Nuclear submarines, usefull as a dirty WMD?

[TteFAboB]

Hi,

What are the possible uses of a [modern] Nuclear Submarine as a dirty weapon?

From what I know, the reactors are usually strongly sealed, but can a sub reactor explode strong enough to breach the seal and cause enough damage within a considerable area?

I suppose you can drill the thing or however else use it to spread radioactivity, but can it spread enough radioactivity?

Could the torpedo arsenal help in any way? Besides from having a nuclear warhead, could they be used as "dirty" weapons too? Like carrying radioactive material?

Is there a historical record of accidents? If so, what was the level of damage caused? And could they be deliberately reproduced with modern nuclear subs?

Please, do share your knowledge, Navy sources refuse to cooperate, every information is "confidential"...

[JSLTIGER]

For the dirty weapon that you're talking about, you'd need the radioactivity to be spread via the air...since the sub would be underwater (or even mostly underwater when surfaced), I doubt it. I also doubt that this is something that you'd have to worry about though. Very few nations operate nuclear submarines (US, Russia, Britain, France, China) and all of them have decent security measures in place.

[TteFAboB]

Indeed, not exactly easy, but I'm not worried about major nuclear sub owners, I'm concerned about the minors, certainly a nuclear sub costs far more than what a dirty bomb would cost, however, a nuclear sub is concealed as a sub, unlike a dirty bomb, so it would be a good disguise, though very expensive.

[TLAM Strike]

In DW there is a mission where a P-3 has to stop a captured French SSN from being used as a dirty bomb by terrorists. Intresting... :hmm:

[Mustang]

I would think in order for it to be successful instead of a nuclear blast, the sub should beach itself and go for a 'China Scenario.' MeltDown would be far more effectiveand I'd be far more worried about an Aircraft Carrier doing it then a Sub.

[MadMike]

TteFAboB wrote "Please, do share your knowledge, Navy sources refuse to cooperate, every information is "confidential"..."

Looks like someone will be getting a visit from the local security service... :cool:

Yours, Mike

[Konovalov]

TteFAboB wrote "Please, do share your knowledge, Navy sources refuse to cooperate, every information is "confidential"..."

Looks like someone is overdue for a visit from the FBI... :cool:

Yours, Mike

lolz

[MadMike]

Konovalev,
Dont' laugh, I got a call (and went to an interview) when I enquired about some declassified films. :-?
I edited my post, since TTeFAboB isn't from the U.S...

Yours, Mike

[Kapitan]

US, Russia, Britain, France, China

you forgot india she oparates two akula class SSN submarines and have had charlie class submarines too!

[Bill Nichols]

US, Russia, Britain, France, China

you forgot india she oparates two akula class SSN submarines and have had charlie class submarines too!

No Akulas yet for India... :|\

[Kapitan]

according to interfax and itas one akula Rys has been modified and was due to be in indian hands by november 2005

[Konovalov]

Madmike,

At least someone is doing their job then. I found it ironic and more so after your story because it sounded similar to an article I read back in the middle of last year when I was back home in Australia. The article was on a University Student who was studying politics and one unit was terrorism. In his studies he bought and borrowed from his Uni library books on the subject which raised a "flag" with the Australian Federal Police. They subsequently paid him a visit.

Actually here is the article: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/07/26/1122143825666.html

[TteFAboB]

Konovalev,
Dont' laugh, I got a call (and went to an interview) when I enquired about some declassified films. :-?
I edited my post, since TTeFAboB isn't from the U.S...

Yours, Mike

Well, actually that's quite hilarious: MadMike the spy! Want to work for me? Get inside, photograph the blueprints and get out undetected.

---

It seems using nuclear subs as WMD isn't a popular idea, it's not exactly easy to steal one, and it's not exactly easy to convince the large crew necessary to operate one to go on a suicide mission. IF you could sneak one through to your target, retaliation would be severe, to say the least.

[DangerousDaze]

I would guess that it's entirely possible for a nuclear "accident" aboard a sub to create the kind of impact that you would expect from a dirty bomb. All it takes is for a Loss of Coolent Accident (LOCA) for the core to become exposed, melt down and cause a Prompt Critical Rapid Disassembly which would breach the pressure hull and cause a **** storm (that's a technical term ;) ). If the sub was surfaced at the time then this could be a major problem.

Even the safety systems can inadvertantly cause problems. If the ship is at the pier, in a hot standby state and power on the vital bus is lost (the main coolant pump is run from vital power), and assuming that the crew has been incapacitated then the Emergency Cooling (XC) system should kick in to pump cold water round the core to remove the decay heat. Good news. This would actually be really crap news if the XC system kicked in when the ship was rigged for sea and the reactor was critical, because the cold water, which is a great moderator, would cause the fission rate to shoot up and you've got a nasty cold water accident. This is why the XC is valved out when further than 50nm from shore.

Basically there are plenty of ways for a reactor to make a mess. ;)

Nick

/edit - or so I've read. I must stress that I don't know any of this first hand and I'm sure there are plenty of people far more qualified than me reading this. ;)

[Kapitan]

plenty of subs have had reactor failures most famous K19

[tycho102]

I would guess that it's entirely possible for a nuclear "accident" aboard a sub to create the kind of impact that you would expect from a dirty bomb. All it takes is for a Loss of Coolent Accident (LOCA) for the core to become exposed, melt down and cause a Prompt Critical Rapid Disassembly which would breach the pressure hull and cause a poo poo storm (that's a technical term ;) ). If the sub was surfaced at the time then this could be a major problem.

This was the "premise" for a James Bond movie. Don't even remember the name of it, but it was one of the recent ones with Pierce Brosnan. Throwing in a fuel rod of fairly pure U-235 will cause a nice little meltdown, and if it was close enough to a port, it could contaminate a fairly large chunk of water. Not to mention any ground water sources that rely on filtered seawater.


To be honest, I'm far more worried about all the strontium RTG's the Russians have lying about. Those are wicked nasty and many are completely unguarded.

[Iceman]

From reading where the "quotes" thread went off course..I think ya'll been watching too much Star Trek...no beaming in to steal from a nuclear reactor LMAO... :rotfl:

[TLAM Strike]

I would guess that it's entirely possible for a nuclear "accident" aboard a sub to create the kind of impact that you would expect from a dirty bomb. All it takes is for a Loss of Coolent Accident (LOCA) for the core to become exposed, melt down and cause a Prompt Critical Rapid Disassembly which would breach the pressure hull and cause a poo poo storm (that's a technical term ;) ). If the sub was surfaced at the time then this could be a major problem.

This was the "premise" for a James Bond movie. Don't even remember the name of it, but it was one of the recent ones with Pierce Brosnan. Throwing in a fuel rod of fairly pure U-235 will cause a nice little meltdown, and if it was close enough to a port, it could contaminate a fairly large chunk of water. Not to mention any ground water sources that rely on filtered seawater.


To be honest, I'm far more worried about all the strontium RTG's the Russians have lying about. Those are wicked nasty and many are completely unguarded. "Tomorrow Never Dies" I cringe every time I see the scenes that happen on the submarine.

The Victor III has an aft torpedo tube that can be sealed, flooded, equalized, and fired by the push of one button. :roll: That’s a stretch even for Bond… :down:

[JSLTIGER]

Actually...it was "The World is Not Enough"....and it was claimed that he was going out an escape trunk. Still not very realistic.

[MadMike]

Actually the interview process was quite amusing. One individual looked like Jeff Corwin from "Animal Planet", the other dude (whom I'll call "Hawkeye") glared at me continuously (KGB tactics, apparently). The FBI fellow didn't have much to say, except when I told them I was actually in the film I enquired about. :huh:

Yours, Mike