Excited/ dissapointed it will be PTO?

[Highbury]

I know alot of you guys are happy about SHIV being a Pacific Sim, but I was just wondering if I am alone in my views.

I have read alot about the sub operations in the Pacific to keep my history well rounded but it has never intrigued me or fascinated me in the was that the U-boat war in the atlantic did. I really don't have a bunch of technical reasons why. I am Americans will find it more appealing then I do.

Lets face it, sub SIMS are a niche market because honestly, between engagements there is not alot to do and most ppl who are not there for the subject matter will be bored by it's gaming value. PTO does not interest me so on this title I would be in the latter position.

Maybe if there is a SHV they will head back to the atlantic on it......

For those of you who DO want a Pacific sim and have been waiting for it, I do know what that is like. Gratz on seeing light at the end of the tunnel and hope it scratches your PTO itch. :D

[Hammar]

Im sharing you'r feelings. I would more like to se the Pacific missions in a Patch or like a bonus chapiter after u done the org. "chapiters".

//Over and out.

[Sailor Steve]

If it's an all-new game with an all-new engine, then I see no reason not to do another U-boat sim. If, however, as seems likely, it's going to have the same engine and style as SHIII, then why walk over the same ground? The original Silent Hunter was based in the Pacific, and it's still popular today, so there is definitely a market for it.

We already have SHIII, and it's wonderful. I don't see a completely new design worthy of starting another U-boat sim coming out within another five years. Then we can start over in the Atlantic again.

[Highbury]

Don't see the point? :roll:

SHIV will (most likely) be an improvement over SHIII in many ways. For those ppl who do not like the idea of a Pacific Sim it will be frustrating to see things that could make a game we like better, being put into a theater that we simply don't have any interest in.

Yes I know there is a market for it, believe I mentioned the ppl who had been waiting for this type of thing and repectfully said that I was happy for them.

You have to respect that there are ppl who have no interest in a PTO sim and for us any advances in the genre are wasted because we will always find the subject boring.

Dress it up however you like, list any possible feature, hell even impossible ones.. and I would still have no interest in Captaining an American U-Boat.

Forums are for opinions, this is just mine.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yes, everyone has an opinion. Mine is that a return to the Pacific is long overdue. Besides, maybe the Atlantic could be taken care of in a patch or expansion once the primary game is completed.

[Highbury]

Yes, everyone has an opinion. Mine is that a return to the Pacific is long overdue. Besides, maybe the Atlantic could be taken care of in a patch or expansion once the primary game is completed.

That would be very welcome indeed. But since what you suggest would basically be a whole new game on the SHIV engine I doubt it would be implemented in a patch. An expansion pack is the best we could hope for.

An expansion that adds a new theater the co-exists with the original is not too far fetched from ubi as players of IL-2FB/AEP/PF know. (But that may have been more of a 1c Maddox influence then ubi.)

[aanker]

.... The original Silent Hunter was based in the Pacific, and it's still popular today, so there is definitely a market for it.

We already have SHIII, and it's wonderful. I don't see a completely new design worthy of starting another U-boat sim coming out within another five years. Then we can start over in the Atlantic again.
Hi Sailor Steve, SH I is still popular today for those who can run this great DOS sub sim on XP. I can't count the number of people I have tried to help install it on XP with no success because of their graphics card or whatever.

I hope that UBI does work out the SH III bugs and creates the long overdue Pacific Theatre keeping in the tradition of SSI's SH I for those of us who have waited for it for years.

Art Anker

[Torplexed]

Yeah...I know the PTO is a disappointment for those who favor the more intense Atlantic battles. Does seem overdue though.The original Silent Hunter came out in 1996 and there have been no Pacific War subsims since with exception of the Pacific Aces mod. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing a game set in the Mediterranean with British subs but that'll probably have to wait for some really intrepid software company out there.

[finchOU]

I am an American and I have to say that I still have more interest in the Atlantic than the PTO. I think this stems from the fact that I want a completed SH3 vise a SH4 PTO. I do have interest in PTO though..and would like to see that...but after SH3 gets a facelift and is completed.

If SH4 ends up being SH3 in the PTO...with little or no "BIG" changes...then im afraid UBI will have lost me as a customer. I think it would be sad that they would get away with that kind of poor showing...IMHO.

[Harry Buttle]

You have to respect that there are ppl who have no interest in a PTO sim and for us any advances in the genre are wasted because we will always find the subject boring.

Dress it up however you like, list any possible feature, hell even impossible ones.. and I would still have no interest in Captaining an American U-Boat.

Forums are for opinions, this is just mine.

I guess the point here is "do you have a point?"

There will always be people who aren't interested in the product/subject (close on 6.5 billion of them to be honest), Ubi are betting that more people will pay for a fresh perspective on a previously popular subject (submarine Pac war) rather than an immediate rehash of the atlantic war.

Lets be honest, if Ubi announced that SH IV was going to be the atlantic, half the people on these forums would refuse to buy it, because they just bought it and are not going to pay for an "overpriced patch to a product that should have worked right when they bought it".

If they do the Brits med, it has to be an add on to an existing game, as the market for full priced UK/Italy Submarine sims seriously defines 'niche product'.

So I guess I'd ask, why bother coming to a SH IV forum and telling us you have no interest in the product/subject? do you think we care? what do you hope to achieve? do you do this on every other forum that is for a product/subject that is of no interest to you?

I'm not being insulting - I'm really quite interested.

[Ducimus]

Dress it up however you like, list any possible feature, hell even impossible ones.. and I would still have no interest in Captaining an American U-Boat.

Forums are for opinions, this is just mine.

*reads between the lines*

Umm hmmm.

[Type XXIII]

Being less seasoned than most of the community (my subsim experiences only stretch back to discovering SHII in 2004,) I have never played a Pacific simulation and think it will be interesting to commandeer an American sub.

Anyway, I'm expecting that within months of SHIV's release, someone will release a U-boat mod based on the Atlantic, probably porting material from SHIII.

[Sailor Steve]

There are always people who do and people who don't. I personally really want a new Pacific sub sim, and while I understand the ones who don't I would really appreciate it if you would try to understand my feelings as well.

Where would we be now if half of us had said "We don't want another U-boat game!" two years ago?

[Captain Krunch]

SHIV will (most likely) be an improvement over SHIII in many ways. For those ppl who do not like the idea of a Pacific Sim it will be frustrating to see things that could make a game we like better, being put into a theater that we simply don't have any interest in.

You have to respect that there are ppl who have no interest in a PTO sim and for us any advances in the genre are wasted because we will always find the subject boring.

You do realize you can spin this back the other way, right? Here's how I would say things:

SHII & SHIII will (most likely) be an improvement over SHI in many ways. For those ppl who do not like the idea of an Atlantic Sim it will be frustrating to see things that could make a game we like better, being put into a theater that we simply don't have any interest in. You have to respect that there are ppl who have no interest in a ATO sim and for us any advances in the genre are wasted because we will always find the subject boring.

This is no more wrong than what you say above.

At least you have had the chance to play *two* games set in the Atlantic over the last decade; why can't you let Pacific fans have some fun for a change?

[Dogsbd]

For those ppl who do not like the idea of a Pacific Sim it will be frustrating to see things that could make a game we like better, being put into a theater that we simply don't have any interest in.


Like the frustration I have lived with since 1997 with TWO Atlantic sub sims being produced and ZERO PTO sub sims being produced?

Sorry, I can't have any sympathy for anyone whinning for yet another Uboat sim.

[Dogsbd]

Hi Sailor Steve, SH I is still popular today for those who can run this great DOS sub sim on XP. I can't count the number of people I have tried to help install it on XP with no success because of their graphics card or whatever.


It really isn't worth the effort to get SH running on XP when you can easily find DOS PC's at thrift stores etc. for $20.

[Apocal]

SHIV will (most likely) be an improvement over SHIII in many ways. For those ppl who do not like the idea of a Pacific Sim it will be frustrating to see things that could make a game we like better, being put into a theater that we simply don't have any interest in.

You have to respect that there are ppl who have no interest in a PTO sim and for us any advances in the genre are wasted because we will always find the subject boring.

You do realize you can spin this back the other way, right? Here's how I would say things:

SHII & SHIII will (most likely) be an improvement over SHI in many ways. For those ppl who do not like the idea of an Atlantic Sim it will be frustrating to see things that could make a game we like better, being put into a theater that we simply don't have any interest in. You have to respect that there are ppl who have no interest in a ATO sim and for us any advances in the genre are wasted because we will always find the subject boring.

This is no more wrong than what you say above.

At least you have had the chance to play *two* games set in the Atlantic over the last decade; why can't you let Pacific fans have some fun for a change?

Thank you for writing out exactly what I was thinking. I have about zero interest in Uboats themselves, but SH3, as a game, stands head and shoulders above 85% of what's out there, so I bought and played it.

[aanker]

It really isn't worth the effort to get SH running on XP when you can easily find DOS PC's at thrift stores etc. for $20.
LOL...... right you are unless of course the boss of the house (wife) objects to the extra clutter. Excellent solution for those who can though.

Art Anker

[Dogsbd]

LOL...... right you are unless of course the boss of the house (wife) objects to the extra clutter. Excellent solution for those who can though.

Art Anker

You just need to remind "The Boss" that a PC Sim "addiction" is one of the lesser vices a husband can be afflicted with ;)

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

jumping back to the discussion about which theatre of ops people would like to see in IV... i really don't think that it's so much an important issue where we do our hunting (or where we are hunted)...

... i think that the more important thing would be how much the new sim increases our feeling of being there... of being aboard the sub...

... of controlling the subs systems, not only during an attack, but during the normal procedures involved in leaving port, navigating, diving the sub, and locating as well as avoiding the enemy...

if these things alone are enhanced to the point where the immersion factor comes across and makes me feel as if i am there... in the heat of battle, or sweating out a depth charging...

... then i'll be a happy sub sim sailor.


--Mike

[Marhkimov]

Anyways, a change of pace might be fun...

Did anyone ever think for a moment that the Russian front would be a good setting for a flight sim??? If not, then Oleg Maddox has probably changed your mind by now.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

ok... how's this for Pacific Theatre, plus a change of pace...

let's have a Boomer go back in time to the WWII Pacific and get involved in the fracas...

http://home.att.net/~subbase2/3DRADEAllenAndGato.jpg

... just like in that movie with Kirk Douglas, where the carrier went back in time :-j :-j

--Mike

[Torplexed]

ok... how's this for Pacific Theatre, plus a change of pace...

let's have a Boomer go back in time to the WWII Pacific and get involved in the fracas..... just like in that movie with Kirk Douglas, where the carrier went back in time :-j :-j

--Mike

Hee..hee. There would be a short-lived wargame...that would be a short-lived war.

I'm curious. Would a Boomer sent back in time be able to target Japan...or anywhere else for that matter without satellites for mid-course guidance of it's missles? Or are they completely independent?

[aanker]

I'm curious. Would a Boomer sent back in time be able to target Japan...or anywhere else for that matter without satellites for mid-course guidance of it's missles? Or are they completely independent?

That's TOP SECRET .... lol

[Salvadoreno]

The battles in the pacific (excluding surface ships) just didnt seem that intense. The Japanese never quite R&D'ed ASW to counter the americans. From what i ahve read the american subs just totally kicked ass. I would really like to see an Atlantic Sim again, since sh3 is my first experience in wwii sub simulation. I would want to see as much realism as possible.

Uboat Breakdowns
Prize Rules (the rules throughout the war)
Men jumping overboard on small surface vessels (at random)
More Radio dialouge and communications
WOLFPACKS!!@!@#@?#!? ugh i drool at the thought of shadowing a convoy sending beacons to other uboats that are in the area, then communicating with the boats or them just buckling down and tearing the convoy to pieces!
Better graphics of course (visible damage to sub)
An entire world inside the sub. IE dripping water, men walking, men fixing leaks after attacks, every part of the sub comming apart, damage locations, men frantic running about the sub, screaming in depth charge attacks, eating, reading. etc.. A whole underwater sub world would be amazing!!! oh cant forget different animations for crews such as different faces, beat up and tired faces, happy faces when chasing a convoy or sinking a ship, scared faces when hearing DDs above.
THis is probably impossible but with damage locations: emergency orders to rig for scuttling, surrendering, and even escaping a sinking sub!
hmm.. what else??
better underwater sounds ie hearing ships come apart inside the sub..
Just MORE REALISM!!! Assigned missions (invasion of norway, operation drumbeat, Mediterrenean ops, MINELAYING, rescuing crews, a REAL milk cow featureHopefully they do make SHIV as realistic as possible and dont tend to those jumper kids who just wanna blow stuff up. Thats what SH3 got right, the realism settings. Turning them on and off would be perfect. BoBII has endless settings u can choose from to make it more realistic, or just plain arcady.

Hell if they just included like 3-4 of these things in the next Sim id buy it anyway, but i want to "Return to the Atlantic". Where the immersion will be AMAZING!!!!

[Salvadoreno]

The battles in the pacific (excluding surface ships) just didnt seem that intense. The Japanese never quite R&D'ed ASW to counter the americans. From what i ahve read the american subs just totally kicked ass. I would really like to see an Atlantic Sim again, since sh3 is my first experience in wwii sub simulation. I would want to see as much realism as possible.

Uboat Breakdowns
Include ALL COMPARTMENTS!!! (with "sub world" mentioned below)
Prize Rules (the rules throughout the war)
Men jumping overboard on small surface vessels (at random)
More Radio dialouge and communications
WOLFPACKS!!@!@#@?#!? ugh i drool at the thought of shadowing a convoy sending beacons to other uboats that are in the area, then communicating with the boats or them just buckling down and tearing the convoy to pieces!
Better graphics of course (visible damage to sub)
An entire world inside the sub. IE dripping water, men walking, men fixing leaks after attacks, every part of the sub comming apart, damage locations, men frantic running about the sub, screaming in depth charge attacks, eating, reading. etc.. A whole underwater sub world would be amazing!!! oh cant forget different animations for crews such as different faces, beat up and tired faces, happy faces when chasing a convoy or sinking a ship, scared faces when hearing DDs above.
THis is probably impossible but with damage locations: emergency orders to rig for scuttling, surrendering, and even escaping a sinking sub!
hmm.. what else??
better underwater sounds ie hearing ships come apart inside the sub..
Just MORE REALISM!!! Assigned missions (invasion of norway, operation drumbeat, Mediterrenean ops, MINELAYING, rescuing crews, a REAL milk cow featureHopefully they do make SHIV as realistic as possible and dont tend to those jumper kids who just wanna blow stuff up. Thats what SH3 got right, the realism settings. Turning them on and off would be perfect. BoBII has endless settings u can choose from to make it more realistic, or just plain arcady.

Hell if they just included like 3-4 of these things in the next Sim id buy it anyway, but i want to "Return to the Atlantic". Where the immersion will be AMAZING!!!!

[Torplexed]

The battles in the pacific (excluding surface ships) just didnt seem that intense. The Japanese never quite R&D'ed ASW to counter the americans. From what i ahve read the american subs just totally kicked ass. I would really like to see an Atlantic Sim again, since sh3 is my first experience in wwii sub simulation. I would want to see as much realism as possible.

Well...while not nearly as proficient as the Allies the Japanese weren't a total pushover.

A total of 52 United States submarines were lost during WWII.

The United States submarine service sustained the highest mortality rate of all branches of the U.S. Military during WWII.

1 out of every 5 U.S. Navy submariners was killed in WWII.

What would really be intense would be a sim based on how the Japanese ASW forces thought they were doing. According to captured records they identified 468 "positive" sinkings of U.S. submarines during the war. :lol:

[fargel]

I like it how in SH3 it became harder and harder during the years to successfully attack a convoy and get away with it. Also with more allied presence at sea and in the air. IMO, a pacific campaign would just get easier and easier... I would find that very boring (unless someone can convince me that I am wrong).

1 out of every 5 U.S. Navy submariners was killed in WWII.

Well atleast it wasn't as bad as, lets say, 1 out of every 4 German submariners survived WWII.

[Torplexed]

I like it how in SH3 it became harder and harder during the years to successfully attack a convoy and get away with it. Also with more allied presence at sea and in the air. IMO, a pacific campaign would just get easier and easier... I would find that very boring (unless someone can convince me that I am wrong).

1 out of every 5 U.S. Navy submariners was killed in WWII.

Well atleast it wasn't as bad as, lets say, 1 out of every 4 German submariners survived WWII.

Yes...I agree. And 52 subs lost versus 781 U-Boats wasn't as bad either. But then the Germans built a heckuva lot of U-Boats. ;)

Of history's three big submarine campaigns the WW2 Atlantic one was by far the most brutal and gripping. It most fits the classic pattern of a good game in that it becomes more challenging as time goes on. However, marketwise I just don't see UbiSoft putting out another Battle of the Atlantic subsim anytime soon. It would be kind of like putting out three Battle of Britain flight sims in a row. The "suits" will start to wonder. As it is I was stunned that SH3 followed SH2 by only a little over three years. I could be wrong but I just don't see it.

World War One as a sim is always a possibility I guess. I think because the submarine was still in its primitive infancy and because its major enemies of the era were mines and nets rather than destroyers and planes it has never come off. WWI was rather odd in that once the British Admirality finally gave up their stubborn resistance and adopted convoys they cleared the ocean of easy single targets and that effectively ended the Kaiser's U-Boat War.

That leaves the Pacific. Yup. It does get easier. You start out on some obsolete rusty S-Boat running for your life from the Japanese but if you survive you get a shiny Fleet Boat, search radar, air conditioning, an ice cream machine, 2-week vacations in Hawaii, and eventually decent torpedoes. :ping:

I'm entertaining some hope they'll include Dutch and British subs. Would involve a bit more work by the 3-D art and modeling crew but it would sure help the sim to sell to a broader audience.

[Highbury]

SHIV will (most likely) be an improvement over SHIII in many ways. For those ppl who do not like the idea of a Pacific Sim it will be frustrating to see things that could make a game we like better, being put into a theater that we simply don't have any interest in.

You have to respect that there are ppl who have no interest in a PTO sim and for us any advances in the genre are wasted because we will always find the subject boring.

You do realize you can spin this back the other way, right? Here's how I would say things:

SHII & SHIII will (most likely) be an improvement over SHI in many ways. For those ppl who do not like the idea of an Atlantic Sim it will be frustrating to see things that could make a game we like better, being put into a theater that we simply don't have any interest in. You have to respect that there are ppl who have no interest in a ATO sim and for us any advances in the genre are wasted because we will always find the subject boring.

This is no more wrong than what you say above.

At least you have had the chance to play *two* games set in the Atlantic over the last decade; why can't you let Pacific fans have some fun for a change?

Haven't had a chance to check this post for a few days... Nice to see someone registered just to misquote me :) I will specifically focus on the "why can't you let Pacific fans have some fun for a change?" comment.

My first post clearly states that for those waiting for this, congratulations, I hope it is what you have been waiting for. I am merely asking if others are of the same opinion. I respect the right of others to say they are in favor of a pacific sim. This was not meant to be a debate, just seeing where ppl stand. You have shown what you are interested in and that's great! But, you have put words in my mouth. I have never thought, let alone posted anything about not letting you have your Pacific sim, so please read the body of my posts (note the S, plural) before misquoting me, thank you.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

just a thought here... the reason why there is so much attention to the 'amount' of action, as opposed to the 'intensity' of the action... probably lies in the fact that there needs to be a lil more first person immersion in the game (uuhh, sorry, sim :lol: )

i mean, if you were 'there' instead of being on top of it all with a god's eye perspective, zooming around in fast time, searching for convoys...

if you had more sub 'stuff' to do... controlling the sub, standing watch, actually fixing damage and stuff...


plus...

as i remember it, there was a lot of pacific action in those movies i saw as a kid... Clark Gable and Burt Lancaster sure seemed to have their hands full...
http://victoryatseaonline.com/war/ww2/images/runsilent-dvd.jpg

and Cary Grant and crew also saw some action as sailed toward Destination Tokyo...
http://www.carygrant.net/fotogallery/destinationtokyo/dt1.jpghttp://www.carygrant.net/wavs/destination/tokyomen.wav

Glenn Ford and Ernest Bornine also did their thing in the pacific in Torpedo Run...
http://graphics8.nytimes.com//images/section/movies/amg/video/cov120/drv700/v700/v70076dbmfs.jpg

and don't let 'The Duke' hear ya say that there weren't no action during his tour of duty in Operation Pacific...
http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/coverv/05/206205.jpg

finally... who would not want to experience the voyage of the SS Sea Tiger as they participated in Operation Petticoat...
http://www.carygrant.net/fotogallery/operationpetticoat/op-lobby1.jpg

the pacific sub war... hey, it's got a lot to offer ;)

Mike

[aanker]

the pacific sub war... hey, it's got a lot to offer ;)
How about some books:

Silent Victory, Clay Blair, Jr.
Clear the Bridge! and Wahoo Richard O'Kane
Thunder Below! Eugene Fluckey
Run Silent, Run Deep Edward L. Beach
Take Her Deep! I.J. Galantin
Shinano! Joseph Enright
Silent Running James Calvert
The Last Patrol Harry Holmes
The Bravest Man William Tuohy
Pigboat Bobette Gugliotta

These are just a few

Art Anker

[hunter301]

If it's an all-new game with an all-new engine, then I see no reason not to do another U-boat sim. If, however, as seems likely, it's going to have the same engine and style as SHIII, then why walk over the same ground? The original Silent Hunter was based in the Pacific, and it's still popular today, so there is definitely a market for it.


You can't compare a game that came out over 10 years ago to what could be produced out the same mold as SH3. I for one can't wait to have my fleet type sub back. I was raised rootin for the american subs. Not the german U-boats. The american boats in the beginning where nothing to go running for joy about. Most of those old "S" boats where lucky they could float. You thought a type VII was small. The americans had to work there way up the technology ladder the same as the germans or brits did. Where do you think we got radar from?
The TDC didn't even come out until the fleet boats. But by the time you do get your fleet boat you had a kick ass killing machine. And those japs where no slouches either. Anybody ever look at a topo of the bottom of the pacific. A lot shallower around the east coast of Japan and the Alutians than the Atlantic. Your not going to "Take her Deep!!" to many times in the Pacific. You run like hell and take a beating the whole way. Get yourself stuck inside those Island chains in shallow water with a bunch of destroyers on point and see how will you are to say "Here I am!" with a torpedo shot.
Oh and lets not forget all those torpedo problems they had in the beggining. Even in the fleet boats using a TDC you still had over a 50% chance of getting a dud or even worse premature explosions. If I am not mistaken our problems with torpedos was even worse than the germans had.

[Sailor Steve]

I hope you didn't misunderstand me; my point is the same as yours. When I said "the same ground" I meant it would be silly to do another U-boat sim with the same engine. I want my 'S' boats too. At least they had a deck gun, and no having to wait for calm weather to load external torpedoes.

American torpedo faults were almost exactly the same as the Germans'. The difference was US high command refused to believe it, and it wasn't until Admiral Lockwood took over in 1943 that he started to conduct tests which finally led to a solution.

[sonar732]

It really isn't worth the effort to get SH running on XP when you can easily find DOS PC's at thrift stores etc. for $20.
LOL...... right you are unless of course the boss of the house (wife) objects to the extra clutter. Excellent solution for those who can though.

Art Anker

I can empathize with that statement. :rotfl: She already complains about the time spent on two computers. :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, everyone has an opinion. Mine is that a return to the Pacific is long overdue. Besides, maybe the Atlantic could be taken care of in a patch or expansion once the primary game is completed.

Agreed. And I'm pretty burned out on playing Germans and getting my butt kicked, I wanna play on the winning side for a change :arrgh!:

[Marhkimov]

And I wanna be an american again... It's been a while since I was an american in WWII...


IL2FBA (russian, german)
SH3 (german)

well, aside from Pacific Fighters...

[simtim]

Here here! :)

Don't get me wrong, I have fun playing as a German U-Boat commander, but there is nothing like allying yourself with the good ol' US Navy! <salute> <grin>

This is probably a worn-out topic by now, but I have longed to command a US sub in WW2 again, since it is very difficult to advance the cause of the Nazis.... (Hope I am not opening a can of worms here.) Then again, it is only a game and so I did not take my victories and many defeats too seriously.

- Tim

And I wanna be an american again... It's been a while since I was an american in WWII...


IL2FBA (russian, german)
SH3 (german)

well, aside from Pacific Fighters...

[Dogsbd]

well, aside from Pacific Fighters...

PF is so incomplete that it doesn't really count.

[Ark]

There are always people who do and people who don't. I personally really want a new Pacific sub sim, and while I understand the ones who don't I would really appreciate it if you would try to understand my feelings as well.

Where would we be now if half of us had said "We don't want another U-boat game!" two years ago?

^^^^

Agreed.

[supersloth]

how bout an all encompassing game including both atlantic and pacific theaters. but i will agree that i am more into the atlantic side of the war; just something cool about the cold frigid waters of the atlantic.

ps. they should also add detroyers/merchants that will linger around to pick up survivors. and really HUGE convoys, and i mean 80-100 ships. then imagine about 20-25 subs all descending on them :rock: one can dream though.

[dize]

well.... im deffo looking forward to another sh game, and being in the pto will of course have its own flavor. no doubt.
my "problem" with seing sh4 developed now, is why oh why they just couldnt do that sh3 finishing add on. i mean, there must be be some left over content on ther hd´s. its so obvious imho, that it even hurts.
they must have some sort of uboat+bdu beta ai somewhere hidden, if not, they would have to develope that anyway for sh4, so whats the deal of implementing that into an addon for sh3? plus i find the limited amount of different merchant shipping avail in sh3 a bit "uninspiring".
all the things that are labeling sh3 as unfinsihed, is needed for a good s4.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree. While I want to run a U.S. boat again, I really love SHIII, and I hope that anything that is upgraded or fixed for SHIV will be retrofitted to SHIII. I would gladly pay for an SHIII Expansion Pack that includes everything repaired including a proper wolf pack and milk cow function.

[FERdeBOER]

A question... is not possible a game where you can choose side and/or theatre?

The are many games that allow you that.

Also, is not possible to implement as well the posibility of choosing a destroyer?

[Harry Buttle]

A question... is not possible a game where you can choose side and/or theatre?

The are many games that allow you that.

Also, is not possible to implement as well the posibility of choosing a destroyer?


Basically you have asked Ubisoft to develop 4 games and sell them for the price of one.

USN subsim

Jap subsim

USN destroyer sim

Jap destroyer sim

all have very different requirements and would be a virtual 'from scratch' effort.

it can be done, but would cost about 3x as much as doing just one game (allowing for some common work between the 4 games).

[Redwine]

I am not disapointed at all, really i want it will be a german sub sim, because we have a lot of losse things in SH3, as Thermal Layers, Wolf packs, Milk Cows, diferent DDs and DEs behaviour, and many more, not my intemption to star-up a discision about it here.

Really i want a COMPLETE WW2 German Subsim, and a COMPLETE pacific USA/Japan Subsim, and...... i want a good WW1 Subsim too !
WW1 subsim must to have a so diferent way to do the war.... a missed point in sub simulation.

[Wulfmann]

I doubt any reasonable person would suggest the PTO offers a better gaming opportunity.
That said one then must ask if a “improved� version of SH3 is what SH4 is, then doing the Atlantic would offer little financial success or at least perceived by the suits.
Please note that the Germans lost far more than 52 U-Boats in the so called “Happy�
time so the fact is they will have to increase the difficulty a bit beyond reality or it will be without a proper challenge.
So, we will get a PTO game. Like it or not. I like it. Not because Ich bin Amerikaner but it will be a new set of circumstances to explore and I am confident the mod community will not only improve it but cross over some of the updates to SH3.
That said, I believe a good PTO would be enhanced if it included a bonus patch to update SH3 Atlantic.
That is where the good marketing money lays, a reason to buy a new game and reward the loyalty of their paying customers.
I hope they get a clue about language as the English is terrible in SH3 and even though I use the German language that too is not as good as it could be.
We all know such little matter can be improved upon.
I am still of the belief a WWI update add-on would be popular. Using the same game with 2 new sub models and ship models etc and one would have a whole new version of what is a very good game already.
Wulfmann

[Jonesy]

Hello people, first time poster, long time lurker around here. :)

I was a big fan of the first silent hunter so a return to the PTO could really be a good thing with the new graphics capabilities, I know that the Japanese didn´t master the art of ASW as well as the british did in the Atlantic but I remember dying enough times in SH1, So that shouldn´t be a problem. (of course i was just a small kid then...not much pacience)


the most important thing about SH4 is that it must not...come with starforce again :stare: , starforce completelly destroyed what was otherwise a great experience with SH3 for me, loved the game but ended up uninstalling it because Starforce kept screwing up my system.

[gilbertf]

I hope Silent Hunter4 will be Pacific based.

Silent Hunter 3 is pretty good and is right now based on german uboats. It's been two games based on the uboats since the first silent hunter and time has come to go back to the pacific.

We need some fresh air. New submarines and a new context of war will be refreshing after having played SH2 and SH3.

I like SH3. But I dont want to play SH4 even if improved in the same area with the same kind of boats.

And the first SH was Pacific based so what's the problem huh ? :arrgh!:

The first submarine game I ever played was Gato from the DOS.
Then I played a game where you would play uboats with a graphical interface, still launched from the DOS. I dont recall its name.

I also played Silent Service and i loved it :)

I am very impatient, 10 years over, to come back to the Pacific area with the today modern improved graphics !

[Sea Demon]

I'll just say I'd love to play in the Pacific theater. Already seen the Atlantic twice.

[Salvadoreno]

The Atlantic will never get old. I agree with a previous poster. If they are going to come out with a game, i want it COMPLETE with options for noobs as well as hardcore gamers. A pacific game i can stomach now, specially since its official, but i want it COMPLETE.. Do not miss any really important features devs! please!!!! Do not exclude too much, make it playable for us hardcore gamers who crave realism!! thats all i ask!

[SubSerpent]

Let's face it. If the game looks good (graphically), and has cool features that actually work and are implemented into the game correctly, and the gameplay is fantastic and addicting, you will buy it, I know I will.

I never liked anything 'space' related for a game and found them to be completely boring. I just never had much interest in star trek or star wars, but one day I found myself standing in a game shop staring at a wall of games that did not interest me. Made me mad really since I was waiting for a long awaited game (forget which one) but it was not in that day. I WANTED A GAME DAMN IT! I wasn't leaving without one or two hehe = ) So anyways I picked up a space game (Microsoft's Freelancer) and some other game that day. NOTE: Usually when there isn't a game on the shelf that I want or that I have been looking for I end up buying two 'unknowns'. This way I have two games and one of them might be half ass interesting. Sometimes neither of them is worth a damn and I feel horrible, but most of the time I will at least get one that will float my boat for awhile. ANYWAYS, Freelancer turned out to be one hell of an addiction for me - this coming from a guy who hates Space Sims or Space Games for that matter.

So to make a long story short(er) I think most of you will go out and buy SHIV regardless of what freakin part of the world it takes place in. I don't care if it takes place in Old Man River's backyard pond as long as the graphics and gameplay are phenomenal. And think of it this way, if you don't support SHIV then there might not be a SHV or SHVI and so on. These companies won't shell out the money unless they think there is a market. Unfortunately the Atlantic is getting to be used a bit to much and people are going to stop buying games that have anything to do with the Atlantic. Kind of like all the FPS Vietnam games that came out and how overdun that became. Now it's WWII FPS set in Europe and how overdun that has gotten. People want something new and not something they have seen time and time again. Give it a few years or a decade and I think you will see WWII Uboat games surface once again.

[Trout]

PTO offers Ubisoft LOTS of fun gameplay potential:

1) more surface combat against small ships and coastal areas, perhaps in support of Marine Raiders attacking shore facilities?

2)challenges around shallow water navigation, nasty currents.

3) lots of graphic variety with weather, deep ocean, close to shore beaches, jungles, rocky cliffs, reefs ect.

4) more missions in pursuit of warships (how often do you get to ambush or chase after 30kn carriers, BBs or cruisers in SH3?)

5) With a better dynamic campaign, you could play a part in major offensives and invasions

The issue of this theatre being "easier" that the atlantic is just silly. SH3 is already pretty easy (too easy) if you ask me. With SH4 they should look for ways to make the game more difficult PERIOD. They could also give you options to take on VERY dangerous special missions that are not an option in SH3. How would you like to spy on the harbour at Truck, or navigate a minefield in the busy Bungo Straight? What about picking up a b29 crew in the water close to Tokyo, or a stranded coast watcher DEEP behind the lines in Malaysia?

Im reading a book now that describes how US submariners had to train on doing target motion analysis (TMA) on sound only contacts that could result in a firing solution. TMA is never easy with bearing only info - how would you like to try THAT in SH4!

I also know that when they were operating close to Japan, US subs stayed submerged through the day and had to get into shooting position without surfacing. I see some very tricky situations here where you have to choose the optimal path and speed to intercept that makes the best use of your limited battery power.

The US also had some VERY antiquated boats that stayed in service fairly late into the war

You would have to be nuts not to see the gameplay potential here.

It might be an easy game, but only if UBI chooses not to rise to the challenge of building a better subsim.

Trout

[Deamon]

Hey Highbury, you ever checking your PM's ?

[pythos]

who refused to get SHIII because it simulates Nazi (German) U-boats. I remember one person here posting (after reading the post confirming SHIII would be the atlantic campaign) "then I won't be buying it" For every one like that, there are many who think like that. Each one of those, is one less customer for UBi. There are people who refuse to acknowledge the other side as something other than brutal murderers (which suprisingly the U-boat waffen was quite far from being, even with the execution of one commander who did shoot survivors.) The Nazis were evil, therefore anyone that served them were evil (again a falsehood) is the mindset of some people.

The United states were of course the good guys, and therefore Ubi might attract the people who refused to play the role of a baby killing Nazi (Donitz refused any political officers from being on his boats, sounds like someone walking in step with the nazis to me) by making one based on the U.S. operations in the pacific. Having read about the US boats, it should actually prove quite challenging concidering all boats before the Gato class were limited to a dive depth of 200 feet, (about half that of a type VIIB!) So dodging depth charges will be a true challenge.

Oh, and for those that concider U-boat commanders to be lock step Nazi idiots, I found this in "Wolf pack" Upon arriving at the docking peir, the commander of a returning Uboat yelled out "Are the Nazis still running things? Donitz himself said "yes". The commander ordered full reverse and commenced backing out of the dock, to approrous laughter by those on the peir, including Donitz. Not all those who fight for a government, believe in that government.

[BH]

The us navy submarine force played a very large role in the defeat of japan. Considering in 1942 japanesse forces were spread out over a very large area of the pacfic. The submarines stopped vital war supplies from reaching japanese troops and with the japanese unable to effectively supply troops, advances were stopped. The impact of us subs were huge. Not only that but there was extreme acts of heroism like Captain Sam Dealy (medal of Honor) The Destroyer Killer, who was killed by a captured us destroyed converted into a minesweeper by the japanese. Not before sinking 18 ships for 55,000

The point is Germany impacts were felt at the start of the war then like every other part of the german forces were simply overmatched (despite technological breakthroughs) The US submarines fleet was more sucessful, and not because japan did not have the capabilty to preform ASW.

[aanker]

refused to get SHIII because it simulates Nazi (German) U-boats
I really liked the movie DAS BOOT and believe that all submariners are brothers, I just can't bring myself to torpedo any Allied warships or convoys even though it is just a game.

Art Anker

[pythos]

From what I have read about both major sub campaigns, these units in full numbers essentially could have brought the war to a grinding halt. But like every great tactic there was always some admiral or other higher up that wanted to drag thousands of troops, or build huge bulky battleships and aircraft carriers and put them into the war, surely to be destroyed.

Another such debacle in tactics is the story of the convair B-36. If this machine had been developed with the full backing of the admirals, this plane would have ellimanted the need for the island hpping campaign in the pacific. It could have launched strikes from the U.S., or Austrailia for the heavier bombloads, savings many a ground pounders life.

But thanks to some admirals getting their panties in a bunch, and demanding the money going to the B-36 instead go towards the construction of a giant Aircraft carrier called the United States, The B-36 didn't see service until nearly a decade after the start of the war. Oh and the United States never got built.

[Uber Gruber]

I really liked the movie DAS BOOT and believe that all submariners are brothers, I just can't bring myself to torpedo any Allied warships or convoys even though it is just a game.

No offence but please have a real big think about your sentence. You are effectively saying you can't bring yourself to click on a screen, hence activating a subroutine which results in a graphical display of an explosion of a low detailed graphic of a ship on your screen. You feel that by clicking on this red button you are somehow associating yourself with an act of murder. Are you not well?!!!!
:nope:

[aanker]

LOL Gruber, no offence taken ... I can't click the red button. I guess that I should have taken the blue pill. ;-)

Art Anker

[-Pv-]

I too have clicked the red button in three German sub games and didn't like it very much. I enjoyed the graphics, the sim, the challenge, appreciated the historical significance of what the men in those mahines endured and accomplished, but still hated sinking my own virtual countrymen. I guess I'm just a little sensitive and my father was in the US WWII Navy.

That didn't keep me from playing the games for what they were intended to do. Entertain, just like Das Boot entertained me. I just don't like my face shoved in it year after year after year and paying for it as I believed in the SH franchise more than I believed in the German war machine. I now see my investment paying off in a modern Pacific game. I welcome it. SHIII will remain a modern game for a couple more years yet. I'll probably be trying to finish my 1st SHIII campaign long after SHIV hits the shelves.
-Pv-

[Steeltrap]

A few comments (haven't been here for a while, so making up for it now....) in no particular order:

* Japanese ASW did suck in comparison with what the Germans faced in the Atlantic, for a few reasons.
- Japanese navy trained by England BUT remained very traditional...considered ASW work 2nd rate and of low importance. Thus it received less emphasis, tech development and resources. They paid for it big time....
- throughout the war, there were large numbers of ships travelling singly/in small groups without escort. The convoy system never approached the allies' level of achievement.

* The Pacific is HUGE! Excellent news in that you won't run into aircraft in the middle of nowhere (always irritated me that this happened seemingly independently of where aircraft were actually based and their ranges would allow them to reach). Bad news in that you can expect to spend a LOT of time puttering from here to there without much going on. Great in real life, not so much for a sim.

* Part of the drama in Pacific is that you might just run into a particularly good commander of an escort some day, versus latter stages of the Atlantic when any escort could (and did!) kill you with depressing certainty.

* Someone pointed out that there were plenty of action opportunities based on a variety of missions and landscapes/conditions, and they were correct in doing so. Doesn't remove the fact that the majority of missions are the same as in the Atlantic, i.e. go here and patrol for a few weeks then come home, which is how it should be.

* The comparitively poor diving depths and submerged manouverability of US subs matter little when the opposition has poor ASW technology and training. Other tech aspects give US subs a considerable edge in some ways, such as radar (surface AND air, especially the latter where they received sufficient warning to submerge before an aircraft could get close).

As far as the question of which theatre was deadlier, does anyone think it matters to the thousands on all sides who died?

I'd always prefer Atlantic over Pacific, but that doesn't mean I think Pacific doesn't have plenty to offer if done well.

[Red Devil]

I know alot of you guys are happy about SHIV being a Pacific Sim, but I was just wondering if I am alone in my views.

I have read alot about the sub operations in the Pacific to keep my history well rounded but it has never intrigued me or fascinated me in the was that the U-boat war in the atlantic did. I really don't have a bunch of technical reasons why. I am Americans will find it more appealing then I do.

Lets face it, sub SIMS are a niche market because honestly, between engagements there is not alot to do and most ppl who are not there for the subject matter will be bored by it's gaming value. PTO does not interest me so on this title I would be in the latter position.

Maybe if there is a SHV they will head back to the atlantic on it......

For those of you who DO want a Pacific sim and have been waiting for it, I do know what that is like. Gratz on seeing light at the end of the tunnel and hope it scratches your PTO itch. :D Being a Brit who intensively researches WW2, in particular the Maritime scenarios, I would not pilot a uboat against my own "side" if the game was free. I had a book published back in December on maritime "disasters" on both sides. But, I can quite happily pilot a US sub against the Nips!! Missions in SH4 should include pilot rescue, shore shellings, encounters with gun boat patrol craft and shallow water commando drop off missions, like in reality, as well as ships being torpedoed. We should also be able ti nifiltrate areas like Tokyo bay in order to sneak into naval bases.

[zombiewolf]

It really isn't worth the effort to get SH running on XP when you can easily find DOS PC's at thrift stores etc. for $20.
LOL...... right you are unless of course the boss of the house (wife) objects to the extra clutter. Excellent solution for those who can though.

Art Anker

Now why in the heck did thid never occur to me.
duhhh.
and I just sold my 2 commadore 64's

[bill clarke]

I'm hoping they model a narwahl class boat, I want to take on a DD with 2 6" guns, mmmmm :rotfl:

[Ahoy!]

The Pacific can offer som different gameplay than the Atlantic, although for me the German boats have more "mojo". I understand the decision to make a PTO sim this time. The best would be if the SH series went the same route as IL2; the different theaters are merged into one big game.

[Beery]

My heart will always be with the German Atlantic U-Boats, BUT I have fond memories of SH1 (and Silent Service II and even Gato), so I'm looking forward to it. In my view the Atlantic is the 'real' submarine war, but the Pacific has a lot of charm too. If I hadn't played SH1 I'd probably be pushing for a WW1 sub sim, but if they do it right (i.e. if they include Japanese subs), then we'll be in for a treat.

[aanker]

In my view the Atlantic is the 'real' submarine war

With most of the US fleet destroyed at Pearl Harbor the submarines were about all that we had left in the Pacific aside from a few CV's etc. and conducted a challenging campaign that I am looking forward to simulating in Silent Hunter IV.

From Hondo's Valor at Sea website ( http://www.valoratsea.com ):
"The final tallies show that of the 10 million tons of military and merchant shipping lost by the Japanese during WW II, US submarines accounted for a total of 54%. The interesting question remains as to how much earlier could the war have been brought to a close had the US submarine fleet been initially equipped with reliable torpedoes."

[DeepSix]

"...The interesting question remains as to how much earlier could the war have been brought to a close had the US submarine fleet been initially equipped with reliable torpedoes."

A position Clay Blair supports as well, along with a claim that it would have been closed sooner had the subs been better deployed early in the war (but a lot of what he says about that is hindsight, IMO).

[Etienne]

refused to get SHIII because it simulates Nazi (German) U-boats
I really liked the movie DAS BOOT and believe that all submariners are brothers, I just can't bring myself to torpedo any Allied warships or convoys even though it is just a game.

Art Anker

Hi! Name's Etienne, I'm a merchant marine midshipman!

And I don't mind pushing the button. Game. Not real life.

Heck, I've played SHII while I was sailling the North Atlantic :-D The motion was more realistic... Somehow.

[don1reed]

ok... how's this for Pacific Theatre, plus a change of pace...

let's have a Boomer go back in time to the WWII Pacific and get involved in the fracas..... just like in that movie with Kirk Douglas, where the carrier went back in time :-j :-j

--Mike

Hee..hee. There would be a short-lived wargame...that would be a short-lived war.

I'm curious. Would a Boomer sent back in time be able to target Japan...or anywhere else for that matter without satellites for mid-course guidance of it's missles? Or are they completely independent?

Without satcom/GPS they couldn't navigate...they don't teach Cel Nav at the Academy any longer.

[Torplexed]

ok... how's this for Pacific Theatre, plus a change of pace...

let's have a Boomer go back in time to the WWII Pacific and get involved in the fracas..... just like in that movie with Kirk Douglas, where the carrier went back in time :-j :-j

--Mike

Hee..hee. There would be a short-lived wargame...that would be a short-lived war.

I'm curious. Would a Boomer sent back in time be able to target Japan...or anywhere else for that matter without satellites for mid-course guidance of it's missles? Or are they completely independent?

Without satcom/GPS they couldn't navigate...they don't teach Cel Nav at the Academy any longer.

Thanks for the answer. Wow. After three months I had almost forgotten I had asked that question. :cool:

[JJ]

I don't really mind whether it'd be Pacific or Atlantic theater. I'm getting my ass whopped anyhow by some no good fishing boat equipped with just harpoons and **** :lol:

And on the other hand, the weather may not be so hostile as is the case most of the time at the North Sea. Of course those tropical storms are a whole other thing altogether. But they're more seasonal type of thingies. I think.

But Pacific is fine with me.

[Boris]

I would be truly pissed if SH4 (using the same engine) gets all the great features SH3 should have had, but does not have the atlantic theater to enjoy these in.
At very least they could release the SDK, so all the features of SH4 could be brought into SH3.
I wouldn't mind a bit of pacific action, but I'm an u-boot man at heart.

Why not include the atlantic theater in SH4 (all the content is there!), and have a fully populated global WWII scenario. So if you were able to sail your german IXD2 to the pacific theatre, you'd be seeing all the pacific campaigns going on.

[gorilliamos]

jumping back to the discussion about which theatre of ops people would like to see in IV... i really don't think that it's so much an important issue where we do our hunting (or where we are hunted)...

... i think that the more important thing would be how much the new sim increases our feeling of being there... of being aboard the sub...

... of controlling the subs systems, not only during an attack, but during the normal procedures involved in leaving port, navigating, diving the sub, and locating as well as avoiding the enemy...

if these things alone are enhanced to the point where the immersion factor comes across and makes me feel as if i am there... in the heat of battle, or sweating out a depth charging...

... then i'll be a happy sub sim sailor.


--Mike


I totally agree with this!

To the people that are dissapointed with the sim being in the pacific: Do you think the life aboard a U.S. sub will be boring and unworthy?

This is a sim, not an arcade game. Imagine the great subs we will be able to ride around in. I'm sure there will be danger and suspense. It's not like it was a cakewalk out there.

[pilotxxl]

What is your problem?

You want a new and good sim or a diverse war arena?

My concern go to the new version and the new level of realism that Ubi would carry to subsim.

Pacific is huge?

Well... then the navigation system and the operational system would be intensified with accurate reprodution of navigational tools and environment (maps, winds, currents, weather vanes, sextant, semi wheels, etc.), the supplies needeed (spare parts, water & food, fuel), and the maintenance and the surveillance of the engines and main storage batteries (Thermometers, tachometers, revolution counters, voltmeters) to prevent malfunctions or overheathing of the engines, and the draining of batteries.

Ventilation, heathing, light systems, diving and surfacing may be modeled with incresing tasks and different levels of cpmplexity.

Training duties and operational exercises must be performed in order to keep the crew in a high state of readiness.

Increasing radio messages and enabling to tune in radio stations and military and naval frequencies will immerse the player into the strategical game.

If Ubi succeds to put 50% of all this in the game, Pacific or Atlantic would be a matter with low importance.

[Sulikate]

What is your problem?

You want a new and good sim or a diverse war arena?

My concern go to the new version and the new level of realism that Ubi would carry to subsim.

Pacific is huge?

Well... then the navigation system and the operational system would be intensified with accurate reprodution of navigational tools and environment (maps, winds, currents, weather vanes, sextant, semi wheels, etc.), the supplies needeed (spare parts, water & food, fuel), and the maintenance and the surveillance of the engines and main storage batteries (Thermometers, tachometers, revolution counters, voltmeters) to prevent malfunctions or overheathing of the engines, and the draining of batteries.

Ventilation, heathing, light systems, diving and surfacing may be modeled with incresing tasks and different levels of cpmplexity.

Training duties and operational exercises must be performed in order to keep the crew in a high state of readiness.

Increasing radio messages and enabling to tune in radio stations and military and naval frequencies will immerse the player into the strategical game.

If Ubi succeds to put 50% of all this in the game, Pacific or Atlantic would be a matter with low importance.

I think he's got the point: as long as it is the BEST WWII subsim ever, It isn't important whether it's pacific or atlantic:
I'm SURE you'll like it.

[Trout]

It should have the same modable features as Microsoft FLight sim.


MSFS has actually spawned companies that do nothing but aircraft (and damn fine ones too).

I just bought a copy of a C130 Herc that came with a 500 page manual. IT takes half an hour just to start her up and taxi to takeoff!

So imagine what a good modder could do with this game. I would LOVE the challenge of sailing and navigating a sub.

Trout

[pilotxxl]

Once again, Trout touch a sore spot. If Ubi wish follow the footsteps of MS in MSFS, her problem will be only:

1) model a good an realistic map of the area with the correct shores and the perfect ocean bottom with the correct shallow waters and tipycal ocean currents;

2) identical meteo conditions;

3) a good layout of the ports, buoys, lighthouses, with night and day variances;

4) Only some subs in the main package, well detailed, with complex equipment, making possible to all of us perform the distinct tasks in the various stations with the maximum accuracy;

5) Make possible to produce new subs by the sub community or independent producers:

6) Take a special care when develop AI, putting the right ships in the right place in the right time in accordance with the campaign;

7) Diferent kind of ships, Cargo (light, medium, heavy), Sub rescue vessels, Minesweepers, Hospital, Coastal, Tug, Sampan, Barracks (non-propelled), and so on.

[Wulfmann]

Considering that SH3 taxes most machines today and by next year most customers will not have made huge upgrades one must assume SH4 will be a SH3 improved game of sorts.
Therefore doing the Atlantic would have no profit appeal.

The next Atlantic version would require a decent techno leap to warrant trashing SH3.

The Pacific will then create more fresh interest but UBI would be wise to include a nice NA upgrade to SH3 in this SH4 package satifying both camps.

I can play the cyber role of any side so don't get the can't torpedo an English ship idea. This just puts us in a position others served in and with the anti-Nazi Kriegsmarine few should worry of being cast as on the dark side. IMO

My father was at Pearl Harbor when it was bombed and I would have no problem doing the mini sub sneaking in to sink his ship.
It is a game, hello!!

The US subs could not take the pounding German subs could nor dive as deep but the Jap subs are super fragile compared to the yank boats and dive times are long enough at 1x to order dive and go eat dinner! :rotfl:

With vast open water I can see modding the TC to 4096 or 8192!

Wulfmann

[Heibges]

Surface Search Radar just makes it too easy to find targets. Only the early war missions were really challenging in Silent Service or Silent Hunter.

I hope there is an Atlantik expansion, or patch included with SH4.

US Navy used wolfpacks just smaller.

[Beery]

I too have clicked the red button in three German sub games and didn't like it very much. I enjoyed the graphics, the sim, the challenge, appreciated the historical significance of what the men in those mahines endured and accomplished, but still hated sinking my own virtual countrymen. I guess I'm just a little sensitive and my father was in the US WWII Navy.

They're all people, no matter where they come from or what language they speak. When people kill other people in wartime it's not like it's 'better' if they're killing a foreigner, nor is it 'worse' to kill one's fellow countryman. I think any such feelings that one nation or race is more important than another must come from a pretty dark place.

I guess this is why people can be persuaded to go to war. It's easier to dehumanize someone if they speak a foreign language or look different. But then again, maybe I'm sensitive on this subject, since I lived in Germany and Austria for a few years.

The other thing is, we're talking about a game. No one is really dying. I had an uncle at El Alamein and three relatives in WWI, but I'd have no problem buying a game in which I was expected to shoot British 'Tommies' coming over the top at Third Ypres or man a German 88 at El Alamein and shoot at my simulated uncle's tanks. The reason being that I'm not killing anyone.

[pilotxxl]

Right, Jap subs are hard to manoeuvre underwater, slow to dive, easy to track in sonar and very easy to spot visual or in the radar, considered their huge size, but the main problem in their poor performance is due to tactical orders.

Japanese subs where mainly employed against military shps and to running supplies to the islands garrison's.

With such commitments I have none surprise seeing their lack of tonnage sunk during the war.

[perisher]

Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing a game set in the Mediterranean with British subs but that'll probably have to wait for some really intrepid software company out there.

That would be good. The attraction for me would be the diversity of operations that RN submarines undertook in the Med. Apart from anti-shipping, there were supply missions, mining missions, landing agents and rading parties, and, my favourite, shooting up Italian trains on coastal railways. Maybe they could tie it in with Microsoft Train Simulator :lol:

[FAdmiral]

NO, I will NOT be disappointed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


JIM

[perisher]

Just think of it, you can trade in your smelly and uncomfortable Type VII for a nice big Gato with air conditioning and an ice cream machine. ;)

[Type941]

I am not dissapointed with the theater. I am a bit dissapointed that they went down the route and made the game sellable (i.e. make it american). I want Pacific, but I want to play as Japanese subs as well. It's got a huge cool factor to it, much like it would have been cool to play as a soviet sub in European theater. Sadly it seems this spirit of making things not mainstream is out of Ubisoft, regardles of how much hype this game they give.

[Threadfin]

I'm very happy to get a new Pacific sub sim. I still play Pacific Aces.

I think, if done right, the challenge in SH4 will moreso be sinking targets, less so survival. It's too easy to sink ships in SH3, due to low speeds, lack of zig plans, and very reliable torpedos.

If SH4 is done with historical accuracy the real challenge in SH4 will be not coming home skunked.

[DeepSix]

...Sadly it seems this spirit of making things not mainstream is out of Ubisoft, regardles of how much hype this game they give.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, and my reply is meant to be more of a general one than a specific response to your post, but how exactly are WWII American subs not mainstream?

The Americans had the largest submarine power in the whole flippin' theater - second largest in the world - and yet I read posts asking for Japanese subs of a type and class in which only four were built.... Sorry if I sound defensive, but it doesn't add up. We should demand that the devs throw in some playable native fishing boats or outrigger canoes - just to make sure no one gets left out....

It wouldn't have made any sense to include Allied subs in SH3, because even though there were a few of them in the Atlantic, the Atlantic sub war was dominated by the u-boats. Likewise, the Pacific submarine war was essentially fought by U.S. subs against Japanese merchants and warships. Why should a Pacific sub game be about anything else?

???

[Beery]

yet I read posts asking for Japanese subs of a type and class in which only four were built.... Sorry if I sound defensive, but it doesn't add up. We should demand that the devs throw in some playable native fishing boats or outrigger canoes - just to make sure no one gets left out....

Firstly, this is to be a submarine game, not a canoe or fishing boat sim. I realise you're joking, but it's a poor jest when it serves only to deride other players' desires. More importantly, there is no reason whatsoever for players to be treated with derision purely for making a request for playable Japanese subs. Japanese subs took part in the Pacific War, so their existence in a game of submarine warfare in the Pacific is hardly something to be dismissed out of hand.

Most importantly, there is ample precedent for rare sub types to be modelled and playable. SH3 modelled the Type XXI when only two were ready for combat by the war's end. SH3 also modelled the Type VIIC/42 when none of that type were ever even built!

So let's give our fellow players' requests the respect they deserve.

Personally I'd like to see Japanese and British subs modelled - including very rare models. No one's gonna tell me that such a desire is worthy of ridicule. I don't care if such subs aren't mainstream; I don't care if such subs played virtually no part in the war. If I want to sail in such vessels I have not only the right but the responsibility to request it. Hell, there wouldn't even be a Pacific sub sim if people only went with the mainstream - we'd be stuck with the most popular theatre, and only able to use the most popular U-boat. I'm sure it would be real fun to only have the choice of playing a game based on the Type VIIC boat - I'd probably play such a game for about a week until I got bored with sailing in the same boat all the time.

[DeepSix]

...So let's give our fellow players' requests the respect they deserve.

Please read the first line of my post. I said my response was a general one, not aimed at anybody in particular. I meant no disrespect and to be honest I resent the implication that I did.

@Type941 - For the sake of getting it on the record clearly, I meant no disrespect - but I *did* mean to disagree with you and I'm not apologizing for that. I think the reason we have the forum is to discuss, and that's all I meant to do. We're all splitting hairs over this as-yet unseen product anyway. My apologies in advance if I offended anybody.

Personally I'd like to see Japanese and British subs modelled - including very rare models...

Fine - mod them.

Peace out.

[Type941]

ah... when did this turn into an argument? Was it my fault? Sorry. Not meant to be. I'm not asking to sabsitute US subs with Jap subs, but from educational point of view, I'm just so much more interested in the non traditional, less talked about and shown on Discovery type of thing, not your average US ww2 sub shown in so many movies. That's just me though. I hope devs at LEAST allow people to mod the game. If they are not budgeted for Jap or Soviet (forget it) and UK subs, that's fine, but don't lock the game that makes it a crime basically in modern PC gaming world. If you Devs keep locking games up, we'll stop buying them even. If new consoles turn out so good, allow for simulation, I would not touch a non moddable PC game. To me a PC game is best first of all for my ability to mod it. That's the gist of my message - give me the US sub but at least let me mod it to a japanese one. But Looking at how difficult modding of SH3 goes, I am not holding my breath.

Besides, I'm also hoping this game won't be some sort of hidden message of fight against the evil doers by brave american soldiers, connected to current world order, supplemented by comparable dialogoues and cut scenes.

Asking for a moddable, modern, high tech, WW2 sim, being fine with in Pacific, hope that's cleared now. :)


PS. At the beginning of the war, Soviet navy quite possible had the largest submarine fleet. :up:

[Torplexed]

PS. At the beginning of the war, Soviet navy quite possible had the largest submarine fleet. :up:

Yes, they did but in four widely separated bodies of water -Northern, Baltic, Black Sea and Pacific. They were poorly maintained and lacked modern communications, sonar and even torpedo fire control equipment. Most of the commanders had zero initiative or direction from above. In the one area they might have made a difference, the Baltic - the U-Boat training ground and vital lifeline to the German armaments industry- they were shut behind minefields and extensive multiple net barriers and so harried by ASW forces they accomplished little.

I'd much rather be a Japanese sub commander than a Russian one. :ping:

[Type941]

Ok ok, they were sh*t, let's go back to whatever but them. :roll:

[TangoShadow]

Hi,

I thought the Atlantic was where the majority of U-Boat operations took place, and where most of the historic battles occurred?? The Pacific was small-time by comparison, was it not?

Personally 'd like to see some more work done on SH3 (I know it isn't going to happen outside of the mod community). More compartments on the boat, improved interior damage modelling (i.e. more of it), and a few more bug fixes.

--TangoShadow

[Subnuts]

Hi,

I thought the Atlantic was where the majority of U-Boat operations took place, and where most of the historic battles occurred?? The Pacific was small-time by comparison, was it not?



Except for sinking more than 1,100 merchants, eight aircraft carriers, three heavy cruisers, a battleship, and eight light cruisers, cutting off the supply of oil and supplies to Japan and nearly blockading them into surrender, no, American submarines didn't accomplish much in the Pacific.

American submarines also managed to sink a whopping total of zero German ships during 86 Atlantic patrols. So if that sounds exciting to you, you might want to get on the horn with UbiSoft.

[DS]

The Silent Hunter series was born in the PTO, and it is more than time to revisit the PTO in my opinion. I first got into submarine simulations with the first Silent Hunter, but I have played every submarine simulation that has come out since, and a few that pre-date SH1.

The U.S. Silent Service's war in the Pacific is rich both in terms of history and culture, and in terms of variety of mission types, environments, and operational considerations. While the u-boat war is also of interest to me, my simulation interests really lie with U.S. Submarines in the Pacific.

While the U-boats of WW2 were mostly aimed at merchant shipping in open and usually deep water (there were a few exceptions, I know), U.S submarines engaged in merchant shipping attacks, warship attacks, supporting naval and amphibious operations, special forces insertions/extractions, aircrew recovery, harbour penetrations, littoral warfare, reconaisance, evacuations, and even operated in conjuction with allied surface forces (what the large and fast "fleet" boats were built for). As such, I believe there is a wider variety of mission types and challenges for virtual skippers in the PTO.

Also, as previously stated, a Gato, Balao, or Tench class boat is a whole different kettle of fish in terms of size, fire power, and in the later years, even technology (PPI radar, and even air conditioning!). With the exception of the Type XXI, I regard u-boats as very heartily built and commanded, but slightly more primative boats (less speed, range, size, firepower, and equipment). That said, I love them for what they were.

The U.S. fleet boats for me though, had more pesonality (named vs. numbered, battle flags and unit citations for boats, as opposed to awards for officers and crews in the german navy), and accomplishments generally were associated more with the boat (skippers rotated after 4-6 patrols in the U.S. Navy) than with the skipper or crew, whereas the accomplishments in the U-boat service tend to be associated with famous skippers more than famous hulls.

Also, the submarine war in the Pacific is well documented through books and movies (Run Silent-Run Deep, Operation Pacific, Crash Dive, Torpedo Alley, and Destination Tokyo for starters)

For me, it is definately time to return to the PTO, and resurrect the stories of the USS Wahoo, USS Tang, USS Barb, and all the other boats that all travelled far and long from arctic to tropical waters, from the deep blue ocean to the painfully shallow waters of Tokyo Bay, and sank such a massive amount of shipping that Japan was strangled from the sea.

[Sulikate]

I am not dissapointed with the theater. I am a bit dissapointed that they went down the route and made the game sellable (i.e. make it american). I want Pacific, but I want to play as Japanese subs as well. It's got a huge cool factor to it, much like it would have been cool to play as a soviet sub in European theater. Sadly it seems this spirit of making things not mainstream is out of Ubisoft, regardles of how much hype this game they give.
Totally agreed here:up:.

[Payoff]

It's been a long time comin, since the original Silent Hunter. IMHO

[WOD]

I am not dissapointed with the theater. I am a bit dissapointed that they went down the route and made the game sellable (i.e. make it american). I want Pacific, but I want to play as Japanese subs as well. It's got a huge cool factor to it, much like it would have been cool to play as a soviet sub in European theater. Sadly it seems this spirit of making things not mainstream is out of Ubisoft, regardles of how much hype this game they give.
Totally agreed here:up:.

I agree too

But I think if SH IV will play in pacific theatre then some new wanted features should be not in the game....especially Wolfpacks. Submarine Warfare plays a minor role in the pacific and the idea of Wolfpacks in WWII are fully established by germans...so american sub wolfpacks, if it would be in the game, wouldn´t be historically correct.

Plz correct me if I´m wrong.

But I like pacific theatre, playing still SH I and SH II Pacific Aces. And it makes still much fun.

But when Silent Hunter IV will be released there should be an expansion pack with new features for Silent Hunter III, cause then the game is not so different to SH III, cause it will use the same engine....Then all would be able to play the pacific theatre with the new features but in the Atlantic with the new features too.

That is what I hope, cause I like both theatres....atlantic a bit more but not much more than the pacific.

Greetz from Germany

[Sailor Steve]

But when Silent Hunter IV will be released there should be an expansion pack with new features for Silent Hunter III, cause then the game is not so different to SH III, cause it will use the same engine....Then all would be able to play the pacific theatre with the new features but in the Atlantic with the new features too.
My vote is for that idea too.

[Theta Sigma]

Having it in the Pacific is a dream come true for me. Being stuck driving Yank subs is the rub. :(

Is that set in stone?

[Subnuts]

"Knock Knock!"
"Who's there?"
"Atlantic Theatre!"
"Knock Knock!"
"Who's there?"
"Atlantic Theatre!"
"Knock Knock!"
"Who's there?"
"Atlantic Theatre!"
"Knock Knock!"
"Who's there?"
"Atlantic Theatre!"
"Knock Knock!"
"Who's there?"
"Atlantic Theatre!"
"Knock Knock!"
"Who's there?"
"Atlantic Theatre!"

[DS]

But I think if SH IV will play in pacific theatre then some new wanted features should be not in the game....especially Wolfpacks. Submarine Warfare plays a minor role in the pacific and the idea of Wolfpacks in WWII are fully established by germans...so american sub wolfpacks, if it would be in the game, wouldn´t be historically correct.

Plz correct me if I´m wrong.

Greetz from Germany

Hi,

With respect, if submarine warfare interests you, you would probably enjoy reading up a bit on the U.S. submarine war in the Pacific. You might be surprised to learn that U.S. submarines were largly succesful in economically strangling Japan, something the U-boats valiently attempted, but failed, to do to the United Kingdom. Further, if memory serves, U.S. submarines sank more Japanese tonnage than all other classes of U.S. naval vessels combined, with some boat tonnages approaching and in the case of the USS Flasher (I believe), even exceeding 100,000 tons.

Lastly, U.S. submarines did operate in small wolf packs (2-4 boats) on a number of war patrols later in the war. I believe that they were operationally different in the application of tactics in that german wolfpacks tended to be centrally controlled by Bdu while U.S. wolf packs decentralized control to a commodore commanding the wolf pack locally from one of the boats in the wolf pack itself. This was a significant difference in methods that is significant and worthy of recreating.

The U.S. submarine war in the Pacific was rich with developments in submarine warfare and was historically significant.

Cheers.


(added: USS Flasher Link)

http://www.rddesigns.com/249.html

[Torplexed]

Frankly, if Japan had ever gotten her escort/convoy act together (as they were starting to do late in the war) the USN probably would have been forced to adopt wolfpack tactics on the scale the Germans used.

As it was, the defective torpedoes the US submarine service was cursed with lulled the Japanese into a false sense of complaceny. However, by 1943 the combination of large numbers of mass-produced Gatos and a fully working torpedo came as a nasty shock to the IJN. Had the defects of the Mark 14 been found sooner perhaps Japan would have been forced to deal with the threat sooner. Might have given the campaign a whole different flavor.

[Harry Buttle]

Frankly, if Japan had ever gotten her escort/convoy act together (as they were starting to do late in the war) the USN probably would have been forced to adopt wolfpack tactics on the scale the Germans used.

Had the defects of the Mark 14 been found sooner perhaps Japan would have been forced to deal with the threat sooner. Might have given the campaign a whole different flavor.

Nope.

The Japs had a cultural bias against defence - the offence was all, they built a massive offensive force (Combined Fleet) and allocated almost no resources to defence, convoy operations, ASW, or research to support the above.

They were critically behind in radar and sonar, the IJN and IJA despised each other with a passion and frequently refused to cooperate. Their logistics were incompatible on most levels.

In reality the Japanese refused to deal with the fact of the merchant shipping disaster until there was almost no merchant ships left, I can't see anything changing that cultural attitude.

[Dietrich]

Yes... I'm disappointed. But I understand that other people want to play Pacific for a change and that there are a lot of Americans who want to play their home side. That's alright. SH4 can be a practise run for SH5. ;)

[Theta Sigma]

Yes... I'm disappointed. But I understand that other people want to play Pacific for a change and that there are a lot of Americans who want to play their home side. That's alright. SH4 can be a practise run for SH5. ;)

I'm American, and I want to play the Japanese side.

[Torplexed]

Nope.

The Japs had a cultural bias against defence - the offence was all, they built a massive offensive force (Combined Fleet) and allocated almost no resources to defence, convoy operations, ASW, or research to support the above.

They were critically behind in radar and sonar, the IJN and IJA despised each other with a passion and frequently refused to cooperate. Their logistics were incompatible on most levels.

In reality the Japanese refused to deal with the fact of the merchant shipping disaster until there was almost no merchant ships left, I can't see anything changing that cultural attitude.

Yeah...I know. But ya gotta throw the diehard IJN Fanboys a bone every now and then. ;)

Recently read a insightful commentary that stated in terms of quality, the IJN was perhaps the best navy in the world in the second half of 1941, but it was basically a one-shot navy lacked the strength in depth and the capacity to change and reconstitute itself.

[hunter301]

Notice How Most Of The Post From People Who Don't Want To See A Pto Are From The European Regions While We That Do Are Mostly From The Us!!

Hey..you Guys Had Your Turn With Sh3. You Guys Got 2 & 3 Dedicated To U-boats. Now It's Our Turn. Don't Be So Greedy, You've Got A Great Sim In Sh3. It's Way Overdue For An Updated Pto.

[hunter301]

But I think if SH IV will play in pacific theatre then some new wanted features should be not in the game....especially Wolfpacks. Submarine Warfare plays a minor role in the pacific and the idea of Wolfpacks in WWII are fully established by germans...so american sub wolfpacks, if it would be in the game, wouldn´t be historically correct.

Plz correct me if I´m wrong.

Greetz from Germany

Hi,

With respect, if submarine warfare interests you, you would probably enjoy reading up a bit on the U.S. submarine war in the Pacific. You might be surprised to learn that U.S. submarines were largly succesful in economically strangling Japan, something the U-boats valiently attempted, but failed, to do to the United Kingdom. Further, if memory serves, U.S. submarines sank more Japanese tonnage than all other classes of U.S. naval vessels combined, with some boat tonnages approaching and in the case of the USS Flasher (I believe), even exceeding 100,000 tons.

Lastly, U.S. submarines did operate in small wolf packs (2-4 boats) on a number of war patrols later in the war. I believe that they were operationally different in the application of tactics in that german wolfpacks tended to be centrally controlled by Bdu while U.S. wolf packs decentralized control to a commodore commanding the wolf pack locally from one of the boats in the wolf pack itself. This was a significant difference in methods that is significant and worthy of recreating.

The U.S. submarine war in the Pacific was rich with developments in submarine warfare and was historically significant.

Cheers.


(added: USS Flasher Link)

http://www.rddesigns.com/249.html

BOTTOM LINE...THE SUBMARINE SERVICE SAVED OUR COLLECTIVES ASSES AFTER THE JAPS SNUCK UP ON US AT PEARL!!

IF IT WASN'T FOR THE SILENT SERVICE COVERING FOR THE DECIMATED PACIFIC FLEET WE'D ALL BE EATING SUSHI AND BOWING TO THE EMPORER.

IF YOU READ SOME OF THE LARGER NOVELS OF THE TRUE LIFE PATROLS OF THE U.S. SUBS THESE GUYS WHERE NO SLOUCHES. THEY KICKED SOME SERIOUS TAIL.

IF IT MAKES FOR INTERESTING READING IT DAMN SURE WOULD MAKE FOR AN INTERESTING GAME.

ALSO I LIKE THE NEWER U.S. SUBS A LOT MORE THAN THE U-BOATS. WE WHERE DEFFINATELY WAY AHEAD IN TECHNOLOGY!!

[WOD]

BOTTOM LINE...THE SUBMARINE SERVICE SAVED OUR COLLECTIVES ASSES AFTER THE JAPS SNUCK UP ON US AT PEARL!!

IF IT WASN'T FOR THE SILENT SERVICE COVERING FOR THE DECIMATED PACIFIC FLEET WE'D ALL BE EATING SUSHI AND BOWING TO THE EMPORER.

IF YOU READ SOME OF THE LARGER NOVELS OF THE TRUE LIFE PATROLS OF THE U.S. SUBS THESE GUYS WHERE NO SLOUCHES. THEY KICKED SOME SERIOUS TAIL.

IF IT MAKES FOR INTERESTING READING IT DAMN SURE WOULD MAKE FOR AN INTERESTING GAME.

ALSO I LIKE THE NEWER U.S. SUBS A LOT MORE THAN THE U-BOATS. WE WHERE DEFFINATELY WAY AHEAD IN TECHNOLOGY!!


I´ve written PLZ CORRECT ME IF I´M WRONG

So no reason for u to cry in writing with whole big letters and agressive. To be wrong is a mistake but don´t have u ever been wrong?... OMG...I say nothing no more. Let it be good

Cheers

BTW I´ve written I like the Pacific theatre too, seems to be overreaded from u...Better keep ur eyes a bit more open and read a bit more carefully and don´t only read this what u want to read my friend!...no more comments from me.

[CWorth]

Disapointed..heck no.

I dont care what theater it is or what subs you control or even care what years they are using..as long as I get to control a submarine I am buying it.

[Tigrone]

Not at all. I am really looking forward to it, and if it's any good I will buy extra copies to give as presents to reward the maker.

[GenLeo]

I personally have not played sub games until i picked up SH3. Well there was MANY years ago 688 attack, but alas if SH4 is as fun and moddable as SH3 was then i will enjoy it. I personally like more of an arcade style so some of the mods helped me out. I was hoping SH4 would be a modern game so we could use fast attack subs and maybe get to launch some cruise missiles at land targets and anti-ship missiles. Would love to have a free mode cam shot of my sub launching a cruise missile at some terrorist camp. or pehaps launching a few tridents out of the U.S.S. Nebraska and never have to worry about north korea again. One thing i would LIKE to see in a game comes right out of a sub movie. I would lov eto tell my helmsman to plot a course through a canyon at high speed and go to free roam mode and watch my sub navigate through it like red route 1 in red october. Or perhaps having a more active anti-aircraft/anti-ship radio command. If you with in so many miles of a fleet or base you can call in a carrier air strike and just sit back and watch the fire works.:rock:

[DS]

+1 on 688 Attack sub - a primative sub sim, but a fun one.

Sounds like you need to get yourself a copy of Dangerous Waters, and get real friendly with the scenario editor!!

Sonalysts pretty well has the modern sub market locked up, and the Silent Hunter franchise covers gamer's World War II sub simming needs. If the Silent Hunter franchise went to moden boats, they would:

1) Be starting from scratch in many ways, rather than building on a good foundation
2) Be competing for market share on Sonalyst's well defended turf
3) Be leaving skippers with WWII interests high and dry.

Dangerous Waters is a great game with multiple playable subs from both sides of many different conflict possiblities, and a robust scneario editor. It should meet your needs. Generally, I find nuke subs to be more challenging but slower moving and requiring more caution due to increased chances of getting sunk in short order when detected.

For some faster moving encounters and real "sea spray in the face" action, I love WWII sub sims. What will be great about SH IV is it should have the best of SHIII, but with palm trees, coconuts, leis, and good times at the Royal Hawaiian added!! Running night surface attacks against darkened marus trying to slip by in shallow island coastal waters should be OK too...

[Magua]

From what I'm guessing SHIV should not have any big Convoy battles like we see now in SHIII. The Japanese did not send out lots of large Merchant Convoys. Single Ships, a few merchants with escorts, and of course Task Forces.

[Sailor Steve]

Completely agree. From my reading of the Japanese convoy documents the largest I've seen so far was around 30 ships, and that was troop movements for an invasion. There were extremes: up to twelve marus with no escort, as well as one or two merchants in company with a full task force which happened to be going the same way. Also, apparently a lot of escorts were converted yard ships and such, plus it looks like most of the merchants carried a few depth charges as well. There are several reports of torpedoes missing, followed by the lucky maru making a depth-charge run on his way to escaping.

[Harry Buttle]

IF IT WASN'T FOR THE SILENT SERVICE COVERING FOR THE DECIMATED PACIFIC FLEET WE'D ALL BE EATING SUSHI AND BOWING TO THE EMPORER.



No, not even close.

The Japanese lacked the logistics to invade even Hawaii or Australia (let alone push further), the Submarine service meant we won sooner and easier than we would without them, but not a lot sooner - if you look at US naval/aircraft production levels alone by late 1945 the Japanese would have been swamped anyway and by then the Japanese would also have been at war with the USSR (who agreed at Yalta to attack Japan within 90 days of Germany surrendering) and historically the USSR crushed Japanese forces in China and Korea (consider T-34/85 and IS-III v the best Japanese tanks) when they did enter the war.

The myth of the Japanese ability to invade Hawaii or Australia pops up again and again, but it is unsupported by fact.

[Torplexed]

It's interesting how many people overestimate Japan's military capabilities in World War II. Here was a nation already stretched to the limit still trying to absorb China, having to keep substantial troops in Manchuria to watch the Soviets, with only a few divisions to spare to conquer Malaya, the Dutch East Indies and the Philippines. (During the entire Malayan campaign they were actually outnumbered by the Commonwealth and Indian troops they were facing) Yet myths persists of them next invading Hawaii or the US West Coast if they had won at Midway...or of using the Aleutians as a springboard to invade Alaska. The Japanese Imperial Army Staff quickly squelched all Navy talk of invading Australia. The needed ten divisions just weren't there.

The reality was they had their hands full with what they had taken. Their initial victories over undermanned colonial garrisons had so easy they just didn't fully realize it. They had an excellent navy...but a navy alone can't grab you territory.

[Pants]

That is why japan launched a pre-emptive strike they wanted to decimate the pacfic fleet at pearl... then in later engagements they wanted a decisive battle where they could get the US to agree to cease hostilitys.

[Captain Vlad]

Perhaps what he should've said was that the entire Pacific Rim all the way down to but not including Australia would've been eating Sushi and bowing to the Emperor.

I'm anxious to get back to the Pacific. I have a general interest in WWII Naval Operations, so SH2 and 3, I was fine with them being in the Atlantic and played both heavily. It was a great rush, stalking convoys and sliding past Gibraltar and terrorizing the coast of Scotland, but I've done it twice a row. I want a return to the PTO with a modern, good-looking, well-produced game because it's been so long since I've sank a ship off Hong Kong or rescued a downed USN pilot.

[Harry Buttle]

Perhaps what he should've said was that the entire Pacific Rim all the way down to but not including Australia would've been eating Sushi and bowing to the Emperor.


Still not accurate, the US and or the USSR would have nailed them.

[djdemo]

Pacific is good...

Fewer boats, only 2% of US fleet was submarines - yet they sunk over half of all Japanese shipping sunk.

Read Clay Blair's book and you will all want to jump in with defective torps and hang out by Japanese harbours...

I only hope the game simulates the ebb and flow of the development of the US submarine arm, the tropedo progress and perhaps some of the Japanese campaigns etc.

Would be nice to have air-crew rescue, barrier missions, and Manila evacuation and supply run missions...

Anyway, we'll see - SHV will be back to U-boats so chill.

[Wilko]

SHV should be British in the Med :arrgh!:

[Torplexed]

SHV should be British in the Med :arrgh!:

Got my vote. :up:

[Kptlt_Lynch]

I'm dissapointed in it being PTO.
If they want to release a Pacific title, call it something else. Get a working copy of Destroyer Command and make all 3 titles multi-compatible. We could all go to war for weeks on end.

I think they should improve the exsisting SHIII platform, include resupply, more radio traffic and all the other things that SHIII falls a little short on.

I have zero intrest in the Pacific theater and won't purchase the next title. I hope they return to the Atlantic/German theme again in the furure, SHIII is great... but still comes up a little short in my opinion.

Lynch

[Drebbel]

I'm dissapointed in it being PTO.
If they want to release a Pacific title, call it something else.

Are you aware that the original Silent Hunter was a Pacific title ?

[Godalmighty83]

iam not dissapointed that its in the pto, i will be dissapointed if were stuck with one nation and just a handful of subs again.

[Immacolata]

Im also more interested in the atlantic, but that bit has been done to death. Perhaps the pacific will be a refreshing change for a bit. Afterall, we don't see a lot of subsims.

[Torplexed]

Seems to be a certain amount of disdain for the Pacific submarine war. Wonder if there is a similar split among flight sim enthusiasts? I love the Focke-Wulfes, Messerschmidts and Spitfires but I won't go near a Zero or a Wildcat?

[kapitanfred]

My opinion:

It's nice to have a change in scenery and looking at the war's perspective on the Allieds side. Even if SH I is a Pacific sub sim, it wouldn't match up with todays pc technology. The only things that come to mind that could affect the popularity is:

1. It's a short war compared to the Atlantic Campaign,
2. How dynamic the Pacific theatre will be,
3. How limited will the travel be in the Pacific theatre,

What I would love to have in SH IV is a starting year 1939 and using that period as a career starting point right to the ultimate beginning of the pacific war by creating mock exercises that leads up to a promotion in rank.

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm pretty sure it will be good. If the theatre really did turn out to be too dull for a game (which I hardly doubt), Ubisoft would just alter it until it was fun.

I'm not disappointed at all. In fact, I'm happy I'll see a change in theatre. I'm looking forward to cruising the Chinese coastline, sightseeing off Ilha Formosa, and visiting San Fransisco.

[Harry Buttle]

What I would love to have in SH IV is a starting year 1939 and using that period as a career starting point right to the ultimate beginning of the pacific war by creating mock exercises that leads up to a promotion in rank.

USN pre war sub doctrine was such that it encouraged excessive timidity in boat commanders, a great many of them were sacked during the early part of the war, basically for doing exactly what they had trained pre war to do.

[SubSerpent]

I think that in SHIV we should be Cuban's trying to defect to Florida in a vintage 1957 floating pickup truck that has torpedos and a 105mm cannon to take out any US coastguard boats that stands in our way.


"Damn you America, we shall have our freedom one day and to be able to taste a giant Gordido with sour cream from Taco Bell one day. Damn You!"

[Subnuts]

I don't understand why so many people assume that the RL Pacific submarine campaign accomplished nothing. If it accomplished nothing, then why were the Japanese using battleships to run small amounts of oil back to the mainland, and using hospital ships to carry rubber and bauxite, in the last few months of the war? Would they have attempted to make oil out of potatoes if submarines hadn't seriously impeded their supply lines?

[Harry Buttle]

I don't understand why so many people assume that the RL Pacific submarine campaign accomplished nothing. If it accomplished nothing, then why were the Japanese using battleships to run small amounts of oil back to the mainland, and using hospital ships to carry rubber and bauxite, in the last few months of the war? Would they have attempted to make oil out of potatoes if submarines hadn't seriously impeded their supply lines?

Its not that they didn't achieve anything, its that the things they achieved would have been achieved in a similar timeframe by the vast amount of US production coming on line late war.

Equally it is interesting to consider the results if the US had built nothing larger than a cruiser after Pearl Harbour and diverted all that extra production into submarines...

[Captain Vlad]

Still not accurate, the US and or the USSR would have nailed them.

Discounting for a second the atomic bomb, I don't entirely agree. We could've defeated a more deeply entrenched version of the Japanese, sure, but there'd have been a point where we'd have decided it wasn't worth it. Had they delayed meaningful offensive action by us long enough, that could've happened.

The Soviet Union didn't have the Naval strength to take on Japan.

[Harry Buttle]

Still not accurate, the US and or the USSR would have nailed them.

Discounting for a second the atomic bomb, I don't entirely agree. We could've defeated a more deeply entrenched version of the Japanese, sure, but there'd have been a point where we'd have decided it wasn't worth it. Had they delayed meaningful offensive action by us long enough, that could've happened.


As the war in Europe was being fought to a bitter end during the winter of 1944-45, there was still uncertainty that the Manhattan Project would succeed in its aim of producing atomic weapons. By early 1945, plans were already underway for an American invasion of the Japanese mainland, “Operation Olympic (http://www.neswa.org.au/Library/Articles/olympic.htm) ” (the first part of the wider “Operation Downfall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall) ”), which was to start with the southern island of Kyushu.

The high American death toll in the much smaller invasions of the Marianas, Iwo Jima, Okinawa and elsewhere led the US army's Chemical Warfare Service (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/chem.htm) to devise a plan to use massive chemical weapon attacks to support the invasion of the mainland.

The details (http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/175.html) were contained in A Study of the Possible Use of Toxic Gas in Operation Olympic, an anodyne title for an extraordinary proposal that involved two different if almost simultaneous uses for thousands of tons of chemical weapons. The main weapons to be used were two chemical blister agents, phosgene and mustard gas, together with hydrogen cyanide and cyanogen chloride.

At the time of the invasion itself, tactical strike aircraft would drop nearly 9,000 tons of chemical weapons on the defending troops in the first fifteen days, with further attacks planned at the rate of just under 5,000 tons every thirty days from then on. As US troops came ashore, they would bring in howitzers and mortars that could deliver an additional forty-five tons a day of poisonous gas on Japanese positions.

This represented a massive use of chemical weapons, but it was dwarfed in scale by the proposed attacks on Japanese cities. In what the document described as an "initial gas blitz", long-range B-29 and B-24 strategic bombers would attack a large number of cities across Japan – starting with Tokyo, fifteen days before the ground invasion started. Over the next, initial fifteen-day period, over 56,000 tons of gas bombs would be dropped on cities, followed by almost 24,000 tons of gas bombs dropped every month from then on until the war ended or all the planned targets had been hit.

Although this plan (http://www.maproom.com/journals/jsecret.htm) was completed only in June 1945, it originated in work started by the Chemical Warfare Service more than eighteen months earlier; as early as April 1944, a detailed study – Selected Aerial Objectives for Retaliatory Gas Attacks on Japan – had been completed assessing the vulnerability of cities such as Tokyo, Nagoya and Osaka to gas attack. The analysts believed that their densely populated residential areas, with narrow streets and few open spaces, were particularly susceptible to chemical warfare. Moreover, mustard gas is readily absorbed by wood, and Japanese wooden houses would have been very difficult to decontaminate.
The intention was to maximise casualties (http://www.randomhouse.com/pantheon/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780394751726) , mostly civilian, and the study stated:
"The Gas Attack Program is aimed primarily at causing the maximum number of casualties, crippling transportation and public services, complicating and delaying the repair of HE [high explosive] bomb damage and making targets more vulnerable to incendiary attack."
By June 1945, the full gas-attack plan was submitted to Major General William N Porter (http://www.4point2.org/firstshot.htm) , head of the Chemical Warfare Service, detailing fifty urban and industrial targets, including twenty-five cities that were particularly susceptible to gas attack. According to the report, "Gas attacks of the size and intensity recommended on these 250 square miles of urban population … might easily kill 5,000,000 people and injure that many more."

The chemical warfare attacks were never implemented, but the programme was in no sense theoretical. While the plans were being formulated, much effort was put into manufacturing and stockpiling the weapons so that they would be ready if needed. The first chemical weapon plant had been opened in April 1944 (http://www.vnh.org/MedAspChemBioWar/chapters/chapter_2.htm) at Warners, New York state, initially producing about eighty tons of poison gas a week. This was later increased to over 400 tons a week, and more plants were built so that by 1945 the US army had over fifty million chemical artillery shells and the US army air corps had more than a million bombs and 100,000 aircraft spray tanks.

The dropping of the atom bombs (http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060742844) on Hiroshima and Nagasaki remains controversial to this day. The fact that many more atom bombs would have been used against Japanese cities if the imperial government had not surrendered when it did indicates the determination of the US leadership to end the war with the lowest possible American casualties, whatever happened in Japan.
-----------------

Without the atomic bombs gas would have been effective.




The Soviet Union didn't have the Naval strength to take on Japan.

The USSR didn't need naval strength, they had the ability to easily overrun Japanese mainland possessions and then use their overwhelming airpower to destroy Japan.

[Captain Vlad]

Without the atomic bombs gas would have been effective.

The point of my post was not that we couldn't have subdued the Japanese Home Islands in 1945-46 through some method or the other. The point was that an early and decisive Japanese victory (at Midway, for instance), could have prevented us from taking the offensive against them as early as we did. That would've given the Japanese a lot of time to entrench on every single island we had to take to get into a position where such a massive gas attack would be possible.

Hence, they could've made a Pacific campaign more trouble for us than it was worth. If I remember right, that was the basis of their entire strategy.

Note, however, that some believe that either an invasion or a huge gas attack or even the A-Bomb were unnecessary. The Navy...mostly the submarines...had already crippled Japan's merchant marine to the level that they could not continue to feed their people, much less their war machines.

All we would've had to do in '45 is wait.



The USSR didn't need naval strength, they had the ability to easily overrun Japanese mainland possessions and then use their overwhelming airpower to destroy Japan.
The USSR required Naval Strength to invade Japan. Air Power alone couldn't have done it...strategic air power theorists insisted we could knock Germany out of the war with our own bombing campaign, but we never managed to do so (though we did divert a lot of valuable planes and personnel to the German home front) and our strategic bombing capabilites were much greater than the Soviet's at the time.

The USSR couldn't have subdued Japan with air power alone.

[Harry Buttle]

Without the atomic bombs gas would have been effective.

The point of my post was not that we couldn't have subdued the Japanese Home Islands in 1945-46 through some method or the other. The point was that an early and decisive Japanese victory (at Midway, for instance), could have prevented us from taking the offensive against them as early as we did. That would've given the Japanese a lot of time to entrench on every single island we had to take to get into a position where such a massive gas attack would be possible.


I understand your point, but its a common misconception - most people don't realise just how OVERWHELMING the US industrial advantage was, had the US lost decisively at Midway (a worst case scenario) - the United States Navy still would have broken even with Japan in carriers and naval air power by about September 1943. Nine months later, by the middle of 1944, the U.S. Navy would have enjoyed a nearly two-to-one superiority in carrier aircraft capacity! Not only that, but with newer, better aircraft designs.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm



Hence, they could've made a Pacific campaign more trouble for us than it was worth. If I remember right, that was the basis of their entire strategy.



The problem of course is that the US still had the ability to cut off and starve those garrisons, invading only the few that are needed.



Note, however, that some believe that either an invasion or a huge gas attack or even the A-Bomb were unnecessary. The Navy...mostly the submarines...had already crippled Japan's merchant marine to the level that they could not continue to feed their people, much less their war machines.

All we would've had to do in '45 is wait.



Politically that was a dangerous move, the American people wanted the war to end.



The USSR didn't need naval strength, they had the ability to easily overrun Japanese mainland possessions and then use their overwhelming airpower to destroy Japan.



The USSR required Naval Strength to invade Japan. Air Power alone couldn't have done it...strategic air power theorists insisted we could knock Germany out of the war with our own bombing campaign, but we never managed to do so (though we did divert a lot of valuable planes and personnel to the German home front) and our strategic bombing capabilites were much greater than the Soviet's at the time.

The USSR couldn't have subdued Japan with air power alone.

I'm sorry Vlad, but you've just argued above that the USA could blockade Japan into submission, there is nothing to prevent the USSR doing the same by air and with mines - they also had the advantage of being a police state where the opinions of the public count for little.

[Captain Vlad]

I understand your point, but its a common misconception - most people don't realise just how OVERWHELMING the US industrial advantage was, had the US lost decisively at Midway (a worst case scenario) - the United States Navy still would have broken even with Japan in carriers and naval air power by about September 1943. Nine months later, by the middle of 1944, the U.S. Navy would have enjoyed a nearly two-to-one superiority in carrier aircraft capacity! Not only that, but with newer, better aircraft designs.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm


I am aware of how muscular '40's US industry was and just how huge of a fleet we eventually cranked out. I agree that, regardless of a crippling carrier loss early in the war, we could've defeated Japan.

All I'm saying is that an early loss might very well have made us decide NOT to. You pointed out Russia's advantage in being a totalitarian state...we didn't have that advantage, and the European war was destructive enough...if the Japanese had entrenched themselves firmly enough in their new possesions I'm not sure we would've had the public support to continue.

Especially if they neutralized Pearl Harbor as a usable base, a possiblity if they'd taken Midway.

Hence the Japanese strategy. They couldn't defeat us, but they could make it too expensive for use to defeat them.


The problem of course is that the US still had the ability to cut off and starve those garrisons, invading only the few that are needed.


We did that, with the exception of the Philipines, and it still took us four years of offensive to make it within arms reach of Japan.


Politically that was a dangerous move, the American people wanted the war to end.


Yes, indeed it would've been.

I'm sorry Vlad, but you've just argued above that the USA could blockade Japan into submission, there is nothing to prevent the USSR doing the same by air and with mines - they also had the advantage of being a police state where the opinions of the public count for little.

Blockading the entire nation of Japan by air isn't something '40's technology would've been capable of. You're talking covering the lion's share of the coast 24/7 with aircraft that are not night and all-weather...and most of which do not have sufficient range to operate against Japan from Soviet held bases. Mines are good to increase attrition, but you can't seal off a whole country with them.

You'd need ships or submarines, a lot of them, to effectively blockade Japan. The aircraft of the period didn't have the stamina.

[Harry Buttle]

I am aware of how muscular '40's US industry was and just how huge of a fleet we eventually cranked out. I agree that, regardless of a crippling carrier loss early in the war, we could've defeated Japan.

All I'm saying is that an early loss might very well have made us decide NOT to. You pointed out Russia's advantage in being a totalitarian state...we didn't have that advantage, and the European war was destructive enough...if the Japanese had entrenched themselves firmly enough in their new possesions I'm not sure we would've had the public support to continue.

Especially if they neutralized Pearl Harbor as a usable base, a possiblity if they'd taken Midway.

Hence the Japanese strategy. They couldn't defeat us, but they could make it too expensive for use to defeat them.



Japan had no ability to neutralise Pearl Harbour by invasion or blockade (their logistics were not up to it) and if they had taken Midway it would have just been another logistic burden upon them.

Early/mid war the US public had the will to win (having been 'Pearl Harboured'), late war Japan had no ability to inflict a significant defeat on the US.



The problem of course is that the US still had the ability to cut off and starve those garrisons, invading only the few that are needed.




We did that, with the exception of the Philipines, and it still took us four years of offensive to make it within arms reach of Japan.



and it wouldn't have taken much longer had Midway been lost.



I'm sorry Vlad, but you've just argued above that the USA could blockade Japan into submission, there is nothing to prevent the USSR doing the same by air and with mines - they also had the advantage of being a police state where the opinions of the public count for little.



Blockading the entire nation of Japan by air isn't something '40's technology would've been capable of. You're talking covering the lion's share of the coast 24/7 with aircraft that are not night and all-weather...



No, I'm just talking about blockading and mining the ports by air, easily achievable with 40s tech.



and most of which do not have sufficient range to operate against Japan from Soviet held bases.



Given the demonstrated ability of the USSR to roll up the Japanese land forces, getting land bases in range is the least of the Soviets problems.



Mines are good to increase attrition, but you can't seal off a whole country with them.



You can when the country in question is as pathetic at anti mine warfare as Japan was - the Japanese incompetence at mine clearance was such that it made their ASW efforts look effective.

[Safe-Keeper]

But then there's the cost and effort of removing those mines.

"OK, Japan's surrendering, now if only we hadn't mined all the docks we could've started re-building her and giving her supplies to get back on its feet!"

Whoops.

There's also the question of whether or not a blockade and the following starvation and shortage would demoralize the Japanese enough. Look at for how long North Korea has been starving its citizenry - you'd have thought it'd have an effect on them and made them capitulate, but oh no, Kim just doesn't care about his people. A couple of atomic bombs, on the other hand, have much more of a psychological effect (and only affects the city it's dropped upon, unlike a blockade, which might affect a whole country negatively and thus do far more damage).

[Harry Buttle]

But then there's the cost and effort of removing those mines.

"OK, Japan's surrendering, now if only we hadn't mined all the docks we could've started re-building her and giving her supplies to get back on its feet!"

Whoops.



Historically thats pretty much what happened, the US went in for naval minelaying (by air) in a big way once they were in range to do so.

The US had the advantage of being good at minesweeping and knowing where most of the mines were dropped (and what types were dropped there).

Compared to the cost and effort of getting the war won, its a pretty trivial thing.



There's also the question of whether or not a blockade and the following starvation and shortage would demoralize the Japanese enough. Look at for how long North Korea has been starving its citizenry - you'd have thought it'd have an effect on them and made them capitulate, but oh no, Kim just doesn't care about his people. A couple of atomic bombs, on the other hand, have much more of a psychological effect (and only affects the city it's dropped upon, unlike a blockade, which might affect a whole country negatively and thus do far more damage).

A blockade has the advantage of being easy (against Japan), Japan had few natural resources so its pretty simple to concentrate on shipping, ship yards, docks - by doing so you bottle up Japan until they realise that there is no way out, but if they don't surrender the USSR always had the option of using nerve agents (after capturing the German nerve gas plant at Dyenfurth in August 1944 and shipping it to the USSR) - this of course ignores any existing Soviet run CW programs.

[Eichenlaub]

To return to the original question: I am Dutch and I am glad SHIV will be a Pacific Theatre campaign. I shall explain why:

1) There have been two Atlantic games out in succession. Seeing as the Atlantic and PTO will always compete for attention, it would be advisable to switch between them every other game.

2) I like the change! There's nothing like a little variety to spice up life! A PTO title will only help to whet my appetite for SHV which will undoubtedly be an Atlantic game again.

3) The original SH was about the PTO. It's only fitting to see SHIV return to the original theatre.

4) Personally, I have more interest in the Atlantic campaign, but the PTO does have something for me: more chances of engaging big warships, easier pickings in terms of undefended targets, a wider variety of ships (seeing as small coastal vessels played a more significant part in the operations there) and best of all, more types of missions. Missions that couldn't be done in the Atlantic.

5) A chance to play a game where I don't have to defend myself for playing the German side. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind playing the Germans. It's just that some people in my environment have a hard time understanding it.

6) A chance to play -hopefully- as a Dutch submarine commander. Sure, the Dutch commanders didn't produce spectacular aces like the Germans or Americans did, but as a force, they performed well enough in light of their low numbers. There are very few games in which you can play as the Dutch (come to think of it, I can only list the excellent Microprose games Pirates! and Colonization from the back of my mind) and sailing a K class submarine would be a fun and unique feature (if implemented) that would certainly cater to my personal nationalist feelings!:rock:

7) Playing computer games stimulate my quest for history: a PTO game will likely inspire me to seek information on the American submarine campaign.

8) The feel is very different, and one should notice it. I fondly remember the "feel" of Silent Service II and I wonder if SHIV can recreate that.

All in all, I would love to revisit the PTO. I might not buy the game when it first hits the shelves, but I shall certainly buy it within 6 months or a year.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[djdemo]

The PTO is going to be great...

Seriously, read SILENT VICTORY by Clay Blair to set the scene, then pick up the Osprey titles like "US Submarine Crewman 1941-45" to get some empathy with the crews.

My grandad was Royal Navy and was in the Atlantic. My whole childhood was spent interested in the ETO and Battle of the Atlantic.

I knew nothing about the Pacific, and never realised that the US had many subs in the Pacific.

Anyway, this was very much the case - even after two degrees in military related matters.

My primary hobby is board-war-gaming rather than computer wargaming, and I recently picked up a copy of 'Silent War' because it sounded interesting; http://www.compassgames.com/silent_war.htm

Blew me away... it takes a LONG time to play the full campaign, but it generated a massive interest for me in the PTO and US sub campaign. I've gone out and bought several books, including SILENT VICTORY and have to say that this is an amazing topic.

I thought I would always be interested in U-Boats, but I have to say, the story in the Pacific is very interesting - so few subs, yet the US submarine service delivers a knock-out blow to Japan - and all this with defective torpedoes not fixed until 1943!


The story is interesting becuase in a nut-shell... following WW1, the US shuns unrestricted submarine warfare as immoral (Lusitania etc). Also, you have war plan orange which says teh Japanese attack the Philippines, the US local forces hold them there, whilst the US Pacific Fleet steams down from Pearl for a decisive battle.

There is no economic blockade in that plan so subs are 'fleet submarines' and will act as scouts and screening forces much like cavarly on a land battle.

BUT - these fleet submarines built for long range, high speed and capable of indepedent patrol are ironically ideal for long-range commerce raiding... Ironic because they were desgined as the antithesis of the Gemran paradigm of submarine employment.

Anyway, on December 8th, the US Navy has no fleet to sail to the Philippines for decisve battle and the SUbmarines are the only offensive arm - and the order to the Navy is "Conduct unrestricted air and submarine warfare agains Japan" - so article 22 of the Washtingon treaty goes out the window.

But the US navy has only trained to take on captial ships, and in a very cautious matter - so early in the war the peace-time commanders make cautious sonar apporaches - they have no trainign in surface night attacks, and are not aggressive because peace time exercises over-estimated Japanese ASW effectinvess.

In addition there is a shortage of torpedoes - and these torpedoes have three simulatnious faults - which means captains do not fire spreads against merchant vessels, so have a very low hit rate as the magnetic exploders do not work and the torps run 10 feet deeper than normal.

So the war is a very much trying to replace skippers with younger more aggresive skippers, whilst developing a strategy for a submarine campaign, whilst trying to develop the torpedoes that work.

The US starts the war with the right subs - the Tambor fleet boats, which are soon replaced by the Gato class... 6 forward tubes, 4 aft tubes - more firepower than the IX class, and more range and endurance...


Anyway, until last year I had no interest what-so-ever in the PTO, much less American submarines... as a Brit I'm happy in the Atlantic or on an HMS Sub in the Med...

But trust me, the PTO will be a welcome topic - and providing the game captures some of the unique US experience in the PTO, including the change in 1943 where the US has the right skippers, the right torps, the right fleet boat - and wolf pack tactics, then we are in for a real treat!

My Silent War AAR can be found here...

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@507.9p8KcEVOd9g.6@.1dd0f6b2/0


But, we are all interested in WW2 submarines - well here is the Navy that with less than 1/3 of German boats actually bloacked an island economy and pretty much swept the seas clear of Japanese commerce.

Read those books, give Silent War a try, and I think you'll all be PTO converts!!!

[Captain Vlad]

Japan had no ability to neutralise Pearl Harbour by invasion or blockade (their logistics were not up to it) and if they had taken Midway it would have just been another logistic burden upon them.

Pearl could've been rendered unusable as a base by bombing, mining, etc. They didn't have to blockade it or invade Hawaii...they just had to make it a place where no idiot would base major capital ship assets.

Having Midway would've given them an airfield within striking range of Pearl at a time when they were capable of siezing air superiority. Also, them taking Midway implies that they eliminated our carriers during the attempt to capture it, which leaves us in a bad position for about a year.

Early/mid war the US public had the will to win (having been 'Pearl Harboured'), late war Japan had no ability to inflict a significant defeat on the US.
I agree, but that doesn't rule out an early Japanese victory. They could've hurt us enough that a delay in taking the offensive might've made a Pacific reconquest too expensive (esp. politically). That's been my main point since this discussion started.

No, I'm just talking about blockading and mining the ports by air, easily achievable with 40s tech.
Mining, sure. Blockading, no. Again, air power at the time didn't have the range, the staying power to effectively seal off an nation like Japan. Air power is very powerful but there are some things it's just not good at, such as establishing the constant presence neccesary for an effective blockade.

Given the demonstrated ability of the USSR to roll up the Japanese land forces, getting land bases in range is the least of the Soviets problems.
It's a long flight to Japan from Korea or China. Especially when we're talking about covering the Eastern shoreline of Japan.

Anyhow, I'll cease cluttering up this thread now. If you wanna continue the discussion, feel free to PM me.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Here is a link to the first Silent Hunter.
http://www.valoratsea.com/Silhun.htm

[WilhelmSchulz.]

This is a actual mesege receved by the USS Tang.

Tang will join skate and sunfish as a wolf pack to attack convoy of six tankers and escorted by sixteen destoryers......

now how can you say that would be easy/boring? It was 1943

[Harry Buttle]

Japan had no ability to neutralise Pearl Harbour by invasion or blockade (their logistics were not up to it) and if they had taken Midway it would have just been another logistic burden upon them.

Pearl could've been rendered unusable as a base by bombing, mining, etc. They didn't have to blockade it or invade Hawaii...they just had to make it a place where no idiot would base major capital ship assets.

Japan did not have the logistics to do it, carriers don't have the weapons load nor the fuel to run a sustained campaign like that and Japan didn't have the RAS expertise to do it.

Having Midway would've given them an airfield within striking range of Pearl at a time when they were capable of siezing air superiority. Also, them taking Midway implies that they eliminated our carriers during the attempt to capture it, which leaves us in a bad position for about a year.

ROTFLMAO – Midway wasn't in 'striking range' of Pearl it was at the absolute extreme range of Japanese fighters – meaning that the bombers would be effectively unescorted, also Midway wasn't capable of supporting many a/c and to run a sustained bombing campaign from there would require a major logistics effort a long way from Japan.
Japan wasn't capable of seizing air superiority and them taking Midway (aside from adding another logistic burden to Japans problems) just implies that the USN decided that it wasn't worth the cost of holding.
See - http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm)

Early/mid war the US public had the will to win (having been 'Pearl Harboured'), late war Japan had no ability to inflict a significant defeat on the US.
I agree, but that doesn't rule out an early Japanese victory. They could've hurt us enough that a delay in taking the offensive might've made a Pacific reconquest too expensive (esp. politically). That's been my main point since this discussion started.

I'm afraid the fact that the US was reading Japans codes does rather rule out a decisive Japanese victory, but a tactical defeat was hardly going to change the fury the US people felt over Pearl Harbour, and frankly it didn't matter after PH, the US was at war and the next US elections were in 1944 – by then the war in the Pacific was always going to have been decided.







No, I'm just talking about blockading and mining the ports by air, easily achievable with 40s tech.
Mining, sure. Blockading, no. Again, air power at the time didn't have the range, the staying power to effectively seal off an nation like Japan. Air power is very powerful but there are some things it's just not good at, such as establishing the constant presence neccesary for an effective blockade.

US air power did exactly that to Japan in WW2, once bases were established within range, the USSR based out of Vladivostock and from bases easily siezed in China and Korea could do the same.

Given the demonstrated ability of the USSR to roll up the Japanese land forces, getting land bases in range is the least of the Soviets problems.
It's a long flight to Japan from Korea or China. Especially when we're talking about covering the Eastern shoreline of Japan.

But a shorter flight than from the Marianas, where it was done from historically.

[Captain Vlad]

Anyway, I'll cease cluttering up the thread now. If you want to continue this discussion feel free to PM me.

Harry, I can answer pretty much all those points, but again...*points upward*

Click the little thing that says 'private messages', right from the big Navy Field ad.:)

[Harry Buttle]

Anyway, I'll cease cluttering up the thread now. If you want to continue this discussion feel free to PM me.

Harry, I can answer pretty much all those points, but again...*points upward*

Click the little thing that says 'private messages', right from the big Navy Field ad.:)

a. no you can't.

b. you made the initial argument in public, support it in public.

[Captain Vlad]

b. you made the initial argument in public, support it in public.

No.:) Quite frankly, this could go on for years with neither of us changing the others mind. I have no problem with a continuing argument of such length, but I can take a hint from others.

Wanna debate this, PM me. If you wanna drop it, then drop it. Either way is fine with me.

a. No you can't

If that's your opinion, why are you even bothering to argue with me?:rotfl:

[cmdrk]

This is a actual mesege receved by the USS Tang.

Tang will join skate and sunfish as a wolf pack to attack convoy of six tankers and escorted by sixteen destoryers......

now how can you say that would be easy/boring? It was 1943
To help steal back this thread, I agree with the above quote.
Lets face it. The Pacific theater has all the elements for a sub sim. Targets to sink, escorts to avoid, and your sub can die.

This theater has it's own challenges. Early in the war it was getting ships down with bad torpedos. The torpedo's magnetic exploder worked only half the time and the contact exploder failed in a 90% hit. So successful US skippers had to aim for more glancing blows. Then as the war went on, there was more convoys with more escorts. Ships tried to keep to shallow waters. USS Tang patrolled with 3000 yds of the shore so it could get a shot.
SH4 can be made a challenge - the Pacific sub war was not a cake walk.

[Safe-Keeper]

Not to mention the battles. Midway, Pearl Harbour, the Phillipines, Adak Island...

If they re-enact all the big battles and invasions as well as the lesser skirmishes, encounters, sinkings, etc. that have made their way into the history books (sinking of poor old USS Indianapolis, for example), there'll be enough to keep you busy.

Imagine sinking one of the Japanese carriers before Pearl Harbour:arrgh!:!

[Threadfin]

This is a actual mesege receved by the USS Tang.

Tang will join skate and sunfish as a wolf pack to attack convoy of six tankers and escorted by sixteen destoryers......

now how can you say that would be easy/boring? It was 1943

This was most certainly not an actual message recieved by Tang. Please read that passage a little more closely.

[cmdrk]

This is a actual mesege receved by the USS Tang.

Tang will join skate and sunfish as a wolf pack to attack convoy of six tankers and escorted by sixteen destoryers......

now how can you say that would be easy/boring? It was 1943
This was most certainly not an actual message recieved by Tang. Please read that passage a little more closely.
I had to double check , but Tang's war patrols all took place in 1944 about Jan to Oct.
Still there were some fair size convoys later in the war. Not with 16 escorts - more like 6.

[cmdrk]

Not to mention the battles. Midway, Pearl Harbour, the Phillipines, Adak Island...

If they re-enact all the big battles and invasions as well as the lesser skirmishes, encounters, sinkings, etc. that have made their way into the history books (sinking of poor old USS Indianapolis, for example), there'll be enough to keep you busy.

Imagine sinking one of the Japanese carriers before Pearl Harbour:arrgh!:!

Or Leyte, several subs took shots at the Japanese BB task force - Sinking 2 CA's and damaging 2 or 3 other CA's.

[Threadfin]

Those boats were Darter and Dace. Darter attacked first and sank Kurita's flagship CA Atago. Darter also damaged CA Takao. Dace attacked next and sank CA Maya.

Dace's skipper, Claggett, is famous for saying, as he watched the force through his scope "We'll let these go by, they're only heavy cruisers" or words to that effect. He mistook Maya for a battleship. (I might have that mixed up and Darter's skipper McClintock may have said it)
Musashi and Yamato were in this force but escaped attack, for a little while anyway in the case of Musashi. Darter ran aground in an attempt to end-around the damaged Takao, and her crew taken off by Dace.


In regards to the post before about Tang being ordered to form a wolfpack and attack 6 tankers ecorted by 16 DDs... This was a joke played on the crew by the officers. They made up the message, then dropped it on the floor, allowing just enough time for a crewman to read it, before snapping it back up. Word spread quickly and the crew was understandably apprehensive about what lay ahead.

The rest of the message said something about how Tang was to draw off the escort and use her superior depth to evade, while Skate and SUnfish attacked the tankers.

[cmdrk]

In regards to the post before about Tang being ordered to form a wolfpack and attack 6 tankers ecorted by 16 DDs... This was a joke played on the crew by the officers. They made up the message, then conviently dropped it on the floor, allowing just enough time for a crewman to read it, before snapping it back up. Word spread quickly and the crew was understandably apprehensive about what lay ahead.

:lol: I've never read about that before, but it sounds like something a sub officer would pull. What book had this bit of history in it?

[Threadfin]

O'Kane's Clear the Bridge :)

[cmdrk]

O'Kane's Clear the Bridge :)

Thanks. I'll have to give it a read.

[Safe-Keeper]

Heh, inspired by that, I've made a 1944-based Caribbean mission where your Type VII-C is to go single-handedly up against a convoy of six heavy tankers escorted by sixteen Elite destroyers (at least the AI level of the tankers is "Poor":p).

The convoy's transitting from the Panama Canal to Galveston, where it'll pick up fuel (from Houston's oil fields). You're south of Cuba, and instructed to intercept the convoy and sink three of the tankers.

And it's God-awful hard:o! My best attempt so far managed to sink one tanker before being rammed to death by a destroyer. Just getting within visual range of the damned tankers is a nearly impossible feat!

I'm thinking of uploading it just to give you the challenge of your life (it's so hard you'll laugh:arrgh!:!), but I have to finish it first and add some extra stuff (like more ports, traffic, etc.).

[marcel68]

a warfare without the germans(sweinehunden) is not a warfare.
maybe because i am duths but give me the european theater.
so much to improve normaly sailmen smoke on deck , the ocean sky in sh3-gw-rub
is also not perfect , don,t sea de mine,s ,
but i like subsim very lot , iam a beginner but a learn very wel from youre website,s

[Subnuts]

a warfare without the germans(sweinehunden) is not a warfare.


I want to promote this to Post of the Month. :rotfl:

[Torplexed]

a warfare without the germans(sweinehunden) is not a warfare.
maybe because i am duths but give me the european theater.
Please tell me you meant Deutsch...not duths.

I'm curious to find if there is anyone who hates the ETO and won't play anywhere but the Pacific. :hmm:

[DeepSix]

Yeah, it was called World War II, but that really doesn't matter....:p

[Captain Vlad]

I'm curious to find if there is anyone who hates the ETO and won't play anywhere but the Pacific. :hmm:

I can give you a yes, but it's a secondhand yes. Friend of mine doesn't mind playing the Germans on some games, but has never been that fond of being an Atlantic U-Boat commander. I've tried to get him to play SH III, but to no avail.

He's a big WWII Sub fan, though...books, movies, games, you name it.

I, honestly, prefer the Pacific theater, but I'm happy to helm a U-Boat occasionally. Am looking forward to the German Schnellboats in Knights of the Sea, too.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Sub Losses of WWII(Pac)
http://www.valoratsea.com/losses1.htm

[CheckSix]

Hmm, US lost less than 50 subs to enemy action, compared to almost 800 u boats lost.
Turkey shoot? what with the long distances in the PTO, it sounds rather boring.

[CheckSix]

Been thinking about this and according to my limited knowledge of the PTO,
but if the sim is historically accurate, we will be getting:

no milch cows
no regular convoys
no wolfpacks
no advanced asw weapons (hedgehog, squid, foxers etc.)
no advanced asw techniques
no hunter killer groups
no escort carriers
no homing or pattern running torps
no enemy airborne radar
rudimentary enemy surface radar
NO MINIATURE SUBS. :down: (last ditch k verband ops off Dutch coast for example)


but we may get to play with the lights & heating ;)
Hope they add currents / tides and pretty up the sea bed then.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Been thinking about this and according to my limited knowledge of the PTO,
but if the sim is historically accurate, we will be getting:

no milch cows
no regular convoys
no wolfpacks
no advanced asw weapons (hedgehog, squid, foxers etc.)
no advanced asw techniques
no hunter killer groups
no escort carriers
no homing or pattern running torps
no enemy airborne radar
rudimentary enemy surface radar
NO MINIATURE SUBS. :down: (last ditch k verband ops off Dutch coast for example)


but we may get to play with the lights & heating ;)
Hope they add currents / tides and pretty up the sea bed then.

Ehem. You are wrong on sevral of thoes points.

The U.S Navy adoped the tactics of wolf packs around 43-44 due to the sucess of U-Boats use of it.
However ComSubPac was not in charge of these pacs. A Seinor Sub comander and he comand the pac.

Although not as well known as the EscortCairrer based ones the alies had, The IJN did have HK Groups constining of sevral DD's in key Empire Areas.

There was airborne radar. On her last patrol the was attacked by a bomber in the dead of night. The bomber mised the sub by a few feet foward. And a few feet aft a hour or so later. Comander Dic.k O'Kane contributed the misses to the fact that the radar image might be lost on the last few seconds of the run(ie the closer it gets to the sub) like the SJ radar on High(alt.) targets.

And there where many mini subs at the end of the war used to find subs.

:ping: :doh: :hmm: :know:

[Onkel Neal]

Been thinking about this and according to my limited knowledge of the PTO,
but if the sim is historically accurate, we will be getting:


no milch cows - correct
no regular convoys - incorrect, through most of the war, steady streams of convoys
no wolfpacks - incorrect, from 1944 on, 3~4 sub wolfpacks were common, and successful
no advanced asw weapons (hedgehog, squid, foxers etc.) - well, hmmm.... the Japanese did use grapple hooks with bombs they slid down the cable :lol:
no advanced asw techniques - incorrect
no hunter killer groups - not as expert as the Brits, true, but the Japanese did have some h/k teams and they became more effective from 1943 on.
no escort carriers - gasp! incorrect, Japs had numerous cruisers and whaling ships converted to escort carriers
no homing or pattern running torps - well, the US did have circular running torps ;)
no enemy airborne radar - near the end of the war, some (I think)
rudimentary enemy surface radar - true
NO MINIATURE SUBS. - Kiatan!

Unlike the U-boat war, there will be numerous warship encounters, naval battles, invasion landings, special missions, sampans, accurate intel from HQ, numerous islands and reefs to navigate (not just big empty ocean and easy sailing), plus, you will be playing the good guys... plus, who knows, maybe if you take a periscope sigting in Nagasaki bay around Aug 9, 1945... ;)

Hey, a true subsim enthusiast should see this a great way to experience new submarine warfare.

:up: cheers
Neal

[Onkel Neal]

O'Kane's Clear the Bridge :)

Thanks. I'll have to give it a read.

Yes, very good book. If you've never read a US sub book, that's a great one to start with. Also Wahoo (by O'Kane as well).

[WilhelmSchulz.]

And dont forget "Cuitie" ;)

[CheckSix]

Unlike the U-boat war, there will be numerous warship encounters, naval battles, invasion landings, special missions, sampans, accurate intel from HQ, numerous islands and reefs to navigate (not just big empty ocean and easy sailing), plus, you will be playing the good guys... plus, who knows, maybe if you take a periscope sigting in Nagasaki bay around Aug 9, 1945... ;)

Hey, a true subsim enthusiast should see this a great way to experience new submarine warfare.

:up: cheers
Neal

Thanks for sweetening the pill Neal, i'm feeling better now. :ping:

[Sailor Steve]

...plus, you will be playing the good guys...
Zere are zose who vould dizagree, you know. Zome ov uz like our U-boatz.:arrgh!:

[cmdrk]

...plus, you will be playing the good guys... Zere are zose who vould dizagree, you know. Zome ov uz like our U-boatz.:arrgh!:

Well... at least the side that won. Then, the victors get to write the history and thus the winners are the good guys.

[cmdrk]

O'Kane's Clear the Bridge :)
Thanks. I'll have to give it a read.
Yes, very good book. If you've never read a US sub book, that's a great one to start with. Also Wahoo (by O'Kane as well).

Thanks Neal. I found them both and they now have a slot on my book shelf. I'm half way done with Wahoo.

[Subnuts]

...plus, you will be playing the good guys... Zere are zose who vould dizagree, you know. Zome ov uz like our U-boatz.:arrgh!:
Well... at least the side that won. Then, the victors get to write the history and thus the winners are the good guys.

But the losers get to make better movies about it! :lol:

[cmdrk]

Well... at least the side that won. Then, the victors get to write the history and thus the winners are the good guys.
But the losers get to make better movies about it! :lol:
Yes. More drama and tragedy. The heroic effort against the odds.

[djdemo]

no milch cows
no regular convoys


No, but the yanks had sub tenders.


no wolfpacks


The US employed wolfpacks from 1943 onwards with good sucess - although not in the same numbers as the Germans, the Americans were initially worried about blue on blue if they worked together, and pre-war, the US subs trained to sail from Pearl for decisive battle at the Philippines - but Wolf Packs did feature later in the war.


no advanced asw weapons (hedgehog, squid, foxers etc.)


The Japanese did deploy some good destroyers, but obviously the 50 US boats sunk doesn't compare to the numbers of Germans sunk in the Atlantic...


no advanced asw techniques


The Japanese did develop MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detectors) and got quite good at the techniques of locaing subs and attacking from the air... but only in small numbers around Japan, but might be something.


no homing or pattern running torps


No, but you get the fantastic Mk 14 torpedo that runs too deep and has a broken magnetic exploder and is not fixed and fully functioning until 1943! But the Yanks do get some interesting torpedoes towards the end of the war. Sadly there were no Japanese marus left at this point!


no enemy airborne radar


True, but there were MAD planes deployed...


But don't be down too much - the first bit of the war until April 1942 (when the Gatos arrive) will be a tense battle, especially if you take a crappy S-boat out of Manila Bay or Fremantle during the big battles of Northern Australia.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

no milch cows
no regular convoys


Wrong the Japanise had many regular convoys but not as large as the Alies had in the atlantic.


no wolfpacks


The US employed wolfpacks from 1943 onwards with good sucess - although not in the same numbers as the Germans, the Americans were initially worried about blue on blue if they worked together, and pre-war, the US subs trained to sail from Pearl for decisive battle at the Philippines - but Wolf Packs did feature later in the war.


no advanced asw weapons (hedgehog, squid, foxers etc.)


In Oct. 1945 the USS Barb experinced a pattern of splashes overhead and several explosens aft. It is still unshure what they where(hedghog,sonobomb?)


no advanced asw techniques


No but Groups of escorts and and HK Groups did make some prity nifty ideas(keeping the sub in the middle of a circle ex. Trigger)


no homing or pattern running torps


The Mk. 27 "Cutie" Torpedo was used as a escort killerand could be fired from evaision depth. The Mk. 27 was modifide from the Mk. 24 FIDO ASW torpedo(airdroped)


no enemy airborne radar


If you read "Clear The Brige" and "Thunder Below" you will find that the Japinies deployed airborn radar from late 44 early 45 onward.

What you state are many of the sterotypes of the pacfic war.

[CheckSix]

NO MINIATURE SUBS. :down:



Wrong!
Japanese heavy cruiser "Takao", laying off Singapore in the Johore Straits, was sunk by RN midget submarines "XE-1" and "XE-3" on the night of the 30th/31st July 1945. Released by towing submarines "Spark" and "Stygian" they managed to reach the cruiser to drop their charges. ("XE-3" was almost trapped beneath the hull of "Takao" on a falling tide.) Other XE craft cut or damaged the undersea telephone cables off Saigon, Indo-China and Hong Kong at this time. Crew of "XE-3" were awarded the Victoria Cross.

[dbf574]

Those boats were Darter and Dace. Darter attacked first and sank Kurita's flagship CA Atago. Darter also damaged CA Takao. Dace attacked next and sank CA Maya....


One important thing to remember is that the American version of the 'wolf-pack' was to have the boats "staggered" so that as the units that were attacked continued on, there would be another boat waiting for them to attack and there may be another. But in no way was it a massive onslaught of many boats within the same area (where the chance of 'friendly fire' could have been possible).

Another thread mentioned something about Japan invading Hawaii (or something to that effect), what needs to be remembered is that the ONLY reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor was to destroy the fleet that they felt would threaten their plan of a "Sphere of Influence" in the far east. They did not want us to interfere with that plan... they didn't want any part of us at all... just out of the way:yep: And Midway was just another attempt to protect that plan by providing a threat to the US fleet if they chose to go west (fortunately (for us), it had hurt the Imperial Navy).

But I'm glad that SHIV will be set in the Pacific... change is good for the soul:rock: (Just imagine, SHIII and SHIV on your computer... hog heaven:rotfl: )

[dean_acheson]

I am very excited about the Pacific Sim, it has been years and years since SHI, and the chance to play a WWII Subsim as something other than a member of the Kreigsmarine is something that I look forward too.

Just because the U.S. didn't lose, doesn't make it any less interesting. I am sure that there will be ample opportunities to sneak in to Manila or Tokyo bay and get yourself destroyed.

Also, finally getting to take part in a fleet action will be interesting, something that didn't really happen in the Atlantic very often, at least not in Midway type numbers.

I look forward to using a PPI scope.

I look forward to doing some lifegaurding.

I look forward to filling up my boat in Midway.

I look forward to being in a S-Boat in early '42 based out of the Phillipines and taking on the Japanese invasion forces.

I look forward to stalking Japanese convoys in shallow waters in SE Asia in '44.

I look forward to naming all the guys in my crew after my friends so they seem more life like, and not goofy, which is the effect when you are from the mid-west and are commanding a VII boat.

I love the Battle of the Atlantic, but I find the one in the Pacific just as interesting, and moreso after '43. After that time, it was alot closer to a fair fight.....

That is just my worthless .02, and I have loved the fleet boats since I was a little kid, so my change is really biased.

[CCIP]

Hey, your bias is just fine. I've never even so much as stepped on American soil, but I love the fleet boats and playing for Americans - my first subsim (Silent Service II) was PTO after all!

I love the boats and I love the nature of the operations. Even just hunting in shallow water off exotic islands should give everyone a real run for their money :up:

[trenken]

Being from the lovely state of New Jersey :-? , I'm excited that I get to head out in an American sub.

[Boris]

I'm actually finding myself feeling glad that SH4 is Pacific and not Atlantic again.

[JSF]

Being from the lovely state of New Jersey :-? , I'm excited that I get to head out in an American sub.

Ditto!!!...except the New Jersey part....I'm from New Orleans.

fyi...Manitowoc boats were barged down the muddy Mississip to Algiers Naval Support Facility, Algiers Landing, New Orleans. Here they were fitout with crew and supplies including warshots. Set free from the barges they proceeded to the warzone via the Panama Canal.

[Iron Budokan]

I'm looking forward to it....

[DS]

I agree. I much prefer the variety of the missions in the Pacific, as well as the fleet boats of the U.S. Navy.

[AirborneTD]

"Ditto"

[corvette k225]

For me it will allways be NAO or SAO my thinking is sales for SHIV will less than SHIII, because of world wide sales, When you think of subs of WWII most people think of German u-boats! Lets hope we see SHV, U -boat of the north atlantic, If we get a SHV it will be around 2008 in the fall. I hope!!!!:D:D

[Reece]

Since SH4 is using the SH3 engine it makes sense that it be Pacific Theatre, wouldn't be much point in using the same engine to do the same Theatre,:-? who would really pay for a rehashed SH3?:x This way we get both theatres & SH5 & 6 (new engine) will probably be the same, it's great!:up:
You can be sure however the modding community will probably come out with an add-on so as to have some of the new goodies of SH4 in an Atlantic Theatre.:yep:
I noticed from one of the SH4 trailers that the men seem to be rather larger than in SH3, does this mean all environment is bigger (more FPS)? or was that just the way it was displayed?:huh:

[Drokkon]

I'm excited that it's in the PTO. Since Kursk was the largest tank battle should all tank sims be placed there. No. I just hope that the AI keeps track of which ships are sunk. In Silent Hunter I in one career I sank 3 Yamato class BBs.

[nattydread]

Well Im oneof those who loves the Pacific Theater, in fact, the Atlantic theater was an after thought for me that I quickly fell in love with. I think those Atlantic Theater enthusthiaist will find the Pacific to equally exciting, though different in its own little ways.

But when it comes down to it, the basic concept is the same for both oceans. What you learned in U-boats will come in handy and generally transfer over to the Pacific. The big difference you'll see though is that their may not be as many large merchants, less convoys(especially large ones), less escorts...but perhaps more potential for engaging large warships.

But there is more diversity in operations in the Pacific, commando raids, shelling of shore installments(radio/comm relay station and other soft targets), airmen rescues, recon, covert logistics of man and material, etc.) Plus fishing boats and trawlwers are viable targets in the Pacific. The USS Barb had the first hull mounted rocket launcher and it was hand-made by the crew. They used it to "hit n' run" Japanese off-shore soft targets.

I think you'll get more scenery, more off-shore hunting, more stuff to break the monotony(spelling?) of the wide blue expanse. You'll have landmarks for staging areas like atolls, small islands and out-cropings, etc(or atleast we should).

It'll be fun...trust me, hop on in, the water is warm in the Pacific(unless you have to patrol the Kurils or the Aletutians)!

[geetrue]

Well Im oneof those who loves the Pacific Theater, in fact, the Atlantic theater was an after thought for me that I quickly fell in love with. I think those Atlantic Theater enthusthiaist will find the Pacific to equally exciting, though different in its own little ways.

But when it comes down to it, the basic concept is the same for both oceans. What you learned in U-boats will come in handy and generally transfer over to the Pacific. The big difference you'll see though is that their may not be as many large merchants, less convoys(especially large ones), less escorts...but perhaps more potential for engaging large warships.

But there is more diversity in operations in the Pacific, commando raids, shelling of shore installments(radio/comm relay station and other soft targets), airmen rescues, recon, covert logistics of man and material, etc.) Plus fishing boats and trawlwers are viable targets in the Pacific. The USS Barb had the first hull mounted rocket launcher and it was hand-made by the crew. They used it to "hit n' run" Japanese off-shore soft targets.

I think you'll get more scenery, more off-shore hunting, more stuff to break the monotony(spelling?) of the wide blue expanse. You'll have landmarks for staging areas like atolls, small islands and out-cropings, etc(or atleast we should).

It'll be fun...trust me, hop on in, the water is warm in the Pacific(unless you have to patrol the Kurils or the Aletutians)!

Only problems I see with Sh4 is having to go to the bathroom and keeping
the crumbs out of my keyboard ... :yep:

[NefariousKoel]

The Silent Hunter series was born in the PTO, and it is more than time to revisit the PTO in my opinion. I first got into submarine simulations with the first Silent Hunter, but I have played every submarine simulation that has come out since, and a few that pre-date SH1.

The U.S. Silent Service's war in the Pacific is rich both in terms of history and culture, and in terms of variety of mission types, environments, and operational considerations. While the u-boat war is also of interest to me, my simulation interests really lie with U.S. Submarines in the Pacific.

While the U-boats of WW2 were mostly aimed at merchant shipping in open and usually deep water (there were a few exceptions, I know), U.S submarines engaged in merchant shipping attacks, warship attacks, supporting naval and amphibious operations, special forces insertions/extractions, aircrew recovery, harbour penetrations, littoral warfare, reconaisance, evacuations, and even operated in conjuction with allied surface forces (what the large and fast "fleet" boats were built for). As such, I believe there is a wider variety of mission types and challenges for virtual skippers in the PTO.

Also, as previously stated, a Gato, Balao, or Tench class boat is a whole different kettle of fish in terms of size, fire power, and in the later years, even technology (PPI radar, and even air conditioning!). With the exception of the Type XXI, I regard u-boats as very heartily built and commanded, but slightly more primative boats (less speed, range, size, firepower, and equipment). That said, I love them for what they were.

The U.S. fleet boats for me though, had more pesonality (named vs. numbered, battle flags and unit citations for boats, as opposed to awards for officers and crews in the german navy), and accomplishments generally were associated more with the boat (skippers rotated after 4-6 patrols in the U.S. Navy) than with the skipper or crew, whereas the accomplishments in the U-boat service tend to be associated with famous skippers more than famous hulls.

Also, the submarine war in the Pacific is well documented through books and movies (Run Silent-Run Deep, Operation Pacific, Crash Dive, Torpedo Alley, and Destination Tokyo for starters)

For me, it is definately time to return to the PTO, and resurrect the stories of the USS Wahoo, USS Tang, USS Barb, and all the other boats that all travelled far and long from arctic to tropical waters, from the deep blue ocean to the painfully shallow waters of Tokyo Bay, and sank such a massive amount of shipping that Japan was strangled from the sea.

Well said DS.

My sim gaming experience started with this exact setup in the PTO and it's been a long time for me from Silent Service.

I most certainly miss hitting the typical shipping lanes searching for those small groups of well protected Marus not too terribly far away from land. It's a nice change from big convoys in the open ocean.

I'm sure everyone will enjoy it immensely even being set in a theater they don't know much about or don't care for much.