Of cartoons, censorship, and hysteria

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4664408.stm

All this for a - cartoon...??? I said worse things about GWB - and I'm still alive, and unthreatend.

I wish there were pills against hysteria and unbalanced mindsets. Islam itself is lying about the image and understanding it has on the figure of Muhammad, Islam is not in correspondence with the historical biography of Muhammad, ignoring anything in his life and personality that could irritate Islam's intentions and self-definitions. So, their rage and critizism about that cartoon is - lying, and hypocritical, and a self-deception. Sometimes these types really kill my nerves.

[jumpy]

Ah! the time-honoured double standard! gotta love it....
How many times do we (in the west) have to listen to vitreolic arab bile concerning so many issues? (usually their bleeding heart) yet when it comes to their precious islam, all and sundry have to bow and scrape obesiance for fear of stirring up the rabble. Well, here's some of my own-

I have a suggestion: If you don't like freedom of the press and such like, then don't read those evil pig-dog newspapers and their western lies! then maybe you won't be so offended, allah be praised! Likewise if you want to live in a muslim comunity with your muslim laws and customs held as paramount and above all others, don't moan when you come and live in a 'foreign' country and discover that they don't pray to mecca 5 times a day... or that they have a more relaxed and humerous take on religion in general- take your damn bigoted, backwards proselytising elsewhere please.
I wonder what would happen to me if I were to invade the muslim council of brittain brandishing ak47's and high religious rhetoric, demanding appologies for the racist, inflamatory and hate filled words that have come from the out of the mouths of many prominent muslim figures over the years?
Time we start to kick those kind of people out of our countries and send them back to wherever they came from, safe in the knowlege that they'll be more content with their life when they get there and are surrounded by familiar bigotry and destitution, where the only real going concern is what to do about the village upstream that has been pissing in the river again while your women (subjugated yet revered) are trying to wash your clothes.

Maybe that's a bit strong (and in truth is not meant to be taken seriously and at face value at all) but if the west was anything even close to having the same high strung feelings towards many muslim states and organisations as they appear to have towards us, then we would have obliterarted them countless times over for their preceived misdeeds against our social order and moral and religious piety.

Finally I have this to say:
rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

oh dear, time for another pill :doh:

[Konovalov]

Earlier thread: http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46794

[MadMike]

Here's a link to the cartoons in question-

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Yours, Mike

[August]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4664408.stm

All this for a - cartoon...??? I said worse things about GWB - and I'm still alive, and unthreatend.

Now you know why i tend to get irritated when people call Bush a terrorist.

Anyways here's some more pics of Muhammed for everyones viewing pleasure. Characterizing him is nothing new:

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

[McBeck]

Well im danish, and ....well...what can I say....
They just dont understand that the goverment CAN NOT tell a newspaper what to do :damn:

[TteFAboB]

I find the generalization interesting, the critics protest against Denmark in general, the Danish government and the Danish people.

This shows alot about how the critics view their own societies, they cannot understand a society without a King or a Bishop with absolute power.

[August]

I find the generalization interesting, the critics protest against Denmark in general, the Danish government and the Danish people.

Its now extended to the Norweigans and Swedes as well.

[Ahoy!]

A Norwegian christian newspaper printed the cartoons as well and yesterday they were burning Danish and Norwegian flags in Gaza. The so called "moderate" moslems in this country have also showed their ugly face, saying the editor who printed the cartoons must "expect" murder threats.
Our nation(s) have fought hard for freedom of speech and we will NEVER let us be dictaded by some medieval barbaric religion. It`s time our politicians show which side we`re on.

[Oberon]

That must be a lucrative market.

Flag making in the middle-east. :hmm:

[Type XXIII]

First of all, let me say that I strongly condemn the threats, the flag-burning and the diplomatic actions taken by Saudi-Arabia and Lybia. (Notice which powers that are reacting most fiercely to this issue, not Hamas in Palestine, Iran or Al Qaeda, which have received pepper in the past, but for instance Fatah, Saudi-Arabia and Lybia.)

Secondly let me point out the irony this. Some people (also within this thread) are accusing Islam in general, and muslims in general for generalization.

It is understandable that muslims dislike these drawings, as pictures of the Prophet are considered sacrilege within Islam. And, while the western world tends to take religion less seriously, it is common among muslims to take their religion very seriously.

Freedom of speech means that you have the right to say what you want, but not the duty. I think it is important to respect other cultures, and not offend them needlessly.

As I said, people tend to generalize, and let me point out that not all muslims have reacting with flag-burning and terror threats, consider this (http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/45/454/454292/jp2.jpg) picture. It shows Danish muslims demonstrating against the pictures. The plakes read "Yes to dialog between civilizations and no to conflicts between civilizations", "To mock the prophet Mohammed is to mock more than 1.5 millions people" and "Yes to a freedom that unites and doesn't divide." Would any of you object to this demonstration? If you do, I won't hesitate to call you racist.

Also, I think the editor of the Norwegian Magazinet is a jerk. Standing up for Freedom of expression, indeed. He knew printing the cartoons would offend muslims yet still went ahead and did so.

[Skybird]

First of all, let me say that I strongly condemn the threats, the flag-burning and the diplomatic actions taken by Saudi-Arabia and Lybia. (Notice which powers that are reacting most fiercely to this issue, not Hamas in Palestine, Iran or Al Qaeda, which have received pepper in the past, but for instance Fatah, Saudi-Arabia and Lybia.)

Secondly let me point out the irony this. Some people (also within this thread) are accusing Islam in general, and muslims in general for generalization.

It is understandable that muslims dislike these drawings, as pictures of the Prophet are considered sacrilege within Islam. And, while the western world tends to take religion less seriously, it is common among muslims to take their religion very seriously.

Freedom of speech means that you have the right to say what you want, but not the duty. I think it is important to respect other cultures, and not offend them needlessly.

As I said, people tend to generalize, and let me point out that not all muslims have reacting with flag-burning and terror threats, consider this (http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/45/454/454292/jp2.jpg) picture. It shows Danish muslims demonstrating against the pictures. The plakes read "Yes to dialog between civilizations and no to conflicts between civilizations", "To mock the prophet Mohammed is to mock more than 1.5 millions people" and "Yes to a freedom that unites and doesn't divide." Would any of you object to this demonstration? If you do, I won't hesitate to call you racist.

Also, I think the editor of the Norwegian Magazinet is a jerk. Standing up for Freedom of expression, indeed. He knew printing the cartoons would offend muslims yet still went ahead and did so.

Assuming you maybe also mean me with "generalizing people", I would urge you to use the search-button. There are several VERY long topics I have posted on Islam in recent months, and i have quite some background knowledge on it, and experience in Muslim countries. There is a whole load of reasons why I accuse Islam the way I do, but i do not intend to list them in repeating topics again and again. You can find it all when you search for it. Additionally to these long threads (that I started or participated in), I made these essays:

http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/HistoryOfIslam_2_IslamQuranHadith.doc
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/HistoryOfIslam_1_Forword.doc

You are probably a well-meaning believer of the good in all men, and think if you want to know about Islam, you ask Islam and believe what it says without seeing the need to test what it says, and check if it is true and proven by it's behavior. that it may try to let itself shine in glory and remain silent about all the black spots it has in it's record maybe does not come to your mind. What Islam says that it is, is something very different than what it reveals about itself in it's history, AND in it's scriptures (which are filled with contradiction, lacking authenticity, and opportunism). well-meaning or not, your views must result in a highly biased and one-sided opinion in favour of Islam that way, ignorring all the contradictions that always have been part of it's highly expansive, militant and totalitarian identity. You also must miss that Islam may have intentions that are against your own intentions, so that it is hiding them from you and tells you the things you want to hear instead, that way making you opening the doors and gates in your home for it. There is no such thing as tolerant Islam. Their either is Islam, or tolerance, but not both, and I have illustrated that in many historical examples in past writings of mine. Where there is both, Muslims claim to be Muslims on the basis of a seriously flawed understanding. My understanding I base on the example set by Muhammad himself, and I don't mean the fiction that Islam has created around him, but the historical Muhammad.

the church was never in correspondence with Jesus' teachings, to the disadvantage of it's followers. but Islam is in correspondence with it's scriptures, and it is based on an imitation of a seriously distorted recognition of Muhammad. Again it is to people's disadvantage. If the church would be in correspondence with Jesus' teachings, and Islam would stop to be in correspondence with it's own tradition and scriptures, then this would be a benefit for all. But that way the church wouldn'T be the church anymore, and Islam wouldn'T be Islam. We only have the worst of both traditions, so the question is not about who is right, Islam or Christianity, but only: who is the strongest.

[Skybird]

That must be a lucrative market.

Flag making in the middle-east. :hmm:
:lol: Maybe their leaders are involved in that business...

[TLAM Strike]

We insulted their most fundamental belief with a cartoon and they insulted ours by suggesting we censor our freedom of speech and press. Now lets flush a few Korans to make up for the flag burning and the universe will be even. :hmm:

I’m glad Libya and the Saudis pulled their embassies, personally I wouldn’t want to talk to such people if this is how they react. :roll:

[Ahoy!]

That must be a lucrative market.

Flag making in the middle-east. :hmm:

They looked quite home made to me, you just gave me a business idea. Let them burn the "real thing", a welcome respite for Americans and Israelis ;)
Ooops I forgot, they will boycott Norway and Denmark. Well, I gonna buy a LEGO set to my nephew and in the weekend I will eat Danish sausages and drink lovely Carlsberg beer.

[jumpy]

He knew printing the cartoons would offend muslims yet still went ahead and did so.

Innevitably that's what selling newspapers is all about :shifty:
But at the same time getting all hot and bothered about some unscroupulus editors attempts to sell more newspapers with attention grabing articles, pictures or boobies on page three or whatever, is just not worth diplomatic and social trouble.
Death threats are a bit too much and issued way too freely when something is decided to be 'blasphemous', particularily where some of the hardline islamic beliefs reside. Drawing silly pictures is just that- silly pictures. I could maybe understand such a thing if the image of the prophet were depicting some explicit sexual act or other gross suggestion that would be unseemly of Muhammad or any other such figure- that would be in terrribly bad taste and I think many people would recognise the slighted reaction and outrage as entirely just.
But unless I've been looking at the wrong link, theres nothing about those cartoons that deserves (imo) provoking such a violent reaction.
Tollerence and understanding is all very well and good, and those who advocate dialog between peoples deserve our support. But why does there always have to be some disgruntled group complaining and pushing for more rights, more recognition, more defferential treatment which impinges on the host nation, who are usually fairly open and relaxed to just aboubt anything its citizens whish to to?
I don't get it... we have freedom of speech and (to a reasonable extent) action to do as we please and you want more freedom, specifically the right to tell other's what the can or can not say or do or publish because you find it offensive as a minority? That doesn't quite make sense; you want freedom to express yourselves but are not comfortable with extending that right to those who's hospitality you so fully enjoy.
Now that's just not polite.

This is not to say that there are not muslims who don't really care about all this cartoon hoo-ha and are happy to get on with their lives the same as the rest of us, but as usual only the most vocal and strident voices are paid any attention, which is probably why they do it.

[TLAM Strike]

Well, I gonna buy a LEGO set to my nephew and in the weekend I will eat Danish sausages and drink lovely Carlsberg beer. And I shall eat a Danish in support of my northern European friends! :-j

Oh and the Danish invented LEGOs? Wow you learn something new everyday. I think I might take my LEGO Russian Foxtrot out of the closet in support too! :up:

[Iceman]

What can I say...I will let this one go by. Just PAR for the course.

Always was suspicious of those ole danes..lol. jk

P.S. Thks Mike for the link to the pics...watched the South Park Episode lol...http://www.scientomogy.com/south_park_scientology.phpLMAO... :rotfl:

[Skybird]

We insulted their most fundamental belief with a cartoon and they insulted ours by suggesting we censor our freedom of speech and press. Now lets flush a few Korans to make up for the flag burning and the universe will be even. :hmm:

I’m glad Libya and the Saudis pulled their embassies, personally I wouldn’t want to talk to such people if this is how they react. :roll:
Thorughout history Muhammad has been depicted in islamic countries, in books and scriptuires, portraits, even on housewalls in present time. Another example of how islam so often speaks hypocritical with split tongues. If their belief can be insulted that easily, and if their god can be offended so easily, than both cannot be very impressive in quality, essence and format. It'S a medieval or earlier society that thinks that such things are important and can be offending to any deity. This also means that it cannot behave any different than it does. it got stuck many centuries ago

[McBeck]

Gees...this is from the news today:

1) Hamas demands that the goverment punishes the newspaper and the artists

2) A local danish politicians started a SMS campaign to stop people from buying middleeastern goods. :nope:

3) The apolegy from the newspaper has FINALY made it to the middleeastern medias...after it has been wrongly translated and such.
(Wonder why it took so long? They made it last week...)

4) Indonesia is joining the hysteria too.

5) A french newspaper has printed the cartoons too....without prior accept from Jyllandsposten (The danish newspaper that original printed them)

Whats next?!?!?! :stare: :down:

[Torplexed]

Cartoonists are evil. They should be shot on sight. :yep:

[joea]

BANG

[The Avon Lady]

5) A french newspaper has printed the cartoons too....without prior accept from Jyllandsposten (The danish newspaper that original printed them)

Whats next?!?!?! :stare: :down:
German, Spanish and Italian papers, too (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4670370.stm)!

And we're all being asked to buy Danish butter cookies. OK, I can live with that. :yep:

[August]

I say good for the Euros.

[The Avon Lady]

Another for the collection:

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/1673/03wp.jpg

[CCIP]

I drew a picture of Mohammed in one of my classes today.

No, I didn't show anyone :shifty:

[August]

I drew a picture of Mohammed in one of my classes today.

No, I didn't show anyone :shifty:

Allah knows. You're doomed infidel.

[retired1212]

nm

[Onkel Neal]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11097877/
Editor fired after publication of Islam cartoons

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060201/060201_cartoon_protest_hmed_6a.hmedium.jpg

But hey, it's ok if a bunch of black cloaked freaks rip your national flag :roll:

[Marhkimov]

Ironic, isn't it?

They feel that it's NOT ok for the Danes to publish obscene cartoons... But it is totally ok for some pussy-assed-hoodlums dressed in black masks to deface/burn another country's national flag...


Oh, what morals they do have (or have not)...

[The Avon Lady]

Ironic, isn't it?

They feel that it's NOT ok for the Danes to publish obscene cartoons... But it is totally ok for some pussy-assed-hoodlums dressed in black masks to deface/burn another country's national flag...


Oh, what morals they do have (or have not)...
None (http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm).

Ironic indeed! :roll:

[Torplexed]

Quite the subtle cartoons there Avon.

I don't recall his much Muslim outrage when the rather Islamic Taliban decided to deface the ancient symbol of another religion....the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan...by shelling and explosives. Do as we say...not as we do. :roll:

http://media.msnbc.msn.com/j/msnbc/1321000/1321950.widec.jpg

[STEED]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4664408.stm

All this for a - cartoon...??? I said worse things about GWB - and I'm still alive, and unthreatend.

I wish there were pills against hysteria and unbalanced mindsets. Islam itself is lying about the image and understanding it has on the figure of Muhammad, Islam is not in correspondence with the historical biography of Muhammad, ignoring anything in his life and personality that could irritate Islam's intentions and self-definitions. So, their rage and critizism about that cartoon is - lying, and hypocritical, and a self-deception. Sometimes these types really kill my nerves.


Just a lot of hot heads

[The Avon Lady]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4664408.stm

All this for a - cartoon...??? I said worse things about GWB - and I'm still alive, and unthreatend.

I wish there were pills against hysteria and unbalanced mindsets. Islam itself is lying about the image and understanding it has on the figure of Muhammad, Islam is not in correspondence with the historical biography of Muhammad, ignoring anything in his life and personality that could irritate Islam's intentions and self-definitions. So, their rage and critizism about that cartoon is - lying, and hypocritical, and a self-deception. Sometimes these types really kill my nerves.
Just a lot of hot heads
Yeh.

Pushovers (http://www.alghurabaa.co.uk/articles/new/cartoon.htm). :shifty: (Read here (http://www.alghurabaa.co.uk/about.html) for info about this UK group)

[Neptunus Rex]

My concern is the source of the "rage" over these cartoons. Are they actually personnaly affronted or is their reaction a requirement of their faith?

The former I can understand, but the latter one is the one that scares me. I kind of get the same feeling when I'm in a room with a known sociopath!

[Skybird]

My concern is the source of the "rage" over these cartoons. Are they actually personnaly affronted or is their reaction a requirement of their faith?

The former I can understand, but the latter one is the one that scares me. I kind of get the same feeling when I'm in a room with a known sociopath!
Originally, pictures of "holy people", holy things and gods were forbidden in various religions, to prevent the risk of people falling victim to false idols. Just think of the golden Cow in the bible, or Zen's "anti-tradition" of non-written tradition, Huineng's enligthened burning of books, and the Jews saying the name of God cannot be pronounced. But this current story reveals Islam's demand that sooner or later all mankind and all world have to live to it's rules, for Islam is the truth, and Muslims have the obligation to help Islam "improving" the world. we all here agree that it is totally nuts how Muslims worldwide behave about this. It is ridiculous and tells us that they expect us and demand us to live by their principlesl rules, ignore our own laws and traditiond and that we shall not have any right to refuse Islam. From their perspective it cannot be understood that we do not want to be like them. I say: how could one want to be like them? :lol: Seen that way, I think the uproar has benefits for the West, and I hope it fuses even some more hysteria amongst Muslims - because maybe some people in the West can no longer evade to realize what an egocentric monster they were nursing in their attempts to tame Islam. You cannot tame Islam. It will always try to overcome you. It is part of it's DNA, it's most essential elements of identity. due to it's non-authentic origin it has no basis it can refwer to as the basis of it's foundation, that way, it has no "strong stand" - and because of it's own lacking authenticity it necessarily must feel threatend by ANYTHING; no matter how minor it is, that is not itself, and is different to itself. That'S why Islam has no other option than to subjugate non-islamic things, people, places, so that they cannot doubt Islam anymore and therebay remind it ow it's own many contradictions, weaknesses, and distortions. May I remind you that it started with Muhammad studying Christian and Jewish teachings by himself, and when having done so he thought that now he was on equal terms and same status than their theologists. when he met the Jewsih theologist at medina, they ate him up alive in theological disputes. This led a.) top the masscre of the third Jewish tribe at Medina, when he ordered all males to be slaughtered and all females beeing sent into slavery or harems: an act of revenge by a deeply offended personality, and b.) it led to Muhammads attemnpt to artificially create a thelogy that he constructed by himself and wanted it to be accepted as of not only equal, but superior quality than those theologies that taught him so obviously how little he had to offer to com pare himself to them. From a theologivcal view, I regard muhammad as a narcist imposter. That this creation of a new deity also helped him to secure privileges for himself and moving beyond critizism, I have explained often enough in the past.

In a way it is a most fundamental inferiority complex that islam tries to hide from it's own perception by overcompensating. Islam would no longer ber Islam if it stops to take over non-Islamic world and people. It's part of it's identity, and part of it's most vital mechanism of repression (Verdrängungsmechanismus).

In a thousand years from now on, they will still react in the same hysterical and primitve way they do today if then a new cartoon would be published on a news monitor. It's the conservation of a mediavl attitude of mind, and a medieval state of knowledge.

You cannot tame Islam.

It took me more than fifteen years, and learning much background information and many travellings to finally learn this. It's the most vital and essential thing we in the West need to understand about Islam: you cannot tame Islam.

[Skybird]

The remark on the "sociopath" holds some truth. A society that regularly produces suicide bombers, that propagates martyrism, where parents are proud if there sons commit massmurder and get killed during that, a society that opresses women, that sticxks to a lawsuit that still propagates penalties that are of medieval barbarism- ask yourself: can these social structures be considered to be healthy? Islam's sociology is deeply ill and sick to the bones, in a psychopathological understanding. Labelling it as sociopathic holds some truth. In the end it is basing on the very queer and unbalanced relationship between the sexes. If women are considered to be of less value than a dog, then one can say that Islam only knows one sex for mankind.

[Marhkimov]

I'd like to see if anyone here is brave enough to defend the general behavior of Islam....

Anyone? :hmm:

[retired1212]

I'd like to see if anyone here is brave enough to defend the general behavior of Islam....

Anyone? :hmm:


Unable to find the Mooses and Jesus cartoons made by Muslims showing them as terrorist and paedophile.
Though I am not Catholic but honestly saying, I didn't like the way the portrayal of late pope in the cartoons. He was a good man overall (at least I think so).

[MadMike]

"Everyone believes in something, I believe I'll have another beer" :up:

Does anyone know how to translate that into Arabic, and into arabic characters?

Yours, Mike

Note- I don't drink anymore, despite my massive contributions to the German economy...

[The Avon Lady]

I'd like to see if anyone here is brave enough to defend the general behavior of Islam....
Anyone? :hmm:
Unable to find the Mooses and Jesus cartoons made by Muslims showing them as terrorist and paedophile.
Found it!!!!

http://www.untrue-news.com/images/iraqi-and-bullwinkle.jpg

[tycho102]

Use our democracy against our democracy?

Ok. Fine.

We'll use your religion against your religion.

[The Avon Lady]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/763/09ra.jpg

[Type XXIII]

@Skybird

Firstly, don't make (hasty) assumptions about me taking part in 'the Humanistic Championship Rally' and having a biased view towards Islam. I'm always attempting to view something, especially within social sciences, from as many viewpoints as possibility. The anti-Islam viewpoint was, as far as I could see it, over-represented, therefore I was attacking your arguements, thus hopingly making you and other readers of this thread view the case from a different point of view, and not be blended by the rhetoric of someone you agree with. (As, I might add, the German people in the 30's were.) I do not actually expect you to change your point of view, but maybe I'll get someone to think, you have obviously done that a lot already and found your conclusions. That doesn't mean they're correct, however.


I am not defending the flag-burning, the threats and the claims that the governments should intervene. I am defending those muslims that are indifferent to the cartoons (yes, they exist,) and those that are displeased, but not violent.

As for your claim about a the medieval nature of caring about blasphemy, there is only 27 years ago Monty Python's Life of Brian was banned in Ireland, Italy, Norway and several areas within Great Britain. Middle Ages are apparently closer than we think.

(Of course, that was less violent protests, but still.)

I personally have met what I would call tolerant muslims, and people whose testimony I'm inclined to believe, have friends that they would call tolerant muslims. Assuming that there exists tolerant muslims, how do you defend your statement that there is no tolerant Islam?

"Not in a thousand year it will change." is a bit of an overstatement, and a rhetoric exaggeration. A thousand years ago, Norway was christened by sword. Much like the Arab world in the 8th to 12th centuries. Three hundred years ago, women were burned in the name of Christ because they knew how to cure diseases and held other bits of useful knowledge. 150 years ago, a large population within America was fighting for their right to treat other humans as property. Sixty-five years ago, Germans were burning Jews, Poles, Gypsies and Homo-sexuals.

A thousand years is a long time.

[Skybird]

@Skybird

Firstly, don't make (hasty) assumptions about me taking part in 'the Humanistic Championship Rally' and having a biased view towards Islam. I'm always attempting to view something, especially within social sciences, from as many viewpoints as possibility. The anti-Islam viewpoint was, as far as I could see it, over-represented, therefore I was attacking your arguements, thus hopingly making you and other readers of this thread view the case from a different point of view, and not be blended by the rhetoric of someone you agree with. (As, I might add, the German people in the 30's were.) I do not actually expect you to change your point of view, but maybe I'll get someone to think, you have obviously done that a lot already and found your conclusions. That doesn't mean they're correct, however.


I am not defending the flag-burning, the threats and the claims that the governments should intervene. I am defending those muslims that are indifferent to the cartoons (yes, they exist,) and those that are displeased, but not violent.

As for your claim about a the medieval nature of caring about blasphemy, there is only 27 years ago Monty Python's Life of Brian was banned in Ireland, Italy, Norway and several areas within Great Britain. Middle Ages are apparently closer than we think.

(Of course, that was less violent protests, but still.)

I personally have met what I would call tolerant muslims, and people whose testimony I'm inclined to believe, have friends that they would call tolerant muslims. Assuming that there exists tolerant muslims, how do you defend your statement that there is no tolerant Islam?

"Not in a thousand year it will change." is a bit of an overstatement, and a rhetoric exaggeration. A thousand years ago, Norway was christened by sword. Much like the Arab world in the 8th to 12th centuries. Three hundred years ago, women were burned in the name of Christ because they knew how to cure diseases and held other bits of useful knowledge. 150 years ago, a large population within America was fighting for their right to treat other humans as property. Sixty-five years ago, Germans were burning Jews, Poles, Gypsies and Homo-sexuals.

A thousand years is a long time.

Islam has not developed and chnaged much in the last thousand years, Type23. It has systemitcally neutralized all attempts to establish tradition sof philosohy, science, theology, law, that were sometijme more, sometimes less different from the interpretation of the orthodoxy. None of these traditions survived to a degree that today they play a significant role in Islam, that could change and influence Islam orthodoxy. Many of the prominent names tgrying to establish these traditions especially in the timeframe of 10th-14th century were killed. the others were silenced by other means prison, making them surrender, etc.) Islam today is very much the same than it was in the 10th century. VERY much the same.

You ask for tolerant Muslims and intolerant Islam, how this comes together. I was asked this repeatedly in recent weeks, and answered it at least two times, maybe more often, also was discussing it via emails with three members of the board. So this time I make it short only: both things you ask come together the same way in which they come together in chriszian relgion as well. In my country, a majority of people declare themselves top be christians. But a majority of these do not act like christians. Sometimes they follow traditions and rites, like going on church at christmas, while not spending any thought on spritual questions for the whole rest of the year, and maybe even not durcing christmas church trip. You can follow a religious teaching for reasons of traditiononly, or you have nothing else to do, or you never questioned the dogma, whatever. This does not mean that you are in correspondence with that relion's inner teachings. The church and Jesus' message I cannot bring together for example. That's why I make a strict differenc ebetween the church - and christian mystic and Jesus teachings. Both are worlds apart. so if someone does accoridng to the dogma of the church, he is not necessarily christian for that reason alone. He is "churchian".

Same with Islam. There may be people who describe themselves as muslims, but sticking to their very own and personal image of what it is about. But their personal representation, and "fanatsy", of what it's about, must not be in correspondence. That way, they believe in WHAT THEY THINK ISLAM is. If these people are convinced of the value of for example western humanistic values, they will try to argue that Islam is about these values. But the scriptures of Islam only partially would reflect that, and for eah quote you find you would also be able to find more quotes that are in contradiction to the first. Becasue Islam is not about such values, and it is about ruling and overcoming other cultural traditions, not about tolerating them eternally and coexist with them. People in the west, wantin g to appear to be peace-loving and humanistic and politically corretc., do not believe this easy. Mostly, because they never took care to build a substantial knowledge about Islam (theology, history, Muhammad, scripture and how they emerged and change in the first three centuries), and are feeded simply wrong information that distort historical facts or content of scriptures.

FULL STOP, BRAKES SLAM IN, MOVEMENT ZERO - Hm, this is getting too long, so I will try something different and leave this one open-ended. you guys think you are asking simple question on one level, but these issues have a complexity of different levels and perspectivesbeeing connected to it that short, brief answers are simply impossible (that's why 20 seconds-news-spots are so miuch bull**** and manipulative for the most). I sent a long letter to someone who was questioning my opinion, too, for comparable reasons like you do. We are very diffrent, or better: strictly opposed in our opinions, but still can manage to respect each other. Nevertheless, major parts of that letter are not any personal at all, but are like one of my usual essays or texts. I will post longer excerpts from that and clean them of any personal references, because 90% of that multi-page letter was an essay in fact, I hope (and think), my mail-partner at that time will not feel treated unfair that way, no personal adresses I will include. Watch out for an according separate thread by me tomorrow. Maybe it will help you to understand my answer to your question better, then.

Edit: DONE, thread is up.

[Onkel Neal]

I'd like to see if anyone here is brave enough to defend the general behavior of Islam....

Anyone? :hmm:

Not a matter of brave, I would have to agree with it first.

I find it fall-down funny, all this talk about some cartoons, but where the hell are they?? Why is it they are not included in the articles? I mean, we gotta know what it is we are talking about.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/danish005.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004413.htm

:arrgh!:

[Skybird]

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

If they ever would catch him, he will have all hell to suffer :lol: Muslim Offense Level has been raised to "High" (condition orange) :lol:

[The Avon Lady]

Muslim Offense Level has been raised to "High" (condition orange) :lol:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4343/06po.jpg

[MadMike]

Never mind depictions of Westerners and Israeli's in the Arab media-

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-21.htm

Heard some interesting info on the radio last night. Seems the "Council on American Islamic Relations" had a picture on their website soon after Sept 11th; after one clicked the link it asked for donations to "The Holy Land Foundation"- which of course was a front for Hamas.

Yours, Mike

[Ducimus]

Is this the true face of Islam?

I'm begining to wonder :hmm:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060202/060202_cartoon_protest_hmed_4p.rp420x400.jpg

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/afp/pbz05-0124102534.rp420x400.jpg

[Skybird]

Some minutes ago I received a mail by someone who told me that my past essays and comments on Islam's history reminded him of this:

http://www.patriotist.com/miscarch/cp20011119.htm

I see parallels.

[Happy Times]

The conflict is coming and US might get a all of EU next to them. Funny thing is that George Bush could be remembered when the history is written, as a the number one defender of western freedom. :D

[Ducimus]

The conflict is coming and US might get a all of EU next to them. Funny thing is that George Bush could be remembered when the history is written, as a the number one defender of western freedom. :D

I was bored one day, and copy/ed n pasted his latest state of the union address in MS Word. Since the start of it was so rhetorical, i was curious about something.

From begining to end, he used the word "freedom", 17 times.

[Onkel Neal]

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quaranteen them, until they advance out of the middle ages.

[Skybird]

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quaranteen them, until they advance out of the middle ages.
We're on the same side in this, differing only in minor details.

But we both know that this is unrealistic, isn't it...

[Happy Times]

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quaranteen them, until they advance out of the middle ages.
We're on the same side in this, differing only in minor details.

But we both know that this is unrealistic, isn't it... Well we better get it going because theres only 800 million of "us" stretching all over the planet.

[jumpy]

In regards to ex-patriot muslims (or any other denomination really) living in the UK who are causing public unrest and being generally offensive, I feel it would be a good idea to take a leaf out of Bahrain's attitude towards that kind of thing. Allow me to ellaborate; when I lived out there, it was well known in the western ex-pat community that if you transgressed the rules or broke the law in some fashion (think along the lines of commiting a crime or agitating the host nations public feeling) you would almost certainly be delivered to your respective embassy with clear instructions that you were to be deported forthwith and would not under any circumstances be welcome back into the country and would face arrest were you to attempt to re-enter the State of Bahrain. If your crime was serious then you were regarded as a foreign national and subject to your counrys law and judiciary, not Bahrains'. I don't know if this still holds true as its been a while since I was there.
I think this attitude coupled with a stiffer spine in some of our politicians would make for a perfectly reasonable solution to those folk who were intent on causing trouble- repatriot them. Tow the line and behave and you can stay for as long as you and your family wish and enjoy what we take for granted in our every day freedoms. Piss off the locals and you can jolly well go back to where you came from, we do not want or need that kind of behaviour here.

Pigs might fly though...

[TteFAboB]

This is an opportunity we cannot waste.

Skybird can't you see it?

We need more Mohammed, everywhere, it's our chance to end the subversion and face what most try to ignore.

We must get all Western nations boycotted, apparently all it takes is ONE newspaper to publish ONE cartoon!!! Our power is superior to Allah! We can change the life of millions of Arabs and Muslims with ONE cartoon! Cartoon by cartoon, the masked pillars of Islam will crumble and the truth will be revealed once and for all.

All it takes is one editor for each nation, any volunteers?

[AG124]

I'm getting sick of hearing about Muslim extremists demanding that we change our laws, culture, and now even the basis for our entire society. And I know this is making me sound like a racist or bigot, but when they are actually crowding our streets chanting for a jihad against all of us for a couple of cartoons or "freedom of speech, go to hell" (which was a slogan on several signs I noticed) I think we really do have reason to worry. They really shouldn't hope for a "clash of civilizations" (as some Muslim's were screaming for one enthusiastically tonight on the news) - if there was a total all-out war between them and the West, I doubt they would stand much chance in the long run. But what concernes me is that Western governments will band over backwards to accomodate them in any way possible - until we are banned from doing anything which they deem to be unholy (meanwhile in their own countries, they will do nothing to accomodate anything we ask from them and will continue to harbour terrorists). They apparently have no fear of our nations now - they were able to roam the streets of France destroying and attacking whatever and whoever they could find (with a low number of arrests and I believe, moderate prison sentences to the handful that were caught). I don't even think we should be allowing huge scores of them to flee to our countries - I believe in multiculturalism and the promotion of divergent cultures but the majority of muslims appear to only call for the subjugation of other cultures and refuse to accept any belief that does not conform perfectly to their own.

Maybe there are a few moderates asking for a more restrained response, but I don't see any. The huge crowds of screaming fanatics calling for the spilling of our blood, the destruction of our civilized societies, and the erasing of every democratic principle which we have worked hard to establish must be drowning them out. :roll:

I just have to get that off my chest - I am really worried about what the future holds for Western countries against such an unruly mob of crazed fanatics. I am not a racist though - this is about extremist religion and the overturning of liberal democracy to me. I hope such a rant does not violate SubSim's policies in any way - if so I will delete it and not post another.

[caspofungin]

Maybe there are a few moderates asking for a more restrained response, but I don't see any

I haven't responded at all -- now that's restrained.

[Happy Times]

AG124 You summed up the general feelings in the West very well, no one can be offended by what you wrote. Im one of those that believe that eventually there is going to be an open conflict.

[Happy Times]

Maybe there are a few moderates asking for a more restrained response, but I don't see any

I haven't responded at all -- now that's restrained. No arguments to justify the events?

[AG124]

I haven't responded at all -- now that's restrained.

I wasn't talking about members of this forum - I was talking about moderate islamists. I don't mean to attack or criticize anyone on this board, and would like to hear the other side of the argument is anyone has anything to offer. :yep: It would be an excellent exercise of Freedom of Speech.:know:

[Skybird]

Westerner must not be told that "Islam is peace". We have brain and senses to judge that by our own. ISLAM needs to be told that it should want peace. It also needs to be told that tolerance and peace is something different than Islam's superiority and dominance.

They want to live here - they have to accept our rules and cultures and live int he way we used to live in these our homecountries and our own culture -and they have to want to be one of us by heart and mind. Since Islam wants to overcome anything that is not itself, it cannot accept to do that: wanting to be like one of us, anting to be our culture, our set of values, our laws, habits, way of livings. Islam want's Islam's rules and laws and habits and settings. So for self-protective reasons we must demand that a Muslim emmigrant must want to be one of us by heart and mind and conviction - which inevatibly would mean that he must stop to be Muslim. He cannot be one of us and and wanting to turn our culture into Islam at the same time. And he helps to acchieve that result simply by his very own presence, no matter if he considers himself to be tolerant or not. We cannot afford to give muslim emigrants the same treatment as let's say Hindi or Buddhist emmigrants. These do not try to overcome their host. Islam does, and declares that as a holy duty.

I have seen slogans and cartoons in Iran on almost a daily basis in which the West, Western nations, Israel were victims of far more offending, disgusting, man-hating illustrations than these harmless Muhammad carricatures. These cartoons I saw were about bloodbaths, murder, mutilation of Jews, Western politicians, infidels; and that all the Western culture is evil, barabaric, primitive. They defended genocide, the Nazis, gas-chambers in these illustrations. But they want the Danes to excuse for these harmless carricatures. And harmless they were in comparison to Islam's own bloodthirsty propaganda.

And it was in Denmark where Danish people published these cartoons. who the hell do they think they are that Indonesians, Arabs, Iranians now tell the Danes what they shall do and shall not do anymore in their very own home country...???

Bigot, arrogant primitives.

Want to be treated as equals? Make yourself a civilization that is worth to be treated as equals. Want to be regarded as sensible and reasonable? Stop behaving like hysteric idiots, keep your temper under tighter control. Want to claim peace for your ideology? Stop investing in Islam's expansion. Want to appear as humanitarian? Free your women of slavery. Want to be en par with the West's history of ethical, philosophical, cultural developement? Make a crashcourse in cultural developement in the last 12 hundred years or so. I recognize you as equals when you deserve it. Not one century earlier.

:hulk: :arrgh!: :down:

[SUBMAN1]

Is this the true face of Islam?

I'm begining to wonder :hmm:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060202/060202_cartoon_protest_hmed_4p.rp420x400.jpg

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/afp/pbz05-0124102534.rp420x400.jpg

Any man who is not law enforcement and has a weapon, yet tries to mask his identity is a valid target for any self respecting citizen in my book at least!

-S

[SUBMAN1]

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quaranteen them, until they advance out of the middle ages.

Best idea I have heard in ages! Can you imagine the kind of press a western country would get if they started in with terrorist acts just because of a cartoon? It's unbeleivable to me that it is actually happening in Muslim countries!

-S

[SUBMAN1]

One more idea pops into my head - I don't think we have seen the last of this yet. These Muslims are so smart, they will start blowing up their own people and blowing up their own mosques soon! I'm beginning to stereotype all of them it would seem, but how am I not supposed to when they pull things like this?

-S

[caspofungin]

No arguments to justify the events?

Why even try? I don't agree w/ the mass demonstrations and bomb threats and all, nor do i agree w/ what i see as blatant antagonism w/ the justification of freedom of speech (the initial cartoons). I think both sides are wrong. people in arab countries shouldn't necessarily get upset about people in other countries exercising their freedoms. On the other hand, whatever you believe about mohamed the prophet or the man, portraying him with a bomb -- to me at least -- is analagous to a statement saying all muslims are bombers. Is that right? Or justified? Why aren't we arguing about that?

But if i try and distance myself from events, i'll be called a "moderate muslim" who's betraying his faith in effect -- by non-muslims, which is funny.

If i try and claim that the majority of muslims (i.e. 1 billion out of 2 billion worldwide -- that would be a hell of a demonstration) likely have more things to worry about than a cartoon in a danish paper, i'll be deluged w/ posts crying, "where is this silent majority?"

i could try and point out that hypocrisy exists in both western and arab editorials and political diatribes -- thats politics and media for you, wherever you live. but then we'll decend into an argument about the merits of democracy, and how islam is (or isn't) compatible with modern life.

so why don't i? people think what they want to -- that's their right. you believe what you want, leave me with my beliefs. me posting isn't going to change any preconceived notions that people have, right or wrong. so why should i bother? we (happy times, iceman, abraham, skybird, avon, etc.) have had these arguments on previous threads. why go over it again?

[caspofungin]

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quarantine them, until they advance out of the middle ages.

and then you'd have to take the bus to work -- or pay through the nose for a gallon of gas. it's a democracy -- people can vote w/ their feet -- literally.

[caspofungin]

These Muslims are so smart, they will start blowing up their own people and blowing up their own mosques soon!

Check out Iraq, man. it's been going on for long before these cartoons came out.

I'm beginning to stereotype all of them it would seem, but how am I not supposed to when they pull things like this?

that's really up to you, i guess.

[JSLTIGER]

I'm getting sick of hearing about Muslim extremists demanding that we change our laws, culture, and now even the basis for our entire society. And I know this is making me sound like a racist or bigot, but when they are actually crowding our streets chanting for a jihad against all of us for a couple of cartoons or "freedom of speech, go to hell" (which was a slogan on several signs I noticed) I think we really do have reason to worry. They really shouldn't hope for a "clash of civilizations" (as some Muslim's were screaming for one enthusiastically tonight on the news) - if there was a total all-out war between them and the West, I doubt they would stand much chance in the long run. But what concernes me is that Western governments will band over backwards to accomodate them in any way possible - until we are banned from doing anything which they deem to be unholy (meanwhile in their own countries, they will do nothing to accomodate anything we ask from them and will continue to harbour terrorists). They apparently have no fear of our nations now - they were able to roam the streets of France destroying and attacking whatever and whoever they could find (with a low number of arrests and I believe, moderate prison sentences to the handful that were caught). I don't even think we should be allowing huge scores of them to flee to our countries - I believe in multiculturalism and the promotion of divergent cultures but the majority of muslims appear to only call for the subjugation of other cultures and refuse to accept any belief that does not conform perfectly to their own.

Maybe there are a few moderates asking for a more restrained response, but I don't see any. The huge crowds of screaming fanatics calling for the spilling of our blood, the destruction of our civilized societies, and the erasing of every democratic principle which we have worked hard to establish must be drowning them out. :roll:

I just have to get that off my chest - I am really worried about what the future holds for Western countries against such an unruly mob of crazed fanatics. I am not a racist though - this is about extremist religion and the overturning of liberal democracy to me. I hope such a rant does not violate SubSim's policies in any way - if so I will delete it and not post another.

I COMPLETELY agree with what was posted here. Now here's a thought...why did no one pick up on these sentiments after events such as 9/11? As I recall, the airwaves were rife with images of Palestinians dancing in the streets upon hearing the news of the 9/11 attacks.

When the Palestinians elected a terrorist led government this past week the Western world threatened to pull aid. Why is this even a question? Aid from the ENTIRE world should be halted until Hamas renounces terrorism. It SHOULD have been halted a long time ago, when those 9/11 images were first broadcast. However, the Saudis and Pakistanis are already committing to a payment of at least $33 million to the Palestinian Authority to replace a $55 million payment that Israel delayed while it attempts to figure out how to negotiate peace with a government led by a party whose fundamental principal is Israel's DESTRUCTION!

Why do we continue to give aid to those nations which are obviously ungrateful? Why do OUR tax dollars go to fund terrorist states which are wearing a thin veil over their true nature? More importantly, why are we giving aid to the rest of the world when we can't even take care of OUR OWN PEOPLE?!

I am NOT an isolationist. I believe that we should maintain our involvement in world politics, and aim to solve disputes peacefully while still maintaining our superior military capabilities (such as stealth aircraft, supercarriers, nuclear propelled vessels, tanks, etc.). However, I do not believe that the American taxpayer has a fundamental duty to fund all of the other nations of the world. Funding our allies is one thing, funding our enemies is just ridiculous.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/nm/20060204/2006_02_03t215525_450x314_us_religion_cartoons_med ia.jpg?x=380&y=265&sig=mV9cyqp9u3R14eVa5uVtsw--
In front of the French Embassy in London.

Of all the hypocrisy. His freedom's what's allowing him to wave that sign. If he doesn't want it, he should get the hell out of the UK.

[sonar732]

Now, the US State Departmet has taken a anti-cartoon message...

from CNN...

In Washington, the U.S. State Department criticized the drawings, calling them "offensive to the beliefs of Muslims."

While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, U.S. State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.

"Inciting religious or ethnic hatred in this manner is not acceptable," Hironimus said. "We call for tolerance and respect for all communities and for their religious beliefs and practices."

[Ducimus]

Token message.

THey have to say SOMETHING. I think if they said nothing it would be taken as a sign of approval. But even if they say something (like they did), it wont change anyones minds reguarding the US.

[Crow]

chickenshi¨t Frogs are the bravest of em all again :damn:

Carrefour is a French supermarket chain , how low can you go in towelhead arselicking



http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4236/carref6qn.jpg

[Skybird]

On the other hand, whatever you believe about mohamed the prophet or the man, portraying him with a bomb -- to me at least -- is analagous to a statement saying all muslims are bombers. Is that right? Or justified? Why aren't we arguing about that?

For two reasons. By historical reality Muhammad was a man of violance. War, murder, massmurder, intimidation, conquering, raiding, imprisonment, slavery, torture, harems and supression of females - all this were tools that he made massive use of. muhammad already had participated in raids and had killed with his own hands while still beeing in service for his uncle, long before he appeared on the scene as a preacher. No reasonable man with some historical knowledge could argue that he was a man having a peaceful message to mankind on his mind. To say that would be like arguing that Hitler deserved the peace nobel prize because his party had the word "sozialistisch" in it's name.

And second, the position that now demands arguing about those cartoons is heavily biased and one-sdied. Why do we not argue about what I mentioned in this quote, and that is happening in the araba world dozens of times EACH DAY?

I have seen slogans and cartoons in Iran on almost a daily basis in which the West, Western nations, Israel were victims of far more offending, disgusting, man-hating illustrations than these harmless Muhammad carricatures. These cartoons I saw were about bloodbaths, murder, mutilation of Jews, Western politicians, infidels; and that all the Western culture is evil, barabaric, primitive. They defended genocide, the Nazis, gas-chambers in these illustrations. But they want the Danes to excuse for these harmless carricatures. And harmless they were in comparison to Islam's own bloodthirsty propaganda.

First Islam cleans it's own house, then we can start talking about the West's behavior. It does not compare. First we talk about making "funny cartoons" of massmurder, mutilation, and depticting infidels as animals and lower creatures that deserve to feel the whip, or even beeing nuked. And then we may talk about illustrations of Muhammad that concentrate on his - by historical matter of fact - violant mindset. He is the starting point of the biggest military conquest human history has ever seen. The picture of him with a turban in form of a bomb I found not to be too cartoonish at all. It simply was illustrating a truth about that man.

If some hundred million people for whatever a reason choose to identitfy themselves with such a figure, it is not my problem, but theirs. But it tells me something about these people's mindsets.

[TteFAboB]

I don't agree w/ the mass demonstrations and bomb threats and all, nor do i agree w/ what i see as blatant antagonism w/ the justification of freedom of speech (the initial cartoons). I think both sides are wrong. people in arab countries shouldn't necessarily get upset about people in other countries exercising their freedoms.

Yes they should, they can get as upset as they want, and the Danes can get upset about Muslims too. I find the way Muslims get "upset" to be quite amusing though, if this is "upset", what do they do when they're actually angry? Muslims souldn't necessarily love Denmark, that's their freedom, and vice-versa.

On the other hand, whatever you believe about mohamed the prophet or the man, portraying him with a bomb -- to me at least -- is analagous to a statement saying all muslims are bombers. Is that right? Or justified? Why aren't we arguing about that?

Is it right or justified to put a death sentence on Salman Rushdie for what he speaks? Is it right or justified to hate and threaten an entire nation because of a cartoon? Why aren't we arguing about how Palestinians are paid to sit at home all day doing nothing so that when there's a protest they join to avoid death by boredom? Aren't the protesters upset with the whole of Denmark, not the cartoon, but the whole package? Is that right or justified to the Danes who have more things to worry about than a cartoon in a danish paper?

If i try and claim that the majority of muslims (i.e. 1 billion out of 2 billion worldwide -- that would be a hell of a demonstration) likely have more things to worry about than a cartoon in a danish paper, i'll be deluged w/ posts crying, "where is this silent majority?"

i could try and point out that hypocrisy exists in both western and arab editorials and political diatribes -- thats politics and media for you, wherever you live. but then we'll decend into an argument about the merits of democracy, and how islam is (or isn't) compatible with modern life.

Nobody is complaining about quiet Muslims, I'm concerned with the protesters, with people who cover their faces and chant hate, death and destruction, people who want to destroy me, I could care less about Muslims who have better things to do in their lives than blast me.

You are completely right though, South Park would never exist in an Islamic nation, in the Western Democracies you can publish any cartoon you want and take responsability for it, if you published the same cartoon in an Arab editorial you'd get your head chopped off before the police could arrest you and get you a trial. In the West you can question anything, anytime, anywhere, you can raise your voice and say all the crap you want and draw and paint all you want, responding for it. Potentially any text or cartoon might offend someone, but one can only be offended if he allows himself to be offended, if he accepts the offense, that is, if he is weak of mind.

I saw a protestant man kick a statue of the Hail Mary in his church, and years later a crazy man threw rocks at another statue of the Hail Mary inside a catholic church, why didn't Catholics worldwide filled the streets with Vatican flags and holy grenades preaching the end of protestants, the destruction of all protestant people, the burning of all their nations.

Do you REALLY can't spot the difference?! Take off your burqa or find a more transparent one.

[Onkel Neal]

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quarantine them, until they advance out of the middle ages.

and then you'd have to take the bus to work -- or pay through the nose for a gallon of gas. it's a democracy -- people can vote w/ their feet -- literally.

Oh, don't worry, Muslim govts would still sell us oil. They can't live without our dollars either. Heavy crude is tough to drink ;)

I do wish we heard and saw more from Muslims such as you. Caspo :up:

[Dowly]

That must be a lucrative market.

Flag making in the middle-east. :hmm:

:rotfl:

[Dan D]

„Like a student that writes pussy on the blackboard to see how the woman teacher reacts”, comment on the publication of the cartoons by a chief-editor from another Danish newspaper.
The chief-editor of the local rag that published the cartoons in October 2005 first said, it was a test to what extent the freedom of opinion is already affected by fear of Muslims -- to apologise some weeks later.
Headline: “Pussy chief-editor makes use of his right to write pussy on the blackboard and apologises”.

To equal Islam and (all) its followers with terrorists by e.g. drawing Mohammed with a bomb on his head is with no doubt insulting. Agreed.

The moral outrage in the Muslim world is totally overblown. Agreed.

The cartoons are passed on in Islam Internet forums as Powerpoint presentations http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?s=ff31635b958db7460944ba773dd092b1&act=Attach&type=post&id=19470
:-j
If people are so serious about the religious ban of picturing Mohammed, why do they to spread them to as many people as possible? That is false-faced: those people pretend to be concerned Muslims but above all they are politically motivated and try to round up the stupor cattle.

And of course, the anti-Islam fraction is recruiting sympathisers as well.

[AG124]

Found something else interesting - not quite as severe as the Muslim protest but it does prove that there are other religous fundamentalist groups willing to make a fuss over nothing. :P They are doing it rather peacefully though.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/eo/20060204/en_tv_eo/18292

But of course, it is not unusual for Britney Spears to create controversy.

Here are several points of view on Muslim immigrants in Denmark, including both sides. :yep:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/450

BTW - I would like to state that I too think the cartoons are stupid and rather ignorant but I still believe that the authors have the right to publish them. As Voltaire (?) said, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That is the basis for our democracy - well, that and equality of all people. I would also like to state that I have read newspaper articles mocking my home province (NL) and stating Canada would better off without us. :down: Even though this was outrageous, no one called for the deaths of the authors and a peaceful protest resulted in an apology from the newspaper (which was sufficient). No fatwa (I forget how to spell it) required. And I certainly feel no hatred towards the rwest of the country, of which I am proud to be a part.

One more article on the subject which presents a similar point of view - although the issue in this case is the location of protests and not really the message. This is a little different - I agree with some llimits on protests in this case but because a funeral is not an appropriate place for a graphic protest, not because one group is attacking another (a cartoon would not be inappropriate here, for example).

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/kansas/news/13771047.htm?source=rss&channel=kansas_news

http://www.enidnews.com/opinion/local_story_034002317.html

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060203/NEWS01/602030391/1006/NEWS

[STEED]

I here on the UK news in two weeks the protesters will be in London :down:

[JSLTIGER]

Check out my earlier post (Pg. 3)...they're already there.

[caspofungin]

@Skybird

What you believe about Mohamed is just that -- your beliefs. We could argue about history and justification, but that's a whole other thread. I don't want to get into a religious argument, because all religious arguments are biased. Only an absolute atheist can be objective, otherwise you inject your own beliefs/prejudices/biases into whatever argument you try and make.

Back to the thread topic --

The picture of him with a turban in form of a bomb I found not to be too cartoonish at all. It simply was illustrating a truth about that man.

As stated above -- thats your "truth." My interpretation of the cartoon -- all who believe in Mohamed are violent bombers. So am I wrong to be offended?

The feeling of being insulted -- I'm not goin to blame muslims for feeling that way. If I insulted Christ (I wouldn't) and you were offended, I wouldn't be surprised. If you weren't offended, that's OK too. But I wouldn't insult Christ, and then turn around and tell you to chill out if you were offended.

The violent response -- that I can't condone. The calls for violence, the burning of embassies -- that's wrong, plain and simple in my eyes.

@TteFAboB
I agree with you, the response is overblown.

Do you REALLY can't spot the difference?! Take off your burqa or find a more transparent one.

I can spot the difference. Theres no reason to resort to insults, though. But then, I guess that's you exercising free speech.

@Dan D
I'm with you.

@Neal Stevens
Oh, don't worry, Muslim govts would still sell us oil. They can't live without our dollars either. Heavy crude is tough to drink

At the height of the oil crisis in 1973, when Kissinger tried to put pressure on King Faisal to drop the price of crude, King Faisal said that if the Saudi's had to go back to living in the desert and drinking goat's milk, they would. Some conspiracy theorists think that stance is the reason he was assassinated w/ the help of the CIA.

And re the dollars -- how much of the price of a barrel of crude do you think actually gets to the man on the street? The majority goes into the coffers of Western oil companies. Of what's left, the majority goes into the pockets of the royal families. I'm speaking on my own experience in Saudi -- if it's different elsewhere, I'd be surprised.

[SUBMAN1]

and then you'd have to take the bus to work -- or pay through the nose for a gallon of gas. it's a democracy -- people can vote w/ their feet -- literally.

Don't count on it. People here don't realize that what goes on in the Middle East effects our oil prices only to a degree. Its like the world thinks that we get all of our oil from overthere or soemthing. Wake up and smell the coffee because we don't even get 1/4 of our oil from there. Remove Shell Oil from the equation, and that number drops ot less than 10% I beleive.

No one really wants oil from the middle east unless its cheap - it is very hard to refine as compared to oil from any other part of the world.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

These Muslims are so smart, they will start blowing up their own people and blowing up their own mosques soon!

Check out Iraq, man. it's been going on for long before these cartoons came out.

I'm beginning to stereotype all of them it would seem, but how am I not supposed to when they pull things like this?

that's really up to you, i guess.

How can you not stereotype when it's practically worldwide the threat to kill Westerners for a cartoon? Quite frankly, I am sick of Muslims wanting to kill me for either being an infidel or for something someone else did. Its like saying that we should kill all Muslims because they want to kill all non Muslims. Since we are stereotyping, is that the route we should go?

The Mosque thing - shows you the intelligence we are dealing with - Hey! Lets blow up our people to make the Westerners feel bad! Good idea!

Freedom of speech thing - no, that is not permissable to say they are wrong for drawing a cartoon. Everything you put in print will offend someone or something, somewhere, somehow and to say that they are wrong because they ticked off Muslims is just blaten arrogance or being completely naive. That is a completely unacceptable stance to the issue.

-S

PS. I wonder if someone should tell these people that there are not 72 virgins waiting for them in heaven. Maybe we should also tell them that if there is a little angel on each shoulder writting good and bad things that you do each day, and that you will only get to heaven if the good list is longer than the bad list that that is the mark of a tyranical god, not one who is loving and caring and you shouldn't want to go to a heaven that will probably be a hell.

[Happy Times]

WARNING: HIGHLY OFFENSIVE MATERIAL http://www.retecool.com/comments.php?id=13539_0_1_0_C

[AG124]

Don't count on it. People here don't realize that what goes on in the Middle East effects our oil prices only to a degree. Its like the world thinks that we get all of our oil from overthere or soemthing. Wake up and smell the coffee because we don't even get 1/4 of our oil from there. Remove Shell Oil from the equation, and that number drops ot less than 10% I beleive.

No one really wants oil from the middle east unless its cheap - it is very hard to refine as compared to oil from any other part of the world.

Canada is on its way to becoming the largest source of oil in the world. It has already overtaken Iraq in the #2 position and it is believed by some that it will overtake Saudi Arabia for #1 within a decade as more reserves are discovered. :yep:

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn20664.htm

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/012705_china_canada.shtml

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/canada.html

http://www.rense.com/general37/petrol.htm

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0872964.html

Of course, most of the oil (95%) is in oil sands in Alberta and is dificult to recover. Recently though, in an interview, an American oil development expert said that the fields off Newfoundland are of top grade quality (he specifically mentioned that it was better than Middle East oil).

None of this is to say that the oil producing nations of the Middle East hold no power - they still do hold a great percentage of the world's oil reseves.

[Type XXIII]

OT:

Only an absolute atheist can be objective, otherwise you inject your own beliefs/prejudices/biases into whatever argument you try and make.


An absolute atheism would still be biased, as he would regard atheism above the folly of religious believes.

@Skybird
I have read your essays, your open letter, and I find your believes to be very well documented. I'm hereby giving up on argueing against you, because making myself able to do so would require extensive studies and a considerable amount of time that I simply do not have. I still disagree with you, though.

I would like to point out what I think is a circle arguement on your part. You say Islam doesn't change. From your point of view, as far as I have perceived it, Islam can't possibly change, because you have researched and reached the conclusion that Islam is a static entity. This is a welldocumented conclusion on your part, no doubt.

But, you also say that those muslims that do change (i.e. are more tolerant) are leaving Islam and aren't true muslims. What you actually is saying is that they, being dynamic, are not in agreement with your view of Islam as a static religion. You say Islam is static because change isn't Islamic.

Some other considerations.

Where is the silent majority? Not demonstrating, that's why they are silent. What should they shout? By some quirk of human nature, you can get more people to shout 'Death to the infidels!', than 'Be tolerant and reasonable!'. (OTOH, check the link in my first post.)

This is, nevertheless, getting out of control, not because of the silent majority but because of the violent minority. Attacking an embassy is the closest thing to attacking the country itself. This should provoke a response. This response must in no way be violent. Let me repeat that in no way be violent. A violent response would be a prelude to war, and we do not wish that. (At least I do not wish that.) On the other hand, I don't have a suggestion as to how to respond.

Consider, however, that the hippies attacking American embassies in various countries during the Vietnam war were not met with a violent response.

This got messy at times. As said, I have a complex view on matters and when I start writing my thoughts, I often argue for both sides. Please bear over with me.

[Type941]

Why are we even paying attention to these morons? Anyone with a brain knows what's satire, comic books, etc, and what's serious. I really can't believe this is all happening and AGAIN all we do is appologise to the muslim radials. We don't get offended to South Park and Jesus, why do they care about a bloody cartoon? Fekin eh! I think we all should boycott all arab countries, and never go there as tourists ever again. let's see how they do with their tourism. More, we should not buy their oil. This middle east is out of control.



Ought to read the book called "The Mosque of Notre Dame de Paris"

[Takeda Shingen]

Why are we even paying attention to these morons? Anyone with a brain knows what's satire, comic books, etc, and what's serious. I really can't believe this is all happening and AGAIN all we do is appologise to the muslim radials. We don't get offended to South Park and Jesus, why do they care about a bloody cartoon? Fekin eh! I think we all should boycott all arab countries, and never go there as tourists ever again. let's see how they do with their tourism. More, we should not buy their oil. This middle east is out of control.

Let us hope that Bush follows through on his State of the Union promise to aggressively persue alternatives to petrolium. Then, we can leave the Middle East be. With us (US, GB, Germany, the rest of Europe) out of the picture, they can go back to sending their suicide bombers after each other.

[STEED]

Check out my earlier post (Pg. 3)...they're already there.

True but in two weeks London will be a war zone :nope:

[Skybird]

Caspofungin,

I have plenty of material and personal expierence that enables me to give you facts from historical research and analysis wherever you find me guilty of having just my "subjective opinion". You just believe, and differently so. You may do so (as long as you do not want to change us). So who is "subjective" here? I can't see islam beeing able to proove it's claims. I find the Western tradition of analysis, research, reason and logic beeing able to proove that it cannot have been like Islam says. Islam is in the same situation like the Christian churches were - many centuries ago. That much it lacks behind. i prefer the western way. It has risks, that can only be countered by a strong sense of responsebility, but all in all it has prooven to work good - and far superior to any culture there ever was. Islam'S societies still live in medieval conditions (and according knowledge levels in most places). How can that ideolgy claim to be en par with the West...???

BTW, I AM that kind of atheist you describe. No deities and no superstitious supercreatures in my universe, please. Theism leads to mysticism and false idols, atheism leads to true mystic. I am in good company with that attitude. Jesus was like that. Buddha was like that. Muhammad was not. Don't get trapped by different words and symbolic language. Both focussed on immediate, direct experience. Simply that. "Free yourself from everything". Also, the first two men were men of peace and did not raise their hands against someone, even not agsainst nthose who did them harm. Muhammad's hands are dripping in blood. And this historical FACT is the bruning sting inside Islam's body, source of constant bad consciousness and the attempt to deny and rationalize it, it is the cause of the need to reject that part of it's identity, and telling lies about it. Muhammad was no Saint. By far not. Historical fact - not my subjective opinion.

You are not muhammad. how you can be offended if muhammad gets "offended" is mystery to me - you are not him, no matter how hard you try to immitate him. You tell a joke about, for example the German president. Or the pope. Or some Zen monk. So what??? Leaves me cold, and unimpressed. and certainly I have no "right" to feel offeended. But maybe I am just too coldblooded to understand your attitude.

[Grom]

This is, nevertheless, getting out of control, not because of the silent majority but because of the violent minority

More than 1/3 of all people mankind You call minority ?

[Skybird]

Why are we even paying attention to these morons? Anyone with a brain knows what's satire, comic books, etc, and what's serious. I really can't believe this is all happening and AGAIN all we do is appologise to the muslim radials. We don't get offended to South Park and Jesus, why do they care about a bloody cartoon? Fekin eh! I think we all should boycott all arab countries, and never go there as tourists ever again. let's see how they do with their tourism. More, we should not buy their oil. This middle east is out of control.

Let us hope that Bush follows through on his State of the Union promise to aggressively persue alternatives to petrolium. Then, we can leave the Middle East be. With us (US, GB, Germany, the rest of Europe) out of the picture, they can go back to sending their suicide bombers after each other.

In fact I was very surprised to learn about that detail in his speech. I think Europe needs to push America in this, and America needs to push Europe. There are diferrences in both player's positions with regard to the energy question, but together they could see this thing through. I support this part of Bush'S initiative. If it turns out to be a lasting initiative.

[TteFAboB]

...otherwise you inject your own...prejudices...into whatever argument you try and make.

Which is not necessarily bad, I don't trust a man without any prejudice, because for such men anything is possible, acceptable, there is no limit. I have my prejudices, I have a prejudice against the burqa, whoever wears it, voluntarily or not, must do so far away from me, in their traditional place of origin.

I can spot the difference. Theres no reason to resort to insults, though. But then, I guess that's you exercising free speech.

It's good to see you have your prejudices too, and you're right indeed, if you believe I insulted you send me a PM and if I understand I insulted you afterall I'll apologize. If I don't think I actually insulted you but you feel insulted anyway I'll see if I can explain myself better. If you don't accept my apologies or disagree, send a PM to the moderators or to Neal and they'll solve the problem the way they see fit. This type of interaction beats living in the desert drinking goat milk to me.

[Type XXIII]

This is, nevertheless, getting out of control, not because of the silent majority but because of the violent minority

More than 1/3 of all people mankind You call minority ?

I have no idea what you are referring to, but yes, it's a minority unless it's more than 50%.

I was talking about the violent minority within the muslim population, in case that was what needed clarification.

[Grom]

I have no idea what you are referring to, but yes, it's a minority unless it's more than 50%.

I was talking about the violent minority within the muslim population, in case that was what needed clarification.
They are all one whole family, and think very similar. They are 1/3 of all people been on this world. Another parts are1/3 christians and 1/3 believe in Budda. The point is that We cant treat them as violent minority of all muslim population, because tere is no minority. Even muslim gays will go with transparents KILL THOSE WHO INSULT MAHOMED, or whatever. We have XXI century and looks like new religion war is on its way.

[Type XXIII]

Please, do not come with such uninformed arguements, Grom.

Muslims are not one big happy family. There are considerable differences and opposing views within Islam, as it is within Christianity. Very often, these differences have sparked wars. Iran-Iraq war 1980-88, Iraq invading Kuwait 1990 (Gulf war) and Pakistan aidng the western coalition against Afghanistan are some recent examples.

[tycho102]

It seems like the Muslims have learned to use "victimization" against the States and Europe. It's been a successful tactic in our law system for about a decade, so they're certainly learning how to work it.

I'm just wondering if the Danish are prepared to fight for that freedom of speech? Like, with planes and bombs and soldiers. It's one thing to print the comics and declare a great victory for freedom, and it's something else entirely to wage actual war for said freedom...

[Type941]

It seems like the Muslims have learned to use "victimization" against the States and Europe. It's been a successful tactic in our law system for about a decade, so they're certainly learning how to work it.

I'm just wondering if the Danish are prepared to fight for that freedom of speech? Like, with planes and bombs and soldiers. It's one thing to print the comics and declare a great victory for freedom, and it's something else entirely to wage actual war for said freedom...

Denmark will do just fine.

[Happy Times]

It seems like the Muslims have learned to use "victimization" against the States and Europe. It's been a successful tactic in our law system for about a decade, so they're certainly learning how to work it.

I'm just wondering if the Danish are prepared to fight for that freedom of speech? Like, with planes and bombs and soldiers. It's one thing to print the comics and declare a great victory for freedom, and it's something else entirely to wage actual war for said freedom...

Denmark will do just fine. They are allready in Afganistan and Irak, and doing fine. But i can say when you see Finns packing to leave to fight abroad, things are pretty facked up and they are seriously going to kick ass.

[JSLTIGER]

And things just keep getting more exicting :roll: :

Furious Syrians set fire to the Danish and Norwegian embassies on Saturday as protests over cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad showed no signs of abating despite calls for calm...Chanting "God is Greatest," thousands of protesters stormed the Danish embassy, burned the Danish flag and replaced it with a flag reading "No God but Allah, Mohammad is His Prophet." They set fires which badly damaged the building before being put out...Demonstrators also set the Norwegian embassy ablaze. It was brought under control by firefighters. Police fired teargas to disperse protesters there and also used water hoses to hold back others from storming the French embassy. Scores of riot police were also deployed to protect the U.S. mission...The row has already had an economic impact with Arab countries boycotting Danish goods, but in a new twist on Saturday, Iran said it had formed a committee to review trade ties with countries that published cartoons deemed to insult the Prophet...A prominent British Muslim expressed outrage at placards carried at a rally outside the Danish embassy on Friday saying "Europe your 9/11 will come."

[Takeda Shingen]

...A prominent British Muslim expressed outrage at placards carried at a rally outside the Danish embassy on Friday saying "Europe your 9/11 will come."

At which point, the Islamists' sole protectors will have been turned against them. Honestly, only the disapproval of the US's military action on the part of the Europeans has prevented a largescale military campaign (I mean larger than Iraq). If a cataclysmic terrorist attack were to change the mind of the Euorpeans, there would be (1) nothing holding the United States in check, and (2) an entirely new group of willing coalition members for Bush to call upon.

[AG124]

At which point, the Islamists' sole protectors will have been turned against them. Honestly, only the disapproval of the US's military action on the part of the Europeans has prevented a largescale military campaign (I mean larger than Iraq). If a cataclysmic terrorist attack were to change the mind of the Euorpeans, there would be (1) nothing holding the United States in check, and (2) an entirely new group of willing coalition members for Bush to call upon.

Yes this is absolutely true - although there is also a growing segment of the US population which is not satisfied with the war. This appears to be because of a lack of visible progress (and because of the US Army's casualties) and not because of a distaste for war against Muslim extremists. A total war with a good bombing campaign (with less US casualties due to less ground fighting) should improve poll levels in the US. :yep: At least that's what I think.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yes this is absolutely true - although there is also a growing segment of the US population which is not satisfied with the war. This appears to be because of a lack of visible progress (and because of the US Army's casualties) and not because of a distaste for war against Muslim extremists. A total war with a good bombing campaign (with less US casualties due to less ground fighting) should improve poll levels in the US. :yep: At least that's what I think.

I would say that a majority of the Americans are not pleased with the progress of the war. However, if the Bush administration has established one thing, it is that they will do as they see fit without regard of popular opinion. That being said, another attack would instantly resurface the call for protracted war and give the administration cause to say 'see, I told you so' to their critics. If those two things happen, and Europe joins the US's campaign, I would rather be fodder for hungry tigers than an Islamic extreemist.

[AG124]

However, if the Bush administration has established one thing, it is that they will do as they see fit without regard of popular opinion.

For better or for worse, this is true too. I don't particularly like Bush, but I am not anti-American - I hope to see the war in Iraq end in favour of the West and believe that this outcome is still possible. :yep:

[Happy Times]

Yes this is absolutely true - although there is also a growing segment of the US population which is not satisfied with the war. This appears to be because of a lack of visible progress (and because of the US Army's casualties) and not because of a distaste for war against Muslim extremists. A total war with a good bombing campaign (with less US casualties due to less ground fighting) should improve poll levels in the US. :yep: At least that's what I think.

I would say that a majority of the Americans are not pleased with the progress of the war. However, if the Bush administration has established one thing, it is that they will do as they see fit without regard of popular opinion. That being said, another attack would instantly resurface the call for protracted war and give the administration cause to say 'see, I told you so' to their critics. If those two things happen, and Europe joins the US's campaign, I would rather be fodder for hungry tigers than an Islamic extreemist. Hate to say but i hope this happens, so that one winner emerges. And im personally ready to fight this war, and so should everybody fit for service.

[Onkel Neal]

http://www.slate.com/id/2135499/
Cartoon Debate
The case for mocking religion.

Islam makes very large claims for itself. In its art there is a prejudice against representing the human form at all. The prohibition on picturing the prophet—who was only another male mammal—is apparently absolute. So is the prohibition on pork or alcohol or, in some Muslim societies, music or dancing. Very well then, let a good Muslim abstain rigorously from all these. But if he claims the right to make me abstain as well, he offers the clearest possible proof of an aggressive intent. This current coexistence is only an interlude, he seems to say. For the moment, all I can do is claim to possess absolute truth and demand absolute immunity from criticism. But in the future, you will do what I say and you will do it on pain of death.

[Torplexed]

I'm sorry but people that easy to offend are just too easy to pass up. I say we turn it up a notch and see how far we can push them before all their heads explode.

Hey, maybe we can set up a posthumous Robert Mapplethorpe photography exhibit at the Guggenheim of mason jars half full of urine with a Quor'an peacefully soaking in each one. Then, we can send seruptitiously taken footage to al Jazeera and wait for the fireworks.

WooHoo! Who needs cow-tipping?!?! :D

[Skybird]

But if he claims the right to make me abstain as well, he offers the clearest possible proof of an aggressive intent. This current coexistence is only an interlude, he seems to say. For the moment, all I can do is claim to possess absolute truth and demand absolute immunity from criticism. But in the future, you will do what I say and you will do it on pain of death.

Haha, I am preaching this since weeks and months now...

[Wim Libaers]

WARNING: HIGHLY OFFENSIVE MATERIAL http://www.retecool.com/comments.php?id=13539_0_1_0_C

:rotfl: Fantastic!

You know, those original Danish cartoons ware way too restricted, and timid. These, on the other hand, include some absolutely outrageous ones.

Personal favourite: the one with the pack of cigarettes labeled "Mohammed causes serious harm to you and those around you"
So funny :lol:

[Letum]

http://www.sayagain.co.uk/b3tapix/images/muslimsurvey.jpg

[Marhkimov]

I applaud Letum's message. Excellent. :yep:



@ Radical extremist groups:

GROW UP! :stare:

[Torplexed]

Works for me too. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Iceman]

Few weeks back I was "Seemingly" put down because of a comment of "My" perception of Islam being likend to a Rabid Dog...hum....Only one way to put down a rabid dog too I'm afraid.

Now I know many of you seem to think I take the aggressive and particularily cold stance and it is Not my stance actually at all... I am just calling it like I see it and know where the fleshly world mind will take this.

The truly Ironic thing to me is the world being ruined by the God of Kaos and his goal to conquer and subdue yet lacking the ability to control from within...being the nature of evil itself...is kaos..hence a divided world.

It almost...almost makes me able to laugh outloud at the devil at his lack of coordination if it wasn't for the casulites I know he inflicts on the innocent...the poor...the fatherless...but alas his time is short and the days of all mens lives are numbered.

[CCIP]

The truly Ironic thing to me is the world being ruined by the God of Kaos and his goal to conquer and subdue yet lacking the ability to control from within...being the nature of evil itself...is kaos..hence a divided world.

It almost...almost makes me able to laugh outloud at the devil at his lack of coordination if it wasn't for the casulites I know he inflicts on the innocent...the poor...the fatherless...but alas his time is short and the days of all mens lives are numbered.

The truly ironic thing is that this sounds exactly like what the Muslims are telling us :shifty:

[Letum]

No! the TRUELY ironic thing is that if images of the prophet are banned how do they know the cartoons are images of the prophet? :-j

[Iceman]

No! the TRUELY ironic thing is that if images of the prophet are banned how do they know the cartoons are images of the prophet? :-j

Now Dats Ironic! LOL...

The truly Ironic thing to me is the world being ruined by the God of Kaos and his goal to conquer and subdue yet lacking the ability to control from within...being the nature of evil itself...is kaos..hence a divided world.

It almost...almost makes me able to laugh outloud at the devil at his lack of coordination if it wasn't for the casulites I know he inflicts on the innocent...the poor...the fatherless...but alas his time is short and the days of all mens lives are numbered.

The truly ironic thing is that this sounds exactly like what the Muslims are telling us :shifty:

Yea...not quite.

[Ducimus]

I just want to say that this world wide muslim protest, which has turned violent in many places, over a CARTOON, is not going to do wonders for their image. From everything ive seen in the media, there seems to be less and less that distinguishs them from the whackjobs we see on TV from Al Queda.

[JSLTIGER]

You know, I wonder if half of them even know what they are rioting about, or if they're just rioting for the hell of it at this point.

[McBeck]

Very few people know this:

A few weeks ago, before the **** hit the fan, a Imam living in denmark travelled the middleast telling everyone who would listen, that denmark was going to rewrite the Koran and that newspaper in question was goverment run.

Now, I dont get easely angry, but im ready to kick that guy out of my country for treason!!! What does he think hes doing spreading lies like that?

Thats what started all of this! The problem is that its VERY hard to change peoples opinion, once they have got one. :x

After our goverment for the last 5 months has stated, that they dont control the newspaper and that anybody who has a problem with what they print has to go to court, its FINALLY starting to sink in here in denmark.
There is infact a law that forbids blasphemy, but instead of listening to whats been said over adn over again and again, they choose to go on a rampage!! :nope:

[McBeck]

The irony is that its been very quite here in Denmark.

There has only been a few very moderate demostrations.

Why is that? Maybe its because the muslims here in denmark, know what we are all about...

[Marhkimov]

It was not right for the Danish newspaper company to publish such a derogatory cartoon...

But the behavior of the Muslim protestors is DISGUSTING. I'll call it as I see it: THEY ARE ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF MONKEY SAVAGES.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0602/gallery.muslim.protest/02.02.irag.gi.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0602/gallery.muslim.protest/02.08.gal.syria.ap.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0602/gallery.muslim.protest/02.07.gal.turkey.ap.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0602/gallery.muslim.protest/images/meast/gal.lebanon.gi.jpg

GROW UP!

[Abraham]

I'll call it as I see it: THEY ARE ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF MONKEY SAVAGES.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0602/gallery.muslim.protest/02.02.irag.gi.jpg
Maybe it was just a cold day. It's February after all...
:D

[McBeck]

Yeah, look....they are trying to put out the fire with Sprite :hmm:

[jumpy]

WARNING: HIGHLY OFFENSIVE MATERIAL http://www.retecool.com/comments.php?id=13539_0_1_0_C

:rotfl: Fantastic!

You know, those original Danish cartoons ware way too restricted, and timid. These, on the other hand, include some absolutely outrageous ones.

Personal favourite: the one with the pack of cigarettes labeled "Mohammed causes serious harm to you and those around you"
So funny :lol:

Bob Ross rocks :rock:
only a shame I can't read most of the blurbs with the pictures :roll:

[Winston]

Yeah, look....they are trying to put out the fire with Sprite :hmm:

This is acutely how they fight fires in the Middle East. You see a fireman on the right holding back the crowds whist they tackle the blaze.

[Skybird]

Iran now holds a national competition for cartoons on the holocaust, saying they want to test the West's freedom of speech.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/21/21985/1.html

Well, primitives that are offeneded when telling them they are worshipping a massmurder, predator, warmonger, torturer, rapist, surely find nothing bad in laughing about more of that as well.

That Islam is too primitive as that it could come up with values or anything that could be compared to western values they will not understand. Same did Muhammad: having studied christian and Jewish teachings by lecturing himself (of which he later constructed his own -removed by request of moderator, and replaced as follows:- "personal opinion on what theology should be like"), he thought that now he was an equal amongst equals, no, a superior, when debating with Jewish scribes. Of course he was not, not even close to it. His - removed by request of moderator and replaced with this:- "selfish and unscrupulous" ego (no, wait, it was a giant ego boosted beyond the size of alll mankind) was so offended by his inability, that he made himself forget his unacceptable handicap by removing those who reminded him of that. He drove two jewsih tribes away in war and massacred the third one completely, while all girls and women were handed over to rape and slavery. This is the strategy of describing Islam as worthy and superior - killing those who say different.

What a holy, noble man.

[Skybird]

Braking News http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4689358.stm

[Abraham]

Iran now holds a national competition for cartoons on the holocaust, saying they want to test the West's freedom of speech.
Perhaps this means that there will be absolute freedom of speech in Iran as well...
Or do they now expect us to burn their Embassies?
:D

[Letum]

http://www.b3tards.com/uploads/SHEEPEST.jpg

[Konovalov]

Iran now holds a national competition for cartoons on the holocaust, saying they want to test the West's freedom of speech.
Perhaps this means that there will be absolute freedom of speech in Iran as well...
Or do they now expect us to burn their Embassies?
:D

It is a cynical and disgusting ploy buy Iran's rulers and the out of his depth Iranian President, to distract it's own public masses from the ballooning nuclear crises that it itself has created and brought about.

[Skybird]

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/07/842447.html

Quote: "... ein Zwischenfall wie der Holocaust..." (... a (minor) incident like the Holocaust...)

Reminds me of an old episode of one of my favourite series, "Spenser": "Ich bin die Zahnfee, und wenn du nicht bald das Maul hälst, dann zaubere ich dir die Zähne weg!" :lol:

[Konovalov]

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/07/842447.html

Quote: "... ein Zwischenfall wie der Holocaust..." (... a (minor) incident like the Holocaust...)

Reminds me of an old episode of one of my favourite series, "Spenser": "Ich bin die Zahnfee, und wenn du nicht bald das Maul hälst, dann zaubere ich dir die Zähne weg!" :lol:

:damn: Something makes me think that I should have learn't German at school and not Japanese. :doh:

[Neptunus Rex]

It was reported this morning (or last night, I'm sure) in my local rag that Afghanis Security Forces fired on protestors when they attempted to force the main gate at the main US base in Afghanistan.

It was only a matter of time before that happened.

I'm also sure that by the end of this week, the USA will be blamed for the whole thing.

[Skybird]

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/07/842447.html

Quote: "... ein Zwischenfall wie der Holocaust..." (... a (minor) incident like the Holocaust...)

Reminds me of an old episode of one of my favourite series, "Spenser": "Ich bin die Zahnfee, und wenn du nicht bald das Maul hälst, dann zaubere ich dir die Zähne weg!" :lol:

:damn: Something makes me think that I should have learn't German at school and not Japanese. :doh:

It is not elegant a translation, but it means something like this:
"I am the tooth-fairy, and if you don't shut up I make your teeth dissappear by my magic!" :lol:

Thought about learning Japanese myself in my youth. My teacher back then, a japanese, told me to stop having foolish ideas and concentrate on the blade instead. :lol:

[Konovalov]

Thought about learning Japanese myself in my youth. My teacher back then, a japanese, told me to stop having foolish ideas and concentrate on the blade instead. :lol:

Please keep your Katana and Wakazashi to yourself mate. ;)

[Skybird]

Suicide is not to my taste, so only a Katana over here - and that is locked in the bank. Only my bow I have at home. Not the most practical tool of self-defense while riding bus or subway :lol:

[Sheppard]

Well im danish, and ....well...what can I say....
They just dont understand that the goverment CAN NOT tell a newspaper what to do :damn:

This is crucial to understanding the mindset of Mohammedians; to them Church AND State are one and the same, and indivisible; because Mohammed laid down HOW to govern in the Koran; which you cannot alter or change.

[AG124]

Bush has declared support for Denmark now. :yep: Things may indeed be escalating (and yes, troops fired on protesters in Afghanistan and have killed at least two).

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=26&story_id=27442&name=George+Bush+expresses+support+for+Denmark

[Type941]

Norways pulling the troops out of Afganistan now.

Man... What can I say. If those people on streets burning stuff had jobs, none of this would happen. It's amazing how bloody childish the world is.


It's a CARTOON! GET OVER IT.

[Abraham]

Norways pulling the troops out of Afganistan now...
Is this true? I can't believe Norway giving such a stupid signal.
I heard on the news tonight that Norwegian troops in Afghanistan had some problems with fierce demonstrations around their compound and asked for air support from the Dutch. We sent 2 F-16's which first made a very low pass over the demonstrators and, being informed that some hard core demonstraters were still closing in on the Norwegian compound, then demonstrated to the crowd that a 20 mm Gatling gun can take you faster to heaven then an F-16 itself (but that there would not be much left of you to enjoy any virgins).
The demonstrators - being fully convinced by the 20 mm strafing - then decided to spread in a hurry.

[Type XXIII]

I think we can establish that, on a deeper level, it's not about those cartoons. There exists a more or less general dislike of the West in Islamistic countries. These cartoons were simply a spark that has grown to a fire under nursing of some leaders, religious and political, who has brought it to the inflammable material of this dislike and people's general uncontentness in these areas.

Norway is making no sign of pulling out of Afghanistan. There were some rumors floating, after the attack on Nortwegian ISAF-forces, but Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg has said in a press conference that pulling out is not an option.

Making and printing those cartoons, was, in my opinion, wrong, but not illegal. Some of the reactions to it has been both wrong and illegal. Still, it is sad that this debate is run by extremists on both sides. From Norwegian media, I have gotten the impression that there does exist moderates in the countries that criticize and attack us. I believe this to be true.

To quote Norwegian politician Torbjørn Jagland. "Moderates of all countries, unite!"

[Skybird]

...Mohammedians ...

Sssssshht, don'T you say that! That word is considered to be offending.

[Skybird]

I think we can establish that, on a deeper level, it's not about those cartoons. There exists a more or less general dislike of the West in Islamistic countries. These cartoons were simply a spark that has grown to a fire under nursing of some leaders, religious and political, who has brought it to the inflammable material of this dislike and people's general uncontentness in these areas.

Norway is making no sign of pulling out of Afghanistan. There were some rumors floating, after the attack on Nortwegian ISAF-forces, but Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg has said in a press conference that pulling out is not an option.

Making and printing those cartoons, was, in my opinion, wrong, but not illegal. Some of the reactions to it has been both wrong and illegal. Still, it is sad that this debate is run by extremists on both sides. From Norwegian media, I have gotten the impression that there does exist moderates in the countries that criticize and attack us. I believe this to be true.

To quote Norwegian politician Torbjørn Jagland. "Moderates of all countries, unite!"

I bet most people in these places never have seen any of those cartoons. They are just told that a massive offneding of Islam has taken place, that the worth-to-be-hated West is behind it (again), they remember the many defeats they had suffered from this superior enemy culture that in their world view already should have been overcome by wonderful Islam, and like little boys not getting the candies that they want they start yelling, and stomping their feet on the ground. Kindergarten. :()1:

That the hate is stirred and channeled from interested circles is no excuse. What hysteric attitude of mind must an ideology teach to the people, so that they are so easy to be set into silly-mode and display such an ammount of irrational childish behavior?

[Rotary Crewman]

Norways pulling the troops out of Afganistan now.


Congrats Norwegian government if this is true. You have just given the mindless 'protesters' a boost.

[McBeck]

I'm also sure that by the end of this week, the USA will be blamed for the whole thing.
A islamic guy (cant remember where) stated that Denmark is just an easy target.

Why didnt the world blow up, when rumors suffaced that prison guards at guantanamo was flushing Korans down the toilet???

Maybe because the same people who are lashing out at Denmark wouldnt dare do the same to the US.

Denmark is just an easy outlet for rage and frustration these days.

Syria is still proclaming that the danish prime minister should apologize....geeeesss...are they thickheaded??!?!?! :damn:

[The Avon Lady]

Wake up and smell the coffee!

Cartoon Protesters Direct Anger at U.S. (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/010110.php).

[Rotary Crewman]

The U.S. base was targeted because the United States "is the leader of Europe and the leading infidel in the world,"

Christ on a bike, when will all this crap end :nope:

[TteFAboB]

Ironically, after all of this, I find the bomb-turban Mohammed cartoon gained a whole new meaning, whenever I look at it, I can't avoid but laugh, because now that cartoon is more real than ever.

[Skybird]

New round? Dealing on equal terms? Or just european queer logic of unlimited tolerance without perceiving qualitative differences anymore?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395367489&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Now the Danes are asking Teheran if they can reprint holocaust cartoons in the West? Do I get this correctly?

Well, lacking solidity of values in the West may result in such a zig-zagging behavior when beeing seriously challenged.

Shame.

The absurdity of "total tolerance" - the absence of any scales and values and personal identity, that is. Tolerance needs limits.

[Skybird]

Quote:"Apparently Muslim papers are allowed to do what Western papers are not: republish the Muhammad cartoons."

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/792

[Sixpack]

New round? Dealing on equal terms? Or just european queer logic of unlimited tolerance without perceiving qualitative differences anymore?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395367489&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Now the Danes are asking Teheran if they can reprint holocaust cartoons in the West? Do I get this correctly?

Well, lacking solidity of values in the West may result in such a zig-zagging behavior when beeing seriously challenged.

Shame.

The absurdity of "total tolerance" - the absence of any scales and values and personal identity, that is. Tolerance needs limits.

Skybird for German and then European Fuehrer ! Sieg Heil ! :rock:

[tycho102]

The clergy have whipped their Muslims followers up into this frenzy, now, and it seems like they've noticed it's backfiring. So they're trying to reverse course, or at least, all-back full.

People that weren't paying attention to the stealth jihad, now are. The people that were defending the stealth jihad (peace at any price) are having trouble. And the people who want "free speech" are having to weigh that freedom against actual combat to defend said freedom.

And it's completely possible that the Muslims stirred a lot of this up to get Iran's nuclear program off CNN's front page, only to cause another problem which may very well interact with the original problem (nukes).



On top of all this: If Iran prints Holocaust comics, and that sh*t gets reprinted in Europe (where everyone judges " pure evil" against Hitler, and not other barbarians such as the Great Khan, Tarif ibn Malluk, and Stalin), it's libel to cause even more problems.

[SUBMAN1]

Quote:"Apparently Muslim papers are allowed to do what Western papers are not: republish the Muhammad cartoons."

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/792

Skybird - good legwork on that one. Of course, this news surprises no one I assume.

-S

[Dan D]

Quote:"Apparently Muslim papers are allowed to do what Western papers are not: republish the Muhammad cartoons."

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/792

Skybird - good legwork on that one. Of course, this news surprises no one I assume.

-S



You are assuming correct but for the wrong reasons.
Let me explain:

Some people, let’s call them anti-Americanists, have a near-obsession with America. They always look at America and America only. Thus, they seem to have expert knowledge on every aspect of American politics but at the same time they know little or nothing about the politics of their homeland. That is really amazing. They criticise America but they can hardly tell you a anything about how things are handled at home, “somehow better”, of course. One might think, people should sweep in front of their own door first.

The pompous-self-importance of the article that was quoted made me burst out laughing loud.

“Apparently” Muslim papers are allowed what Western papers are not: republish the Mohammed Cartoons.

Well, I don’t know how things are handled in other Western countries, but in Germany there is a so-called “quote function”. You need that when you want to inform others. You can quote e.g. verbal slander as long as you don’t adopt it as your own statement.
Otherwise you would have absurd consequences which have been wonderfully described in Monty Python’s stoning of Mathias in “Life of Brian”:

Matthias is to be stoned to death because he used the forbidden word “Jehova.”
The official warns Matthias to say “Jehova” again.
MRS. A. stones the official for saying “Jehova”.
When Mrs. A defends herself saying, “but you said “Jehova”, the crowd stones Mrs A .

Official: “Stop! Stop, will you?! Stop that! Stop it! Now, look! No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Do you understand?! Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say 'Jehovah'.

Crowd: Ooooooh!...
[CROWD stones OFFICIAL]

WOMAN #1:
Good shot!
[clap clap clap]


Yea, good shot Brussels journal. LOL.
It seems, we are dealing with a new near-obsession here,
Weitermachen! :rock:

[Skybird]

Maybe better luck next time, Dan. Keep on trying. ;)

Meanwhile:
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/10/843601.html
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub9DDF988597D94E1689817E2BC0EC289A/Doc~EEBFEC5A7C2C845129A2FA1067F98AD3F~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html

And this is about a very courageous women:
http://www.zeit.de/2006/07/Kelek
http://www.faz.net/s/RubCF3AEB154CE64960822FA5429A182360/Doc~EB175F4CE99394F3CB066A881829CFFD9~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html
Quote: "Hirsi Ali nennt sich eine Dissidentin. Sie kennt die andere Seite. Sie wurde als strenggläubige Muslima erzogen und war davon überzeugt, daß es gerechtfertigt sei, Salman Rushdie zum Tode zu verurteilen. „Heute glaube ich das nicht mehr. Ich glaube, daß der Prophet im Unrecht war, als er sich und seine Ideen über kritisches Denken gestellt hat. Ich glaube, daß der Prophet Mohammed unrecht hatte, als er die Frauen den Männern unterordnete. Der Prophet war im Unrecht, als er bestimmte, daß Schwule getötet werden müssen. Der Prophet war im Unrecht, als er gesagt hat, daß Abtrünnige getötet werden müssen. Er war im Unrecht, als er sagte, daß Ehebrecher ausgepeitscht und gesteinigt werden müssen. Und daß man Dieben die Hand abschlagen muß. Er war im Unrecht, als er sagte, daß die, die für Allah sterben, mit dem Eintritt ins Paradies belohnt werden. Er war im Unrecht, als er behauptete, auf seinen Ideen könne man eine gute Gesellschaft aufbauen. Der Prophet hat gute Dinge gesagt und getan. Er hat zur Barmherzigkeit ermutigt. Aber ich möchte die Position verteidigen, daß er auch respektlos und gefühllos denen gegenüber war, die anderer Meinung waren als er.”

[Onkel Neal]

Ha, this made me laugh today :arrgh!:


The little darlings brandish placards with typical Religion of Peace slogans, such as: "Behead Those Who Insult Islam," "Europe, you will pay, extermination is on the way" and "Butcher those who mock Islam." They warn Europe of their own impending 9/11 with signs that say: "Europe: Your 9/11 will come" -- which is ironic, because they almost had me convinced the Jews were behind the 9/11 attack.



CALVIN AND HOBBES -- AND MUHAMMAD
By Ann Coulter
Wed Feb 8, 8:16 PM ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucac/20060209/cm_ucac/calvinandhobbesandmuhammad


As my regular readers know, I've long been skeptical of the "Religion of Peace" moniker for Muslims -- for at least 3,000 reasons right off the top of my head. I think the evidence is going my way this week.

The culture editor of a newspaper in Denmark suspected writers and cartoonists were engaging in self-censorship when it came to the Religion of Peace. It was subtle things, like a Danish comedian's statement, paraphrased by The New York Times, "that he had no problem urinating on the Bible but that he would not dare do the same to the Quran."

So, after verifying that his life insurance premiums were paid up, the editor expressly requested cartoons of Muhammad from every cartoonist with a Danish cartoon syndicate. Out of 40 cartoonists, only 10 accepted the invitation, most of them submitting utterly neutral drawings with no political content whatsoever.

But three cartoons made political points.

One showed Muhammad turning away suicide bombers from the gates of heaven, saying "Stop, stop -- we ran out of virgins!" -- which I believe was a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence. Another was a cartoon of Muhammad with horns, which I believe was a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence. The third showed Muhammad with a turban in the shape of a bomb, which I believe was an expression of post-industrial ennui in a secular -- oops, no, wait: It was more of a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence.

In order to express their displeasure with the idea that Muslims are violent, thousands of Muslims around the world engaged in rioting, arson, mob savagery, flag-burning, murder and mayhem, among other peaceful acts of nonviolence.

Muslims are the only people who make feminists seem laid-back.

The little darlings brandish placards with typical Religion of Peace slogans, such as: "Behead Those Who Insult Islam," "Europe, you will pay, extermination is on the way" and "Butcher those who mock Islam." They warn Europe of their own impending 9/11 with signs that say: "Europe: Your 9/11 will come" -- which is ironic, because they almost had me convinced the Jews were behind the 9/11 attack.

The rioting Muslims claim they are upset because Islam prohibits any depictions of Muhammad -- though the text is ambiguous on beheadings, suicide bombings and flying planes into skyscrapers.

The belief that Islam forbids portrayals of Muhammad is recently acquired. Back when Muslims created things, rather than blowing them up, they made paintings, frescoes, miniatures and prints of Muhammad.

But apparently the Quran is like the Constitution: It's a "living document," capable of sprouting all-new provisions at will. Muslims ought to start claiming the Quran also prohibits indoor plumbing, to explain their lack of it.

Other interpretations of the Quran forbid images of humans or animals, which makes even a child's coloring book blasphemous. That's why the Taliban blew up those priceless Buddhist statues, bless their innocent, peace-loving little hearts.

Largely unnoticed in this spectacle is the blinding fact that one nation is missing from the long list of Muslim countries (by which I mean France and England) with hundreds of crazy Muslims experiencing bipolar rage over some cartoons: Iraq. Hey -- maybe this democracy thing does work! The barbaric behavior of Europe's Muslims suggests that the European welfare state may not be attracting your top-notch Muslims.

Making the rash assumption for purposes of discussion that Islam is a religion and not a car-burning cult, even a real religion can't go bossing around other people like this.

Catholics aren't short on rules, but they couldn't care less if non-Catholics use birth control. Conservative Jews have no interest in forbidding other people from mixing meat and dairy. Protestants don't make a peep about other people eating food off one another's plates. (Just stay away from our plates -- that's disgusting.)

But Muslims think they can issue decrees about what images can appear in newspaper cartoons. Who do they think they are, liberals?

[Abraham]

Ha, this made me laugh today :arrgh!:

The little darlings brandish placards with typical Religion of Peace slogans, such as: "Behead Those Who Insult Islam," "Europe, you will pay, extermination is on the way" and "Butcher those who mock Islam." They warn Europe of their own impending 9/11 with signs that say: "Europe: Your 9/11 will come" -- which is ironic, because they almost had me convinced the Jews were behind the 9/11 attack.
I don't get the laugh or the irony, Neal.

We all know by now that the Jews were behind the Sept. 11 attack.
Arab investigating journalists found out that the Jews were behind the Beslan School Massacre.

I think we better pay close attention to this Arab warning about a 9/11 situation in Europe and keep a close watch on the Jews in Europe.
Who can tell these Arab demonstrators know more then we do..?
Perhaps the Arab intelligence penetrated the Mossad..?


:D

[Skybird]

From the Herald Tribune.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/09/news/danes.php
If I were the Danes, I would not only be embittered, but "stinksauer" with my European "allies". Nice allies, that.

[AG124]

Muslims in India have now joined the protest - apparently the cartoons are an act of terrorism and islam cannot rest until all of its vicious attackers have been punished. They've even got children urinating on flags in fron of international journalists. :roll:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060210/wl_sthasia_afp/europeislammediaindia_060210124500

[Skybird]

Nuts. Mad. Crazy. Plem-plem. Balla-balla. Ga-ga. Völlig hinüber. Absolut durchgeknallt. Total uff. Restlos walla-walla.

Ab in die Wüste, Sand schippen!

[STEED]

These Muslims are just a load of bloody hot heads that have nothing else better to do with their lives talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. :nope:

[Abraham]

Nuts. Mad. Crazy. Plem-plem. Balla-balla. Ga-ga. Völlig hinüber. Absolut durchgeknallt. Total uff. Restlos walla-walla.
Ab in die Wüste, Sand schippen!
Skybird is quite funny when he gets mad at Muslim extremists!
:rotfl:

[Skybird]

There will come a day when I start loving America fullheartly... VERY GOOD COMMENT by the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/09/AR2006020901434.html

(If they ever will love me in return is something different... :D :-j )

[Abraham]

There will come a day when I start loving America fullheartly... VERY GOOD COMMENT by the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/09/AR2006020901434.html

(If they ever will love me in return is something different... :D :-j )
1. This IS America: freedom of opinion. You'ld love it already...
2. I (again) fully agree with you, Skybird.
3. I read Charles Krauthammer's sharp comments on a regular basis in TIME.
4. They will love you in return; Americans are happy to receive friendship and often have a big hart (if that is the correct expression in English).
5. I'll ask Onkel Neal to publish the first line of your posting in the Subsim News section (if only to give me the chance to blackmail you with it in the future...)
:D

[The Avon Lady]

Crisis escalating. They've kidnapped Hagar (http://www.comics.com/editoons/payne/archive/payne-20060211.html)! :oops:

[August]

Crisis escalating. They've kidnapped Hagar (http://www.comics.com/editoons/payne/archive/payne-20060211.html)! :oops:

:rotfl:

[STEED]

Crisis escalating. They've kidnapped Hagar (http://www.comics.com/editoons/payne/archive/payne-20060211.html)! :oops:

That’s Style :rotfl:

[AG124]

Actually, in all seriousness, the crises may very well be escalating. :-?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184780,00.html

[Happy Times]

Happy Valentines Day! http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/2/11/121928.shtml?s=icp , http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503544946&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

[AG124]

Once again, they are trying to impose their values onto a group which disagrees with them (although at least it is not us in this case).

:roll:

[The Avon Lady]

Actually, in all seriousness, the crises may very well be escalating. :-?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184780,00.html
2 relevant entries at Michelle Malkin's site:

NEXT, THEY CAME FOR KFC (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004557.htm) (Poor Ronald! :oops: )

DANES PUT HEAT ON LYING IMAM (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004554.htm)

Daniel Pipes pipes up:

How the Cartoon Protests Harm Muslims (http://www.danielpipes.org/article/3386)

Which is just fine by me.

[Abraham]

Crisis escalating. They've kidnapped Hagar (http://www.comics.com/editoons/payne/archive/payne-20060211.html)! :oops:
Those people are not just oversensitive and overheated but also overchildish.
How far have you sunken if you kidnap a cartoon figure like Hagar and threaten it with death in order to put pressure on the Danish government...
:down:

[AG124]

But if they become isolated from us, and we just ignore them, isn't it possible they can just work secretly to develop the means to strike a blow against the west? They could develop nuclear weapons (and maybe even an effective carrier system) or sponsor another terrorist attack. Not all Islamic countries would engage in such a practice, but authoritarian regimes such as Iran are not very trustworthy to leave completely outside the sphere of international organizations as rogue states.

[Abraham]

But if they become isolated from us, and we just ignore them, isn't it possible they can just work secretly to develop the means to strike a blow against the west? They could develop nuclear weapons (and maybe even an effective carrier system) or sponsor another terrorist attack. Not all Islamic countries would engage in such a practice, but authoritarian regimes such as Iran are not very trustworthy to leave completely outside the sphere of international organizations as rogue states.
Isolated or not, they could do all those things, if they're as nuts as their own demonstraters...

[The Avon Lady]

But if they become isolated from us, and we just ignore them, isn't it possible they can just work secretly to develop the means to strike a blow against the west? They could develop nuclear weapons (and maybe even an effective carrier system) or sponsor another terrorist attack. Not all Islamic countries would engage in such a practice, but authoritarian regimes such as Iran are not very trustworthy to leave completely outside the sphere of international organizations as rogue states.
Isolated or not, they could do all those things, if they're as nuts as their own demonstraters...
.....and religious authorities and political leaders..........

[Abraham]

But if they become isolated from us, and we just ignore them, isn't it possible they can just work secretly to develop the means to strike a blow against the west? They could develop nuclear weapons (and maybe even an effective carrier system) or sponsor another terrorist attack. Not all Islamic countries would engage in such a practice, but authoritarian regimes such as Iran are not very trustworthy to leave completely outside the sphere of international organizations as rogue states.
Isolated or not, they could do all those things, if they're as nuts as their own demonstraters...
.....and religious authorities and political leaders..........
Unless they are checked early in the game by steadfasty diplomacy from the West backed up with a whole scala of measure, from diplomatic pressure, through samctions to military pressure...

[The Avon Lady]

Frankly, it's up to Europe:

What Will Europe Really Do? (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_14_06_VDH.html), By Victor Davis Hanson

A great read.

IMO Europe won't have the courage and integrity to defend itself until much later in the game, hopefully before it's too late.

[AG124]

Isolated or not, they could do all those things

That is very true. But they have an even greater chance of doing it if we completely leave them to their own devices.

[AG124]

Now my own country (Canada) is moving to restrict freedom of speech as much as they can in this case.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060214/ca_pr_on_me/prophet_drawings_cda_3

:nope:

[Happy Times]

Check this out! Interwiew with former terrorists :rock: http://www.shoebat.com/media/cn8_2006_01.wmv?PHPSESSID=d1a5c0cd9dabb1da6ec4a6dd 161d9674

[JSLTIGER]

Now my own country (Canada) is moving to restrict freedom of speech as much as they can in this case.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060214/ca_pr_on_me/prophet_drawings_cda_3

:nope:

That's what you get for electing the conservatives.

[AG124]

That's what you get for electing the conservatives.

Well I didn't vote for them. Someone else must have, though. :lol:

[TteFAboB]

The cartoons were published here in magazines, newspapers and some TV channels displayed them too, many cowered, but there wasn't a single protest or riot (including overseas targetting), why? Because the Muslims are not organized over here, they are too few and their Imman is incompetent, so it seems.

It's entirely different where the Muslims have an agenda, it's not about the random John Doe Muslim getting offended by the cartoons, it's about the Muslim leadership manouvering the John Doe Muslim masses, they have one thing in mind, cartoon or no cartoon, that's a tiny part of the story, and if there's no cartoon, they'll find another reason to keep moving, as was seen in Pakistan. Due to the lack of Danish, Scandinavian and even European targets, the protesters shouted their primary cliché instead: DEATH TO AMERICA! And burned American targets.

This time we saw their global level of organization, which just proves how dangerous Muslim authorities can be.

[Abraham]

Where is "Here"?

[TteFAboB]

Definitely not "here" at subsim, but there, where? everywhere?! The list of nations that hosted displays of the cartoon is much larger than the minimalist Europe-America combo that has been targetted in the Islamic world.

[Abraham]

@ TteFAboB:
Sorry, I mean: from (or about) which country are you speaking when you say "here"?

[TteFAboB]

When I say here I speak of Brazil. But I've seen them published in Argentina and Chile too. There's, roughly, at least a million Muslims "here". Where's the 300 Muslim protest like the one from Amsterdam?

[Neptunus Rex]

http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/printer_friendly.cgi?article=100


:rock: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Iceman]

Check this out! Interwiew with former terrorists :rock: http://www.shoebat.com/media/cn8_2006_01.wmv?PHPSESSID=d1a5c0cd9dabb1da6ec4a6dd 161d9674

Thk U....Wow guy in that video put it like Skybird says..The Beautified Islam or the Orthodox Islam....wow.

[Abraham]

Check this out! Interwiew with former terrorists :rock: http://www.shoebat.com/media/cn8_2006_01.wmv?PHPSESSID=d1a5c0cd9dabb1da6ec4a6dd 161d9674

Thk U....Wow guy in that video put it like Skybird says..The Beautified Islam or the Orthodox Islam....wow.
@ Happy Times:
This certainly is an impressive interview...
:up:
Can you give any more info about the source? What is CN8 for a kind of broadcasting organisation? Are they trustworthy?

[Skybird]

An indian ministre (!) called for the murder of the authoir of the cartoons: 11 million dollars bounty. The association of Pakistani goldsmith placed a bounty of 1 million dollar for the murdering of the author.
Why only twelve million? Allah's sympathy is cheap to buy, it seems. Praise to him. Not everyone would be able to afford a more expensive religion.
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/18/848455.html

Christian children and a priest beeing slaughtered in Nigeria. One man burned alive while being stuck inside a tire. For the fame of Allah, of course. May peace be with him, and the rest of the blabla-blessings as well.
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/19/848473.html

The West is in need of more tolerance, in order to still respect this wonderful religion, it seems.

[The Avon Lady]

The West is in need of more tolerance, in order to still respect this wonderful religion, it seems.
As Thomas Mann said:

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."

[Skybird]

Good quote. Mind if I take it as a sig? I must admit, I do not like to read Thomas Mann.

Im still waiting for western Muslims to hold remembrance ceremonies for those slaughtered children, or Muslims protesting against the violence with as much enthusiasm, endurance and energy as they use to display when protesting against a five months-old cartoon.

Maybe I expect too much. :down:

[The Avon Lady]

Good quote. Mind if I take it as a sig?
It's in the public domain. No need to ask. :lol:
Im still waiting for western Muslims to hold remembrance ceremonies for those slaughtered children, or Muslims protesting against the violence with as much enthusiasm, endurance and energy as they use to display when protesting against a five months-old cartoon.
Another cartoon (http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=artikelen.details&achtergrond_id=8350&CFID=2735238&CFTOKEN=57221010), animated and brilliantly so. The word "gevoelig" is Dutch for "sensitive."

[JClark]

Guys, I just finished a book called "The World is Flat", by Thomas Friedman. Even though Friedman stands on the other side of the political aisle from me, he puts forth some very challenging ideas, especially when it comes to the Islamic terrorism issue.

Item 1) European (as opposed to non-Euros) population levels are stable in some countries, declining in others, while Islamic levels are increasing. Result is growing power blocs that politicians will bow to to get votes.

2) The rise in terrorism is directly related to the wide divide between the technology of the US and Europe vs. the level of tech in the Arab nations. There is little if any real middle class, and of that there is no tech. Computer tech, and internet tech is held by the governments for the most part. The common Islamic man (because the woman holds no place in Islam, except as cattle) felt left behind, and disenfranchised by the West. Once the wall came down in Berlin, and the US was the lone superpower left, the focus fell on the US as the purveyor of this huge disparity. Every sin and crime imaginable was laid upon the US by the mullahs, and everywhere madrassas led by Wahibbist sprung up, spreading the Islamic word of Hate.

3) Real pockin' bad on the moderate Islamics, for waiting so long to speak out. Instead of saying this,
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ijaz18feb18,0,6492979.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
the day after 9/11, they pretty much made one line, we don't support this comments. No one took a public stand against this terrorism, and this only emboldened them even more.

What are we to do? Damnifino...it might be too late to resolve this issue with little loss of life. But I will tell you this. If it's down to me and my family or trying to keep a tango from killing them, I'm going to kill hell out of that tango, and any of his buddies that have similiar thoughts. The REAL question for Europeans, is at what point do you decide that you MUST save your way of life. Do you wish to see your wives, daughters, sisters, and mothers held as property? To never be allowed to vote, drive a car, or show their face in public? Do you want to live your lives under Islamic law, with none, repeat, NONE of your cherished freedoms?

Hard times call for hard men.

Byron

[Takeda Shingen]

2) The rise in terrorism is directly related to the wide divide between the technology of the US and Europe vs. the level of tech in the Arab nations. There is little if any real middle class, and of that there is no tech. Computer tech, and internet tech is held by the governments for the most part. The common Islamic man (because the woman holds no place in Islam, except as chattel) felt left behind, and disenfranchised by the West. Once the wall came down in Berlin, and the US was the lone superpower left, the focus fell on the US as the purveyor of this huge disparity. Every sin and crime imaginable was laid upon the US by the mullahs, and everywhere madrassas led by Wahibbist sprung up, spreading the Islamic word of Hate.
Byron

This is easily refuted through historical analysis, where we see that the Islamic states were far more technologically and socially advanced that their European counterparts, and yet violence against non-muslims continued. Furthermore, even though the Ottoman Empire was the 'sick man' of Europe at the time mentioned in The Avon Lady's post, it was hardly a backward nation.

And what of the European-based muslims who riot and commit acts of terrorism? Having attained relative financial prosperity and technologic parity, one would theorize that they would moderate in their views. The last twelve months prove this to be erronious, and that these individuals retain their militant and extreemist views and motives, relegating the cause of this rift to the realm of the cultural, not economic.

[Skybird]

Tak,

the balance of technological superiority of Islam shifted during the medieval, more and more in favour of the West. the ottoman empire marked an era where it was no longer en par with Europe, neither in terms of sciences, nor in terms of weapons technology. It were the Jews that fled the reformation in Europe that brought that knowledge with them and made it accessibale to Islamic factions. Until then, the military strength of the Ottomans was coming from very skilled elite units, the "Janitscharen" - christian children that were rasied in Muslim faith and then sent to battle to fight against their own christian ancestors. They were educated in great fanatism and great loyalty for their Pasha. Also, the Ottomans themselves were formed up by the previous elite fighters from the Turkmen tribes, who served as soldier slaves in Muslim armies and after some years of service were allowed to gain freedom and social status. At this time, the Turkmen, today'S Turks, were a military elite with an elite training and highly mobile fighting strategy and good leadership qualities, they later formed the Ottoman empire and later today'S Turkey, originally the Turks are coming from the regions on northern Afghnaistan and Iran. But back then, after some they were not able to counter the growing superiority in weapons technology of the Christian Europeans. also, the growing decadence of the Pashas and corruption in their administrative structures, that were unwilling to copy the superior western models, made sure that the Ottoman empire stagnated more and more (reminds a bit of the late Byzantium).

Were you get it that their social structures were superior to that of the West, is unknown to me. Even back then travellers identified the supression of women to be one of the reasons for the lacking productivity of Islamic societies, because they only caused costs, but were not allowed to contribute anything constructive to the community, economy, their potential was and is wasted that way.

In certain fields of science and technolgy and medicine, Islamic world was better educated in the in the medieval, however, it stagnated and did not keep up that advantage, while Europe developed and finally took over and left Islam behind in these fields. also, certain sciences never were allowed in Islam (all sciences and philosophies that had the potential to create alternatives to Qran as only source of explanation).

The thesis that a spreading of hitech and medias would do the trick for moderate Islam keeping fundamentalist Islam in check I find too optimistic. And since I do not differ between moderate and fundamentalist Islam that strictly, I also find the argument somewhat contradictory. It is not about reformation of Islam, but overcoming it and starting an evolution that took europe almost onethousand years. I dozbt that these timespan can be easily bypassed, or cut short, by giving them access to these technologies. more likely it is that they turn them against us (like Islam always turns new ressources against what is Non-Islam).

[Skybird]

This turkish movie currently stirs the pot in Germany:

http://www.valleyofthewolvesiraq.com/web/indexb.htm

It is a most schematic, anti-western orgy of brutality that is depicting a most polarized image of the evil Westerners suppressing and sadistically abusing the poor Muslim victims, and how the Muslim hero, kind of a Turkish Rambo, raises to take bloody revenge. It is basing on true events, the arrest of a dozen Turkish militaries in 2003 or 2004 by American forces.

Such brutal and stuopid propaganda is nothing new, hollywood has produced immense ammounts of such crap itself, with differnt poltical orientation, of course.

Abu Graib produces some immense blowback here.

the film is incredibly popular amonst German Turks. Many especially young ones say it is an adequate description of reality. Also nothing new, many westerners also thought that Rambo 2 and 3 were realistic, too. but at least our governments did not voice such stupidities.

but that a muslim government officially hails such a crap movie and defends it against german protests that want to ban it from german cinemas - that has some meaning in it. It is the oh so European, oh so moderate, West-compatible government of - Turkey.

A heartbraking story of humanity, the offical website says. So be it. :down:

[Takeda Shingen]

I am refering to medieval Europe with my first sentence. I am seprately refering to post-feudal history in my statement about the Ottomans. I should have made that more clear.

Turkish rulers would frequently allow followers of different religions (re: Christianity, Judaism) to practice their faiths while retaining citizenship (albeit minimal). This does drastically differ from European practices at the time, which were much more aggressive. Also, women were little more than property in Europe as well, but where Europe has moderated through history, the Middle East has not.

Note that I said they were more advanced, not advanced.

[Torplexed]

Found this link. It's a compendium of Mohammed images throughout history. (Including Islamic ones.) They may not be satirical cartoons but I think it goes further to show what a hyped-up fraud all this recent muslim outrage has been. Unless there is some sort of statue of limitations on drawing Mohammed. :roll:

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

[Abraham]

... Im still waiting for western Muslims to hold remembrance ceremonies for those slaughtered children, or Muslims protesting against the violence with as much enthusiasm, endurance and energy as they use to display when protesting against a five months-old cartoon.

Maybe I expect too much. :down:
I'll join you waiting (in vain).
Let's share our patience, we'll need it...
:D

[Takeda Shingen]

Oh great. Thanks, Torplexed, now I've got the cartoons on my machine, which means that I am now fair game for the terrorists. Want to start my car up for me tomorrow?

[TteFAboB]

Mohammed is HOT! (http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_face_hidden/siyer-i-nebi-beheading.jpg)

At least they seem to be using a sharp sword, to be able to chop the head off before the body falls to the ground. If only modern beheaders who behead infidels in the name of Islam followed this drawing as a guide-line, there's only one problem though, which one of them will set himself on fire?

[Torplexed]

Oh great. Thanks, Torplexed, now I've got the cartoons on my machine, which means that I am now fair game for the terrorists. Want to start my car up for me tomorrow?

If it doesn't blow up can I keep it? :D It's a long trip back to Seattle.

[Takeda Shingen]

If it doesn't blow up can I keep it? :D It's a long trip back to Seattle.

That depends on what you're driving.

[Torplexed]

That depends on what you're driving.

Ahh...you'll love my car Tak. It's a classic in a beautiful shade of burgundy...ish red. Low mileage by any astronomical terms. It also has the much sought after feature of having been pre-bombed by terrorists. (probably because of a vaguely inflammatory statement on the door) Only wish I knew what the blue book value was.

http://zioxville.homestead.com/files/WonderCar.jpg

[STEED]

That depends on what you're driving.

Ahh...you'll love my car Tak. It's a classic in a beautiful shade of burgundy...ish red. Low mileage by any astronomical terms. It also has the much sought after feature of having been pre-bombed by terrorists. (probably because of a vaguely inflammatory statement on the door) Only wish I knew what the blue book value was.

http://zioxville.homestead.com/files/WonderCar.jpg


Nice :rotfl:

[AG124]

http://zioxville.homestead.com/files/WonderCar.jpg

What model and year of car is that? Is it in good enough condition for restoration? The body looks alright anyway.

(I'm assuming that's actually yours, and not a picture you found on the internet).

[Takeda Shingen]

Sweet. Got A/C in that thing?

[STEED]

Saudi paper 'shut' in cartoon row

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4734500.stm

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4045019.stm

Some old men with long beards will have red faces reading this.

[Iceman]

Hard times call for hard men.

Byron

Icemen even. :up:

[Abraham]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4045019.stm

Some old men with long beards will have red faces reading this.
Well, for any Muslim who wants to test the limits of freedom of expression, this is it...!
At the same time an elegant way to teach a harsh lesson to people who have an open mind and want to express that.
The lesson about human freedoms from Saudi Arabia is:

"Stick to orthodox Muslim dogma's at home and abroad, oh World!"

[STEED]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4045019.stm

Some old men with long beards will have red faces reading this.

Well said they must be very angry, nuts to them.

[Hitman]

They may not be satirical cartoons but I think it goes further to show what a hyped-up fraud all this recent muslim outrage has been

Yup this fuss is all hyperexaggerated, but anyway I think t's fair to point out that what seems to have angered more many muslims is not the fact of picturing Muhammad (Which they also do not like at all), but more the fact of doing it satirically and with a bomb in the head.

Those who considered themselves moderate muslims were angry about the satyrical depiction, and the generalization in the cartoon ("All who follow Muhammad are terrorists"), while radicals would anyway be offended, no matter the contents of the picture.

The cartoons where not a fortunate idea, but in my opinion the author created them legitimately. Unfortunate and offensive, but legitimate in our world. :hmm:

[Skybird]

It tells something about both their mentality and their ideology if it is so easy to fuse them and make them blow off, no matter if they had been shown the origiunal or faked cartoons.

[STEED]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4736854.stm

[TteFAboB]

Those who considered themselves moderate muslims were angry about the satyrical depiction, and the generalization in the cartoon ("All who follow Muhammad are terrorists"), while radicals would anyway be offended, no matter the contents of the picture.

Imagine how offended Moderates would be if they knew how to read.

[Skybird]

I nicely balanced strategy. Hold them at their nose and kick their butts while whispering friendly words into their ears when kicking.


Anyway, they are a bit late, aren't they. Did it take Islam so long to differ right from wrong?

[CCIP]

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9631/moha7vv.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9631/moha7vv.jpg

How dare you post such nonsense about Jasper. If I had some stones, your embassy would have some broken windows.

[Happy Times]

LMAO :rotfl: http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1140609313/YAAFM_12_Muslims

[AG124]

I don't know if anyone had read this article. But I definitely think that you should. It's nothing earth shattering though, but it is definitely worth the time.

http://www.bangladesh-web.com/news/view.php?hidDate=2006-02-26&hidType=OPT&hidRecord=0000000000000000090703

[Gizzmoe]

LMAO :rotfl: http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1140609313/YAAFM_12_Muslims

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

Next cartoon to be attacked: Tom & Jerry (http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1049#).

Yes, Russia, help them enrich their uranium.

[The Avon Lady]

:dead: Everyone! Bolt the doors and close the shutters! (http://www.muhammaddance.com/) :dead:

EDIT: More traditional rendition (http://www.mohammeddance.com/).

[STEED]

Next cartoon to be attacked: Tom & Jerry (http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1049#).

Yes, Russia, help them enrich their uranium.

What was all that about? :doh:

[STEED]

:dead: Everyone! Bolt the doors and close the shutters! (http://www.muhammaddance.com/) :dead:

EDIT: More traditional rendition (http://www.mohammeddance.com/).

Both of them :rotfl: :rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

Good luck, Europe! (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010423.php) :nope:

[STEED]

Good luck, Europe! (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010423.php) :nope:

Well the EU would say that they are up to no good and out to take control of Europe so how can they control of us if the Muslims set Europe on fire.

[The Avon Lady]

Dhimmi Desmond Disses Democracy (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010430.php).

Brought to you by the United Nations.

[STEED]

The UN are just as bad here's a little tast -


The Global Biodiversity Assessment calls for human population to be reduced from 5.6 billion to 1 to 2 billion (Reference GBA Section 9.2.3.2)
Source United Nations Documents

[Skybird]

Trackback URL for this post:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/trackback/869

Anti-Jihad Manifesto Misses the Point

From the desk of Paul Belien on Wed, 2006-03-01 12:02

Today twelve international authors, most of them (former) Muslims, such as Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but also a couple of “French philosophers,” published a manifesto in the French satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo. An English version ( http://www.jp.dk/indland/artikel:aid=3585740/ ) of the manifesto “Together facing the new totalitarianism” was posted yesterday evening on the website of the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

The manifesto states that

“After having overcome fascism, Nazism, and Stalinism, the world now faces a new totalitarian global threat: Islamism. We, writers, journalists, intellectuals, call for resistance to religious totalitarianism and for the promotion of freedom, equal opportunity and secular values for all.

The recent events, which occurred after the publication of drawings of Muhammed in European newspapers, have revealed the necessity of the struggle for these universal values. This struggle will not be won by arms, but in the ideological field. It is not a clash of civilisations nor an antagonism of West and East that we are witnessing, but a global struggle that confronts democrats and theocrats.”
The above paragraphs clearly display the manifesto’s defects. While Islamism can be considered the perversion of religion, the three scourges of the 20th century – Fascism, Nazism (National-Socialism) and Stalinism – were secular ideologies. Neither Adolf Hitler nor Joseph Stalin were theocrats. It takes “French intellectuals” to use mankind’s experience with National-Socialism and Stalinism as motivation for a rallying cry to oppose “religious totalitarianism” and a call for “secular values,” which they hold to be “universal values.”

There is no doubt that Islamism is a threat to freedom and human dignity. However, as we have warned before, some people – undoubtedly brave, but nevertheless mistaken – are prepared to destroy certain basic freedoms, such as freedom of education, in their fight against Islam and religion in general. The question has already been put here:

Is Islam dangerous because it is a religion? Do Muslim values differ from European values because the latter are rooted in Christianity or because they are secular? These questions are at the heart of the debate in Europe today.

In our opinion, man is a religious being. Secularism destroyed the Christian roots of Europe and, in doing so, created the religious vacuum that is now being filled by Islam. The manifesto warns against

“battalions destined to impose a liberticidal and unegalitarian world. […] We must assure universal rights to oppressed or discriminated people.”

History in the past century, however, has clearly indicated that those fighting for an “egalitarian” world were the most “liberticidal” of all. Freedom is the right to live “unegalitarianly.” This is why The Brussels Journal defends the right of individuals – though not of the state – to “discriminate” (which, by the way, contrary to what the manifesto implies, is not the same as “oppress”). Indeed, it is no coincidence that the manifesto avoids referring to “Socialism” (and even “Communism”) among the scourges of the past century and prefers to speak of “Nazism” and Stalinism” instead. Half the manifesto’s signatories are probably Socialists, which explains why the manifesto obfuscates the secular, Socialist roots of these scourges.

While in America a cultural war is going on between “blue” (liberal) and “red” (conservative), the cultural war in Europe is a three-way war between the European equivalent of the American “blue” (socialist), the European equivalent of the American “red” (conservative, though Europeans often use the term “liberal”) and Muslims. I prefer to refer to the first group as “secularist” (although I realise this is a generalization and many Christians belong to these “secularists,” including – unfortunately – most of our bishops and priests) and to the second group as “Christian” (although many agnostics belong to it). The reason why I make this distinction is because the second group is prepared to acknowledge the importance of the cultural traditions of the West, rooted in the Judeo-Christian values without which classical-liberalism could never have evolved.

I cannot state this any better than Dr. Jos Verhulst, in his contribution to our Dutch-language section yesterday:

The great public secret behind the whole issue of the Danish cartoons is the following. Nowhere does the core text of the New Testament argue for censorship. There is not a single instance where the New Testament states that a non-Christian should be persecuted for his convictions or statements. With regard to those with whom it is not possible for Christians to co-exist, Christ simply preached secession: “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.” (Matthew, 10:14). On the other hand, Christ did not allow himself to be censored: He said what He had to say, He “insulted” and “offended” the pharisees, and for this He was persecuted and finally murdered. The core text of Islam is different. It explicitly calls for the persecution and submission through violence of all who hold other beliefs.

It is true that throughout history there have been Christians and Christian churches who, in contradiction with the Christian core text, have engaged in persecution and censorship, and that there have been Muslims who have pleaded for freedom of expression and thought. Even today there are instances where the Vatican calls for censorship (see the Osservatore Romano of 5 February) while Dyab Abu Jahjah calls for freedom. But the dynamics of the core texts that have shaped both civilisations through the centuries, are diametrically opposed. Freedom lovers had the support of the one core text but not of the other.

In the West the general development, against all the authorities, through all the turmoil and in spite of all the regressions, has continued to be towards increasing individualism, freedom of thought, development of science, abolition of slavery and the blossoming of the ideals of equal rights, democracy and radically free speech. The world of Islam, on the contrary, developed into a “close society” where the individual submits to the community.

And now he stands at the dawn of the 21st century: the maligned individual, unsteady on his own feet after executing the inner breach with every form of imposed authority, uncertain, blinking in the brightness of the only god he is willing to recognise – Truth itself, stretching out before him unfathomably deep – full of doubt but aware that he, called to non-submission, must seek the road to the transcendent, carrying as his only property, his most valuable heirloom from his turbulent past, that one gold piece that means the utmost to him, his precious ideal of complete freedom of thought, of speech and of scientific inquiry. That is the unique advance that he received to help him in his long and difficult quest.

Meanwhile he is being beleaguered and threatened on all sides; from out of the darkness voices call him to submit and retreat; they shout that the gold in his hands is worthless, while the brightness ahead of him still makes it almost impossible for him te see what lies in store. In short: what this contemporary individual needs most of all is courage, great courage. And the will to be free and to see, which is tantamount to the will to live.

This, in our humble opinion, is a far more appropriate “manifesto” than the one published in Charlie Hebdo today. The battle that is being waged today is a battle between those who defend the right of individuals against the right of collectivities.

The Islamists and the secularists (including the priests and bishops among them) have more in common than the Islamists and the Christians (including the agnostics among them), because the latter acknowledge that at the heart of Christianity is the individual with his individual responsibility before God. Without Christianity, individual responsibility would not have become the centre of European civilization. It was the French Revolution that jeopardized this tradition and that became the root of collectivism, with its socialist, fascist, national-socialist and communist excesses. From this perspective even Jihadism is more a child of secularism than of religion.

[STEED]

Skybird do you write books?

That was Deep reading :hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

Skybird do you write books?

That was Deep reading :hmm:
I thought that was one of the simpler ones. :roll:

[Skybird]

Doesn't it read loud and clear "From the desk of Paul Belien"...?

[The Avon Lady]

Doesn't it read loud and clear "From the desk of Paul Belien"...?
And how are we supposed to know that's not you? Prove it! :smug:

[STEED]

Doesn't it read loud and clear "From the desk of Paul Belien"...?
And how are we supposed to know that's not you? Prove it! :smug:

The Gauntlet is down Skybird is it to be pistols at dawn? or this :ping:

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/3972/amc0285l7go.jpg

[The Avon Lady]

She can join me for morning tea any time (http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null)! :yep:

[STEED]

That’s hitting the Nail on the Head the clash of the old world and the new world :yep:

Very Interesting :up:

Good Link Avon Lady :yep:

[TteFAboB]

Is she still alive?

[Iceman]

She can join me for morning tea any time (http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null)! :yep:

BAM!...man that gal knows what shes believes in.

Awesome...I bet some peeps were fuming at that...wow.

You Go Girl. :up:

[Happy Times]

She can join me for morning tea any time (http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null)! :yep: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[Happy Times]

Is she still alive? My thoughts also. :hmm:

[AG124]

I don't think I have heard anyone sum up the whole situation better. :up: And the West would be much better off if we could accept this instead of desperately trying to accomodate every unreasonable and childish demand by Muslim conservatives. :yep:

[The Avon Lady]

The never-ending story!

Swedish FM resigns over website closure (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010677.php)

"Free Word" indeed (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010676.php)

Charles criticises cartoons on Middle East tour with Camilla (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010675.php)

UN: Denmark should have played the dhimmi and thrown free speech overboard (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010662.php)

Indian court lets off minister who put bounty on Danish cartoonists (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/010655.php)

The Cartoon Jihad Is Not Finished (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19707_The_Cartoon_Jihad_Is_Not_Finished&only)

[Sixpack]

The never-ending story!

The Cartoon Jihad Is Not Finished (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19707_The_Cartoon_Jihad_Is_Not_Finished&only)


From this weblog:
The delegation from Denmark will consist of: Imam Abdul Wahid Petersen, Imam Abu Laban, Imam Abu Bashar, Imam Shaykh Raed Hlayhel, Imam Ahmed Akkari and the Chairman of the Danish Islamic Council, Jihad al-Farra.

Ban their asses and never allow them on Danish soil again (if only I were president of Danmark or all of Europe for that matter) ;)

[Type XXIII]

Are we digging this up again?

Well, well, well.

I don't want to argue any more over this, just offer this snippet from BBC's websites (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4677976.stm)


Has Muslim reaction to the cartoons been uniform?

Not at all - some Muslims have accused protesters of overreacting.

A weekly newspaper in Jordan reprinted some of the cartoons and urged Muslims to "be reasonable".

Websites produced by and for Muslims have shown the cartoons or linked to them. One liberal website said Muslims were making a mountain out of a molehill.

Some Muslims, mainly in Europe, have supported the re-publication of the images so that individual Muslims can make their own minds up and welcomed the debate on the issues that the cartoons have raised.

It has also been pointed out that cartoons in the Arab and Islamic press "demonising" Israelis and Americans using Jewish and Christian imagery are common.



Let's just not condemn all muslims.