Sea Wolves - Submarines on Hunt

[spulman]

Has anyone seen this new download for Silent Hunter 111 called Sea Wolves - Submarines on Hunt?? It claims to enhance the game with improved graphics, sounds, missions and scripts..among others. It costs about £20 as a download..

[The Avon Lady]

Click on the pic:

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3582/booycotsig8hg.gif (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=40628)

[Dowly]

Ok, let´s see. The clock is 16:32, where I live.... If I check this thread again at 18:00, there should be a full-scale flame war going on... :hmm:


CAN´T WAIT!!! :rock:

[STEED]

X1 would I buy it NO :nope: its a con ripping off other people's work boycot it :/\chop

This appears to be a case of stolen intellectual property. The subsim mod community put these ideas out there for free. Subsimmers are generally outraged and there is a strong move to boycott this expansion.


the quote is found at this link
http://dominicobaggio.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1131811480

[Ducimus]

Has anyone seen this new download for Silent Hunter 111 called Sea Wolves - Submarines on Hunt?? It claims to enhance the game with improved graphics, sounds, missions and scripts..among others. It costs about £20 as a download..


Since no one has come out and said it, ill say it as concisely with as few words as possible.

The Expansion / download to which you refer to is a collection of mods that they most likley just got off the internet, ( most of them made by people here); repackaged for commercial profit.

There is nothing in that "sea wolves" that you cannot obtain from here, absolutley free. Again, because they are mods made by the community, not X1 software. Hence you'll see alot of signiture pics like this one:

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3582/booycotsig8hg.gif

[Nippelspanner]

Ok, let´s see. The clock is 16:32, where I live.... If I check this thread again at 18:00, there should be a full-scale flame war going on... :hmm:


CAN´T WAIT!!! :rock:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Sulikate]

Ok, let´s see. The clock is 16:32, where I live.... If I check this thread again at 18:00, there should be a full-scale flame war going on... :hmm:


CAN´T WAIT!!! :rock:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

:/\chop

[Hartmann]

I see the content of this pirate mod :ahoy: :arrgh!:

Rub and IUB as a big compilations of free mods are better, very superior , than this payware compilation of stolen mods. :down:

with rub , iub and some other mods over, nobody needs this payware mod.

:o :huh: :hulk: :damn: :/\: :/\!! :/\chop :dead:

[spulman]

OK!! Thanks everyone for the info..I'll steer well clear of Sea Wolves..

[Dowly]

OK!! Thanks everyone for the info..I'll steer well clear of Sea Wolves..

Before you do that, launch a couple of acoustic torpedos. :up:

[Wulfmann]

And yet, when a call went out for exactly what unauthorized mods were on Seawolves all went silent.
But, I would never consider the First Seawolves either as I like modding. I think RUB is way off and modded the hect out of it.
However, for those that do not mod many have said they liked Seawolves.
But, Spulman, if you choose to add mods there are many people that will help you here to work through any problems and better than any commercial project. You get better help on SH3 from people here than from UBI as well.

But, the next Seawolves is a totaly different add on. Many new ships and campaigns including the Black Sea 30 Flotilla, 23rd Flotilla out of Salamis, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau operation Berlin, Norway Juno, many destroyers and cruisers as well as merchant ships and even AI subs; British Italian and U-Boats (No wolfpacks though, darn!)

Wulfmann

Below, HMS Arethusa class CL, Twins in operation Berlin and a British T class sub. The port is Salamis, Greece and the U-baot is the foreground is AI, mine is in front of the pen. I have been beta testing and advisong Seawolves but do not work for them.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/Arethusa-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/Twins-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/HMSsub1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/What-port-is-this.jpg

[sergbuto]

And how did they make the AI subs move? I guess they figured out that themselves and did the proper hex-editing if they are going to sell the add-on. You can ask them what files they hex-edited and in what way to make sure that they did the whole thing themselves.

[kiwi_2005]

These guys who ripped of the modders are now being ripped of themselves. <Mod edit: That was a serious no-no! JCC> :arrgh!:

[The Avon Lady]

These guys who ripped of the modders are now being ripped of themselves. <Edit>
You know, it's just not even tempting :nope: , what with RUb, IUb, SH3 Commander and tons of other great mods available for free. :up:

[STEED]

Sea Wolves :nope:

The best thing to do is give it the :/\chop

[Wulfmann]

You know, it's just not even tempting :nope: , what with RUb, IUb, SH3 Commander and tons of other great mods available for free. :up:[/quote]

I agree personally, but many people would prefer to spend a few bucks, click install and play.

I found a way to have two separate SH3s on my better 64Bit PC. I was running the beta Seawolves Mediterranean on my smaller one but it added so much action and ships it ran slower. So, I put it on my 64 bit but no way was I going to upset my personally crafted version.
I have however, "borrowed" the ships I prefer and put them into my version.
I am giving free advise to them and feel that is OK.

Oh, and you were right about TC and radar AC. I ran some test after you said that (and I wrongly disputed it) Non radar planes will stop 1024 but radar planes can be avoided at 1024. But, I also tested 512 and 256 and there was no difference in my game. Now I spend my time diving from AC in 1943 sometimes 6-8 times in a day!!! Without the radar detection improvement mod there would be no chance so that is a big help!

Wulfmann

[HW3]

And how did they make the AI subs move? I guess they figured out that themselves and did the proper hex-editing if they are going to sell the add-on. You can ask them what files they hex-edited and in what way to make sure that they did the whole thing themselves.


Hum...sounds like they might have used sergbuto's AI U-Boat mod without permission. :hmm:

[sergbuto]

One can also check whether Type VII and Type II subs have water reflections from conning towers or any of new DDs have multiple skins.

[Wulfmann]

And how did they make the AI subs move? I guess they figured out that themselves and did the proper hex-editing if they are going to sell the add-on. You can ask them what files they hex-edited and in what way to make sure that they did the whole thing themselves.

I asked directly about this and quoted this and the other Serg post by email directly to X-1.

Here is what (my interpretation) the reply says.

UBI owns the rights to these files. X-1 does not, I do not, Serg does not Berry does not etc!
Ubi has not enforced its copyright allowing people to modify the files and share them.
But, they still own the rights! You do not!!!

Ubi has authorized one group to modify their copyrighted files for an authorized add-on to SH3. X-1; and no one else. Are you still with me?

That said, X-1 is not using Serg’s files but is using the same hex editing techniques to make many new ships.
Are you now saying when someone makes a mod the method they used to modify a UBI owned file is now owned by the modder??? That UBI does not have the right to authorize and add on???

WE all can mod and add mods and share them freely. What would happen if UBI got pissed at all this “I modded it and its mine and the way I did it is only mine too” attitude and took legal action to shut down any site that offers mods to SH3?

X-1 states they have done their own editing. I have personally requested they alter things that were, IMO inaccurate. He would sometimes resend them in hours. So when did Serg jump in and do that and it got ripped in the process??
Please.
Serg has been a great benefit to our community and added some neat things that I have in my version and I am grateful to all the modders for their personal contributions to making SH3 much better than it was from UBI.
Most of us here desire a personalized version to our taste and people like Serg have made that possible.
However, all these files still belong to UBI, like it or not (Has anyone copyrighted their mod, bet UBI will have something to say if you do!)
They have given X-1 permission to modify them for a payware expansion package. They have not given anyone but X-1 permission to do so.
Our little group is a small minority of those that have purchased SH3. Many would like a new expansion, a career in the Black Sea or Salamis in Greece or increased Mediterranean activity with Italian and British cruiser task forces slugging it out.
The fact this is not what you and I prefer does not mean SH3 as a whole does not benefit from more people wanting to buy SH3 because of this extra new add on or the many that do not want to mod shouldn’t expand their enjoyment.
You do not have to buy it but insisting others should not because a legally authorized expansion contains mods altered in the same fashion as those done by unauthorized people.
Serg only asked to be informed. He did not claim they used his mods and inferring that is, IMO, wrong.
I think anyone that has had anything stolen should state it right now. Don’t be a pansy, say so!!
If it is true you have nothing to fear, right?
If you make false and liable accusations, well you on your high horse should be ready to answer for them.
I am historic advisor and beta tester and am not part of X-1, ergo I get no financial benefit, nada.
If you have a real accusation, I would like to hear it.
If you only want to insinuate and vaguely accuse without facts I will call you out and demand you back up your claims just like I took this right to X-1 and asked if they were doing the editing themselves. They say they are, Give me facts to proof otherwise!

Wulfmann

[NeonSamurai]

Well Legaly there is a fine line in modding and ownership, Now as i understand it, modding existing game files does not = ownership of said files or changes. But adding totaly new stuff does (like making a brand new ship with its own new skin, model etc). The creator at the very least does own the skin and model (though perhaps not the rest).


How ever at the very least it is rather impolite to grab mods other people spent alot of time working on free of charge with out even contacting them, and then turing around and trying to sell them. X1 did indeed at one point do this, and the backlash from the community is as you see still felt. So people are still very suspicious of X1.

[Wulfmann]

NS, I agree there will always be a bad feeling towards X-1 here and X-1 deserves it for their initial actions. But, they released only approved mods with their new ones and Seawolves Mediterranean is all new stuff. And, now people are saying they don't have the right to make their own stuff by using the same methods of modding and that is rediculous.

There are no new ships in SH3. All are modified versions of UBI owned files. Any completely new file can be considered original but any modified file based on an original still belongs to UBI.

Greg Law (Seacondor) has sent Serg some CFS3 ships which are being converted for use in SH3. Greg has stated X-1 can add these if they want so here we have a delema. They belong to Greg Law of Ground Crew Designs and he is giving Serg the right to convert them to SH3 but X-1 can use them and does that mean Serg can say Greg's ships cannot be used because he modded them? You tell me. It is the fine line.
They will be offered for free but X-1 can use the same ships in their mod. (They won't be converted in time so it is really not an issue but still interesting)

I don't care if people do not want to buy Seawolves. I wouldn't myself as I like modding, that is the fun to me. It just annoys me when they act like the only people legally allowed to make mods are doing something wrong even when there is no evidence to suggest it!
Guilty without proof nor is any required to make baseless statements.
If what X-1 did was wrong then, why do those that accuse them falsely act like that is OK. Sounds like the same horse in a different color..

Wulfmann

[sergbuto]

...he is giving Serg the right to convert them to SH3
Is it being formulated like this now? I thought I was helping Greg to bring his models to SH3 community or basically doing him a favor.

...does that mean Serg can say Greg's ships cannot be used because he modded them? You tell me. It is the fine line.
They will be offered for free but X-1 can use the same ships in their mod. (They won't be converted in time so it is really not an issue but still interesting)
There should not be any issue here. If X-1 says they have all the necessary skills and figured out all the hex-editing tricks, they should be able to easily make the conversion of Greg's models and make it in time for their release as it seems they have the man power and do the job within hours as you said above.

[Wulfmann]

Serg, the miscommunication is my fault.
Because X-1 was modding new ships in the manner you were doing (but doing many of them) I thought you were doing them for X-1.
Greg was merely letting you add (convert) his stuff to SH3 simply to let the types of ships expand without any motive even though he is so busy he can not play SH3.
Because I thought you were making X-1 ships I suggested to X-1 they should buy them from Greg and Greg told me X-1 could use them for free.
I now realize you are not involved with making new models for X-1 and they have pretty much wrapped up their ships and are testing other areas.
My fault, sorry for any mix up but purely my doing.
Wulfmann

[ENtek-IO]

Really to be honest people who steal unique work are scum ,period.

And it doesnt matter the slightest bit what they think about their act in that regard.

Further,the modding community dont need the permission from anybody to to mod the files they got on their hd,especially not if they dont intend to sell their modification of the source files..
IF a software company would intend to prevent modding they should seal their code so that it is factual unaccessable.

Otherwise its mine,on my HD i can do whatever i want with it as long it is on my machine and i just share the mod info with buddys.

You know we dont need to pack modfiles like configs etc, a textfile how to do it would be fully sufficent.
Try to stop me from telling someone how to do it.

Further you know Ubisoft Is an enemy of the modding community,because in their limited horizon they see only assumed potential losses.

Quite ironic in a situation where Modders spent their valuable time to remove partially bugs, which never should have been in the final product in the first place?
Imagine Mercedes would sell you after 1 year the brake fix kit...,i know in regard to software there is no life at stake,yet the example already shows the Unprofessional attitude that found a prosperous ground in the IT industrie.
And then people like you Wolve come arround and defend some dubious figures,who basically should prove to us, that they didnt steal the knowhow to some modds.
But as this is isnt provable i would ignore those config changes,they are lost, as a modder you should be aware that you do it for nada..,dont expect anything.
Internal ,we of course know that they are thieves, and that that alone excludes them from civilized mankind.
And I bet they are aware of that fact and just have postponed selfexaminations in the mirror till that day they face death ,eventually, but only maybe.
Usualy character flaws like that are a steady company through the whole life.

Anyways if it comes to custom artwork i would sue them for every single skin/mesh they stole,if they would try to make money of it.
I slowley think the open source community might take longer to make their sim versions of platforms but in the end we dont need to reley on products made by people who only got $ signs in their socialy retarded minds.
I would like to point out though, that not all companys act like that, there are exeptions like Relic© for example.
Yet its a fact that a few foul apples can spoil the whole recept.

All who might feel hit by what i said i can offer hope,there are already people working on stuff like MS`s palladium approach, and intentions by american telecom companys to transfor the web kill off the civil internet splitting it up in brass silver and premium networks,and let the user pay for each and everything he is doing with his super Duper paladium machine on which not even the code for the progs will be stored , because the programs will be lend and downloaded on demand via super HD pipes.
Nice eh..? ITs the uber control freaks vs the sane world,you all will be happy.

The philosophical implications one can derive from the already visible approaches, which indicate the corrosponding mindsets if you analyze what they mean,point from my pov towards a state where we the users, should carefully watch IT developments and in Doubt act massivley against such intentions.

And sabotageing X1 is the least we can do.

Just keep in mind that they are only the visible peeks of even bigger attempts to ripp us off,and in the end change the liberal free face of the internet.

[Wulfmann]

What you and a few (I am sure well meaning) short sighted people refuse to consider is Seawolves will reach 10 to 100 times as many people as our little community effort, no matter how much we enjoy it.
What they do actually helps us more than we help ourselves.
By expanding the user base they can help the barely minimum sales fiqures to make UBI want to continue doing sub sims.
It is in our interest that they succeed but don't let me open that little narrow way of thinking we are the center of the universe and the man is out to live off our wonderous efforts.
We are doing some nice editing of a few files. We are not the reason for SH3's success. We do what we enjoy and that is enough for me.
Perhaps you have forgotten how M$ does exactly what you refer to when they sell for hundreds of dollars unfinished programs, nearly every product they make is like that.

Wulfmann

[Col7777]

I'm all for an add on to SH3, I'm sure many of you remember SH2 and there were a bunch of guys who set about an add on for that.
It was called "Pacific Aces," I was involved on that team though I played a minor part, but the end result was we got an add on to SH2, but the bottom line was it was done for FREE.
Why can't X-1 do the same?

[Gizzmoe]

Why can't X-1 do the same?

They are a company and want/need to make money.

[Wulfmann]

Why can't X-1 do the same?

Why doesn't UBI do it for free???

Companies have employees and like to feed their children and I am guessing you do not refuse your paycheck from your job.

X-1 is making an add on and the only people that will buy it are the ones that want to. How is that different than any other game company

Wulfmann

[Col7777]

I didn't realise it was a company, I thought it was a bunch of scallys trying to make a fast buck. sorry I misunderstood.

[ME$$ENGER]

What you and a few (I am sure well meaning) short sighted people refuse to consider is Seawolves will reach 10 to 100 times as many people as our little community effort, no matter how much we enjoy it.
What they do actually helps us more than we help ourselves.
By expanding the user base they can help the barely minimum sales fiqures to make UBI want to continue doing sub sims.

Who cares if they can reach a larger user base. What if the authors of the mods simply don't want to reach a larger user base, at least not when someone is getting profits off their work? If your explanation is logical then I guess every person selling pirated games out there is helping the industry, too. Those guys in China certainly have a huge user base.


It is in our interest that they succeed but don't let me open that little narrow way of thinking we are the center of the universe and the man is out to live off our wonderous efforts.
We are doing some nice editing of a few files. We are not the reason for SH3's success. We do what we enjoy and that is enough for me.
Perhaps you have forgotten how M$ does exactly what you refer to when they sell for hundreds of dollars unfinished programs, nearly every product they make is like that.

Wulfmann

No one cares if the authors of those unfinished programs let M$ use their work. However, when M$ doesn't have the permission, even the best lawyers in the world won't save their asses. Remember MS-DOS 6.0 and the little disk compression scam?

[Wulfmann]

Messenger, I am not sure if you understand one basic truth here, UBI is the author or owner of the authored work and holds the rights to them. They have given X-1 permission to modify the files of SH3 for an expansion package. X-1 is not using other people's mods. They are making their own in the same manner others do.
I have a few dozen of their ships never seen anywhere else that I know they made themselves..
They have legal permission for this and no one else does.
Name one thing they have in this Mediterranean package that belongs to someone else.
Please.
I say you do not know what you are talking about and are making false and misleading claims that are baseless.
Proof me wrong!

Wulfmann

[ME$$ENGER]

Messenger, I am not sure if you understand one basic truth here, UBI is the author or owner of the authored work and holds the rights to them. They have given X-1 permission to modify the files of SH3 for an expansion package.

Ubisoft has given them the permission to MOD the game like what Beery and Jones did. Saying Ubisoft authorized X1 Soft to make a 3rd party commercial expansion carries about as much weight as nothing since it is completely irrelevant to this issue. That simply means Ubisoft tolerates commercial mods. Using someone's work without permission for profit though, is stealing not modding. Even if you did the majority of the work, as long as someone's material has been used, you need to obtain permission and provide credits. As for my proof, see this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=40628

If that's not enough, try google.

I do have to admit though, the version analyzed in the thread is obviously not the latest one in the market. Thus we might never know what exactly is still there(or not there).

[Gizzmoe]

I do have to admit though, the version analyzed in the thread is obviously not the latest one in the market. Thus we might never know what exactly is still there(or not there).

Seawolves came out about 5 months ago, people analysed it and so far they couldn´t come up with anything that showed that X1 has broken any laws.

[Salvadoreno]

arguing aside. How is this small exp?? Is it pretty much everything the modders have done??

[Gizzmoe]

arguing aside. How is this small exp??

It´s total crap compared to what you can get for free. Seawolves is ok for certain groups of people, but it´s over-priced.

[Wulfmann]

Messenger, you seem to ignore any relevant fact that does not support you rant.
UBI has authorized, not tolerated, not ignored, they have authorized X-1 to make the expansion and X-1 sends their stuff to UBI for approval.
No one but X-1 has this authorization and your claim of stealing somebody’s work was not followed by a single example.
As G said, nothing was done unlawfully.
I do agree G, I liked the free mods better than what was in X-1's first package.
This second package is huge by comparison and has many, many new things of which no one should buy that does not like X-1 to which they will not care!
This one will be a good thing for non downloaders and for those that want more ships, Black Sea and Salamis campaigns but has so much activity in the Med it is rush hour. While that makes for better gaming, it does not simulate actual events. Although, many things are based on real events and things like Juno and Berlin are great. Small convoys in the Med are added much more like the many Tobruk ones that were real and I have seen more German air attacks on allied ships in a few career missions than I have seen in 8 months of SH3 play (which would be none).
Once I dove quickly thinking the DD had spotted me because it was blasting away. But, there were no splashes and I noticed the flashes were going upward. By the time I got there one DD was sunk, the other was making a fast track away and there was only a damaged cargo left for me to finish off. Damn greedy Luftwaffe getting all the credit!
I have a Seawolves beta version and my personal heavily modded version that I also add those things from Seawolves I like.
There is a whole lot I like but I want it my way.
Once a modder always a modder.

Wulfmann

[Salvadoreno]

uh.. seawolves sounds pretty sweeet... Besides the heavy traffic in med, what else is bs?

[Marhkimov]

I want some of their ships...

Too bad I'm a cheapskate who doesn't like payware expansion packs. :-j

[kiwi_2005]

I'm all for an add on to SH3, I'm sure many of you remember SH2 and there were a bunch of guys who set about an add on for that. It was called "Pacific Aces."

:yep: Remeber that addon well, very good. Also the Aces Campaign that was good also. I had bad ocean display in SH2 well not bad but wasn't good to look at - bluey darkish color, Yet my computer at the time was well above the specs required. Then someone put out a mod for ocean display and i tweaked the settings abit and got the water display to have that glass effect, crystal clear.

Man it would of been good to see a US addon for SH3. Hurry up SH4.

[rogerbo]

Wulfmann, what's so strange for me is to understand that IF UBI gave the authorisation to that Add on then why is it a banned theme on the Official UBI Forum ?? (specialy in the German Forum)
So either they don't want that ppl. know it exist and/or is authorized by UBI or it's just not realy authorized by them.

You say that you did a lot of testing for x-1 but did you REALY see this authorisation or did they just tell you they have it ?

[Wulfmann]

We discuss it freely on the UBI site in the US but I have no idea what happens in Germany.
.
My only association with X-1 is the same offer I made to UBI (which they ignored) that I would comment on the project from the position of historic relevance.
X-1 took me up on this second project.
I had nothing at all to do with advising on the first X-1 release, do not have it and even turned down a request for a copy of it.
I like my modded version.
For me to follow what they are doing they send me the beta Seawolves Mediterranean as it progresses and I comment. I might add while they have taken a lot of my advise they are not making this to my taste but more for gaming. Their conversions have resulted in some very nice models and some I have advised they delete, advise they have ignored!
They did buy a Conway’s so I could give them a basic reference I could point to making it easier for me to relate.
It is a cross between many actual events and ships but exaggerated for increased game play.
I commented to X-1 that this extra activity will not be well received by the purist to which they replied this was not being made for the purist.
I must admit if I were making a commercial project I too would scale it to be more profitable and reach a wider audience.
The modding community is not their audience.
As far as being connected with UBI, well, X-1 has blatantly stated they have authorization and would certainly have put themselves in serious legal jeopardy if that was not true.
Often I have been told they are sending this or that to UBI for approval on different things which either shows UBI keeps some control or X-1 is conducting a huge libelous rouge.
The cross burning mod will believe what they want and X-1 simply does not care what they think and I don’t blame them at all.
Wulfmann

[VonHelsching]

I would be willing to pay for an expansion pack of SH3, only if the expansion pack developer had the SDK and could do things such as:

- Add new playable subs
- Change AI of DDs
- Convert other hardcoded features to options

I bet that 1-2 months after the release of the X1 Med Expansion Pack, that we will see a series of new mods called R(M)uB (Real Mediterranean U-boat), IMuB, Holyhood Med, NYGM MedCapaign, Salamis HT 1.85, Uboat Med Ace and Marhk's Med Madness :rock:

Unless "Med" is to be copyrighted by X1 :rotfl:

[Wulfmann]

Well VH, don't hold your breath UBI is letting bthem expand and edit and not giving up the core stuff.

As far as R(M)UB, IMuB etc I do hope you are right because we will want to make it suit our "purist" taste to which it is not being made.

Wulfmann

[Col7777]

After reading more of this topic and OK I was ignorant at first not knowing X-1 was a company.
This made me think of my other interest Flight sim, for those of you who also do FS, isn't there lots of models of aircraft almost everyday being released, so if say I made a model of such and such aircraft then someone also made the same model and used SIMILAR methods to make it, did he steal my model or did he do as the others did and use the same model making tools?
The same goes for add-on scenery, there is lots of it in FS some free some payware, do the scenery designers use SIMILAR methods as each other?
I got to thinking about all the mods and ideas people did and had in SH2, so didn't we get some of them in SH3, we had a wish list for SH3 so may be some more of that wish list is in this add-on pack.
But going back to the flight sim idea, there is lots of payware for that, some of it isn't as good as the freeware and people do post on forums saying so, some of the payware has bugs, there is good and bad, so are we being too harsh before we see this package?

[Wulfmann]

C7777, Because X-1 in their first add on thought (very foolishly) that it would be a good idea to also take the freeware mods and add them to their payware package as an option. This community found out and reacted with strong objection, as should be expected. But after righting the wrong or misstep they have been on a witch hunt.
X-1 released their mediocre package with only their and approved mods but many still assumed even those were stolen and ranted and foamed way beyond reason.
Still, one can understand their resentment to X-1 and this community will never have much but contempt for X-1 no matter what they do in the future.
I do see their point.
But, I also see that X-1 had downloaded the mods and was considering them as adding to their stuff when people here obtained the link and illegally downloaded X-1's stuff to prove their point. It was not proof X-1 was using it but had it and having it is not wrong but using it would be. But, they hadn't!! (Whether they would have, who knows? Some here know for sure, that you can bet on!). So they published with no unapproved mods but the resentment remains and always will.
But, notice it was OK for the do gooders to illegally DL X-1s property. The mod community is above the law!
I also understand that many do not have the time or desire to mod, edit DL etc their SH3 and Seawolves reaches many such people that want their product. It also increases the base of sub sims and supports the future of sub sims. Some are so hell bent on boycotting X-1 they would rather no new SH4 be built than allow X-1 to succeed and expand our base. I still see why they feel this way but would rather out base be expanded to insure a future game. It was reported there would be no SH4 but finally sales reached a point where they decided to do SH4, Halleluiah. Barley just barely. Did Seawolves help this? Probably not. But it did not hurt it because it went Gold and I can assure you the Mediterranean will be a big hit despite the whiners here.
Flight sim mods have had their share of similar things of that I also know.

Wulfmann

If Russel Crow was flying this victorious plane; what kind of plane would it be?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/Glad-pit-cr42-1.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

I know, but after I wrote it I finally got the joke, so I'm editing this.

[Catfish]

Hello,
all quite simple:
1. X-1 software, or better this Steffen Trombke, has used free mods made by others and tried to sell it as an expansion, pretending it would have been his work, or the work of X-1. It does not matter to me whether he got the allowance of Ubi to do so. I will not go into details what i think about Ubi in that respect.
2. X-1 software, in this case Steffen Trombke himself, has posted insults and threats against the modding community, he has used other AKAs to propagate the "seawolves" mod here, trying to advertise with false names how "beautiful" this mod is.
3. The same Trombke went so far as to post porn material here, which was certainly more embarrassing for himself and his "X-1" than it did damage to subsim.com. This and other threads started by him were thus shut down and blocked by subsim moderators.

I just think that i will not support anyone who behaves in such a way. If you still want to buy anything from Trombke and his sorry company, i cannot stop you, go ahead.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Wulfmann]

At least as far as I know this Trombke fellow has nothing to do with Seawolves Mediterranean.
But, I should be clear, That is I have not spoken with or communicated with any such person and if he exist in this project he has chosen to stay well clear of me to the point of seeming to not exist at all.
So, I can not confirm or deny anything you say about him but do remember his long ago emails with displeasure.

Wulfmann

[Catfish]

Hello,
Wolfer= Steffen Trombke='Ossi' = Boss of X1. Astonished?
And he still trys to advertise in current forums with false names, just type "X-1" and "Trombke" within Google and you will see that all kinds of other boards and websites are well aware of what this guy does.
After i saw how he behaves i certainly have to share your opinion that Trombke cannot be made liable for making any mod for sure, be it the first "Seawolves" or the 2nd mediterranean one. But i have to say i also question his marketing abilities.
Greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Hello,
this is one of his "harmless" posts
(Just found that again: Deathping is Trombke b.t.w.)
from the SH3 forum over at UBI (still ask myself what Ubisoft has to do with this, err, nice fellow.)

"deathping--- Posted Mon July 25 2005 19:42
Subsim and the 5 or so losers that inhabit that forum, and when they get bored, float over to this forum should be ashamed of themselves for besmirching a reputable company like X1 software and its developer Steffen Trombke.

I've purchased products overseas for il2 from Mr. Trombke and have had only the best service, the man is so fair, he even returned a few cents in change to me.

For some reason, you losers at subsim seem to think that because you modded some smoke and made it blacker or painted a skin, or stole some images from Das Boot, that you have some sort of ownership over those altered UBI and DAS BOOT files. Well you don't.

Furthermore, I don't even believe that you have seen a copy, this so called stolen copy that some of you rant of. I think you are out and out liars.

And Avon lady, what is with the israeli flag? I thought your people didn't like Germans, you know, because of that holocaust thing and all. Why are you here flaunting that flag? To stir the pot?

Perhaps there is a ruben-sandwich-making simulator out there for you?
"
end quote

Greetings
Catfish

[Wulfmann]

I remember that post and agree with your assesment at it being tasteless at best.
But, If I selectively reprinted the many rediculous mob mentality hateful unwarranted post on this subject by naming respected members here they would reflect just as poorly.
There was little anyone involved would not do to sink to the lowest level allowed on this site.
No one should be proud of their participation including me!

Wulfmann

[Catfish]

Hello, final statement ... b.t.w. Wulfmann you said you sure never had any contact with Trombke, but see here:

Additionally, on the 25th, deathping comments on the legal scenario:
Trombke as deathping wrote:

"Exactly right... You modders own nothing! What? you make a new explosion and you think you did something? Or
clouds. YOU OWN NOTHING! I repeat... YOU OWN NOTHING and stop acting like you do own it. Oh and all you Das
Boot Modders, who gave you permission to distribute their media likenesses free or not??"
On the 26th he continues, but not to plead his case, but merely initiate personal attacks against members of Ubisoft's
SH3 community.
Trombke as deathping wrote:
"What personal attack?
I find it curious that someone comes into a German simulator for Uboots waving an israeli flag!
As for the Christian being a reservist in the israeli military. Well Wulfmann, that's really kind've true isn't it? Very
interesting that you would actually admit that.
Further, Christians are not any more above reproach than nonchristians or jews but that's a minor point in this matter.
Why don't you inhale some helium balloons or something and go hang out at subsim whilst making a blacker smoke or
something.
But before you all go, why don't you all apologize to Steffen Trombke for YOUR insults.
Talentless losers of subsim, shame on you...."

end of quote.

Seems you already did have contact to the boss of X-1 soft ... it is all well archived in the 'net.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Hello,
sorry, i posted this before i read your answer. Surely no reason to further discuss that, but this guy is the boss of X-1. There are other links to Combatplanes and so on ... let us just stop here.
Greetings,
Catfish

[Col7777]

Hmm... I see what you mean Catfish, now you posted that I do remember it now, I must admit I had forgotten.
You are right of course that isn't the right way to encourage business, now I've changed my mind again, shame really I would have liked a nice add-on, I think I'll stick with the mods. :up:

[Marhkimov]

If X1 was really a legit company, then this Trombke fellow should take it into his own hands to address the unhappy community members. Apparently, he is not diplomatic enough, because everytime he appears on these boards, he gets flamed to oblivion.

Where are his leadership skills? Apparently, Trombke lacks where it matters most: diplomacy and social aptitude... TROMBKE = A LEADER WHO CANNOT LEAD.

So is it really surprising that X1 Seawolves is down the toilet?


No, not surprising at all... :down:

[Wulfmann]

:rotfl:
Catfish, I did not associate with that person and in fact I rebuked him in the strongest terms and he was attacking me in that post because I lashed out at him for condescendingly belittling a well respected member of our community (where were you?)

How in the world do you get me associating with that person in anything but an adversarial state?

I asked the person I deal with at X-1 who that person was and they said they did not know and called him a trouble maker.

You say it was Trombke, I simply do not know but he certainly had no doubt about my attitude toward him for his unwarranted comments and if you read your own post you can see he reacted to me with contempt.

What point are you making again
:hmm: :rotfl:
It seems like your post is opposite your point!!

Wulfmann

[VonHelsching]

IMHO, this discussion hurts SH3 and the modding community.

[sergbuto]

I do have to admit though, the version analyzed in the thread is obviously not the latest one in the market. Thus we might never know what exactly is still there(or not there).

Seawolves came out about 5 months ago, people analysed it and so far they couldn´t come up with anything that showed that X1 has broken any laws.

Today I have happened to come across the list of files in Seawolves and I see files from my mods Additional Merchants (includes NKGN and NPTR ships) and Multi-skin ships (includes multi-skinned DDs and trawler). If it is true I did not give permission to use them for Seawolves and commercial purposes.

[Wulfmann]

They are not the same ships.
I know this because I have those Seawolves ships and I have yours.
I have emailed them asking they change the name of their ships so both can be used but with so many things happening I forgot to follow up.
Like I said, they are different models. The KGN is either the small tanker or small merchant converted to be a new cargo and they have added about 5 troopship versions. I will try and remember to switch to 92% so I can post screens of those ships
Like you did, they added a convenient letter to differentiate the new ship and because they do not have yours were unaware it had been used.
Hopefully they will change it so I can add your versions to my modded Seawolves. This would allow any unit type 102 (ex) to spawn.
Every time I get a new RND.mis file I spend about 8 hours converting all the escorts to 3 and 4 and remove class names so they vary each time they spawn as well as double the number of escorts in all the convoys.
Hmmmm? :hmm: This could explain why 50% of my first career missions end in death! :rotfl: Actually that is 1943 NA not the Med which I am on mission 9 out of Salamis 1941 but did come back at 25% hull integraty

Wulfmann

[sergbuto]

I mean Seawolves released 5 months ago. They have only two new merchants added and those have exact names as NKGN and NPTR from Additional Merchants. It seems to be too much for coincidence. I very much doubt they did not know about these merchants and their names because I was specifically asked about these merchants by X1 software people. Furthermore, the number and type of multi-skinned DDs are exactly the same as in my first version of the Multi-Skin ships mod. Even the number of skins for these DDs are the same as in the first version of the Multi-Skin ships mod. Anyhow, if I have an opportunity to examine the content of the files I can tell for sure what they are.

[Wulfmann]

I do not have that X-1 Seawolves. I am referring to the upcoming Mediterranean. Not sure why they would have those same names but be different ships but they are in this one.
Wulfmann

[sergbuto]

Funny. In that X-1 Seawolves release they did not even bother to change the dates of file creation for files from my mods. I do not even need to check the content of the files. And I also know that they could not make multi-skinned ships at least until Dec 23, 2005 because that is when they contacted me asking for conversion of their two ships to multi-skinned.

[oRGy]

Typical!

Unfortunately it does sort of prove that mod-making tends to be a mugs game; a modder has very few rights unless they create a lot of 100% new material (eg new skins, sounds,etc) and are willing to pay a lawyer to go after people.

And obviously in this case Ubisoft is quite willing to tolerate X-1, presumably because they want the "MS Flight Sim" effect, where add on packs, even if low quality, increase the stature and hence sales of the original game.

Solution: Make your own game, or go open-source. In this day and age, I reccommend the latter.

[STEED]

And obviously in this case Ubisoft is quite willing to tolerate X-1, presumably because they want the "MS Flight Sim" effect, where add on packs, even if low quality, increase the stature and hence sales of the original game.

Money they want it don't give :yep:

[Vonotto]

If there had been any thought on my part to purchase Seawolves (I SAID IF PEOPLE :lol: ) my mind would have been made up after the horrible posts sent by members of X1. I would NEVER purchase anything from a company that talks to or towards consumers or prospective consumers the way they have.

[AO1_AW_SW_USN]

All of this post is my opinion.

With UBI Soft not wanting to patch nor expand on SH3, the copyright protection issues with Starfore and the poor attention paid to a devoted community leaves me baffled. Why do we keep supporting them? Is it because UBI is the only company that has produced a somewhat decent submarine simulation?

I say that we all lobby to another gaming software publisher to look into the sub simulation genera. After all, Activision is the second largest gaming software company in the world. They have proven that they can find a great development team and produce some stellar titles like the “Call of Duty” and “Total War” series. Why wouldn’t they tap into the world of Naval simulation games? If most of us who play these types of games band together worldwide as one voice, how can company like Activision ignore us and loose out on a potential profit?

[Wulfmann]

Simple answer; Money

If SH3 reaches the 100K sales mark it will be considered a success for such nitch games and seems to justify SH4 being made but that also seemed to be barely.

Most companies will not consider games that only promise to maybe hit 100K as that is not a big deal for games, not even close.

If CoD was only projected to sell 100K there would not have been a CoD2.
What is nice about SH3 is the mod community keeps the sales trickling in and even the dreaded pay add ons help a bit with the non modder.

But, they know we are lucky they bother at all so don't pay us much attention when we whine.

Don't mean to be cruel, to a community that's true :rotfl: But that's the facts Jack!

Wulfmann

[AO1_AW_SW_USN]

Simple answer; Money

If SH3 reaches the 100K sales mark it will be considered a success for such nitch games and seems to justify SH4 being made but that also seemed to be barely.

Most companies will not consider games that only promise to maybe hit 100K as that is not a big deal for games, not even close.

If CoD was only projected to sell 100K there would not have been a CoD2.
What is nice about SH3 is the mod community keeps the sales trickling in and even the dreaded pay add ons help a bit with the non modder.

But, they know we are lucky they bother at all so don't pay us much attention when we whine.

Don't mean to be cruel, to a community that's true :rotfl: But that's the facts Jack!

Wulfmann


If SH3 garnered the "100K" sales minimum to warrant a follow-up SH4, wouldn't that indicate that there's a market in the Naval Simulation genera? You bet it would, and why would rival companies like EA and Activison ignore a potential profit if UBI has proven that a market exists?

Producing products for human consumption or for human use brings the risk of failure. That's basic economics in the world market. So when a gaming publisher releases a product it's either high quality, mediocre or a flat out failure. To me there's no real gray area. When EA released the Medal of Honor, it was a success because it was high-quality at the time. Then Activision came along, scooped up a lot of the MoH developers that was Infinaty Ward and boxed up a product called Call of Duty. It destroyed MoH on the virtual battlefield and turned it from high quality to mediocre. What would stop a company like Activision from doing the same with a naval simulation like SH3 (that's borderline high-quality to begin with)?

That's why I say, stop putting up with all the baggage that follows UBI and petition to another gaming developer to at least look into this possibility. If they pull another feat like CoD again with Silent Hunter III, then we all win and UBI will learn a valuable lesson.

[Torplexed]

That's why I say, stop putting up with all the baggage that follows UBI and petition to another gaming developer to at least look into this possibility. If they pull another feat like CoD again with Silent Hunter III, then we all win and UBI will learn a valuable lesson.


Ahhh. If only the now defunct Dynamix/Sierra Online were still about. Going by the nostalgia around here for a certain decade old subsim they'd probably still be getting a flood of e-mails every week to create an Aces of the Deep II. :hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

While all of you are bickering back and forth, I still cannot find a Ruben sandwich maker simulator anywhere on the net. :hulk:

Die, Seawolves, die! :down:

[STEED]

Die, Seawolves, die! :down:

:/\chop :/\chop :/\chop :/\chop :/\chop :/\chop :/\chop :/\chop :/\chop :/\chop Well Said

[SubSerpent]

Well at this point I don't care what 'Seawolves' says. I still have a BIGGER penis than all them MOFOs combined and I'd rather play with and massage that baby anyday than to buy anything from them. :rock:

[trenken]

Does anyone know what the sales of SH3 were? I know Call of duty is big business. The FPS market is obviously far beyond the sim market. But if SH3 did actually hit 100k in sales, that would have generated Ubi about $5mil. I would guess and say the production of these games costs less than that, and therefore they would be profitting, which would make it worth it to them to continue making these games.

[Wulfmann]

[/quote]
When EA released the Medal of Honor, it was a success because it was high-quality at the time. Then Activision came along, scooped up a lot of the MoH developers that was Infinaty Ward and boxed up a product called Call of Duty. It destroyed MoH on the virtual battlefield and turned it from high quality to mediocre. .[/quote]

If MoH had sold 100K copies Activision would never have bothered making CoD. If SH3 had sold 500K they might give it a look. At 1,000K they would have already bought the Romanian company that made SH3 and is making SH4

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

While all of you are bickering back and forth, I still cannot find a Ruben sandwich maker simulator anywhere on the net. :hulk: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

It was already released in the US. It sold out during lunch hour
The add on is Ruben sandwich "on Rye" and it is doing so well they will be making a Pumpernickle expansion package.
I had a copy of the beta but mistook it for lunch. pretty good! :sunny:

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

Does anyone know what the sales of SH3 were? I know Call of duty is big business. The FPS market is obviously far beyond the sim market. But if SH3 did actually hit 100k in sales, that would have generated Ubi about $5mil. I would guess and say the production of these games costs less than that, and therefore they would be profitting, which would make it worth it to them to continue making these games.

Although way over the hill I know a lot of younger gamers through all of this stuff.
Most care little about WWII but when I run the start up of CoDUA many go right out and buy it and love it.
When I show them SH3 they look at the monitor like a calf looking at a new gate!
None have ever asked about it again.
It is a very narrow field of unique wackos that spend hours getting ready to shoot something and then break out in cold sweats over a hydophone machine cringing at every ping like someone is stabbing them with a knife.

Wulfmann

[jasondef]

Well, I'm not faulting Ubisoft for anything they've done. Most of these smaller game producers its all they can do to keep afloat, and many go under all the time. So from their standpoint, go ahead and let modders mod and official expansions go ahead and charge money, whatever Ubi can do to expand the playability the better.

And I came into this game in January, never knew about X-1's past, so I am not biased against them for anything new that they do now that is legit. I've read what their new Med expansion does, and to be honest it sounds pretty good to me, with several features that I have yet to see in any of the mods within this fabulous mod community. Like SIXTY new cities, naval and airbase additions, new ships, and the historical activity like D-Day, etc. Some of the other features do seem "borrowed" or copied, but some of these things are just common sense fixes that should've come with the game in the first place, like improved AI, new missions or at least more variety in missions besides "patrol grid X", ships/traffic in the harbors, more interesting graphics and scenery, and tutorials for firing spreads and attacking convoys among others. These things have already been done by the mod community, but as long as X-1 did them themselves that's OK. Just like within the mod community, there are different mods for the same thing each done by a different creator, like new skins, scenery additions, etc. One modder comes up with a good idea, and different modders take the idea and do it their own way.

As long as X-1 isn't stealing or copying the exact mods its no different than just another modder doing it his/her own way, and I have yet to see real proof that they're stealing exact mods. And how can anybody prove anything at least until it comes out and then we can examine its real contents, rather than speculating based on their past? I believe in giving people second chances.

I would personally rather not pay for mods of course, but as long as they're offering certain things that I can't find elsewhere in the freeware mod community, like the features I described above, I will consider it if its well done.

If we the mod community (I use "we" loosely, as I have yet to create a mod myself) don't like them charging money, lets wait until it comes out, then "borrow" their new features, and create our own new mods that copy those features and offer them up as our own mods! If they can do it to the mod community, than the mod community can do it to them, and that would solve my dilemna of wanting to support this great mod community and at the same time covet the pay-for cool features that this Med expansion brings to the table. I just want to get the most out of my game, is that so wrong?

The one real reservation that I have against X-1 is that this Trombke guy does seem like a real a-hole and I'd hate to support him. But I think I read somewhere back there that Wulfman says he's not there anymore. And I have yet to come across any company that doesn't have an a-hole boss somewhere within, and if I boycotted every company that had an a-hole boss somewhere I'd be reduced to a caveman using stone tools with no technology whatsoever.

So in summary, as long as any company brings something new to the table for any game, I must consider it as a game enthusiast. And if I see real proof of wrong doings by X-1 in this new Med expansion, which seems to me has to wait at least until it comes out for thorough examination, I'll drop them like a hot potato. Lets make our own mods that covers whatever is new from this expansion, and our problems will be solved! If they can do it to us, we can do it to them!

[jasondef]

3. The same Trombke went so far as to post porn material here,

Porn material? Where exactly is that? Just so I know where to avoid.

[mrfu]

Hey people!

I'm a big fan of Silent Hunter 3 and I've already installed all the possible mods I can install at the same time, before even seeing this fake ass, rip off remake...

Seawolves... :rotfl:

But anyway, I run a internet gameshop and I was looking for some screenshots for this game (to sell it) but after reading this I, see that these people are bastards for taking mods other people made and sell it to make money themselves.

So I deleted the game from my database.
I don't want to sell games ripped from people who put hard effort and a lot af time into something they offer for free to others.

GMX Media sucks. :down:

For everyone who makes mods, serious or not.
Thanks and keep up the good work.

Special thanks to Juju :P He does GREAT work.

[John Channing]

3. The same Trombke went so far as to post porn material here,

Porn material? Where exactly is that? Just so I know where to avoid.

Sorry.. to late to "avoid" it! It's gone for good.

JCC

[Razman23]

Why should I pay for a Med Add-on when Grandmas Tonnage Mod works and looks ten times better?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Razman23]

I was posting over at SimHQ and got one of the X1 lackys to spill where he got the mods. As you can see they had already rifled through the free mods to pick out what they wanted to pass off as their own.......again.

==========

ok, mate, obviously you have a bee in the bonnet. But I'll try and respond fairly.

Expanded radio log messages for 1941-1943

We are not using the free mod and have built our own.

Reduced effects of fatigue for the crew

We made our own

New interior graphics for all U-boats

Used by permission

Uniform enhancements

made our own

Hi resolution skins on the Type VII and Type IXD, including camoflage options

We were going to ask permission but didn't like the ones available so we made our own. We have four choices for Type VIIB and VIIC

Hi resolution harbors

Took them out because of frame rate concerns.

New skins on many warships

Many, many hours spent building our own. We have three times the skins of any mod out there.

Reworked and improved sounds

Every single sound has been edited, many new sounds.

New smoke and particle effects

Many hours building our own effects.

An improved damage model for U-boats

I confess I don't know what is out there, but we made our own anyway.

Reduced sonar accuracy, realistic limits for destroyers

Used by permission, then we added some details of our own.

Reduced night vision acuity for all enemies

Didn't like what was out there, we made our own.

Improved surface detection range out to 10km.

I believe the mods available were 8 or 16, we made our own at 10km.

Did I mention 45 new ships? But I guess this mod is out there too right?

==================

You can read the whole thread here.

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=129&t=001547

[Wulfmann]

Being that I am beta testing the Med add on, that does sound about right to me.
One thing I really like a lot is when you are hitting a ship with the deck gun you see constant effects from the hits. I have seen so many secondary explosions and fires the ship was engulfed and I thought it was sunk but actually was not.
There are many nice things in this and with SH4 at least a year and a half away many with ill feelings will miss even trying this while others will buy it and not say anything, IMO.

Wulfmann

[jasonb885]

What you and a few (I am sure well meaning) short sighted people refuse to consider is Seawolves will reach 10 to 100 times as many people as our little community effort, no matter how much we enjoy it.


Eh?

That argument makes little sense.

CP and his tool are making a quick buck with a lesser quality product, shrouded in lies, at the expense of the purchaser. I hardly see how that services my interest as a modder or the community's interest in any fashion. Ripping off people services no one but the scammer.

Look at it another way. The scammed person is now out 20 Euros, which could've been spent on something else, helping pay the wages of actual hard working people.

Are you saying somewhere, someone who lost his job should be totally cool with the fact that a scammer took away his job?

Anyway.

[jasondef]

I hardly see how that services my interest as a modder or the community's interest in any fashion.

I think Wulframm meant that it services the interest of Ubisoft to sell more copies of SH3 out there to the general public.

[Wulfmann]

I hardly see how that services my interest as a modder or the community's interest in any fashion.

I think Wulframm meant that it services the interest of Ubisoft to sell more copies of SH3 out there to the general public.

Wulframm??? Is that a little Brokeback Uboatin joke??? :rotfl:

I mean the more help we get in selling a few more copies that gave UBI the idea to go ahead with SH4 is a benefit to all of us.

The fact some still relive the same old tired arguments that when challenged showed no wrong doing and the fact the next package is full of all new stuff (I know this for a fact) still gets the die hard we would rather our community dies than see them succeed pathetic attitude.
The only thing I read that could be questioned was Serg asking if his ships were in this next install. To be sure I asked that the naming of new ships not use the names Serg had used for his (also because I wanted to use his ships in my SH3 as well as their ships) and they promptly renamed them.
But, seeing that I am beta testing the Med project and none of you are; you (J885) still seem to suggest you know more of what is in it than I do.
Your next statement should read something like:
“Who are you going to believe Wulfmann? Me or your lying eyes!!”
I believe what I see and know is true. You go on and continue to make false accusations and then be annoyed when this sells very very well of which I can assure you it will.
It will sell on its merits as a worthwhile add on. Mark my words.
Wulfmann

[jasonb885]

I hardly see how that services my interest as a modder or the community's interest in any fashion.

I think Wulframm meant that it services the interest of Ubisoft to sell more copies of SH3 out there to the general public.

Wulframm??? Is that a little Brokeback Uboatin joke??? :rotfl:

I mean the more help we get in selling a few more copies that gave UBI the idea to go ahead with SH4 is a benefit to all of us.


In a roundabout way, you can claim that, but it's a false assumption.

No one's going to buy SH3 because they've already bought some kind of SeaWolves mod. So, it doesn't actually serve anyone but the scammer.


...
But, seeing that I am beta testing the Med project and none of you are; you (J885) still seem to suggest you know more of what is in it than I do.


I only suggested -- as anyone can go back and read -- that your assertion that somehow UBI will produce a SH4 due to number of copies of SeaWolves sold is obviously false.


Your next statement should read something like:
“Who are you going to believe Wulfmann? Me or your lying eyes!!”
I believe what I see and know is true. You go on and continue to make false accusations and then be annoyed when this sells very very well of which I can assure you it will.
It will sell on its merits as a worthwhile add on. Mark my words.
Wulfmann

Eh?

I don't know or need to know anything about the scammer operation.

What's clear is your blind support of X1 makes you someone I disagree with. :nope:

<We don't resort to name calling here. JCC>

[kiwi_2005]

Wulfmann wrote:
When I show them SH3 they look at the monitor like a calf looking at a new gate!

:rotfl:

I have never heard that saying before but i like it.

..... want some humor come to subsim. :D

[Wulfmann]

J885? Blind????

I actually have the beta now. How are you so sure that what I see is not there? You are telling me that what I see and experience does not exist.
Interesting that in complete ignorance you live with such bliss.

You, once again, skillfully twist words and divert the subject. I do admire that, Goebels would be proud.

All I said was that anything that generates interest in SH3 helps the community.
The sold out sales figures of the first Seawolves suggest it is far from an unwanted product.
You insist that it is impossible for someone to see this and then want SH3 (likely they had not seen that yet?)
While I had nothing to do with that original in any way, I, like most here, had no reason to consider it as what was produced my the mod community better suited my taste.
But, the next one, in Beta called Seawolves Mediterranean (Will not be its released name), is 20-30 more than the first.
45 new ships and countng!
I know this because I have it and it is not close to being done with adding many new things.
These many things that I have in front of me you still insist do not exist.
When this is released we shall see if you will be man enough to comment.
I predict it will sell out quickly.
Let us see who is right on game day!

Wulfmann

[SubSerpent]

Wait a minute, there's going to be another one? How much is that going to cost? I am still not understanding how a company that isn't UBIsoft is allowed to profit on mods that require the original game's engine to funtion in the first place? Does this company have the SDK for the original game and make brand new content or are they just charging people for some simple tweaks and edits to the original game that most of the regulars here at subsim.com already know how to do and do it for free for the community?

[jasonb885]

Wait a minute, there's going to be another one? How much is that going to cost? I am still not understanding how a company that isn't UBIsoft is allowed to profit on mods that require the original game's engine to funtion in the first place? Does this company have the SDK for the original game and make brand new content or are they just charging people for some simple tweaks and edits to the original game that most of the regulars here at subsim.com already know how to do and do it for free for the community?

For the original mod they both stold mods from the community and implemented some of their own poor mods.

I have no knowledge of the current mod Woofy is aroused over other than it's by the same people that scammed the community the first time.

Apparently Wolfy isn't familiar with 'fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...'

:up:

[jasonb885]

J885? Blind????


Whine?


I actually have the beta now. How are you so sure that what I see is not there? You are telling me that what I see and experience does not exist.
Interesting that in complete ignorance you live with such bliss.


Good for you, working with scammers in exchange for a free copy of the result. Aren't you a good little tool, eh?

You, once again, skillfully twist words and divert the subject. I do admire that, Goebels would be proud.


Hardly. You feel scammers stealing from the community to make a buck somehow further's goals other than the spammers.

I disagree.

You try to play X1 up as being noble because you claim they're igniting or rekindling interest in any existing product and thus should be lauded as heros.

Funny, that. You're a shill, nothing more.


All I said was that anything that generates interest in SH3 helps the community.


Then we disagree. I don't believe people being ripped off helps the community or the person being ripped off.


The sold out sales figures of the first Seawolves suggest it is far from an unwanted product.


Show me the money baby.


You insist that it is impossible for someone to see this and then want SH3 (likely they had not seen that yet?)


I declare it as unlikely. Since no scientific poll with ever be conducted and I'll never see this record sell out data you claim exists for SeaWolves, it's a moot point.


While I had nothing to do with that original in any way, I, like most here, had no reason to consider it as what was produced my the mod community better suited my taste.


You're putting words in others' mouths, eh?

No reason to consider it a fraud except extensive evidence indicating such was the case, disputed only by you.


But, the next one, in Beta called Seawolves Mediterranean (Will not be its released name), is 20-30 more than the first.
45 new ships and countng!
I know this because I have it and it is not close to being done with adding many new things.


Indeed.


These many things that I have in front of me you still insist do not exist.
When this is released we shall see if you will be man enough to comment.
I predict it will sell out quickly.
Let us see who is right on game day!
Wulfmann

What things? I never claimed a new expansion wasn't being worked on, only that the original SeaWolves was a fraud and you continue to insist on defending it by stating that anything that increases interest in SH3 is good. Meanwhile, you can't prove SeaWolves either,

a) Increased interest in SH3 outside those already familiar with the product
b) Wasn't a repackage of stolen community mods

Until you can do either of the former, seriously, shut up.

:|\

[Gizzmoe]

Guys, please discuss like normal people and drop the hostile tone! If this goes on like this I´ll lock the thread.

[Wulfmann]

Sub serpent.
Seawolves is the only UBI authorized mod for SH3. That is correct. UBI has given them and only them the legal right to offer an add-on to SH3.
The fact they do not care that others make there own mods and share them is great for us all.
But, they have authorized Seawolves. They have permission from UBI to alter copyrighted files. No one else does.
While Jason cries like a school girl making false statements never proven by anyone other than the choir when facts were disallowed the first add on sold out. He is in denial but when I go to the sites offering it, always the same; sold out.
While I had nothing to do with the first one and only advise on historical matters in the next one and run the game and report results I can tell you it is filled with new ships, effects, campaigns, missions etc etc etc and they are all new stuff built for it.
Those here that believe we represent the 100,000 people that have bought SH3 please post the figures for number of members and threads. That will prove me wrong.
Or, just keep making false statements like Jason and trash anyone that has a different view. That only indicates a weak argument which is all Jason seems to want.

G, wouldn’t blame you. Discussion about this add on to SH3 would seem like a part of what the community would want, whether one likes it or not. But, perhaps we should have an “Ask Jason first” sticky, so we know what is considered proper party line discussion.
We can call it: Heil Jason!
Wulfmann

[jasondef]

OK, different Jason here. It seems evident that the first seawolves mod did rip-off the mod community. Nobody disputes that. What seems to be getting confused in this discussion is that the next upcoming Sea Wolves Mediteranean mod is also ripping off the mod community. I don't see how that can be proved at least until it hits the shelves and we can examine its contents ourselves (as I have stated before). Wulfmann (sorry, not Wulframm! :oops:) says they have learned their lesson, and this next Med mod will not rip-off the mod community, and it will in fact use mods that they themselves create (the proof will be in the pudding). Since he is the only one here that has seen it, any other argument seems to me to be pure speculation.

And its good for Ubisoft to have the mod community do their thing, and let official expansion packs do their thing from Ubi's perspective. Whatever adds playability or "usability" to the product from their perspective adds more sales figures for them, no matter what anybody says; this is an absolute truth to any sales and marketting plan of any product. No need for a scientific study, just ask any marketting executive of any product or any promotions team of any company.

[CWorth]

Guys, please discuss like normal people and drop the hostile tone! If this goes on like this I´ll lock the thread.

Maybe you should lock it and lock every other thread started that deals with the subject.

They never bode well..and always turn into an argument anyway.

Besides the subject is getting tiresome.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Funny. In that X-1 Seawolves release they did not even bother to change the dates of file creation for files from my mods. I do not even need to check the content of the files. And I also know that they could not make multi-skinned ships at least until Dec 23, 2005 because that is when they contacted me asking for conversion of their two ships to multi-skinned.

This is a case closing statement from Sergbuto as far as I am concerned. It also explains to me why it seems Sergbuto seems to be a little bit reticent to share exactly how he does some of his modifications with the community here... He's been burned before and who can you trust?

X1=Thieves... a blind and deaf man could figure this out. Whether they have "the rights" to do so or not... what they are doing is unethical and sleazy.

BTW... JasonB885 it is GREAT to see you back at subsim man. :up: :up: :up:

Moderators, I vote you lock this thread. It gives the wrong sort more audience and consideration than they deserve.

[Razman23]

45 new ships?

Would you please post a list of these 45 new ships you speak of?

[SubSerpent]

Sub serpent.
Seawolves is the only UBI authorized mod for SH3. That is correct. UBI has given them and only them the legal right to offer an add-on to SH3.
The fact they do not care that others make there own mods and share them is great for us all.
But, they have authorized Seawolves. They have permission from UBI to alter copyrighted files. No one else does.
While Jason cries like a school girl making false statements never proven by anyone other than the choir when facts were disallowed the first add on sold out. He is in denial but when I go to the sites offering it, always the same; sold out.
While I had nothing to do with the first one and only advise on historical matters in the next one and run the game and report results I can tell you it is filled with new ships, effects, campaigns, missions etc etc etc and they are all new stuff built for it.
Those here that believe we represent the 100,000 people that have bought SH3 please post the figures for number of members and threads. That will prove me wrong.
Or, just keep making false statements like Jason and trash anyone that has a different view. That only indicates a weak argument which is all Jason seems to want.

G, wouldn’t blame you. Discussion about this add on to SH3 would seem like a part of what the community would want, whether one likes it or not. But, perhaps we should have an “Ask Jason first” sticky, so we know what is considered proper party line discussion.
We can call it: Heil Jason!
Wulfmann


You still side stepped my question. It was - Does X1 own a copy of the SDK for Silent Hunter III? Did UBIsoft give them a working copy of the SDK for Silent Hunter III? If not I don't see why anyone would buy an add-on for this game that doesn'y really add on anything new except tweaks, hacks, and modifications to what is already there and what is already being down here for FREE! If the uodates to the game are completely new content that was created with the official SDK for the SHIII from UBIsoft then I would most eagerly want to buy it. However, claiming that the game has ALL NEW content but is really just skin paint jobs and edits to the .dat files and .ini files and .cfg files isn't and doesn't really show any NEW content. NEW means NEW! And that is only achieved by the people who created something from the ground up, not from people who modify someone elses work. For instance, I can't copy words from the book 'Pet Cemetary" by Stephen King and mixed them all around and make a version of it another way and call it a "NEW" work of art. That is illegal, it's called plagerism.

[Wulfmann]

I believe, Not sure, they are listed at the Combat Planes site.
Since many are converted like others do some are similar to what has been done but original conversions and most are never before done conversions.
But, now they are doing ground up new ships and I am not at liberty to say which.
When Jason was formulating Improved Convoys I suggested he add the early sloops as escorts since they were the main escorts for convoys in 39 and early 40.
I had added the names of those classes to the Black Swan (It’s a sloop but the devs called it a Frigate) and even posted what I did so Jason could use it.
I say this because I want to preempt any suggestion that the new Seawolves stole from Jason what I gave him. Seawolves, however, have made 3 very nice Sloops from the one Black Swan model to make 4 in all.
So, “I” suggested they make the sloops and they never saw Jason’s convoys and had no idea until I pointed this out.
Besides new variations in British cruisers and battleships there are two Italian cruisers, new US DDs and British, Russian even a Turkish and Spanish DD (I am not sure why, LOL) and new merchant ships.
I addressed the Serg cargo ships and the names being changed by request to eliminate any confusion but some simply ignore explanations that do not allow their witch hunt mentality.

Wulfmann

Here is one of the Italian cruisers and one of the sloops

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/Italian-CL-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/Sloop-3.jpg

[SubSerpent]

Were they created with the official SDK from UBIsoft or are they merely modifications/edits/hacks to what was in the original game?

[Wulfmann]

If not I don't see why anyone would buy an add-on for this game that doesn'y really add on anything new except tweaks, hacks, and modifications to what is already there and what is already being down here for FREE! .

No, I can only say so much.
But, since you insinuate this stuff can be had for free, please point me to the free Italian cruisers, the free career you run in 23rd Flotilla out of Salamis or the one out of Constantza in the Black Sea in Type II boats.
Please show me the free US and Canadian cruiser download and dozen of ships I can not find.

I do not believe many of the dozens of members here will buy this and they don't care. Their first small mediocre add on sold out. This one is huge by comparison and will be a very successful everywhere but this forum.

I don’t advise them to get a free game. I offered my advise to UBI for free and have been ignored. Result, many historic inaccuracies that could have been avoided. Can they get this advise elsewhere. Well, it historic reference but they missed a lot at UBI so someone screwed up. I told X-1 the same thing. Tell me what you are doing and I will let you know (if I actually do know) if it is correct. I have studied naval history since the early 1960’s. So have many others. Apparently not at UBI. It s easier to advise before than fix later and I run a patrol every day, bar none. The better the game at release, the less I have to correct. That is my motivation. I prefer to advice in a constructible manner while others prefer the flame thread riot approach.

Neal sent me (like I am sure everyone here got) the new Tank sim. Link. I clicked over and it looks very cool and I will likely buy it. I noticed another Tank sim and a paid add on to it. Then I noticed on that paid add on they also included the freeware mods by the community at no extra charge.
Interesting.

What a difference a forum makes

Wulfmann

[SubSerpent]

Why do you defend them so? Are they paying you to solicit on this forum and try to persuade us to buy from them? If that's the case, then you are pissin in the wind my friend, cause you can talk to the hand cause the face don't want to hear it!

Isn't that against forum policy? Soliciting without offical approval on Neal's website?

Who is Wulfmann anyways? Always thought the one from the Top Gun movie was kind of a pansy BrokeBack Mountain gay boy!

Wulfmann, don't you have better things to do? Like hand out rainbow pride stickers to get support for your kind or is X1 paying you with gerbals?

[Wulfmann]

I have been playing SH3 for tens months. Just now I was attacking a small convoy in the beta Seawolves med. I called in air support and got into a shoot out with the escorts a Destroyer and 2 of those new Frigates (Sloops) The Luftwaffe arrived and sank a troop ship and a small tanker and one Ju88 that was shot down crashed into the Frigate about 200 yards from my peri view. Very cool. I sank the destroyer and a merchant but took some DCes in the stern area causing major (red) flooding in three compartments and destroying half my batteries and one electric engine. The boat started plunging so I blew ballast three times went to flank forward (2Kts with all the damage) and crept my way back from 180 meters.
One Frigate was still after me as by now the convoy was clear with one Frigate staying with the merchant ships.
I had no choice, I had to surface.
I fired 2 fish but the range was too close. I went to the deck gun in desperation but these sloops have three gun positions so I went back to lining up the last 2 fish for a 90% angle shot but his last broadside was too much, he nailed me good and U-83 went down.
This was the best struggle I have ever had in SH3 of this type. It was an hour of constant fighting to save the boat after the first damage.
I have had many new unique experiences with this add on that I never had before and many new ships and effects have really made this a different game in many ways.
Even setting up to attack a convoy after dusk and realizing at the last minute it was a friendly convoy taking supplies to Rommel with a cruiser escort (above screen) was a new experience.
However, sharing these things and hoping the thousands that buy this add on might wish to come to a friendly forum and learn from some knowledgeable people and enlarge our community seems like an unwelcome thought.
Perhaps it is better that Seawolves buyers go to another site where they will not be attacked for enjoying an add on.
I can check with other sites and have them add a SH3 forum where these people can go and not contaminate the elitist crowd that should not condescend to anyone that enjoys Seawolves.
It is surely beneath you.
I am surprised the moderators have not banned me for enjoying Seawolves and sharing what I believe will add to the enjoyment on SH3 players.
I have a Seawolves and regular version on my bigger PC as they are unique enough to want both.
You are correct Seaserpent in that I should not assume small minded hate group supporters that are homophobic and can only debate a position by name calling and low mentality remarks could even consider an alternative to their way or the highway.

While I am not gay (I have had 4 children and have 6 grandchildren) I have no problem with any such group and assure any that may be gay the majority of people here are not infantile homophobic disrespectful children such as Subserpent. This usually indicates a hidden attraction but I think his remarks speak for themselves.

How about others? Do you think mentioning Seawolves in anything but trashing the add-on should be forbidden on this forum?
Do you want to completely ignore the upgrades or hearing about them at all?
Out of site, out of mind?
I get nothing for sharing my experience and since I do not work for them I feel like a neutral observer that can offer update notifications as well as help after it is released. I can stop posting completely on this subject and if this forum prefers that for the sake of peace I respectfully ask any moderator to make the request and it will happen. Then when a new person comes on and ask you can go back to your hate crusade and those people can learn they are not welcome here.

Wulfmann

[zombiewolf]

:zzz:

[jasonb885]

Sub serpent.
Seawolves is the only UBI authorized mod for SH3. That is correct. UBI has given them and only them the legal right to offer an add-on to SH3.
The fact they do not care that others make there own mods and share them is great for us all.


Eh?

I'm certainly never buying another UBI product again. Screw that.


But, they have authorized Seawolves. They have permission from UBI to alter copyrighted files. No one else does.


How sad.


While Jason cries like a school girl making false statements never proven by anyone other than the choir when facts were disallowed the first add on sold out. He is in denial but when I go to the sites offering it, always the same; sold out.


That still tells you nothing. You don't know the quantity of copies available. It's easy to have only a few on hand so you can 'sell out' or maybe it's so unpopular it's simply not in stock often.

You can draw any conclusion you want without numbers to back them up.

Funny, that.


While I had nothing to do with the first one and only advise on historical matters in the next one and run the game and report results I can tell you it is filled with new ships, effects, campaigns, missions etc etc etc and they are all new stuff built for it.


Exactly my point. You have some vested interest in the success of the latest release by these scam artists. Anything you say is hardly objective.


Those here that believe we represent the 100,000 people that have bought SH3 please post the figures for number of members and threads. That will prove me wrong.
Or, just keep making false statements like Jason and trash anyone that has a different view. That only indicates a weak argument which is all Jason seems to want.


What weak argument? Your words are based purely on smoke screen.

It was clearly proven the original SeaWolves contained mods that were used without the consent of the authors. That is _fact_. Period.

As you did then, you _continue_ to condon this behavior openly. Given your obvious stake in this most recent 'product', I am not at all surprised you're a CP shill.


G, wouldn’t blame you. Discussion about this add on to SH3 would seem like a part of what the community would want, whether one likes it or not. But, perhaps we should have an “Ask Jason first” sticky, so we know what is considered proper party line discussion.
We can call it: Heil Jason!

For the longest time I couldn't tell if you were merely hopelessly misguided or a shill.

The jury is finally in.

<No name-calling!!! - Gizzmoe>

:lol:

[jasonb885]

OK, different Jason here. It seems evident that the first seawolves mod did rip-off the mod community. Nobody disputes that. What seems to be getting confused in this discussion is that the next upcoming Sea Wolves Mediteranean mod is also ripping off the mod community. I don't see how that can be proved at least until it hits the shelves and we can examine its contents ourselves (as I have stated before). Wulfmann (sorry, not Wulframm! :oops:) says they have learned their lesson, and this next Med mod will not rip-off the mod community, and it will in fact use mods that they themselves create (the proof will be in the pudding). Since he is the only one here that has seen it, any other argument seems to me to be pure speculation.


It goes beyond that. The tools behind SeaWolves have a _history_ of using mods without permission for other games as well. There is a long, proven track record of deception here. Period.

Bottom line -- do you want to purchase from a known community ripoff operation or not?

Obviously Wulfy thinks you should, but then he clearly has a vested interest in copies selling... and he claims you do too by making a logically fallacious argument that anything that improves visibility of the original SH3 is somehow good for the community as a whole. Hardly so.

[jasonb885]

Funny. In that X-1 Seawolves release they did not even bother to change the dates of file creation for files from my mods. I do not even need to check the content of the files. And I also know that they could not make multi-skinned ships at least until Dec 23, 2005 because that is when they contacted me asking for conversion of their two ships to multi-skinned.

This is a case closing statement from Sergbuto as far as I am concerned. It also explains to me why it seems Sergbuto seems to be a little bit reticent to share exactly how he does some of his modifications with the community here... He's been burned before and who can you trust?


Wow. I hadn't seen that. That's a shame they ripped him off, too.


X1=Thieves... a blind and deaf man could figure this out. Whether they have "the rights" to do so or not... what they are doing is unethical and sleazy.

BTW... JasonB885 it is GREAT to see you back at subsim man. :up: :up: :up:

Moderators, I vote you lock this thread. It gives the wrong sort more audience and consideration than they deserve.

I didn't know anyone noticed I was gone.

It's a shame upon my return the same tired old threads are still being argued by the usual suspect.

In either case, the truth is here for anyone that cares to look.

:know:

[jasonb885]

...
When Jason was formulating Improved Convoys I suggested he add the early sloops as escorts since they were the main escorts for convoys in 39 and early 40.
I had added the names of those classes to the Black Swan (It’s a sloop but the devs called it a Frigate) and even posted what I did so Jason could use it.


And I appreciated the suggestion and still do.

Did CP 'borrow' my mod as well which is the work of myself and all those I listed in the README along with other suggestions from members of the SubSim community?

It would sadden me greatly.

:-?

[jasonb885]

Why do you defend them so? Are they paying you to solicit on this forum and try to persuade us to buy from them? If that's the case, then you are pissin in the wind my friend, cause you can talk to the hand cause the face don't want to hear it!

Isn't that against forum policy? Soliciting without offical approval on Neal's website?

Who is Wulfmann anyways? Always thought the one from the Top Gun movie was kind of a pansy BrokeBack Mountain gay boy!

Wulfmann, don't you have better things to do? Like hand out rainbow pride stickers to get support for your kind or is X1 paying you with gerbals?

He's been doing this for... gosh... Nearly a year now.

And it surprised me so to see he's still hanging around here pimping CP and X1.

Could be he's retired with way too much free time.

Who knows.

:roll:

[Gizzmoe]

I can stop posting completely on this subject and if this forum prefers that for the sake of peace I respectfully ask any moderator to make the request and it will happen.

You can post on this subject as much as you want.

My final words before I close this thread... The general tone in this thread is totally unacceptable. Do not attack people and do not respond to attacks with yet another attack. Some of you guys are now on my watch list. One more personal attack/name-calling and you´ll get a warning. Any violation after that will get you suspended for 7 days.