

Iran leader faces Holocaust case

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4741042.stm

I wonder what will happen :hmm:

[Dan D]

Criminal prosecution against Mr Ahmadinejad, the guy that can’t afford a tie, for his Holocaust denial?

a) by Iranian prosecuters: unlikely that the Iranian Penal code prohibits Holocaust Denial, otherwise there will probably be an amnesty law soon, that allows Mr Ahmadinejad to say such things, so: no.

b) prosecution in front of the International Crime Court: no, already not because Iran has not signed the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/asp/statesparties.html

c) prosecution in Germany, in other words, will German prosecutors arrest him at the airport, if he decides to visit Germany: again no.

Mr Ahmadinejad is not German citizen , nor did he deny the Holocaust on German soil.
The German penal code does not apply for statements he as an Iranian made in Iran.

The German International Crime penal code does not apply either. This code is dealing with war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. For such crimes against the international community, there is no diplomatic immunity.
To deny Holocaust is no war crime, nor a crime against humanity ( in the legal sense of the term) and no genocide itself.

The idea that Germany has universal jurisdiction for all crimes world wide is somewhat off-point.
The Israeli lawyer has not understood the International Criminal Law.
But at least people talk about that issue. That is good.
Anyhow: Fak uff, Mr Ahmadinejad, sit-down comedian and would-be second-hand car dealer.

[Skybird]

Criminal prosecution against Mr Ahmadinejad, the guy that can’t afford a tie, for his Holocaust denial?

a) by Iranian prosecuters: unlikely that the Iranian Penal code prohibits Holocaust Denial, otherwise there will probably be an amnesty law soon, that allows Mr Ahmadinejad to say such things, so: no.

b) prosecution in front of the International Crime Court: no, already not because Iran has not signed the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/asp/statesparties.html

c) prosecution in Germany, in other words, will German prosecutors arrest him at the airport, if he decides to visit Germany: again no.

Mr Ahmadinejad is not German citizen , nor did he deny the Holocaust on German soil.
The German penal code does not apply for statements he as an Iranian made in Iran.

The German International Crime penal code does not apply either. This code is dealing with war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. For such crimes against the international community, there is no diplomatic immunity.
To deny Holocaust is no war crime, nor a crime against humanity ( in the legal sense of the term) and no genocide itself.

The idea that Germany has universal jurisdiction for all crimes world wide is somewhat off-point.
The Israeli lawyer has not understood the International Criminal Law.
But at least people talk about that issue. That is good.
Anyhow: Fak uff, Mr Ahmadinejad, sit-down comedian and would-be second-hand car dealer.

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48997