History repeats its self

[Letum]

Please read and understand this before you reply

207BC China
The peasantry are very poor and the rich Qin Dynesty opresses the peasantry with slavery.
They strike out at the Qin Dynesty wich is rich.
Nobles of the "Six Warring States" give them motivation and a vision of a better future.

England 17th Centuary
The English people are very poor and the rich King oppresses the peoples political freedom.
They strike out at the King who is rich.
The Democratic movement gives them motivation and a vision of a ideal future.

Early 20th Centuary Russia
The Russian people are very poor and the rich Czar and Aristocracy opress the peoples political freedom and economy.
They strike out at the Aristocracy who are rich.
The Communist movement gives them motivation and a vision of a ideal future.

1930s Germany
Germany is very poor and the treaty of Versai (sp?) oppress the German economy, millitary and pride.
They strike out at the Jews whom they belive to be rich.
The Natzi party give them motivation and a vision of a ideal future.

The Middle East Early 21st Centuary
The Middle East is poor and corrupt Leaderships oppress the people.
They Strike out at the "west" who are rich.
Islam gives them motivation and a vision of a ideal future

[STEED]

Letum, that’s always been the case we live in an unfair world and it, will get even worse. We may be the top dog on this planet (Human race) but we have still much to learn.

[Rotary Crewman]

Lets burn all Korans and cartoon drawing materials.

Then we've solved all the worlds current hot potatoes

[The Avon Lady]

The Middle East is poor
All that oil and nothing to show. :oops: :oops: :oops:

[jumpy]

Hmmm, yeah! check out all of those 'ideal visions of the future' and how they so succesfully came to pass and gave so much benefit to the rowdy, oppressed pesants who were to thick to understand what they were really letting themselves in for by trusting in those who would lead them to so called freedom; yeh leaders guiding the pesantry to freedom from all of lifes little troubles by making them dead... hearing this, all those pesants must be turning in their mass graves right now. :dead:

207BC China - leads eventually to commie dictatorship; kills loads of its people for its brutal ideals (sorry, that's 'cultural revolution' sounds much better when you put it that way).

England 17th Centuary - oliver cromwell, hardly what I'd call a humanitarian; killed those who didn't follow the new ideals.

Early 20th Centuary Russia - commie dictatorship, killed millions (25 million, uncle joe?) of its own people for its brutal ideals.

1930s Germany - declared war on most of the world in the name of national socialism, killed millions of innocent people for its brutal ideals.

The Middle East Early 21st Centuary - religious extreemism and land dispute kills loads of people. Following WW2 there is no other place on earth which has had more continuous violence and bloodshed than the 'holy land' (such an ironic name, at least for an infidel like me). Upshot- kills loads of people for its brutal (holy) ideals.

Are we starting to see a pattern emerging yet?

:hmm:

[Type XXIII]

207BC China - leads eventually to commie dictatorship; kills loads of its people for its brutal ideals (sorry, that's 'cultural revolution' sounds much better when you put it that way).

Yes, the communist China of 1930s-present is obviously a direct result from the revolts 2200 years ago.

Just as the Nazism in Germany was a result of the failed roman conquest and subsim.com's roots can be traced back to Archimedes. :roll:

[Letum]

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever
George Orwell

[jumpy]

207BC China - leads eventually to commie dictatorship; kills loads of its people for its brutal ideals (sorry, that's 'cultural revolution' sounds much better when you put it that way).

Yes, the communist China of 1930s-present is obviously a direct result from the revolts 2200 years ago.

Just as the Nazism in Germany was a result of the failed roman conquest and subsim.com's roots can be traced back to Archimedes. :roll:

ok now you're just taking the p1ss hehe, but you see my point yes? I'm sure you'd agree that history (no matter how ancient) has a strong influence on the cultural and idealogical face of a country in the present?

[Letum]

My point is that where there is depravity and oppression there will be a violent upriseing (Usualy ending in disaster and atrocitys)
It happens regardless of religion

[Etienne]

"The struggle of the classes propel history"

Loose quotation from memory.

[SUBMAN1]

I think some people are smoking crack :P because we already are a democracy over here. It is the dictators in the Holy Land that will need to worry about the uprising, not the west.

The West wants a successful and rich middle east since that in turns brings stability, so I don't think for one second that we would want to hold them down and keep them poor - it is their dictator rulers who are doing that for them.

-S

PS. THe bad news is that the west is caught up in the BS that is going on out there.

[SUBMAN1]

One more thing - It won't be Islam or Muslims in general that will bring down the west - the west is already bringing its self down.

One - through declining morality (Who wants to fight for a country that you really don't care about in the first place? It may not be long till an invader just walks unimpedded across ones border - just like they did in past history for the very same reason)

Two - THrough technology - specifically Nanotechnology (A time that is fast approaching - 2015??) which will render Americas monetary world monopoly virtually non existant overnight. The term given to this period that is soon to be upon us is called "Post Monetary Society". Of course they will want to keep this out of the hands of your local terrorist gang because it will give them the ability to kill or destroy every last man, woman, and child on the planet 20 times over in as small a package as a suitcase.

Some interesting times are upon us.

-S

[Abraham]

@ SUBMAN1:
If the thread name is correct ("History repeats itself") it would mean that when the West-European values are threathened, Western Europe will see the danger and fight for freedom again, probably with the help of the United States.
As far as point two, could you elaborate? I don't understand how a packedge as small as a suitcase could kill everybody on the planet 20 times over.
:o

[Happy Times]

My point is that where there is depravity and oppression there will be a violent upriseing (Usualy ending in disaster and atrocitys)
It happens regardless of religion Your solution is?

[Kalach]

@ SUBMAN1:
If the thread name is correct ("History repeats itself") it would mean that when the West-European values are threathened, Western Europe will see the danger and fight for freedom again, probably with the help of the United States.
As far as point two, could you elaborate? I don't understand how a packedge as small as a suitcase could kill everybody on the planet 20 times over.
:o

*Puts on his crazy scientist goggles*

Well if we create tiny microscopic robots (nanotech) they will be able to work en masse to build things - including themselves. If a few of them started to replicate their 'species' they could become like a huge virus and destroy everything in their path, if they were programed to do so I would assume.
Perhaps even worse would be if we also created a true 'artificial intelligence' and these little robots got upset that they were poor and opressed and decided to take over the world :hmm: .
Either way they would be much more dangerous than nuclear weapons.
It might sound like some crazy sci-fi plot, but so would the modern world to someone from even 100 years ago :know: .

[Letum]

My point is that where there is depravity and oppression there will be a violent upriseing (Usualy ending in disaster and atrocitys)
It happens regardless of religion Your solution is?
http://www.sayagain.co.uk/b3tapix/images/explanation3.gif

[CCIP]

:o

:huh:

:up:

[Oberon]

:huh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :huh:

[Type XXIII]

"The struggle of the classes propel history"

Loose quotation from memory.

That would be Karl Marx, I think.

IF Islam brings down the weat, I think it would be through immigration. Immigration in it self is not the problem. The problem, as I see it, is that muslims are, as a cause of their religion, hard-working people and by working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for minimal wages, they will out-compete us lazy westerns.

There are, as I can see it, three ways to solve this problem.
1. The capitalist way. Work as hard as them.
2. The nationalistic way. Throw them out.
3. The socialistic way. Force them to work less.

I vote for option three.

[Gorduz]

typical norwegian way :).

[Scion]

"The struggle of the classes propel history"

Loose quotation from memory.

That would be Karl Marx, I think.

IF Islam brings down the weat, I think it would be through immigration. Immigration in it self is not the problem. The problem, as I see it, is that muslims are, as a cause of their religion, hard-working people and by working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for minimal wages, they will out-compete us lazy westerns.

There are, as I can see it, three ways to solve this problem.
1. The capitalist way. Work as hard as them.
2. The nationalistic way. Throw them out.
3. The socialistic way. Force them to work less.

I vote for option three.

Problems:

3. Everyone will be lazy...
2. You cant throw out people once you've accepted them...
1. Everyone will be productive...

Option 1 by far...

[Type941]

ah... a rather dramatic generalization, don't you think? you wen't from a classic class strugle within a country to a clash of civilizations. I think you are reaching.

[Type XXIII]

Problems:

3. Everyone will be lazy...
2. You cant throw out people once you've accepted them...
1. Everyone will be productive...

Option 1 by far...

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

[Oberon]

Problems:

3. Everyone will be lazy...
2. You cant throw out people once you've accepted them...
1. Everyone will be productive...

Option 1 by far...

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

http://www.reallivepreacher.com/images/shining.jpg

"HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERE'S JOHNNY!!"

[Hitman]

@Letum

Not bad, but Aristoteles already said that long ago ... check his theory of the cyclical repetition of political regimes, from Kingdom to Tyranny, to olygarchy, to democracy, to tyranny and back to Kingdom :)

[captainclasp]

Each instance originally given points to repression by ones own government - as seen currently in places in both the middle and far east (think North Korea, China..). In China we see the revolt already occuring slowly, in Taiwan.

The difference between history and the current middle east is that those in power are using a socially accepted belief system - islam - to deflect the ire of the citizenry. Historically - a regime is safe in war as the nation or community has a "common foe", this has also been used historically by regime's in trouble. Ultimately, the regimes fail to deliver the promises they made "if only the people would support" the regime, resulting in the eventual overthrow of the regime.

Good Hunting.
CC

[Wim Libaers]

"The struggle of the classes propel history"

Loose quotation from memory.

That would be Karl Marx, I think.

IF Islam brings down the weat, I think it would be through immigration. Immigration in it self is not the problem. The problem, as I see it, is that muslims are, as a cause of their religion, hard-working people and by working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for minimal wages, they will out-compete us lazy westerns.

There are, as I can see it, three ways to solve this problem.
1. The capitalist way. Work as hard as them.
2. The nationalistic way. Throw them out.
3. The socialistic way. Force them to work less.

I vote for option three.

Won't work. Slight generalization follows.

First, they are generally underqualified for many jobs. Then, the jobs they can do are done illegally, to avoid income tax AND get unemployment payment at the same time. If a government office threatened they would stop the payments unless they could prove they're was looking for a job this would, of course, reduce the time to do non-official jobs, and therefore changing from typical Western dress to something Bin Laden would use for his speeches, to prevent being hired, would be done.

(less hypothetical than the wording might suggest)

[SUBMAN1]

@ SUBMAN1:
If the thread name is correct ("History repeats itself") it would mean that when the West-European values are threathened, Western Europe will see the danger and fight for freedom again, probably with the help of the United States.
As far as point two, could you elaborate? I don't understand how a packedge as small as a suitcase could kill everybody on the planet 20 times over.
:o

What you ask is impossible for me to elaborate on without getting technical. Let's put it this way, the world as you know it is soon to be at an end by our own doing. NASA will probably build the first replicator in their quest for carbon nanotubes and their goal of an elevator to space (no joke) - http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast07sep_1.htm - Anyway, play the game Deus Ex (the original) if you want an inkling of how someone could do exactly what I describe (Can someone make a worthy sequal to this game PLEASE!!!???). Everything in that game was funny to me in a way, because it is actually based on fact.

Here are some of the Nanotech pioneers and some of them have given up research because they don't want nanotech and have already peered into the close future:

http://www.crnano.org/dangers.htm

Little do people realize that they are sitting on the doorstep to an unknown future. It is actually scary!!! :cry: Terrorists are not your real problem, this is. Imagine manipulating an atom and turning it into anything you want!!! Imagine the control a select few could weild on the many?

-S

PS. Did I mention that the complexity to build nanotech is about as complex as building a Boeing 747? It is only a matter of time.

PPS. Good things can come out of this too - imagine Star Treks holodeck! You are also on the doorstep of this becoming a reality!

PPPS. Anyone watch Terminator 2 or 3? Liquid metal machines like that is not far off. Skynet, the god and destroyer of all mankind! Armagedden anyone?

PPPPS. Imagine a terrorist with this kind of technology? The bible mentions that of two men who the world will never catch who spread locusts on the landscape, and all will run from their destruction. Maybe it is referencing Bin Laden spreading Nanobots that destroy entire cities? A nanobot in this form is very similar to a locusts in the destruction it will cause, only entire objects and entire cities would be destroyed.

PPPPPS. The worst idea yet - the power of god himself in the hands of man himself. Only one possible outcome - undeniable suppression and control since everyone knows ultimate power corrupts.