Russians alleges British of spying

[Rotary Crewman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4638136.stm

And in other news, Russian gas pipe lines get destroyed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4637034.stm

Is the red storm rising?? :-?

Before anyone jumps on, i don't think it is but could make for interesting speculation ;)

[XabbaRus]

Pipeline explosion, I don't think that was the Russians.

The spying thing. Possibly, never stopped really, just someone screwed up, or got lucky, or there is a mole in UK Intel.

[Konovalov]

The spying thing. Possibly, never stopped really.

I agree with that.

[Rotary Crewman]

Why would you stop though? Got to keep an eye on them frisky chaps

[mog]

The spying thing. Possibly, never stopped really, just someone screwed up, or got lucky, or there is a mole in UK Intel.
Perhaps The Fifth Man is still in place? :o

[Mustang]

Yeah M8s,
You have to keep an eye on those commies!
:hmm:

[joea]

Yeah M8s,
You have to keep an eye on those commies!
:hmm:

They are no longer commies though. Gotta go to Pyongyang to find true commies.

[Kapitan]

EDITED for security reasons

[Oberon]

spying never stopped there is FSB agents all over putin would have made sure of that as he is ex KGB

Sssssh, do you want to blow your cover?! :huh:

[Kapitan]

edited just for you

[Happy Times]

Is the red storm rising?? Yes.

[U-552Erich-Topp]

:up: :up: :up:

[Type941]

Russia is an enemy for the west, it's been like that since WW2 and it is still so villified. And Russia is still being waged war upon it by the west, and the same war that it has been losing for years - the information war. Say anything bad about Russia (the gas pipe explosion) and people believe it. Anything good, or decent - and people think it's a lie. It's been like that for some time, and always will be probably till some huge global war that will not be an information one (russia usually can fight there pretty good, as opposed to PR). The fact that many people today already believe that it was the US that won the WW2 is perhaps the best example how russia lost this information war. Never mind the fact it lost half of all casualties (those are now dismissed as Stalin's own purges).



Are the brits spying? If I can put a bet on that, I'd put the house on it. Of course they are. Always have been. All I hope is that Russia is spying in UK as well, that's about the only way they can go about it really (another way you can do it, is spy on your own people, but let's leave that to the leader of the free world, the beloved by some here Bush!).

The gas pipe though - that's just hillareous - I'm totally amazed how the rest of the world is actually listening to what that large glovepuppet Saakashvili is saying (you should hear his interview to Reuters - you'd never think it's a country leader talking...)

[TLAM Strike]

A tape recorder in a Styrofoam rock? Come on ‘Q Branch’ can do better! :lol:

Where is Major Boothroyd when you need him!
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1728/250pxdesmondllewelyn0dy.jpg
(RIP Desmond llewelyn :( )

[kiwi_2005]

Is Russian really an enemy to the west? I dont think so. Behind close doors CIA & KGB spys might of had a shoot out etc during the cold war., but russia has never been a threat. Just fear of the other. Whos the real threat today?

[CCIP]

Is Russian really an enemy to the west? I dont think so. Behind close doors CIA & KGB spys might of had a shoot out etc during the cold war., but russia has never been a threat. Just fear of the other. Whos the real threat today?

The real threat is thinking that the projected threat is the real one.

I definitely agree with Type941 there, though I'd add that the Western dislike of Russia goes to well before World War II - just that the global influence of the country hadn't been very tangible until that the time. That said, I'm perfectly convinced that there hasn't been a time in history when the West actually trusted Russia.

[The Avon Lady]

Is Russian really an enemy to the west? I dont think so. Behind close doors CIA & KGB spys might of had a shoot out etc during the cold war., but russia has never been a threat. Just fear of the other. Whos the real threat today?
In many ways, Russia has been very slowly sliding back towards old habits. Witness the military sales to rogue regimes, the creeping control of the Russian government favorites in politics, business and media, etc.

Personally, if the trend continues, Russia will find itself to be its own worst enemy.

[Happy Times]

Pravda Ru is close to Putin and Kreml, their version of the incident. Next Putin will sign the law to ban non-governmental organizations in Russia.. http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/354/16781_spying.html Interesting article about why US foreign minister interferes to Russias "internal affairs". :doh: http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/354/16724_Condoleezza.html And make a good effort to prove that a man that attacked a synagogue wasnt a anti-semite, it was the reason of a video game :roll: http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/87/347/16738_Jews.html This is the type of agenda that Putin (dictator) represents. And they get it out very well as they have allmost total control on the media.

[Happy Times]

And if you dont know what they are trying, i can tell you. Russia wants to prevent a more unified EU. EU as a one entity with its own foreign and security policy is seen as a threat, a potential superpower and eurasian rival (they love geopolitics). Their method is, to make Europe so dependent as possible from their oil, gas and other resources. To establish bilateral relations to the EU member countries, especially the big ones. Thus undermining the goal for one foreign policy for the EU. Finland has protested about these relations especially to Germany and Italy. They have both created a strong dependency for Russia and have had very personal relations to Putin. (Schröder went to Cristmas church with him, adopted a doughter from russia, Putin has spend holidays with Berlusconi..) They use these relations to have Europeans look the other way when it comes to their what they feel are their spheres of influence. Bellorussia (they have a union) , Ukraine (they extort and try to destabilise this country) and the Caucasus (use the war on terror as an excuse) are clearly seen to be strategically important. The joining of the Baltic countries to NATO was a bigger blow to the russians than people in the west generally understand. Finland borders over 1600km of common border with Russia. But look at the map, Kola peninsula (most of their nukes) and St. Petersburg (biggest military manufacturing area) are a just of the border. In the long run they want to emerge again as a competitor with US like USSR was. So they play these games with China (wich they hate) , Iran , North Korea or anyone to weaken and disperse United States. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck! (shoot it) WAKE UP PEOPLE!

[Type941]

ah, the russian hater Happy Times. What good are you for a non-biased discussion? :huh: :rotfl:

Yeah, it's been much more than 70 years that the west hates russia and all that land.

It dates back to roman empire really - a disgusting, barbaric nation that was decayed to the core (ROME) with its gladiatorial games, it's bare arse army and absolutely corrupt government. It was beaten by these 'barbarians'. That's when it all started really. the 'holy roman empire' and the split with the east, all that great stuff. It wouldn't hurt to know that before the mongol invasion, Kiev Russ was known as land of cities, and many monastries in russia were producers of all sorts of weaponry for the western europe (gun powder units). It also wouldn't hurt to know that Ivan the Terrible was not the monster he's portrayed but actually introduced these to russia (before the well known Peter the Great legends tell us):
- introduced the jury to the court system
- free elementary education (in churches and monasteries)
- medical quarantine on borders
- first regular russian army and one of the first war uniform in the world (Strelec)
- stopped the tatar skirmishes for good
- made the society more or less equal (there was no tie to land in the sense it existed in europe at the time where - and peasant's children were free to do what they want)
- forbid slavery work
- expanded country's territory in 30 times
- had a few 1000 percent growth in wealth of population
- noone was killed without trial and the number of actually 'repressed' was about 5000 people

This is 1500s by the way...

all of those are documented in many sources, i'm just not putting them down as the word 'Sudebnik Ivano Groznogo' would tell jack to majority here.

And now here's the fun part - you won't believe any of this just because you don't think it's possible and you still treat russia as this dumb, naive, drunk nation of beggars and theives, ruled by a spy dictator. That bit about Ivan the terrible is one of the things people aren't familiar with - to many, his just a moron who went mad and slaughtered thousands of his own people (must be the name!).


Have fun with the history. Have at least an open mind, otherwise you'll end up hating everyone who dares to say differently (like Happy Times = an ironic nickname really). :roll:

NGOs (one of which involved in the scandal is Moscow Helsinki Group.. :stare: )... Well, Britain will shut up about those now, that's why this scandal is coming out now. Britain criticized russia for it - and now Russia shows Britain sponsoring these that potentially are against the russian government. Democracy is fantastic for the stupid oppressed people because it's very easy to wave infront of them and convince them that life will get better. Just doesn't work that way. Look at Georgia with an idiot for a leader, and Ukraine with a guy whose wife is american - what kind of country loyalty can he hace? :) He didn't even dare to get out yesterday to that same square where he was elected president 1 year ago - the people might get 'angry'. ;)

And than think of what the US is doing in South America. it's kind of secluded from us in Europe, but the way US is doing its business there is most fascinating...

[joea]

Umm Type 941 I find your posts interesting but you are reaching A LOT when talking about Ancient Rome being beat by I assume you think Russians or the their ancestors then jumping forward to the 1500s??? These ancient states are different from the modern ones. Furthermore, the Kievan Rus was strongly influenced by the Eastern Roman Empire (ie. Byzantine Empire) from which they received Christianity among other things. "The West" as we know it today and "Russia" were unknown then. Otherwise don't forget people from Finland probably think the same about Russia as say Nicaragua thinks of the USA too?

That said I agree with the consistent anti-Russian bias here, if Russian against did what those Brits did we would never hear the end of it. :know:

[Iceman]

Personally I think most Americans think of Russia as a friend...with the work Regan did and the fall of the Berlin wall and the collapse of the old Soviet leadership I think ALOT of Americans think that everything just became hunky dory between America and Russia.Why...? As much as I hate to think it I beleive it is mostly because of skin color....white.As crappy as that sounds I believe that is a major reason for the automatic acceptance of Russia....many people in America never have thought badly about the Russian people...just the villified government of them...probably alot like what Americas government is made out to be now....We all know alot of wars are fought over such non-sense....Maybe Skybird with his background in human behavior can elaborate on this.....all I am trying to say here is Americans "I think" welcome Russia with open arms...maybe some cause of economic reasons..maybe some cause of racial reasons...maybe some cause of blind belief in what the media puts out....

just my 2cents....personally I have nothing against anyone or country that follows the basic "Human" nature laws...don't kill your neighbor,,,don't steal from him...etc etc....Love thy Neighbor....or as Josey Wales put it to Ten Bears...


Ten Bears: These things you say we will have, we already have.
Josey Wales: That's true. I ain't promising you nothing extra. I'm just giving you life and you're giving me life. And I'm saying that men can live together without butchering one another.
Ten Bears: It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Ten Bears carries the same iron of life and death. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life... or death. It shall be life.

Peace...

[CCIP]

Umm Type 941 I find your posts interesting but you are reaching A LOT when talking about Ancient Rome being beat by I assume you think Russians or the their ancestors then jumping forward to the 1500s??? These ancient states are different from the modern ones.

I think Type941 didn't come through entirely clear, but I can actually see a very good connection to times that go that far back. I think a good argument could be made that the dreaded East-West divisions go at least as far back as the split between the Orthodox and Catholic churches a thousand years ago. In many ways, Russia is the heir to the Byzanthine empire.

And as much as I don't want to bring out a nationalist rhethoric which I myself resent, I think anti-slav sentiments, even in residue, are still rooted somewhere in the Western consciousness.

Also,

Personally, if the trend continues, Russia will find itself to be its own worst enemy.

Actually, this has already been the case for the last several hundred years at least. :dead:

[Happy Times]

ah, the russian hater Happy Times. What good are you for a non-biased discussion? :huh: :rotfl:

Yeah, it's been much more than 70 years that the west hates russia and all that land.

It dates back to roman empire really - a disgusting, barbaric nation that was decayed to the core (ROME) with its gladiatorial games, it's bare arse army and absolutely corrupt government. It was beaten by these 'barbarians'. That's when it all started really. the 'holy roman empire' and the split with the east, all that great stuff. It wouldn't hurt to know that before the mongol invasion, Kiev Russ was known as land of cities, and many monastries in russia were producers of all sorts of weaponry for the western europe (gun powder units). It also wouldn't hurt to know that Ivan the Terrible was not the monster he's portrayed but actually introduced these to russia (before the well known Peter the Great legends tell us):
- introduced the jury to the court system
- free elementary education (in churches and monasteries)
- medical quarantine on borders
- first regular russian army and one of the first war uniform in the world (Strelec)
- stopped the tatar skirmishes for good
- made the society more or less equal (there was no tie to land in the sense it existed in europe at the time where - and peasant's children were free to do what they want)
- forbid slavery work
- expanded country's territory in 30 times
- had a few 1000 percent growth in wealth of population
- noone was killed without trial and the number of actually 'repressed' was about 5000 people

This is 1500s by the way...

all of those are documented in many sources, i'm just not putting them down as the word 'Sudebnik Ivano Groznogo' would tell jack to majority here.

And now here's the fun part - you won't believe any of this just because you don't think it's possible and you still treat russia as this dumb, naive, drunk nation of beggars and theives, ruled by a spy dictator. That bit about Ivan the terrible is one of the things people aren't familiar with - to many, his just a moron who went mad and slaughtered thousands of his own people (must be the name!).


Have fun with the history. Have at least an open mind, otherwise you'll end up hating everyone who dares to say differently (like Happy Times = an ironic nickname really). :roll:

NGOs (one of which involved in the scandal is Moscow Helsinki Group.. :stare: )... Well, Britain will shut up about those now, that's why this scandal is coming out now. Britain criticized russia for it - and now Russia shows Britain sponsoring these that potentially are against the russian government. Democracy is fantastic for the stupid oppressed people because it's very easy to wave infront of them and convince them that life will get better. Just doesn't work that way. Look at Georgia with an idiot for a leader, and Ukraine with a guy whose wife is american - what kind of country loyalty can he hace? :) He didn't even dare to get out yesterday to that same square where he was elected president 1 year ago - the people might get 'angry'. ;)

And than think of what the US is doing in South America. it's kind of secluded from us in Europe, but the way US is doing its business there is most fascinating... Ivan the Terrible allso established the laws restricting the mobility of the peasants, which would eventually lead to serfdom :roll: He founded Ohrana (that killed thousands) , direct prededicessor to NKVD, KGB and FSB :nope: You are laughing at democracy, i find it disturbing but im not suprised.But some of us have actually made it work. :doh: So Russia doesnt like Georgia and Ukraine and they cut the gas to undermine their leaders. Hoping they will come back to the bosom of mother russia, rodina. Or you could just try to kill them http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/The-man-who-survived-Russias-poison-chalice/2005/01/22/1106334263427.html

[XabbaRus]

As a westerner who has lived in Russia and studied the country I do agree that there does seem to be not so much an anti-Russian hatred in the western press but a more negatively critical attitude under teh surface.

It's as if it had become ingrained during the cold war and both sides are still living up to it.

Thing is the way teh Soviet Union collapsed didn't help.

In some ways Russia has been criticised by the west whichever path she has taken since the fall of the USSR.

IE, when Yeltsin was president the west chided Russia over its economic policies not being stable and having to do this for a loan and that for a loan etc.

Now under Putin real GDP has increased. Real wealth and I mean per capita has seen real growth too. The govt is more fiscally responsible and measures were taken to protect the economy from any shocks, eg the big reserve built up. Now although I do agree that in terms of press freedoms things have slipped back, with Putin taking tight control I believe that Russia is more stable economically. Compare 2006 Russia with 1996 Russia, big difference. However Putin is now being hounded about going back to the bad old ways etc..Is their evidence for it, well for state control of media maybe (Radio and TV yes) for Industries, well the heavy ones yes. I get the feeling though that Putin's plan is to allow medium to small enterprises to remain private but the big heavy strategic industries are to be taken back in to state control, even if they are managed in a market way.

However my point is Russias empire collapsed over night, and the Georgians, Ukrainians et al find it easy to blame Russia for everything that is wrong in their countries. Regardless of the good things that Russia as the Soviet Union might have brought.

About Ukraine and all the former republics, it seems their pro-democratic politicians seem to have forgotten that they were more than likely good members of the communist party and they benefitted from the break up due to them getting to the right positions so they could take what they could get. EG Tymoshenko, she didn't become a millionaire through hard graft and business brains..hmmmm

So I agree with CCIP there does seem to be residue left over...it will take decades to settle out. West was bloody naive to think it would be all hunky dory.

[TteFAboB]

And than think of what the US is doing in South America. it's kind of secluded from us in Europe, but the way US is doing its business there is most fascinating...

What do you know about this subject? What do you know about geopolitical foreign relations from the past 500 years in South America, can you tell me how many twists Venezuela-US relations had? Can you tell me how the relations between Brazil and USA developed in the past 50 years? How do you classify the relations between Roosevelt-Vargas, Lyndon Johnson-Costa e Silva, Nixon-Médici, Reagan-Figueiredo/Sarney, Bush father-Collor, Clinton-FHC, Bush son-Lula? Or is the history not important? What do you know about inter-South American relations? Do you understand the Kirchner-Morales-Lula-Chavez Axis? Do you know anything at all about the "Foro de Sao Paulo" and did you ever read the transcripts from the "Forum Social Mundial"? Do you even know South America is a large continent with 11 countries, each with their own peculiarities and their own special (unique) relations towards the US?

The fact you ignore the unique bilaterality of each country is even more fascinating, because you claim the West doesn't understand Russia, but you seem not to understand South Ameria-USA relations, do you even investigate the causes and reasons for the American foreign policy or you take the comfortable ideological stance and assume without evidence whatever the USA does must be wrong and is bad?

Mr. Type941, you seem to fall victim to the very monster you dislike.

But if history has any value to you, maybe you'd like to see what was found out when a Brazilian journalist researched the USSR-South America relations archives for the first time, you will find the the way USSR done its business there was most fascinating...though you may be dissapointed, today the US doesn't get even close.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/8571643423/qid=1138180276/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-6389127-7571311?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

[CCIP]

The fact you ignore the unique bilaterality of each country is even more fascinating, because you claim the West doesn't understand Russia, but you seem not to understand South Ameria-USA relations, do you even investigate the causes and reasons for the American foreign policy or you take the comfortable ideological stance and assume without evidence whatever the USA does must be wrong and is bad?

If anything, perhaps he's fallen victim to generalization, but I don't think he's completely off-point. On a general level, it's hard to ignore the Monroe doctrine and how it's continued to have an effect on South America.

All bad though? Considering the geographical situation and economical importance of the US in regard to this area of the world, it wouldn't be valid to say it's all bad or all simple. :hmm:

[TteFAboB]

He wasn't very specific so it's hard to imagine what he's talking about.

Still, my point remains, it is understood that each former [U]SSR has a different relation towards Russia, Georgia is a particular case different from Estonia which is different from Belarus.

So, if we accept this fact, if we recognize these differences, it would be silly not to do the same with most other regions in the globe.

[Skybird]

And if you dont know what they are trying, i can tell you. Russia wants to prevent a more unified EU. EU as a one entity with its own foreign and security policy is seen as a threat, a potential superpower and eurasian rival (they love geopolitics). Their method is, to make Europe so dependent as possible from their oil, gas and other resources. To establish bilateral relations to the EU member countries, especially the big ones. Thus undermining the goal for one foreign policy for the EU. Finland has protested about these relations especially to Germany and Italy. They have both created a strong dependency for Russia and have had very personal relations to Putin. (Schröder went to Cristmas church with him, adopted a doughter from russia, Putin has spend holidays with Berlusconi..) They use these relations to have Europeans look the other way when it comes to their what they feel are their spheres of influence. Bellorussia (they have a union) , Ukraine (they extort and try to destabilise this country) and the Caucasus (use the war on terror as an excuse) are clearly seen to be strategically important. The joining of the Baltic countries to NATO was a bigger blow to the russians than people in the west generally understand. Finland borders over 1600km of common border with Russia. But look at the map, Kola peninsula (most of their nukes) and St. Petersburg (biggest military manufacturing area) are a just of the border. In the long run they want to emerge again as a competitor with US like USSR was. So they play these games with China (wich they hate) , Iran , North Korea or anyone to weaken and disperse United States. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck! (shoot it) WAKE UP PEOPLE!
I assume we should take from that, that American interest concerning it's demands of what the EU and NATO should look like, are only well-meant and in Europe's best interests, then... :lol: WAKE UP PEOPLE! Don't trust both.

-----

The major center of interest for intel today is economical spying, and here all Western countries fight against all other Western countries, and neither the US nor the British intel services nor the German ones are any exception in this. Nations never built friendships, never. Spying on economical targets has drastically increased since end of the cold war. When it comes to economical interests, comanies are not alone with themselves but can count on massive supoport by their government's intel services. And that is valid for ALL Western nations.

US interests in South America are far from beeing in these country's best interests as well. US, russia: the goals are the same, the tools getting used are slightly different - at first glance.

[Oberon]

Awful lot of accidents happening to these pipelines :-?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4654632.stm

[CCIP]

Awful lot of accidents happening to these pipelines :-?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4654632.stm

Well it's no accident that they're on the same pipeline, eh? :hmm:

I'd be surprised if anyone blames Russia for this one. I mean, why the hell would they cut out gas on their own territory?

[Type941]

Let me tell you about Georgia and Ukraine!

Terroist (criminals, whatever) blow up a pipelines to georgia. Beyond repair. georgia's first response "Nothing else comes to my head, must have been the russians doing it on purpose". Read to what this 30+ year old Saakvashvili is saying. So now, the workers fixing the pipelines have to go into this -20C cold, and start fixing the pipelines (russians) just so georgia doesn't freeze. Yesterday, some petty officier is ordering the gas supply to russian embasy stopped because "those little people are probably responsible for this anyway - I'm sure they'll have other means of getting the power". Meanwhile, Ukraine, who already STOLE quite a lot of gas from supplies to Europe, is deciding to give AID to georgia that's freezing up. Ukraine, that claims to have no gas of its own and is struggling due to colds week ago, is giving RUSSIAN gas away for free to georgia as a type of humanitarian aid. How nice. I don't know, but I believe sh*t like that will lead to a full war at some point if the puppets in Ukraine and Georgia don't stop. Meanwhile, countries like Hungary have to start thinking of getting gas from alternative places, like Afrika. Sure, it's far away and expensive, but at least theres no Ukraine in the middle.

Current Georgia and Ukraine governments are the ones elected on utter unpopularity of an alternative regime. Their ONLY way to consolidate people is to create an outside enemy and blame them for everything, from lack of tangerines on the hillside to the color of milk their cows are giving. This outside enemy is Russia. And there's only ONE country that benefits from this instability - the USA. Because for planning a war on IRAN, USA needs the bases at some point in the caucases. Azerbaidzhan and Georgia sound qutie good. Russia on the other hand is totally isolated. To be honest, I'm am completely stunned that Russia isn't actually changing to direct confrontation with these puppet regimes and doesn't take them out like the US does. For russia, saakashvili is same as Castro for US. I don't see them staying in power much longer, because first and foremost thanks to them their people are now freezing. Georgia freely supports tchechen terrorists in Pankiss canyon where they can rest and get some supplies of humans and weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if Georgia will initiate a war confilict with Russia hoping for bakcing of the west (over Sukhumi) and this can get ulgy fast. But I doubt US will want to start miliatry conflict directly against russia over a georgia. but if anyone has some doubt if US is hostile to russia, wake up. the government of the US has always had the goal of destabilizing russia and never allowing it to be a superpower. This time around russia is riding a strong economy and getting stronger every day, and that worries the hell of US.

-----

Chill out over the South America dude, I only say it's fascinating to find out what's going on there, before you start qouting me your thesis paper sources.

[Type941]

So Russia doesnt like Georgia and Ukraine and they cut the gas to undermine their leaders.

Yes, see, that's exactly my point. You just haven't got a clue why the gas was cut in ukraine, and don't even bother to question the motives behind BLOWING UP their own gaslines to Georgia (beyond repair, I might add). I'm sorry, but it's so difficult to speak with an opponent who ignores reality. Again, look it: Ukraine was deprived of gas because it DEMANDED to be supplied gas under prices that are 5 times less than those which go to EU. Georgia is just georgia, the president is 'samodur' (look it up in russian, I can't translate, basically a self-induced-idiot but hard to explain it correctly) and that's all.

Russia didn't cut gas - GAZPROM did. Putin's not in charge of it. Gazprom is a business that didnt' want to lose money. Ukraine made it political, UKRAINE. And I believe the next gas crisis will be the end of Yucsenko as a president.

===

Regarding the East West - I'm not reaching back for no reason. The East West division never existed until the break up of Roman empire, and thanks to THE CHURCH, we have what we have. It's all about the myths that the "west" created about the east - an uncivilized, barbaric, pagan. Rings a bell? Guess what, the east was so much more developed during the Roman times, that it's given credit to. For one, its army was not a bunch of bare arse legioneers, but more like covered in armour cataphracts.

history has been rewritten many many times. To happy times.

I'm not saying russia is all saint. Russia's life under tatar mongol invasion IMO destroyed so much of it. Not only the economy, but the whole culture that existed before it. Ever since the 300 year invasion, russia took over and intergrated so much of barbaric (truly) mongols. pretty much all of our swear language now is derived from tatar mongol. It's very barking like, very offensive. Story goes the first time mongols 'visited' russia and fought the 'varjags' (vikings basically) that were enjoying ruling status in the Russ, there was a fight. A big fight, where the russians lost. So they surrendered. They assumed as always, they'd be allowed to go back as noblemen, and so on. But now - the tatars took all of them, put them on the ground, and DANCED on them for hours celebrating their win. Obviously they all died. So all of a sudden a very civilized nation was turned on its head by a very brutal mongol invader. With time, russians took over so much of their brash, brutal ways that they became a part of us forever (unfortunately). Things, such as lack of any respect by the rulers towards its people. That's why in Russia for centuries, the government never felt responsible before its own people. That sh*t is centuries old, not just communism induced. That's how we are - our own unique civilization developed in that manner. The biggest tragedy was this mongol invasion that was nothing like any other invasion. It was many generations long, the became part of russia. Later one, when Russia changed this domination (Ivan the Terrible), the mongol elite horse archers were used in the russian army as key task forces. they were integrated basicaly, and now we don't have any sort of hatred to mongols as Estonia has towards germans and russians for example.

The east/west division is mainly thanks to the church though, and indeed it goes a looong way back.

[Grom]

but if anyone has some doubt if US is hostile to russia, wake up. the government of the US has always had the goal of destabilizing russia and never allowing it to be a superpower. This time around russia is riding a strong economy and getting stronger every day, and that worries the hell of US.
This conclusion is doubtful at all. In long history that was the Russia who had always looking for outside enemy. Who gives Your right to call puppets democratic goverment of Ukraina.
Meanwhile, Ukraine, who already STOLE quite a lot of gas from supplies to Europe
What with Romania then ? Gasprom increased the prices of gas about 400%. This is violation of long term contract which is valid for next 10 years (in Romania case). The point is that Russia has no money to pay for transit of gas true Ukrainian, Romanian, Polish territories. Thats why Russia pays this in gas. By increasing prices Russian goverment want to increase the income from sell and dicrease transit charges. Using Gasprom company as political tool, and fuel supplies as politcal argument. Some days ago when conflict between Russia and Ukraine came on top, there were comments in british BBC TV. That Russia appears as unflexible and unreliable businnes partner. Let me tell You that Eastern European countries have enough of Russian superpower politics. All of them from Ukrainian to Hungarian ex USSR and Warsaw Pact countires wish to be free finally (except White Russia with its puppet Lukaschenko). Thats why they joined EU. To be partners in interests, to be part of Europe and part of free world. What todays Russia disagree is that superpower position of this country is dicreasing with every year. The ambitions to be a superpower are stronger than respect for independency of other countries, is stronger than only one right thinking of building up great country in democratic way, and partnership with other countries. What is wrong in aid help to Georgia ? Nothing i would say. The same like aid for Russia which is strugling with money. But there is something wrong if economic situation of Russian citizens is very bad, and goverment put lot of money in new weapons projects. Russian goverment is going back to USSR time with dream of satelite countries which will work for Russia. The time is to wake up not for rest of the world. The time to wake up is for Russia and goverment of this country.
Personally i like Russians so much. I have met many of them, they are very friendly people. But politics and propaganda of Russian goverment is poisoning they minds. No one is Russian State and independece and freedom enemy. No one. The only one who is looking for outside enemy is Russian goverment.

[joea]

Yes 941, I get your point now, after all the Eastern history is part of my own (An ancestor was a Greek merchant in Cesarea, now Kayseri) and I know full well the differences between East and West Rome, and how the East was more advanced for centuries. I just made the point there are similarities in how some small countries in different parts of the world see Russia and the USA.

[TteFAboB]

Chill out over the South America dude, I only say it's fascinating to find out what's going on there, before you start qouting me your thesis paper sources.

Chilled. Like you said it yourself, I believe there are many fascinating topics you'll never hear about, how could it be any different, if Hugo Chavez steals all the space reserved for SA anyway? How individualistic of him to monopolize all the space for himself!

[Type941]

I'll gladly reply to your post G. in full, but a bit later. One thing that struck me now is you believe honestly that government in Ukraina is democratic. Which is a mojore mistake. It's just another corrupt coalition (that fell apart btw) that's taken over the old one. Son of Yuchenko is driving around in cars that cost half a million euro, use cellphones that cost 40000 dollars, and live in very shady apartments registered to unknown parties. When confronted with all of this (how is it possible for such poor nation to have such well funded life of sons president) the answer was typical 'let's focus on real issues, he's a good boy, that's all' blah. :) Reality? Yushenko is as corrupt as anyone else over there, he's a part of former government that he replaced, what more do you want to know! If you think he's some white sheep - wake up mate. He's just got 1 way to stay in power - blame russia for everything, because it drives SOME part of his country. But not the western part that is totally pro russian... You have to realize, that Russian and Ukranian people's closeness is not a made up thing. It's a fact - our nations are very closely related so for Russia to be having an interest in Ukraine is perfectly natural, and not so many oppose this as CNN would have you belief. My grandmother is ukranian for example. It's the Ukranian governent that's trying to present this as national issue. Matter of the fact it that Yushenko is a puppet of the US and that's the full stop.

[Happy Times]

Type241 We are very far apart in our wiews, but this bit you wrote got my attention. The realison of this legacy in Russia AND learning from it, could be the key to peace and prosperity for the Russian people and bases for good relations with its neigbours. I'm not saying russia is all saint. Russia's life under tatar mongol invasion IMO destroyed so much of it. Not only the economy, but the whole culture that existed before it. Ever since the 300 year invasion, russia took over and intergrated so much of barbaric (truly) mongols. pretty much all of our swear language now is derived from tatar mongol. It's very barking like, very offensive. Story goes the first time mongols 'visited' russia and fought the 'varjags' (vikings basically) that were enjoying ruling status in the Russ, there was a fight. A big fight, where the russians lost. So they surrendered. They assumed as always, they'd be allowed to go back as noblemen, and so on. But now - the tatars took all of them, put them on the ground, and DANCED on them for hours celebrating their win. Obviously they all died. So all of a sudden a very civilized nation was turned on its head by a very brutal mongol invader. With time, russians took over so much of their brash, brutal ways that they became a part of us forever (unfortunately). Things, such as lack of any respect by the rulers towards its people. That's why in Russia for centuries, the government never felt responsible before its own people. That sh*t is centuries old, not just communism induced. That's how we are - our own unique civilization developed in that manner. The biggest tragedy was this mongol invasion that was nothing like any other invasion. It was many generations long, the became part of russia. Later one, when Russia changed this domination (Ivan the Terrible), the mongol elite horse archers were used in the russian army as key task forces. they were integrated basicaly, and now we don't have any sort of hatred to mongols as Estonia has towards germans and russians for example.

[STEED]

And the Spy Rock :huh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4658462.stm

What Next :rotfl:

[CCIP]

My grandmother is ukranian for example. It's the Ukranian governent that's trying to present this as national issue. Matter of the fact it that Yushenko is a puppet of the US and that's the full stop.

I'll subscribe to all that. :yep:

***

I'm tempted to doubt the severity of the Mongol thing somewhat, I suppose, although I myself won't deny having some Tartar roots (at the same time, most of my ethnic Russian background is from the Novgorod area, untouched by that invasion). There are surely other aspects to the national tragedy of Russia's character, and I don't think it's fair to blame outside invaders for it exclusively. It's infinitely more complex than that.

Otherwise, the only thing that keeps irritating me is the attitude of "Russia=USSR", especially in relation to the dealings with former Soviet republics. Please, Ukraine. Your Bolscheviks were in it too all along. You're not any less guilty than Russia is of the injustices inflicted by the totalitarian rule, and if we do go by that logic - then Georgia may be the most guilty of all! (and what are they complaining of?)

The bottom line is that this energy thing is an issue of dealing with the still-Soviet infrastructure. And that's a legacy of the USSR which will continue to cause problems because there is no right answer - blaming any of the 'successor states' is not the right answer. The only answer I can come up with is "cooperate or get your own". Russia owes Ukraine no more favours than Georgia or Azerbaijan owe Ukraine.

[Iceman]

And the Spy Rock :huh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4658462.stm

What Next :rotfl:

Well....


http://www.cyberallies.com/miscpics/csilence1.jpg
"See Chief? It's working fine!"

http://www.cyberallies.com/miscpics/csilence2.jpg
"We're supposed to be sitting, Max!"

http://www.cyberallies.com/miscpics/csilence3.jpg
"We are sitting, Chief."

http://www.cyberallies.com/miscpics/minicone1.jpg
"I'm telling you Max, this isn't a good idea!"

http://www.cyberallies.com/miscpics/minicone2.jpg
"You see? Stuck!!"

LMAO...ahh the old days of Kaos and Control... lol. :)

[The Avon Lady]

:nope: :nope: NOT THE CONE OF SILENCE! :nope: :nope:

[STEED]

Nice one Iceman :rotfl:

[STEED]

It's the Cold War Part 2 starring a lot of people who are very boring :zzz: :zzz:

[Grom]

You have to realize, that Russian and Ukranian people's closeness is not a made up thing
Just for You my friend. We as people, grey parts in our goverments games are much much closer. It is because we are slavic nations. We have the same roots. But politics puts a lot of poison and i disagree with it.
My father family comes from Russia, my mathers family comes from east of Polish Kingdom far far from todays border. My grand garnd mother have been workin in palace in Petersburg when right owners used to occupy this building. Times are changing and today You can call Ukrainian president corrupted man, but he is still chosen one. If he fail then no one else tahn Ukrainian people will pay the price. Same is with You Russians. Same with other nations. Thats what democracy is. I am glad You answered but still avoided primary arguments. ;)

[Type941]

The Polish Kingdom? And we are arrogant? :)

That aside, I have to ask have you ever EVER heard anything about this boring business of gas transit before some parasites in ukraine were cut off from it after they were stealing it for year from European partners of Gazprom? ...

You want politics out of it? Here you go. Let's put this into business perspective.

Some time ago (right before revolution of Roses), a certain Mikhail Saakashvili has been negotiating a deal on oil supply from Iran at a price for about 110USD/1000m2. To do this, he'd need to cut the Russians out of the deal. He'd also be getting the money from US (because Georgia in past years really doesn't produce ANY real money - it's all grants and aid from.. that's right, Uncle Sam, the one who educated young Mihkail in one of its ivy league schools...).

Now, Mikhail is not only a loud mouth, he's in it to make money. Why would he get the money for free? He needs to do something for it (Business). So he's got a mission - to do anything he can to hurt and discredit Russia (2 days ago he announced on national level that Russia killed 30000 people and removed 300000 from Osetia and called it genocide... Russia didn't even respond, thank god, to this idioticy). He's been implying that Russia blew up its own gas line to hurt georgia. Makes total sense. He made the statement 2 hours after it happened - even terrorist wait longer before claiming responsibility. But I'm sorry, back to business.

So Mikhail (call him Misha) gets the money from US for 'democracy' [read: getting out russia peace keeping force in Osetia and taking it [osetia] back by force, and provoking the peacekeepers on bloodsheb]. Apparently it's not peanuts, there is a lot of money. Misha spends a good portion of it on energy as well... But you see, he finds this sweet deal in Iran. He can buy oil there for 110 and ditch russia, but it has to be done loudly, and he has almost achieved it. Russia HATES the guy and I mean they really are getting annoyed as they are first signs appearing in press that they might be putting more troops into the area soon, and not the peacekeeper type. So Misha has his envoys doing the deal with Iran, and another upside is he doesn't have to report to Washington on how much he buys or pays as Washington can't check that from Iran anyway(Iran would never disclose any info to Washington, I hope that's obvious). So he's almost done with the deal, when just recently Iran says $230 is the price. So Misha is histerical and has envoys running back and forth to Tehran like you wouldn't believe. Finally deal is done, and he still will bag quite a lot from it. But of course not as previously.

Meanwhile you all think he cares about his people. Oh ignorance is bliss. He's screaming Georgia is the most independent country in the world. That's right, as nothing depends on Georgia.

Currently waiting for the US to wake up and smell the roses. No pun intended [year right]. :hmm:

Here's the thing. Democracy is great. When people decided and the people in power have to convince them they are all participating. This stage took place in all european countries centuries ago. Some did better than others. In UK, the king lived and in france they hanged him because he didn't think people's opinion mattered much. But you see, once you arrive to this democracy, you have to keep it. That's why you create all sorts of institutions that really don't give any power to the people. Yes, in US, people have general human rights. But do they decide as PEOPLE if they should go to war? Oh that's right, the senate makes the decision? Oh, the President I mean. The majority of US is against the war, yet you are in war. Democracy at work? I don't think so guys. Think about it. You don't decide anything that's key to your security if you live in 'old' democracy. In fact, Liberalism and Democracy are now totally separate things and I suppose Liberalism is something higher than Democracy. Liberals are scorned at in many countries... ;) Now, next time US tries to install democracy somewhere like Iraq, Georgia, Ukraine, the people should really understand what's going on.

Sorry for long post.

[TteFAboB]

Here's the thing. Democracy is great. When people decided and the people in power have to convince them they are all participating. This stage took place in all european countries centuries ago. Some did better than others. In UK, the king lived and in france they hanged him because he didn't think people's opinion mattered much. But you see, once you arrive to this democracy, you have to keep it. That's why you create all sorts of institutions that really don't give any power to the people. Yes, in US, people have general human rights. But do they decide as PEOPLE if they should go to war? Oh that's right, the senate makes the decision? Oh, the President I mean. The majority of US is against the war, yet you are in war. Democracy at work? I don't think so guys. Think about it. You don't decide anything that's key to your security if you live in 'old' democracy. In fact, Liberalism and Democracy are now totally separate things and I suppose Liberalism is something higher than Democracy. Liberals are scorned at in many countries... ;)

Oh ignorance is bliss.

I suppose you learned about Democracy from this guy:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article131469.html?var_recherche=Leonid+Ivashov?va r_recherche=Leonid%20Ivashov
http://www.voltairenet.org/article133909.html?var_recherche=Leonid+Ivashov?va r_recherche=Leonid%20Ivashov

You speak of "liberalism", I suppose you're talking about the General's liberators, heroes of the oppressed masses, who will replace the American Imperialism by the Shangai Organization. Russia, China, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Cazakistan and Quirguistan ruling the civilized world, civilization itself thrives in these regions doesn't it, you reminded how the Russians were the most civilized people since before the end of the Roman Empire, you are in fine tune with the General.

Why does Anatoly Golitsyn comes to mind? "New Lies For Old: The Communist Strategy of Deception and Disinformation (Dodd, Mead & Company, 1984)".

What about Stanislav Lunev? "Through the Eyes of the Enemy (Washington, Regnery 1998)".

Jeffrey R. Nyquist, Constantine C. Menges, Jack Wheeler, and whoever else was declared nuts back then, conspiracy theorists. So far their theories have been far more proven than the idea that George W. Bush commited the 9/11 attack and invented global terrorism to dominate the world, but divergence is scorned at in Russia isn't it? He who dares to oppose the General inside Russia, rise!

[Type941]

yeah yeah, you still never answered the qustion though I asked in the bit you qouted me. :roll: I'm right in saying you have little power these days in terms of determining where your counrty goes in future. In fact, you have very little power. The US is the strongest example of that. The Media and instutions are used to control the public opinion. Even americans agree on that. The media has long never questioned seriously the validity of war and noone really is responsible there before the people. there seem to be some 'political' trials here and there, but n any case, such huge country as US can not be successful and fully democratic at the same time. And the fanaticism of americans screaming they are democratic at the top of their lungs further confirms that the US is the the most Free country in the world. Free from Democracy. :-?

It's classic case of Roman Empire.

[Grom]

You speak of "liberalism", I suppose you're talking about the General's liberators, heroes of the oppressed masses, who will replace the American Imperialism by the Shangai Organization. Russia, China, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Cazakistan and Quirguistan ruling the civilized world, civilization itself thrives in these regions doesn't it, you reminded how the Russians were the most civilized people since before the end of the Roman Empire, you are in fine tune with the General.

I am with You.
The Polish Kingdom? And we are arrogant?

The answere is:
Yes. Looks like You are. Look for Your new enemies, try to find new US/UK agents inside of great and powerfull Russia. And speak about democracy with gulags.

[Kapitan]

Yes. Looks like You are. Look for Your new enemies, try to find new US/UK agents inside of great and powerfull Russia. And speak about democracy with gulags.

Did you know britian had similar "Gulag" camps in Kenya ?

[Type941]

A Polish Kingdom?

[STEED]

Yes. Looks like You are. Look for Your new enemies, try to find new US/UK agents inside of great and powerfull Russia. And speak about democracy with gulags.

Did you know britian had similar "Gulag" camps in Kenya ?


The British invented the Concentration camp during the Boer war 1899-1902 and that is part of my history sickening to think that system would be perfected years latter by the Nazis.
:nope: :nope:

[Takeda Shingen]

The British invented the Concentration camp during the Boer war 1899-1902 and that is part of my history sickening to think that system would be perfected years latter by the Nazis.
:nope: :nope:

Yes, but were those camps really any worse than the conditions found in the transport and forced work of the Africans in the American south? Our nations all have dirty, dirty hands.

[TteFAboB]

yeah yeah, you still never answered the qustion though I asked in the bit you qouted me. :roll: I'm right in saying you have little power these days in terms of determining where your counrty goes in future. In fact, you have very little power. The US is the strongest example of that. The Media and instutions are used to control the public opinion. Even americans agree on that. The media has long never questioned seriously the validity of war and noone really is responsible there before the people. there seem to be some 'political' trials here and there, but n any case, such huge country as US can not be successful and fully democratic at the same time. And the fanaticism of americans screaming they are democratic at the top of their lungs further confirms that the US is the the most Free country in the world. Free from Democracy. :-?

It's classic case of Roman Empire.

The media was exposed by the public, the old journalist sharks have been humiliated by bloggers and the people itself, they have fallen by the hands of the people, the media is weaker than the people and the US is the greatest example of that, you say the media never questioned the validity of war, you probably never heard of Michael Moore, but I agree with you, his job is pathetic, he tries but he's not any good at it. But there's better questioning all around, I don't know what your standards are, what I consider as questioning may not be questioning to you, I'll have some fun and take the opportunity you placed media questioning and being responsable before the public in one sentence: I suppose the New York Times should question Donald Rumsfeld declaring he is a traitor and if he got hanged it would be considered a proper media questioning and someone taking responsability before their people.

You also consider the number of "political" trials to be low, don't we face an inevitable comparison here? For your standards, the US will always have a low level of "political" trials, enemies of the regime are free to walk around influencing the public with their media and not taking responsability before their people.

I don't get the fanatism part, Fidel Castro screams from the top of his old lungs that Cuba is the most democratic nation in the world and half the Cubans follow along, you have your own vision of what a Democracy is like Fidel Castro, when I posted those two links to the General, I was pointing to the reason as to why I believe you speak what you speak. There is no effect of comparison.

This certain "Democracy" is associated with the USA, but it's not the real democracy, like everything else it's fake, and for Russians to fight against America there must be also a fight against American democracy, hence your ideas about Democracy, America and Russia.

It doesn't matter what any American scream from the top of his lungs, it's all an invention to take over the world.

It's a classic case of the ant against the Roman Empire.

[Type941]

you do know what happened to the roman empire, right?

Ants? The ants all over the world think that USA is one single country that creates the most bad influence around the world. US starts wars, bombs countries, exploits foreing institutions to achieve its aims (it broke the back of UN long time ago, and NATO is a puppet to it as well - hey, they pay for it, so why can't they use it in any way they like!).

Here's the thing. This is never gonna be questioned, or debated until the proverbial hits the fan in the US itself on a massive scale. And I am referring to something much less dramatic than red terror alert thing. Economic downfall is what the US is cooking up for itself (it's not my view btw, so please don't start debating me on it). When the regular Joe and Susy will have problems paying the bills (many do already) they'll realise that they don't give a flying f*ck about freedom in Iraq (it rhymes...). And that's when the US would have to either roll back, or start another war (more likely). It's a trap it dig for itself, or the government. Hey, it's the choice they made. Divide and conquer. Roman Empire indeed. Have the people been asked about this? Give me a break.

.....

About Michael Moore.. Eh.. DUH. Of course I know about MMore. I hope you watch his movie, beacuase if you did, you'll realise all he is saying is that the war should take place in Saudi Arabia, not in Iraq. You want a war in Saudi Arabia? Ah, whatever man.

---

I don't comment on the link to some general, because some stuff he says is just nonsense. But make no doubt it about - US government does not want strong economic Russia. Why would that be, huh? Bi-polar world is so bad when you are the only one making decisions in it. Sad to say, what US has done in Middle East is likely ended Israel as state, because it equated Israel and US in the eyes of Arabs and US must stay there or let Israel dissapear. Because that what will happen if US leaves, and Israel would have to nuke the neighbours. It's a problem all right. And US doesn't need Russia's traditional cooperation with arabs here.

And all because they wanted oil. Cliche but oh so true.

[The Avon Lady]

The British invented the Concentration camp during the Boer war 1899-1902 and that is part of my history sickening to think that system would be perfected years latter by the Nazis.
:nope: :nope:
So, no differences then? :hmm:

You are stuck on semantics. :yep:

[TteFAboB]

The world is not filled only with anti-american Ants, there are ant-eating Birds out there feasting on them too.

The US has been through more economical crisis than we can count on both our hands, it survived all of them and became even stronger after each, some crisis are waiting to happen, others are sure to come in the future, but problems are not a problem if you can solve them, and you have no faith in the American ability to overcome their problems, you think all it takes is the next crisis to destroy the American economy, why don't we wait and see?

[Kapitan]

American economy isnt fairing to well as of late as i recall the dow jones has been plumeting like a stone went down 53.82 points), while FTSE100 went up 26.35 points.

Making the $ to £ higher today £1 is $1.88 the higest its been in months but now that is becoming average to see $1.86 to the £1

[JSLTIGER]

The American economy has not been in such a dire situation since the late 1920's. Americans are spending every penny that they have as soon as they get it, with more than 50% of the populace living paycheck to paycheck, savings are at their lowest levels since just before the Great Depression. The US is producing less and less and relying on services more and more. Our trade deficits are massive, already unsustainable, and only growing. The budget deficit brought on by the war is continuing to grow, and yet the POTUS continues to ask for more funding for current programs and the creation of new ones.

The only reason that Americans have been able to support an economy of the current scale is by tapping into the vast savings created by the lack of consumer products available in World War II. The demand and boom of the 1950s-1970s all resulted from Americans tapping into their savings to buy new goods. When these savings are finally depleted in full and the other nations of the world stop funding our debt, America will be in for a massive economic slide, the likes of which haven't been seen since 1929.

[Type941]

Agree with you JS.

Don't fall into trap and call me anti american and waiting for the next crisis. Again, I repeat for the deaf that it's a fact that the US economy is in very bad situation. It's too big to collapse in one day. But it will happen over time. Some analysts are predicting a collapse of Dollar bubble (dot com collapsed, we need the real estate to burst as well) as early as middle of this year. While I think it's too far fetched, I did write a thesis on the matter for my BA degree and in my view it will happen gradually, as dollar will be displaced as world currency by either multitude of other currencies, or the euro. Given EU is in small crisis, it slowed down the fall of the dollar but China is lurking around as well.

If you live in US and you can't live 2 weeks without a paycheck, you are in a little trouble. But the worst thing thousands of people are like that in the US - leveraged to the roof.

Kapitan - stocks falling or rising really says nothing unless you know the reason. For instance, the OMX in Baltics fell most since russian crisis of 98 last week, though it was mainly due to some profit taking by the scandinavians, and institutional sellers. So no real crisis, just an episode. However, the US economy is growing very slowly.

At some point there will come a time when we (europe) might not give you (america) credit anymore and that's when you have to be careful.

[Kapitan]

I studied buisness for 5 years mainly studying finace, part of our corse was the economys of the world, now im comparison in 1970 the average was $1.58 to £1 in the 1980's average was $1.61 to £1 and now in 2005 the average was $1.80 to £1 and today its raised yet again to an average of $1.82 to £1.

At that increase it will be only another 1 to 20 years beofre america looses its grip and the economy starts to fail, its getting there now according to experts in tokyo london and new york.

a collapse may be closer and is in fact predicted for not that far in the future.

[TteFAboB]

Don't fall into trap and call me anti american and waiting for the next crisis. Again, I repeat for the deaf that it's a fact that the US economy is in very bad situation.

Deaf? What are you a machine? A computer? You can make calculations just like a monkey can fit the right key through the key-hole by trial and error, you want to predict the future of the global economy but you cannot understand the principles of a Democracy, which is a derivation of Liberalism and the free market, so yes you do need to wait for a crisis to happen otherwise your professor will discover you fooled him to get your BA grade.

Hey, it's the choice they made. Divide and conquer. Roman Empire indeed. Have the people been asked about this? Give me a break.

"The worst alliance a leader can make is the one with the streets. Talking directly to the masses and with them agree to govern setting aside the institutions, it's the classical detour that led societies to despotism in several historical periods, from Ancient Rome to Nazi Germany."

"The proof of the Holy nature of the Church is its permanency in spite of the Priest's sins."

At some point there will come a time when we (europe) might not give you (america) credit anymore and that's when you have to be careful.

I could make a joke from this such as: Don't worry, we (me) will always give credit to you (you) and that's why you have to be careful. But it would be far too pretentious of me to put us in opposing poles, definitely not where thought is concerned.

[Takeda Shingen]

a collapse may be closer and is in fact predicted for not that far in the future.

En economic collapse? As in failing banks, falling commodity prices, rapidly devaluing currency, plummeting stock prices, a 25%+ unemployment rate and out of control interest rates? Probably not. I think you are talking about a mild to moderate recession.

[Kapitan]

Yes takheda that is what i mean, devaluing currency which later on can cause economical collapse.

One part of my course was to do this.

Analyse and evaluate the economic state of three countrys use past history and current day statistics and show how you come to your conclusion.
Then hypothisize those countrys future in 50 years time using the past data to show your findings and your prediction.

now i didnt do it on America but i done that on Germany Britian and Canada, and i found basicaly this

Britain was correct so far i predicted the economy would slump some what but then pick up again.

Germany was sort of correct i did predict that it would only slightly pick up, however it picked up faster than i though.

And canada i got wrong, and thats only due to the recent discoverys they have been making.

As for america i predict this;

America will be stable for at least another 60 years with ressesions but overly will be stable despite the fall in value of thier currency.
But should america keep going to war i also would say thier currentcy by 2020 will be around $2.00 to £1 which is atleast 20% higher than it is already.

But thats just a prediction its like the weather some times it is wrong

[Takeda Shingen]

You're still talking about a recession, Kahpitain. Economic collapse is different.

[Kapitan]

a ressesion is a decline economic collapse is well total

ressesion includes currency

[Takeda Shingen]

ressesion includes currency

Does it? Gee whiz.

Sarcasm aside, the type of devaluation and super inflation infered in the term economic collapse will undoubtebly prove to be far from the case. I will say that it is highly unlikely that we will find the US to be a third world nation in 50 years, where stacks of worthless dollars will be needed to purchase a loaf of bread.

[Type941]

To TteFAboB, the lover of Democracy with a capital D - why don't you go to Iraq and support it, if you are so bloody righteous and believing. I wouldn't go because I think it's sad what the US is doing there, but if you are so fond of Democracy, and belive in the sainthood of the leaders claiming they are protecting it in Iraq - gotta go man... Otherwise all your speech is just that. :|\

Oh, and I don't get your qoutes too much, and the part about the joke which you didn't make is just not spot on anything. I say Europe is the one financing american debt (which is the truth), and you say ... ? I can't even figure it out!

BTW, please don't opine on finance if you get your business news from CNN moneyline or whatnot. Please.

Anyway, TFB, I don't really see what exactly is your point, you keep screaming something about democracy, few dubious qoutes, but not really looks like you have any view or any response to what has been said. I've seen a response like yours so many times that I get bored half way through reading it. Sorry. Same song, same denial about the truth.

[JSLTIGER]

As for america i predict this;

America will be stable for at least another 60 years with ressesions but overly will be stable despite the fall in value of thier currency.
But should america keep going to war i also would say thier currentcy by 2020 will be around $2.00 to £1 which is atleast 20% higher than it is already.

Personally, I don't even think America can make it for another 60 years. Most of the American economy relies on cheap oil. As we get closer to the end of the world's oil supplies (predicted to be anywhere from 2031-2066), the American economy will become increasingly disrupted by the ever-increasing costs of energy. The only potential way to avoid this is for America to get its head out of its ::expletive:: and give up the gasoline-based internal combustion engine and fossil fuel based energy.

In my opinion, the most promising technology is the Generation IV nuclear reactor. Moderated by liquid lead instead of water, it has the advantages of producing Hydrogen (which can be reclaimed for use in fuel cells), and running at 1 ATM pressure instead of the 350 ATM typically used in today's water moderated Generation II and III reactors. When combined with breeder reactors which produce more fissile fuel than is used (currently outlawed in the US, unfortunately), we can stretch our supply of fission-able material from 60 to 500+ years. That should give us enough time to come up with a suitable alternative (i.e. fusion) before we run out of energy entirely.

P.S. 700th Post

[Kapitan]

I will say that it is highly unlikely that we will find the US to be a third world nation in 50 years, where stacks of worthless dollars will be needed to purchase a loaf of bread

NO WRONG STOP!

I NEVER SAID THAT AT ALL PERIOD.

what i said was the value of currency will go down now i dont think that in 50 years america will be 3rd world in fact i dont think that in 300 years america will be 3rd world but the currency wont be as strong.

[Type941]

I don't know, but I think Kapitan by collapse, means a default on debt.

[Takeda Shingen]

No, Kapitain, you did say that. You said economic collapse, ie Germany in the 1920's, the United States in the early 1930's. That's what an economic collapse is, and that is what I have been trying to tell you. You mean recession.

[JSLTIGER]

I will say that it is highly unlikely that we will find the US to be a third world nation in 50 years, where stacks of worthless dollars will be needed to purchase a loaf of bread

NO WRONG STOP!

I NEVER SAID THAT AT ALL PERIOD.

what i said was the value of currency will go down now i dont think that in 50 years america will be 3rd world in fact i dont think that in 300 years america will be 3rd world but the currency wont be as strong.


What all of this boils down to is the question as to whether or not the dollar can maintain its near-universality. The answer, and here I agree with Kapitain, probably not.

[Takeda Shingen]

What all of this boils down to is the question as to whether or not the dollar can maintain its near-universality. The answer, and here I agree with Kapitain, probably not.

That, I agree with. However, that is not what Kapitain said.

[Kapitan]

wall street journal, finacial times (both online), Bloomberg which all are dedicated stick and share news papers / programmes

[Takeda Shingen]

wall street journal, finacial times (both online), Bloomberg which all are dedicated stick and share news papers / programmes

I am not sure what you are getting at. If it is that you have seen the term economic collapse used to describe the US's economic state, then I will tell you that they are misusing the term as well.

Once again, our old friendly axiom surfaces: Not everything said in print or news media or publication is absolutely correct and true.

[TteFAboB]

Dig, dig, dig, you find what you seek, it's the case with our Type941 friend:

And Russia is still being waged war upon it by the west, and the same war that it has been losing for years - the information war. Say anything bad about Russia (the gas pipe explosion) and people believe it. Anything good, or decent - and people think it's a lie. It's been like that for some time, and always will be probably till some huge global war that will not be an information one (russia usually can fight there pretty good, as opposed to PR). The fact that many people today already believe that it was the US that won the WW2 is perhaps the best example how russia lost this information war. Never mind the fact it lost half of all casualties (those are now dismissed as Stalin's own purges).

Are the brits spying? If I can put a bet on that, I'd put the house on it. Of course they are. Always have been. All I hope is that Russia is spying in UK as well, that's about the only way they can go about it really (another way you can do it, is spy on your own people, but let's leave that to the leader of the free world, the beloved by some here Bush!).

The gas pipe though - that's just hillareous - I'm totally amazed how the rest of the world is actually listening to what that large glovepuppet Saakashvili is saying (you should hear his interview to Reuters - you'd never think it's a country leader talking...)

A nice youch of victimization, a clichè hit on Bush and the "free world", and a surprise in the end, which is surprising, for a seer.

ah, the russian hater Happy Times. What good are you for a non-biased discussion?

Oh my, look who's talking!

Yeah, it's been much more than 70 years that the west hates russia and all that land.

It dates back to roman empire really - a disgusting, barbaric nation that was decayed to the core (ROME) with its gladiatorial games, it's bare arse army and absolutely corrupt government. It was beaten by these 'barbarians'. That's when it all started really. the 'holy roman empire' and the split with the east, all that great stuff. It wouldn't hurt to know that before the mongol invasion, Kiev Russ was known as land of cities, and many monastries in russia were producers of all sorts of weaponry for the western europe (gun powder units). It also wouldn't hurt to know that Ivan the Terrible was not the monster he's portrayed but actually introduced these to russia (before the well known Peter the Great legends tell us):
- introduced the jury to the court system
- free elementary education (in churches and monasteries)
- medical quarantine on borders
- first regular russian army and one of the first war uniform in the world (Strelec)
- stopped the tatar skirmishes for good
- made the society more or less equal (there was no tie to land in the sense it existed in europe at the time where - and peasant's children were free to do what they want)
- forbid slavery work
- expanded country's territory in 30 times
- had a few 1000 percent growth in wealth of population
- noone was killed without trial and the number of actually 'repressed' was about 5000 people

This is 1500s by the way...

all of those are documented in many sources, i'm just not putting them down as the word 'Sudebnik Ivano Groznogo' would tell jack to majority here.

And now here's the fun part - you won't believe any of this just because you don't think it's possible and you still treat russia as this dumb, naive, drunk nation of beggars and theives, ruled by a spy dictator. That bit about Ivan the terrible is one of the things people aren't familiar with - to many, his just a moron who went mad and slaughtered thousands of his own people (must be the name!).

So, the Roman Empire, the new one which is even worse than the old one, defeated the glorious Russia, the old one, the room is open for hate or envy, and as Master Yoda taught us, both of these lead to blindness, not good for a seer.

Have fun with the history. Have at least an open mind, otherwise you'll end up hating everyone who dares to say differently (like Happy Times = an ironic nickname really).

Look who's talking again.

NGOs (one of which involved in the scandal is Moscow Helsinki Group.. )... Well, Britain will shut up about those now, that's why this scandal is coming out now. Britain criticized russia for it - and now Russia shows Britain sponsoring these that potentially are against the russian government. Democracy is fantastic for the stupid oppressed people because it's very easy to wave infront of them and convince them that life will get better. Just doesn't work that way. Look at Georgia with an idiot for a leader, and Ukraine with a guy whose wife is american - what kind of country loyalty can he hace? He didn't even dare to get out yesterday to that same square where he was elected president 1 year ago - the people might get 'angry'.

Back there he was talking about having an open mind, but he defines Democracy according to the political situation in Georgia and Ukraine! And because the Ukranian wife is American, she will probably work against the nation, as any reasonable American should and would do!

Let me tell you about Georgia and Ukraine!

Terroist (criminals, whatever) blow up a pipelines to georgia. Beyond repair. georgia's first response "Nothing else comes to my head, must have been the russians doing it on purpose". Read to what this 30+ year old Saakvashvili is saying. So now, the workers fixing the pipelines have to go into this -20C cold, and start fixing the pipelines (russians) just so georgia doesn't freeze. Yesterday, some petty officier is ordering the gas supply to russian embasy stopped because "those little people are probably responsible for this anyway - I'm sure they'll have other means of getting the power". Meanwhile, Ukraine, who already STOLE quite a lot of gas from supplies to Europe, is deciding to give AID to georgia that's freezing up. Ukraine, that claims to have no gas of its own and is struggling due to colds week ago, is giving RUSSIAN gas away for free to georgia as a type of humanitarian aid. How nice. I don't know, but I believe sh*t like that will lead to a full war at some point if the puppets in Ukraine and Georgia don't stop. Meanwhile, countries like Hungary have to start thinking of getting gas from alternative places, like Afrika. Sure, it's far away and expensive, but at least theres no Ukraine in the middle.

Current Georgia and Ukraine governments are the ones elected on utter unpopularity of an alternative regime. Their ONLY way to consolidate people is to create an outside enemy and blame them for everything, from lack of tangerines on the hillside to the color of milk their cows are giving. This outside enemy is Russia. And there's only ONE country that benefits from this instability - the USA. Because for planning a war on IRAN, USA needs the bases at some point in the caucases. Azerbaidzhan and Georgia sound qutie good. Russia on the other hand is totally isolated. To be honest, I'm am completely stunned that Russia isn't actually changing to direct confrontation with these puppet regimes and doesn't take them out like the US does. For russia, saakashvili is same as Castro for US. I don't see them staying in power much longer, because first and foremost thanks to them their people are now freezing. Georgia freely supports tchechen terrorists in Pankiss canyon where they can rest and get some supplies of humans and weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if Georgia will initiate a war confilict with Russia hoping for bakcing of the west (over Sukhumi) and this can get ulgy fast. But I doubt US will want to start miliatry conflict directly against russia over a georgia. but if anyone has some doubt if US is hostile to russia, wake up. the government of the US has always had the goal of destabilizing russia and never allowing it to be a superpower. This time around russia is riding a strong economy and getting stronger every day, and that worries the hell of US.

He may think I am deaf but he's completely BLIND! Can't he see this is EXACTLY the case? He blames the USA for everything! The USA is the greater enemy, danger and target!

Yes, see, that's exactly my point. You just haven't got a clue why the gas was cut in ukraine, and don't even bother to question the motives behind BLOWING UP their own gaslines to Georgia (beyond repair, I might add). I'm sorry, but it's so difficult to speak with an opponent who ignores reality. Again, look it: Ukraine was deprived of gas because it DEMANDED to be supplied gas under prices that are 5 times less than those which go to EU. Georgia is just georgia, the president is 'samodur' (look it up in russian, I can't translate, basically a self-induced-idiot but hard to explain it correctly) and that's all.

Russia didn't cut gas - GAZPROM did. Putin's not in charge of it. Gazprom is a business that didnt' want to lose money. Ukraine made it political, UKRAINE. And I believe the next gas crisis will be the end of Yucsenko as a president.

It's so difficult to speak with an opponent who ignores reality, isn't it?

Regarding the East West - I'm not reaching back for no reason. The East West division never existed until the break up of Roman empire, and thanks to THE CHURCH, we have what we have. It's all about the myths that the "west" created about the east - an uncivilized, barbaric, pagan. Rings a bell? Guess what, the east was so much more developed during the Roman times, that it's given credit to. For one, its army was not a bunch of bare arse legioneers, but more like covered in armour cataphracts.

history has been rewritten many many times. To happy times.

I'm not saying russia is all saint. Russia's life under tatar mongol invasion IMO destroyed so much of it. Not only the economy, but the whole culture that existed before it. Ever since the 300 year invasion, russia took over and intergrated so much of barbaric (truly) mongols. pretty much all of our swear language now is derived from tatar mongol. It's very barking like, very offensive. Story goes the first time mongols 'visited' russia and fought the 'varjags' (vikings basically) that were enjoying ruling status in the Russ, there was a fight. A big fight, where the russians lost. So they surrendered. They assumed as always, they'd be allowed to go back as noblemen, and so on. But now - the tatars took all of them, put them on the ground, and DANCED on them for hours celebrating their win. Obviously they all died. So all of a sudden a very civilized nation was turned on its head by a very brutal mongol invader. With time, russians took over so much of their brash, brutal ways that they became a part of us forever (unfortunately). Things, such as lack of any respect by the rulers towards its people. That's why in Russia for centuries, the government never felt responsible before its own people. That sh*t is centuries old, not just communism induced. That's how we are - our own unique civilization developed in that manner. The biggest tragedy was this mongol invasion that was nothing like any other invasion. It was many generations long, the became part of russia. Later one, when Russia changed this domination (Ivan the Terrible), the mongol elite horse archers were used in the russian army as key task forces. they were integrated basicaly, and now we don't have any sort of hatred to mongols as Estonia has towards germans and russians for example.

The east/west division is mainly thanks to the church though, and indeed it goes a looong way back.

Again, a greater enemy destroyed the glorious Russia, the Mongols, there must be always an external enemy, the US suits this role perfectly.

I'll gladly reply to your post G. in full, but a bit later. One thing that struck me now is you believe honestly that government in Ukraina is democratic. Which is a mojore mistake. It's just another corrupt coalition (that fell apart btw) that's taken over the old one. Son of Yuchenko is driving around in cars that cost half a million euro, use cellphones that cost 40000 dollars, and live in very shady apartments registered to unknown parties. When confronted with all of this (how is it possible for such poor nation to have such well funded life of sons president) the answer was typical 'let's focus on real issues, he's a good boy, that's all' blah. Reality? Yushenko is as corrupt as anyone else over there, he's a part of former government that he replaced, what more do you want to know! If you think he's some white sheep - wake up mate. He's just got 1 way to stay in power - blame russia for everything, because it drives SOME part of his country. But not the western part that is totally pro russian... You have to realize, that Russian and Ukranian people's closeness is not a made up thing. It's a fact - our nations are very closely related so for Russia to be having an interest in Ukraine is perfectly natural, and not so many oppose this as CNN would have you belief. My grandmother is ukranian for example. It's the Ukranian governent that's trying to present this as national issue. Matter of the fact it that Yushenko is a puppet of the US and that's the full stop.

See? From there on is where we started.

So, I think this clearly shows Type941 is anti-american, when he speaks of the USA as the ancient Roman Empire and gives the empire all those negative adjectives while glorifying ancient Russia. He is anti-american because he believes the US must go down for Russia to grow and control its neighbors, and because Democracy is associated with the US he must be anti-democracy by auto-pilot too. Anti-american neo-sophist apologist of hidden intentions, probably the hope for the rise of a new soviet union.

[Kapitan]

even if it comes directly from the stock exchange?

That's what an economic collapse is, and that is what I have been trying to tell you. You mean recession.

Yes recession,

now collapse can happen to any country at any time regardless of savings debt or what not, you could wake up tommorrow and find america has become the weakest country in the world (NOTE ; VERY VERY HIGHLY UNLIKELY)

[Takeda Shingen]

even if it comes directly from the stock exchange?

Yes. The leadership at the NYSE has always had quite a flair for the dramatic.

[Kapitan]

NYSE i know :o FTSE and dow jones are ok in fact FTSE100 is straight

[TteFAboB]

To TteFAboB, the lover of Democracy with a capital D - why don't you go to Iraq and support it, if you are so bloody righteous and believing. I wouldn't go because I think it's sad what the US is doing there, but if you are so fond of Democracy, and belive in the sainthood of the leaders claiming they are protecting it in Iraq - gotta go man... Otherwise all your speech is just that.

Oh, and I don't get your qoutes too much, and the part about the joke which you didn't make is just not spot on anything. I say Europe is the one financing american debt (which is the truth), and you say ... ? I can't even figure it out!

BTW, please don't opine on finance if you get your business news from CNN moneyline or whatnot. Please.

Anyway, TFB, I don't really see what exactly is your point, you keep screaming something about democracy, few dubious qoutes, but not really looks like you have any view or any response to what has been said. I've seen a response like yours so many times that I get bored half way through reading it. Sorry. Same song, same denial about the truth

Re-evaluate your quotes on my post above and look for yourself who lives in denial, I'd support Democracy in Iraq anytime.

I didn't commented any of you "financial" opinions exactly because of the joke I didn't made, wait, are you talking about the "economy" or only about "finance"?

You questions have no answer:

I'm right in saying you have little power these days in terms of determining where your counrty goes in future. In fact, you have very little power. The US is the strongest example of that. The Media and instutions are used to control the public opinion. Even americans agree on that. The media has long never questioned seriously the validity of war and noone really is responsible there before the people. there seem to be some 'political' trials here and there, but n any case, such huge country as US can not be successful and fully democratic at the same time. And the fanaticism of americans screaming they are democratic at the top of their lungs further confirms that the US is the the most Free country in the world. Free from Democracy.

It's classic case of Roman Empire.

What is this?! Romans spread their citizenship and brought in slaves, Americans refuse to hand out citizenship and want the flow of immigrants to remain under control, Romans conquered and transformed the land to what they needed or wanted, Americans import from foreign lands, your comparison is an intellectual fraud.

Am I supposed to give you a lesson on Democracy? That's not something you'll learn from me now, your idea of popular power is far less democratic, you see the institutions as detriments and direct democracy as true power, you got it on reverse, the latter cannot even exist without the first, which is a proof of how much authority you have to speak of the state of Democracy in the US as you've repeatedly done before: none.

That's my point.