StarForce has been checked. No root-kits found

[Drebbel]

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12970

and

http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?c=83&id=766

StarForce has been checked. No root-kits found
Posted by Dan Bell on 19 January 2006 - 04:00 - Source: StarForce

Since the Sony rootkit fiasco, there have been rumors a flyin' that this software protection software uses rootkits as well. Therefore, to squelch the ignorance, the StarForce folks have had their wares independantly tested and given a clean bill of health. No malware. Well, actually a "well-known online magazine" asked Mark Russinovich, the guy that blew the whistle on Sony to take a peek and “check-out” StarForce for root-kits or any other malwares. He ought to know!

Independent tests showed that StarForce copy protection contains no malware.

The international IT community will not quickly forget the incident with Sony BMG at the end of 2005. The root-kits discovered in music CDs’ copy protection forced Sony to call back millions of discs and suffer serious losses.

Mark Russinovich was the main character of the story. It was him who one day discovered the root-kits and woke up famous the next morning.

Soon after the story with Sony calmed down a well-known online magazine asked Mark to “check-out” StarForce for root-kits or any other malwares.

After detailed examination of copy-protection installed by StarForce Mark came to the conclusion that StarForce protection contains zero root-kits or malwares. While the fact that StarForce drivers have to be sometimes uninstalled separately from the protected application is a bit annoying, it is not the StarForce’s responsibility, but the developer’s.

This conclusion together with the online contest again show that accusations about StarForce protection damaging PCs or operation systems have absolutely no ground.

StarForce Technologies

On the other net rumor and resulting challenge from the protection company from Russia: Win a free trip to Moscow if you can be the first to show your rig was hosed by StarForce! There are also a lot of claims concerning DVD/CD writers malfunctioning after installation and start-up of StarForce protected applications. Prove your case to StarForce and you can take home $5000.00 plus expenses. So far, not one application has been filed at the StarForce web contest hangout, even after 43.000 views, so they upped the ante from 1000 dollars to 5000! Kinda funny that they started at $1000.00 and now they are thinking, "Hell, maybe it really doesn't screw over a PC! Let's raise the prize money!".

----------------

Be sure to read Soulcommander his comments elsewhere in this thread. He has "proof" this news is fake. I have no idea if that is true or not , but why should he be lying ? Just read his message and make up your own mind.

[Konovalov]

Even though I am no fan of Starforce I didn't find this rumour circulating to be very credible.

[Seeadler]

Anyway my new PC is now a StarForce-free zone and it will remain one also in the future :yep:

[SUBMAN1]

As well as my PC will remain Starforce free.

-S

[Drebbel]

I love SF, enables me to play SHIII :D

[jumpy]

I love SF...
Blasphemer! Burn the heretic! :-j

[SUBMAN1]

I love SF, enables me to play SHIII :D

Terrible! SHIII sucks in that it has SF!!!. I look at it lately and almost install it every now and then, but it still sits on my desk because of the dreaded SF!!!

-S

[fargel]

It's going to be an up hill battle for Starforce. From my point of view, the customer decides if SF is good or not for them, not the maker of the program. The SF team can keep bringing reports saying "there's nothing wrong with it," but the damage is already done, and that is by the boycott SF groups. Hell, there are so many boycott SF on the web, I wonder why there is this movement in the first place? There must have been a problem which got alot of people concerned about.

I am still not going to buy SF copy products. No matter what the maker or independent groups say how good SF is.

[Bluewings]

From SF :

This conclusion together with the online contest again show that accusations about StarForce protection damaging PCs or operation systems have absolutely no ground.

BULLSH*T ALERT !

Cheers .

[Wulfmann]

What would a women think on her first date if he said “Trust me, I’m a guy!”

What would an African say to someone asking him to come for a boat ride saying; “Trust me, I am a white man!”

What would a Jew say to someone saying “Trust me, I am German!”

What would a China man say to someone that said; “Trust me, I am Japanese!”

What would a PC gamer say to some that said “Trust me, I am Starforce!”

Past experience produces trust and in all the above some may not have a problem trusting any of them.

Would you?

Wulfmann

[Skybird]

Peter asks Pauls: "Are you a good or a bad man?"

Any doubts what Paul answered...?

Zero tolerance for SF. examinations are academical only. What too many people actually can see happening on their systems is what decides the issue.

[sik1977]

I love SF, enables me to play SHIII :D

SHIII enables me to play SHIII, not starforce, and I play SHIII just fine without starforce, so no need for any starforce love there. Love is definetely there for the guys who wrote the wonderful code for SHIII and the guys in this community who continue to improve this wonderful product for us all.

[Wim Libaers]

Peter asks Pauls: "Are you a good or a bad man?"

Any doubts what Paul answered...?

Zero tolerance for SF. examinations are academical only. What too many people actually can see happening on their systems is what decides the issue.

Well, all they claim is that it doesn't contain a rootkit, which is one very specific kind of potentially harmful software (rootkits by themselves are harmless, the problem is that they make harmful software far more effective by hiding it from the user and many security scanners). They do not mention checking for any other kind of harmful component.

[U-214]

I love SF, enables me to play SHIII

As long as i don't use WinXP 64bit,correct? In that case,disables me from playing SHIII,doesn't it?

[Drebbel]

I love SF, enables me to play SHIII

As long as i don't use WinXP 64bit,correct? In that case,disables me from playing SHIII,doesn't it?

Yep, including many other operating systems. But that is clear descibed on the box. Same does not go for SF.

[U-214]

Yep, including many other operating systems. But that is clear descibed on the box. Same does not go for SF.

Then we have different boxes.Mine simply says operating system "Xp-2000" with no distinction between 32 and 64bit.I see nothing "clear" about this and the game is still being sold.

Anyway,my point was that there is no other reason for which it could not work in 64 bit other than the presence of this copy protection.

I would also like to add sir,that the attempts of the moderators of this forum to explain the unexplainable and defend this copy protection scheme,to put it as politely as i can,is rather obvious and provokes certain reactions to the reader that i would rather not describe in detail.

The only thing clear about this copy protection is a presence of a fist on the back of the box.I guess it is the fist the customer is about to take.

Now that i have this protection,i will ensure i will not take again this fist.

Regards

[Sea Demon]

Terrible! SHIII sucks in that it has SF!!!. I look at it lately and almost install it every now and then, but it still sits on my desk because of the dreaded SF!!!

-S

I'm just like you SUBMAN1. I'd love to re-install this game but I don't want to take chances. I'm studying the issue further before I put another Starforce item on my PC. I won't let my PC become a lab rabbit for a software protection system that is suspect.

I want to play SH3 badly, but I need to examine this issue a little more before I re-install the game again. For now, it stays off.

Sea Demon

[SUBMAN1]

I love SF, enables me to play SHIII

As long as i don't use WinXP 64bit,correct? In that case,disables me from playing SHIII,doesn't it?

Yep, including many other operating systems. But that is clear descibed on the box. Same does not go for SF.

The only thing that does not work on x64 that is written for a 32 bit box is 'drivers'. SO actually, the only reason for SHIII not running on x64 would happen to be because of SF, since it installs a low level driver to replace your default CD-ROM driver.

Matter of fact, trying to install SF on an x64 system could render your CD-ROM completely inoperable for this very reason alone.

-S

[XabbaRus]

Going to have to check EULA but I am sure by law in the UK at least we can make on ecopy for back up puproses, or is that a rumour too?

[joea]

This is getting real tiresome.

[Drebbel]

Yep, including many other operating systems. But that is clear descibed on the box. Same does not go for SF.

Then we have different boxes.Mine simply says operating system "Xp-2000" with no distinction between 32 and 64bit.I see nothing "clear" about this and the game is still being sold.

Just checked, and you are right. Maybe the downloadable version is a good solution for you.

[Takeda Shingen]

This is getting real tiresome.

Yes.

[U-214]

Maybe the downloadable version is a good solution for you.

Thank you ,but i don't intend to buy twice the same game.If Ubisoft was half honest or cared about those who pay its games ,she would have released a patch to make it OK.

I can still play it because i do have 32bit XP.But i have 64bit processor,2GB RAM and modern hardware and passing to 64bit OS is in my immediate targets so to take full advantage of my hardware.And honestly having a game bought in late 2005 which won't work with 64bit OS,is something that makes me angry.If i had bought a game 3 years ago,when there wasn't the minimun hint that the processors would go 64bit,then yes,i would have admitted that ubisoft couldn't have predicted such an evolution.But now we are talking about 64bit processors for over a year now and windows 64bit is a reality and the incoming new windows will also be 64 bit.

I have no more money for ubisoft to buy also her downloaded version ,which i presume is without starforce? I think i will have money only for someone else who will liberate me from the limits of starforce "protection".It's when the legal customer gets punished for being legal and has to resort on feeding illegality.

I have been playing war simulators for decades,my job is in the military too,i have always supported the genre ,because it is specialized and thus doesn't attract the kids who want "bang bang! i killed you".But it is the first time i encounter this protection and certainly will NOT reward ubisoft for the way that treats its customer by buying also the downloadable version.I don't intend only the fact of the 64bit ,but also why on my box there isn't any mention of the warning about possible conflicts as i read exists on the US box.On my game the warning exists only inside the manual.

I have taken the fist on my face once.No more.

Excuse me for the tone,but i have had enough with this thing.It is time to tell things straight and i will pray for the day that a EU law comes out and finally starts controlling these gentlemen ,like they do with any other commercial sector in the EU.

Regards and i am out of this discussion.Hail Starforce.

[Skybird]

Moreover, the Starforce drivers, installed on your system, grant ring 0 (system level) privileges to any code under the ring 3 (user level) privileges. Thus, any virus or trojan can get OS privileges and totally control your system. Since Windows 2000, the Windows line security and stability got enhanced by separating those privileges, but with the Starforce drivers, the old system holes and instabilities are back and any program (or virus) can reach the core of your system by using the Starforce drivers as a backdoor.

[U-214]

P.S:I don't know what exactly a rootkit is,i just read that Sony had it.I can only say one thing.Well,thank God that it doesn't have a rootkit too! There are enough things wrong in this protection and the way the game is sold already that make the rootkit danger the last concern i have.

[Sea Demon]

This is getting real tiresome.

Yes.

I agree with both you guys. This is growing tiresome. But I'm just looking for the truth. Will Starforce have a negative impact on my hardware? Until I know for sure..........

Sea Demon

[TteFAboB]

Moreover, the Starforce drivers, installed on your system, grant ring 0 (system level) privileges to any code under the ring 3 (user level) privileges. Thus, any virus or trojan can get OS privileges and totally control your system. Since Windows 2000, the Windows line security and stability got enhanced by separating those privileges, but with the Starforce drivers, the old system holes and instabilities are back and any program (or virus) can reach the core of your system by using the Starforce drivers as a backdoor.


Can't this be fixed somehow by devs or StarForce? Like a patch or something? Or does StarForce depends on this "feature" to "prevent" pirating?

Well, it's CLEARLY cracked by now, so, StarForce became irrelevant, it doesn't need "extra" protection anymore, it is as good as any other protection software, old or new.

This is a good time to start developing a new protection system though, with all the negative publicity StarForce is receiving if someone can offer a good protection technology that CERTAINLY doesn't harm the user (no rumors, no tests needed, plain safe) he can capitalize on StarForce's demise, start coding.

[Skybird]

Can't this be fixed somehow by devs or StarForce? Like a patch or something? Or does StarForce depends on this "feature" to "prevent" pirating?

I assume that is too much to be expected from a company that censors critical questions and deletes critizism and locks user accounts at their forum.

And beyond that security issue, the technical issues with DVD and CD drives remain. I just reminded of of the trojan/virus issue, because it almost never is mentioned in discussions. But it's a biggy. You only think it's minor as long as you are not hit. And if you are hit you probably wonder why and do not link it to the existence of SF on your system.

[Herr Karl]

The notification for my copy of UbiSoft SHIII is on page 4 of my Users Manual.

NOTICE: This game contains technology intended to prevent copying that may conflict with some disc and virtual drives.

*WHEW*

Thank God! No Rootkits!

:rock:

[The Old Man]

I got this game late so I am a little behind on what's going on but I have already reinstalled it once after reformating my hard drive. If it's my understanding it's gonna harm my system????????????
"Everything's ruining fine" but if it is going to be messing my system up then it's gonna be collecting dust.
Roy

[SUBMAN1]

I got this game late so I am a little behind on what's going on but I have already reinstalled it once after reformating my hard drive. If it's my understanding it's gonna harm my system????????????
"Everything's ruining fine" but if it is going to be messing my system up then it's gonna be collecting dust.
Roy

Probably a better way to put it - yes it can harm your system, kill your optical drives, and grant a trojan or virus Level 0 access so that it has the ability to Flash your BIOS and completely destroy your system, including flashing your drives. Sound like a nice program yet? Oh, the developers are from Russia too - outside of our laws.

-S

[bradclark1]

Moreover, the Starforce drivers, installed on your system, grant ring 0 (system level) privileges to any code under the ring 3 (user level) privileges. Thus, any virus or trojan can get OS privileges and totally control your system. Since Windows 2000, the Windows line security and stability got enhanced by separating those privileges, but with the Starforce drivers, the old system holes and instabilities are back and any program (or virus) can reach the core of your system by using the Starforce drivers as a backdoor.


I would have thought if this were true it would make CNET, PCWorld, etc news sites as a headliner.

[SUBMAN1]

Moreover, the Starforce drivers, installed on your system, grant ring 0 (system level) privileges to any code under the ring 3 (user level) privileges. Thus, any virus or trojan can get OS privileges and totally control your system. Since Windows 2000, the Windows line security and stability got enhanced by separating those privileges, but with the Starforce drivers, the old system holes and instabilities are back and any program (or virus) can reach the core of your system by using the Starforce drivers as a backdoor.


I would have thought if this were true it would make CNET, PCWorld, etc news sites as a headliner.

I don't think anyone has made a big deal about it just yet is all. Like who is StarForce to the Joe Public? No One. Now if it were Sony....

-S

[Wim Libaers]

Moreover, the Starforce drivers, installed on your system, grant ring 0 (system level) privileges to any code under the ring 3 (user level) privileges. Thus, any virus or trojan can get OS privileges and totally control your system. Since Windows 2000, the Windows line security and stability got enhanced by separating those privileges, but with the Starforce drivers, the old system holes and instabilities are back and any program (or virus) can reach the core of your system by using the Starforce drivers as a backdoor.


I would have thought if this were true it would make CNET, PCWorld, etc news sites as a headliner.

It is perhaps a bit less important than it might seem, because most Windows users work with administrator privileges (because a lot of programs just expect to have that and will not work properly from other accounts), which means any trojan that gets user level also gets an opportunity to install drivers, which means it can get ring 0 acces after a reboot. That is, for most people, the only difference: does the trojan get ring 0 right now, or only after you reboot.

It is more significant if you are working as a nonprivileged user or if you have security software that warns you about unauthorized driver installs.



For the right to make a backup, a lot of countries allow making backups for personal use. However, as fas as I know the manufacturer of the media is not obliged to make it easy or convenient for you to do so. And there even has been legislation introduced in the US and EU to ban technology that allows circumvention of copy protection. So, even if you have the right to make a backup, it's prohibited to have a device capable of doing that.



Also, we shouldn't be too worried about this specific copy protection. After all, this one is known well enough that there will be a lot of noise about it when some game uses it, perhaps until the government not only criminalizes circumvention of copy protection, but also talking about copy protection. So do not pre-order games if there is uncertainty, and do not buy any SF-protected games. Problem solved. Sure, you may have to avoid a game that you'd like to play (in my case, SH3), but that's no real disaster, merely inconvenient.

A bigger problem is copy protection in general, copyright, and intellectual property in general. Copy protection, because it restricts what the customer can do with the property he bought, and demonstrates clearly the disrespect companies have for customers (or consumers, as they prefer to call us). Intellectual property in general is a problem too. From an utilitarian point of view, because what once started to promote new and innovative work is becoming more one-sided, and even becoming a way to outlaw competition for some companies. And one can also object to it because intellectual properties infringe on physical property rights.

For those who'd like to read a bit more about this, have a look at the links here:
http://blog.mises.org/archives/001771.asp
Especially "Against Intellectual Property", which discusses many aspects of the problem.

[Mustang]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
However, isn't StarForce in itself a RootKit or more familurely a RAT.

It installs several drivers and registry entries that,

1. Control the way in which the HardWare in your system is run which can be harmful to HardWare.

2. Block you out from making any changes to it so that /YOU/ can configure it for use on /YOUR/ machine. Which is bad considering not all machines are the same.

3. Adds Cyber Doors for the collection of information on your machine and for product support by SF Technicians.

4. Assaults or Blocks any copying media even if you are legitimately copying something you yourself have made.

5. Disables CD\RW Drives\Software,etc.

As I stated above not all systems are the same, but having had SF since SH3 I myself have dealt with SF and can say all in my list applies for the copy I had and the effects on my machine.

But still, even if not all I listed is true for the updated versions of today. Starforce is still a RootKit software because against your authority, it controls certain parts of your computer and does not let you configure it.

RATs are the IT term for such a program, they are used by hackers for remote control of an infected PC, often hiding under the guise of a new HardWare device much like SF does.

[Gizzmoe]

It is perhaps a bit less important than it might seem, because most Windows users work with administrator privileges (because a lot of programs just expect to have that and will not work properly from other accounts), which means any trojan that gets user level also gets an opportunity to install drivers, which means it can get ring 0 acces after a reboot. That is, for most people, the only difference: does the trojan get ring 0 right now, or only after you reboot.

Absolutely right! I´ve always said that in such an environment a virus doesn´t need SF to harm your system, but it seems that many people here still are paranoid about it.

[Gizzmoe]

3. Adds Cyber Doors for the collection of information on your machine and for product support by SF Technicians.

It doesn´t add "cyber doors"! :roll: SF can send out technical informations if you tell it to do so and there´s nothing wrong about this.

RATs are the IT term for such a program, they are used by hackers for remote control of an infected PC, often hiding under the guise of a new HardWare device much like SF does.

Quite a few things only show up in the Non-PNP driver list, like the SafeDisk copy protection, VMWare, Nero´s ElbyCDIO driver and many other drivers. It´s all perfectly normal!

[Mustang]

It doesn´t add "cyber doors"! :roll: SF can send out technical informations if you tell it to do so and there´s nothing wrong about this.

It adds remote access to your computer so it can obtain information without allowing you to set the means or manner in which it sends the report. That is like your flatmate busting a hole in the wall into your room and saying, "If you need to tell me anything, talk through this hole." without you having any say in the matter.


Quite a few things only show up in the Non-PNP driver list, like the SafeDisk copy protection, VMWare, Nero´s ElbyCDIO driver and many other drivers. It´s all perfectly normal!

Yes other commercial software does sometimes put itself in that list but there is a large difference between them and SF.
The ones you mentioned, if purchased in material form rather then electronic. have documentation to tell you about those settings, in case the program has any problems so that you can troubleshoot.

StarFoce does not, they add this software and control devices against your will and before it became widely known, without your knowledge as well.

StarForce adds new software and configures existing software without prompting you or allowing you any choice in the matter except to not use the product you purchased that unfortunately came with it. It has caused countless issues with system stability including my own. It added itself to my Win 98 system when I installed SH3 and had a conflict with my Win 98 RAID Drivers forcing me to do a complete overhaul of my win 98 system and purchase XP. True, 98 is obsolete and I would have had to buy XP sometime but I had not expected it to be so soon.

As of yet however, StarForce does not effect my XP system's performance except that it disabled my alcohol 120% and refuses to recognize my LG CD\RW. When before reinstalling SH3 on my new system both worked fine. I had hopes that SF had more compatibility with XP then 98 so I chanced it and now regret it.

[Gizzmoe]

It adds remote access to your computer so it can obtain information without allowing you to set the means or manner in which it sends the report.

You write that SF adds cyber doors and remote access to our computers. Do you have any proof for that? At the moment I think you don´t really know what you are talking about and that you simply confuse terms. Or maybe I just don´t get what you are trying to say...

StarForce adds new software and configures existing software without prompting you or allowing you any choice in the matter except to not use the product you purchased that unfortunately came with it.

It is not the responsibilty of Starforce to inform you about their copy protection, the publisher alone is responsible for that. You absolutely cannot blame Starforce that a game installer or whatever doesn´t inform the customer about what gets installed.

StarForce does not effect my XP system's performance except that it disabled my alcohol 120% and refuses to recognize my LG CD\RW. I had hopes that SF had more compatibility with XP then 98 so I chanced it and now regret it.

Have you tried the SF driver update?

[joea]

This is not only tiresome but becoming a witchhunt against people like myself who have no problems, agree SF might be a problem and disagree with its premise, yet still have SH3 and play it. So all of you guys with banners, have you uninstalled SH3? Even you SH3 modders? :88)

[bradclark1]

I had to think hard about this (That's the burning smell) but I think about the time I put SHIII on my box that I could burn a cd but the files were unreadable. Hadn't paid attention to the SF saga untill sometime later. My son had Easy CD Creator from Roxio for his Dell so I loaded that up and haven't had a problem burning since. So you just need something to override SF.

[Mustang]

You write that SF adds cyber doors and remote access to our computers. Do you have any proof for that? At the moment I think you don´t really know what you are talking about and that you simply confuse terms. Or maybe I just don´t get what you are trying to say...

I found that quite offensive. And at the moment I believe your assumptions may cause harm to yourself and with your unfounded assurances that SF is of no Danger, it may harm others as well.

Now I abhor conflict however, I will let you know how and why I come to these conclusions. See if you can keep up, as some of this is quite technical.

This is for the Windows XP OS's only.

1. Run SH3.
2. Alt+Tab or use whatever functions your OS allows you to minimize the game with.
3. Go to Star>Run, type into the Command Prompt. "tasklist /svc" without the quotes, you should see several services running under the CVS index including the illegal entry of Starforce Environment Driver, StarForce Protection Helper Driver and StarForce Synchronization Driver. If you do not see them. Well as I said, "Not all machines are the same."

4. type into the command prompt, "netstat -a" active connection will include a connection to 'SF Protection' it should be listed as "Listening."

5. type into command prompt, "netstat -b" to see all connections if SF was not listed as Active then it should be listed in here.

Still not convinced?

Right click, "My Computer." click "Properties." go to "Hardware" then "Device Manager". Now click "View" then "Show Hidden Devices" now go to "Non-Plug and Play Drivers" and you should see the same ones I listed in step 3. Right click anyone of them and click "Properties." then click "Driver" and you should see each SF Driver is listed as a "Windows Service" which means it is an Active connection and has permission to do whatever it wants under the SVCHost operation it also work on Boot. As is true that some Windows Services are directly connected with Microsoft. it is the same with the SF Drivers, that I mentioned. Now there may be legitimate reason for adding them in this manner but the point is, they did it without the user's permission and without allowing them to edit it.

If you saw none of what I mentioned then please, REMEMBER. "Not All Computer Systems Are The Same." and if you tell me, "Then it may just be your system that reacts like that." then I can say the same thing to you. Because not all computers are a like. So there is no way you can know how a software will effect someone else's PC.
So saying something is good for someone else may not be an actual fact. With the various system configurations in them, Computers have become equivalent to the Human body and can have serious reactions to a piece of software much in the way a Person has allergic reaction.

So don't just come out and say SF is good or that it is bad for someone else's PC. You don't know for sure and my original debate was that it was a DRM-RAT-RootKit which I feel I have just proven and when I said "Cyber Door and Remote Access" I was well awaer they both meant the same thing it is just not everyone is familiar with the term "Cyber Door".

I do not mean to be shroud, but your assumption could in effect Damage someone else's PC, the danger with SF is real and SF's reactions are sincerely lacking.

[Gizzmoe]

with your unfounded assurances that SF is of no Danger, it may harm others as well.

Never said that it´s totally harmless.

4. type into the command prompt, "netstat -a" active connection will include a connection to 'SF Protection' it should be listed as "Listening."

5. type into command prompt, "netstat -b" to see all connections if SF was not listed as Active then it should be listed in here.

I don´t see it on my system.

Do you have a game installed that uses an online SF activation? As you probably know there are different flavours of SF.

What´s the remote address or listening port?

Have you ever noticed that it from time to time opens an unasked connection to a server on the Internet?

If you have noticed it, is it possible to block the traffic? Does a software firewall inform you that something tries to access the Internet or does it use "stealth methods"?

Have you noticed that something unusual is going on while SF is connected to the server, like lots of disk access or a certain amount of CPU usage?

Have you used something like the Sysinternal tools to find out which registry keys and files will be accessed while it is connected to the server?

Have you noticed anything else that can be seen as a hard fact that SF really adds a "cyber door" to your system and that it is potentially harmful or that it can be exploited by something else?

[Mustang]

with your unfounded assurances that SF is of no Danger, it may harm others as well.

Never said that it´s totally harmless.

4. type into the command prompt, "netstat -a" active connection will include a connection to 'SF Protection' it should be listed as "Listening."

5. type into command prompt, "netstat -b" to see all connections if SF was not listed as Active then it should be listed in here.

I don´t see it on my system.

Do you have a game installed that uses an online SF activation? As you probably know there are different flavours of SF.

What´s the remote address or listening port?

Have you ever noticed that it from time to time opens an unasked connection to a server on the Internet?

If you have noticed it, is it possible to block the traffic? Does a software firewall inform you that something tries to access the Internet or does it use "stealth methods"?

Have you noticed that something unusual is going on while SF is connected to the server, like lots of disk access or a certain amount of CPU usage?

Have you used something like the Sysinternal tools to find out which registry keys and files will be accessed while it is connected to the server?

Have you noticed anything else that can be seen as a hard fact that SF really adds a "cyber door" to your system and that it is potentially harmful or that it can be exploited by something else?

Okay,
the continuance of this thread can only serve to stir up conflict and debate. So I'll just go ahead and give my last reply.

I have never noticed the anomalies you described, personally on my computer. I will admit I have seen others that had those issues. Normally if a single program was sucking up a lot of CPU power it is either running some sort of scan on your computer or it is graphic intensive and at times though few in occasion these day as opposed to when it came out. It could be a variant of the lsasser.

Yes, it is possible to hide programs inside the SVCHost, windows XP is very different from the old 95 & 98 versions instead of a sort of management program that oversees all computer function and dictates it. Windows XP makes a computer into a virtual server, an always active virtual server unless your PC is turned off.

Several files must be running and if you use a portscanner you'll see a lot of programs connect to "0.0.0.0" which means they are running off of the computer. "127.0.0.1" is also an in-system server. now there are good points to this system and there are bad, foremost the Bad. With the OS operating as a server it requires several files to continuously run and connect outside of the computer. Instead of the old 98 Programs like runDLL and Kernal32 which HAD to be running in order for 98 to Run XP has about 20 services that need to be on ALL THE TIME. Anyone of those Drivers or Virtual Servers can be a serious security risk. Especially with the "REMOTE ACCESS Service." which is a BackDoor developed by Microsoft so they can have an IT access your machine for Technical Support but at least it is allowed to be Disabled unlike some other Services..

" Services.msc " will list the running services.

I Do not have any other games that have SF

Yes, it is possible for a driver or program to run Secretly. If it Registers itself as a service it can run under the SVCHost which is a program that Loads and Manages all DLLs that the computer calls to run.

RegEdit will allow you to see the registry changes.


My closing statement,
I'm not saying, SF /Will/ Harm someones Computer and I'm not saying it /Will NoT/ I am saying it /DID/ damage my old Win98 OS and it /Does/ run as a Device to avoid certain Anti-Malware Scanners and does Install Hidden Drivers so that it can run Independently from the USER and both access and configure certain media operation without giving you the power to choose what and where.

I don't believe in the SF Virus even though I'm rather certain SF Damaged my old machine but I Do Believe it is Malware and a Rk to be specific. I respect your position in this debate
Gizzmoe in theat you're trying to ease the Paranoia that spreads about using SF, however in this instance I must point out that there is a risk when using SF, there is a risk when installing and using any kind of software.

So people, just acknowledge StarForce has a risk and was intended to prevent the copying of the product it was licensed to protect, that its overall goal, it is to /PREVENT/ you from doing something with the software you purchased and it accomplishes this through questionable means. That is not to say it /WILL/ harm your computer, but that it /CAN/ .

Just don't PANIC! I'm tired of these threads all over the NET About. "The StarForce Virus!" or "StarForce has been proven Safe!" both are wrong, because no one can predict how a piece of software can effect one machine from another.

Good Defense, Gizzmoe.
I think we should save our debates for more productive discussions though.

[GT182]

Excellent posts and info Mustang. :up: I'd like your permission to quote you in another forum if you don't mind.

And to add. to ... by Gizzmoe - Never said that it´s totally harmless.

No one can say and prove it's totally benign either.

Some say prove it's hurt your computer... I say you prove to me that it doesn't and won't. You can't just like I can't prove it to you without you physically looking at our computers. So it looks to be a stalemate. There has to be trust in what's been found that SF does. No one is yanking anyones crank on that fact. And if they are, they're only hurting themselves.

If it's not hurting your computer now, fine and we're happy for anyone that it's not. But remember, it can in the future when you least expect it. That's what has happened to mine and others.

[Mustang]

And to add. to ... by Mustang - Never said that it´s totally harmless.



*coughs* Gizzmoe said that *cough*

I appreciate your commentary GT and I think our point has been made and we can lay this thread to rest.

[Takeda Shingen]

I appreciate your commentary GT and I think our point has been made and we can lay this thread to rest.

No, please, let us have another round of this. One of my African Violets had to be thown out last week. I think Starforce was responsible.

[GT182]

LOL sorry about that Mustang... It's corrected.

No, this will never be laid to rest until something comes of it. Whether there's an amicable solution or not. There is genuine concern over the StarForce issues and can't be passed over lightly as some would like.

Takeda Shingen, glad you think it's funny. Wait until you have problems and then we can laugh at you. ;)

[Takeda Shingen]

No, this will never be laid to rest until something comes of it. Whether there's an amicable solution or not. There is genuine concern over the StarForce issues and can't be passed over lightly as some would like.

Takeda Shingen, glad you think it's funny. Wait until you have problems and then we can laugh at you. ;)

Please, GT182, it is over-the-top statements like that which hurt your little crusade. I had simpathy for you until one of your fellow crusaders labeled DVD drive failure a 'personal tragedy'. A family member dying is a personal tragedy. Losing your job is a personal tragedy. Being stricken with cancer is a personal tragedy. Computer failure is an inconvience.

The opponents of Starforce hold such an attitude of self-righteousness that, truthfully, it is hard to keep a straight face while reading this thread. Don't worry, though: As soon as I have problems, you'll be the first person I notify.

[Mustang]

I appreciate your commentary GT and I think our point has been made and we can lay this thread to rest.

No, please, let us have another round of this. One of my African Violets had to be thown out last week. I think Starforce was responsible.

It could very well be StarForce! :P
Did you hear they also order people's computers to murder the owners first born sons in sacrifice to the Computer god (Master Computer) from TRON.

No, this will never be laid to rest until something comes of it. Whether there's an amicable solution or not. There is genuine concern over the StarForce issues and can't be passed over lightly as some would like.

The problem is real, but as you said. there is no way to predict who it will happen to, how or even why. Computer Systems are too diverse, its like guessing who will catch a cold next. To simply warn people should be sufficient. whether they listen or not is not your responsibility. I can understand if it happened to you, how you want to ensure it happens to noone else. But put simply, you can't. And discussions like these that linger on and on look more like hoaxes.

If you want to help people educate them. You can tell them about what happened to you, but don't press the issue, don't try to make them fear that it /MIGHT/ happen to them.

[Godalmighty83]

so essentialy starforce says starforce is ok, noone else excpet for drebble and gizmoe believe them.


no version of starforce will ever make its way onto my new PC, regardless of how good the makers say it is.

[Soulcommander]

I wrote Mark after reading this article asking him what company asked him to check out Starforce. For as far as I know I was the first to contact Mark. But my contact had nothing to do with checking for rootkits etc. I wanted him to check on what the driver is actually doing.

And Mark never did answer my specific questions.
He only referred me to the thread on his blog.

After several emails Mark Responded. "I haven't looked into it any further" So I left him alone.

Here are the original emails the first one is edited to protect names and certain people who did not want their indentity revealed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Larry
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 12:19 PM
To: Mark Russinovich
Subject: Starforce....
Importance: High


Hello Mark,
I was wondering if you would possibly be able to help in this matter. When I saw the deal with Sony...Many of us fellow gamers related this ordeal with the same problem we are seeing with Starforce copy protection. I have been posting links to your web site as well as stories from cnet etc about Sony on the Ubi forums as well as Subsim.com forums. Everyone has thanked me for these posts and ask that I personally thank you! So Thank you!

First off I want to tell you that I'm no hacker and I have no Alcohol 120 or daemon tools on my computer nor have I ever used these programs.
I tell you this as many of us gamers are being accused by Starforce of having these tools on our PC. They make up any excuse they can and when they can't seem to find out what's wrong they leave you hanging.

The details I have are lengthy and I don't want to bore you to death. But I would like to share what has been happening with all of this briefly. And I was actually seeking your help too.

I am (edited) that loves computer gaming...and have been working with Ubisoft (edited) My Plextor writer stopped working after installing Silent Hunter III. It contains Starforce. Also, I discovered Starforce installs drivers in the hidden area of device manager. Many of us have read the EULA and can't find a mention of Starforce being installed anywhere. I think this is wrong. Yet Starforce people have posted that the EULA covers them.

I have collected many incidents from Ubisoft game owners. I have admissions from Ubisoft that Starforce has problems. (from their tech support) (edited)

Starforce wrote an article in response to Aaron McKenna's article http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/10/01/the_war_on_game_pirates/ that basically called all of us with problems "beginner level Hackers" I take offense to that as do many others. Here's Starforce's response: http://www.star-force.com/protection/protection.phtml?c=256&id=658 Very unprofessional!
I did post Aaron's email to Dennis of Starforce on the UBI forum with Aaron's permission. Aaron has been affected with Starforce problems too as well as his associates. I spoke for 2 hours with Aaron on the phone from Ireland. I actually live in Iowa here in the states.

Starforce is based out of Russia...they lock posts on their web site for no reason and delete them shortly there after. They have helped some but most remain with no help whatsoever. The copy protection in some cases like mine made the cdrw drive have a complete drive failure. Plextor after getting my drive said they couldn't figure out why it died. Only had 16 burns on it and was never used to load or play games with.

It seemed a mystery to me what was going on at first and never thought of a game doing this. I don't install programs as freely as some.. So this game was the first install I did for about 5 months. So I knew where to look, although I didn't use my plextor drive until about a month after the game was installed, to burn our 25th wedding anniversary pics. That's when the trouble started. Although I did have events happening in event viewer in XP stating timeout errors on that drive after the install of the game I never thought of the game as the factor in this. As well as strange high spins for long periods of time upon boot up coming from the cdrw drive ! This seems to be a common description from others too. As well as games playing choppy after Starforce is installed. Not just the game with it on it ,but all others. I had that experience with Battlefield 1942 after installing Silent Hunter III. All these things led me to calling Ubisoft and going to the forums, only to discover I wasn't alone.


So if there is any more info you need or anything you can do to assist. I would appreciate it. Ubi techs don't have a clue on the protection they admitted that...that's why its vital I have someone techy that can assist.

Aaron has asked his associates at Toms Hardware lab also..But so far Aarron says...no word from them.

Another forum post one of many you may find interesting although it's long and can't expect you to read it. Aaron's personal email is on the first page half way down.
I'm Soulcommander in the forum.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/2091013073/p/1

Thank you!!!


Larry



----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Russinovich
To: Larry
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:10 AM
Subject: RE: Starforce....



Hi Larry,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'll buy a copy of SilentHunder III and take a look. I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks for the feedback also.

-Mark




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Larry
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:54 PM
To: Mark Russinovich
Subject: Re: Starforce....


Hi Again Mark,
One of the gentleman that is in our Starforce Investigation group with Ubisoft pointed out this article Starforce put out:

http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?c=261&id=707

Want to go to Russia? And win $1,000 Of course you have to prove it to them. I think this is a joke myself....But wanted you to see it. I'm going to show Aaron McKenna from Toms Hardware as well.

Any news for me yet?

Thank you kindly,
Larry





----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Russinovich
To: 'Larry
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: Starforce


Yes, here's my answer:

-------------------------------


Hi Larry,

I did take a look and commented here: http://www.sysinternals.com/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2263&KW=starforce

-Mark










--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Larry
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:26 AM
To: Mark Russinovich
Subject: Re: Starforce


Hello Mark, thanks for the reply.
So the questions I asked:
Just curious as I have been getting lots of questions directed my way as if you actually disassembled the Starforce drivers, what you thought about the EULA with the game and if you tested with many combinations of hardware involving cdrw or combo drives with burning software installed and tried?
I want to know if you can share with us all what testing you conducted.

So from your response I will assume you have no further comment on what you actually did to come to your conclusion.Please don't feel I am bullying you. People that have been affected, including myself have been posting and emailing exactly how complete your tests were. I have directed them to your blog entry and I guess they were hoping for a little more detail.
If I don't hear from you again, I will deliver your message you sent to me twice now (Your Blog entry).

Thank you for your time,

Larry




From: "Mark Russinovich"
To: "'Larry
Subject: RE: Starforce
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:52:45 -0600


I haven't looked at it any further.




There u have it folks....So again I wrote Mark to ask what game magazine asked him to do more testings. I would like to find out once again if he tested only for rootkit involvement and nothing more.

This article posted proves nothing except that there is no rootkit involvement... It still does not answer our questions on other matters.

I for one remain Starforce free!

[GT182]

Well here's what happened. I couldn't copy a DVD I had made from my camcorder. Nothing copyrighted or needing to be copy protected mind you. My burner would start the process but would not finish the burn at all. I ruined 10 dvds trying. Nothing wrong with the DVD ROM or DVD burner and all the firmware is up to date. As soon as I got rid of StarForce all is well and I can copy that dvd all I want. Now this was just this past November, after running SHIII since it came this past year. I built this computer one year ago this month with all new hardware and software. It ran perfectly after changing a bad ATA HDD over an SATA HDD. So it's run with no problems for 11 months but all of a sudden acts up in the one place StarForce will cause problems. Seems strange and a bit fishy.... did to me for a bit until all the StarForce controvercy really got going.

At least I could play SHIII where others couldn't right from the start. What others were telling me I thought was a joke for awhile, it couldn't possible happen. A friend really got looking into it and found a few things that made me think twice on how I took his and their complaints. He doesn't lie about his troubles with SHIII, just as he wouldn't if you took your computer to him for repairs. He's gotten nothing but a run around from the places he's asked for help and has been laugh at by them too. Just as some here laugh. He lost a perfectly good dvd drive in the process. I was lucky and didn't, as my problem was solved by removing StarForce.

Now you know why I won't let this die. If one person listens and gets one other to listen and they in turn keep passing it on and on, then I've done what I've set out to do.


Takeda, I'm serious, don't laugh or make lite at what I and others have to say, and I won't laugh back when a problem arises from StarForce. If you never have a problem with StarForce, great..... you're a lucky one out of the many that aren't. Just hope you never do have a problem either.... it's no joke. No not life threatening by any means, but still not something anyone wants to happen. Especially with the amount of money a computer can cost, even ones we build ourselves and are proud of. I sure don't want to lose the 2 grand I've put into mine.

[Gizzmoe]

Especially with the amount of money a computer can cost, even ones we build ourselves and are proud of. I sure don't want to lose the 2 grand I've put into mine.

Are you now even suggesting that SF is capable of destroying your entire PC? :hmm:

[Mustang]

Now you know why I won't let this die. If one person listens and gets one other to listen and they in turn keep passing it on and on, then I've done what I've set out to do.

Well don't take it too harshly when I tell you I don't feel for your loss. A friend of yours lost a DVD Drive and you lost your burn capabilities, temporarily I might add...

Well my friend that's tough.

But before you go on a cruade such as this I would ask that you consider, I have had to do a complete reinstall of my OS, and throw out a perfectly good Redundant Array of Independent (or Inexpensive) Disk because StarForce ceased the Idle Spin and ruined several sectors including the part with the MBR(Master boot Record) I attribute this to StarForce's software based on looking at the RAID Drive's Log and found Cease\Term Sig:StarForce Enviroment Protection Driver. I have since replaced the effected parts(not cheap) and moved on with my life.

Ocassionally letting others know of the problem I had with it.


So I say to you /AGAIN/ before you continue this Crusade of yours. consider, your problem was minor compared to my own and note that you don't see me telling everyone to BEWARE! I know tons of people who never had a problem and several who have had similar to the problems you describe. A Total problem such as what I expierianced, well... I have yet to meet someone who shares it.
Which means its a slim chance and perhaps more related to my system config then with just StarForce.

The issue about StarForce containing rootkits is moot, because in my opinion StarForce in itself is a DRM>*edit: It's late.

[ThirteenthHouR]

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12970

and

http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?c=83&id=766

StarForce has been checked. No root-kits found
Posted by Dan Bell on 19 January 2006 - 04:00 - Source: StarForce

Since the Sony rootkit fiasco, there have been rumors a flyin' that this software protection software uses rootkits as well. Therefore, to squelch the ignorance, the StarForce folks have had their wares independantly tested and given a clean bill of health. No malware. Well, actually a "well-known online magazine" asked Mark Russinovich, the guy that blew the whistle on Sony to take a peek and “check-out” StarForce for root-kits or any other malwares. He ought to know!

Independent tests showed that StarForce copy protection contains no malware.

The international IT community will not quickly forget the incident with Sony BMG at the end of 2005. The root-kits discovered in music CDs’ copy protection forced Sony to call back millions of discs and suffer serious losses.

Mark Russinovich was the main character of the story. It was him who one day discovered the root-kits and woke up famous the next morning.

Soon after the story with Sony calmed down a well-known online magazine asked Mark to “check-out” StarForce for root-kits or any other malwares.

After detailed examination of copy-protection installed by StarForce Mark came to the conclusion that StarForce protection contains zero root-kits or malwares. While the fact that StarForce drivers have to be sometimes uninstalled separately from the protected application is a bit annoying, it is not the StarForce’s responsibility, but the developer’s.

This conclusion together with the online contest again show that accusations about StarForce protection damaging PCs or operation systems have absolutely no ground.

StarForce Technologies

On the other net rumor and resulting challenge from the protection company from Russia: Win a free trip to Moscow if you can be the first to show your rig was hosed by StarForce! There are also a lot of claims concerning DVD/CD writers malfunctioning after installation and start-up of StarForce protected applications. Prove your case to StarForce and you can take home $5000.00 plus expenses. So far, not one application has been filed at the StarForce web contest hangout, even after 43.000 views, so they upped the ante from 1000 dollars to 5000! Kinda funny that they started at $1000.00 and now they are thinking, "Hell, maybe it really doesn't screw over a PC! Let's raise the prize money!".


It really dies depend on what your classification of Malware is?


The laughable thing is that we have already stepped away from the rootkit association because it does not hide itself, it is their if you know where to look.

However we have quite clearly stated.

1. DMA step down. & occassionally Hardware failure.
2. Incompatibilities with SCSI and SATA
3. Ring 0 access given to Ring 3 level programs.
4. Code 41 errors (This creates the illusion of hardware failure). An illusion that is so good that Ubisoft/Starforce and even drive manufacturers did not know how to cure it. (Guess who cured it? :lol: :up: )

As usual they are ignoring the actual facts. Just to update Russinovich did just do a preliminary check on SF (As in rootkit, nothing else), he has not touched it since. As you can read in a previous post in this thread, Soulcommander has been chatting with him and ask him check it out properly.

Me thinks that is a bit of constructive reporting in that article. :down:

[Mustang]

Okay here's how to make this thread
Kaput!

This thread has not been replied to by the following,
The Avon Lady(The Voice of Reason)
Bill Nichols(SubSim's Intelligence Officer)

So its either,
A) A waste of time.
B) Pointless(Edit* Pointless as in a debate with no possible ending. Except lock)
or
C) More Potentially Dangerous then actually Dangerous.

I say,
D) All of the above.

[ThirteenthHouR]

E) none of the above :lol:

[Mustang]

There is NO E!
There is no Spoon!

[ThirteenthHouR]

Especially with the amount of money a computer can cost, even ones we build ourselves and are proud of. I sure don't want to lose the 2 grand I've put into mine.

Are you now even suggesting that SF is capable of destroying your entire PC? :hmm:

SF itself cannot destroy your entire PC, it does however open Ring 0 (System wide access) to Ring 3 (user level programs).

To be more accurate and I have openly set a challenged to Starforce Technologies to come to NGH headquarters in the UK and prove otherwise.

SF is a Trojan Gateway. (Was this intentional? well we have no evidence of that, however it is very irresponsible of them not to close this massive security hole).

Can 3rd party malware, Viri etc use the hole left open by SF to destroy your computer?

Well let me give you an example what Ring 0 access gives you control of.

The Entire OS. HDD firmware, System Bios, GFX card Firmware, Router/ADSL/DSL modems and firmware, CD/DVD firmware.

Then I will ask do you think damage can be done to your hardware?

Without intentionally scaremongering there are over 5000 types of malware setup to exploit Ring 0 access of which over 1000 will physically destroy hardware, that is why Microsoft spent some much money and time closing it in the first place.

btw that affects Win 2000 through to XP.

responsible coders know not to use undocumented IDE register calls in a Virtual IDE driver. Purely because of incompatibility problems and because of the Security Issues that Ring 0 access creates.


In case you are wondering I have called Starforce a "Trojan Gateway" Directly to Starforce Technologies.

Am I being sued for such a slanderous comment on the net?

Well quite simply no! as that is exactly what Starforces IDE protection driver is. So they actually have not case for litigation.

[ThirteenthHouR]

There is NO E!
There is no Spoon!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Takeda Shingen]

Takeda, I'm serious, don't laugh or make lite at what I and others have to say, and I won't laugh back when a problem arises from StarForce

Well, that hardly seems to be a fair deal. What do I get?

[Mustang]

So I say to you /AGAIN/ before you continue this Crusade of yours. consider, your problem was minor compared to my own and note that you don't see me telling everyone to BEWARE! I know tons of people who never had a problem and several who have had similar to the problems you describe. A Total problem such as what I expierianced, well... I have yet to meet someone who shares it.
Which means its a slim chance and perhaps more related to my system config then with just StarForce.

The issue about StarForce containing rootkits is moot, because in my opinion StarForce in itself is a DMA.

It's your choice, but lets be sure about something here, you had major problems (May be SF associated, then again it may not be), either way it cost you money, and that is ok by you?

It is not okay with me, and I feel people should be told about the problems that others have expierianced but continuing these topics in this manner only serves to Disproportion that.

With people going on about "Something has to be done." "StarForce is a Virus!" or "A friend of mine had to do this or that!" it leads the majority of the people into a state much like Takeda Shingen described.

I lost some hardware yes, it cost me, no I didn't have the money to replace it, I spent several months working up the funds. YES, I have issues with it!

But it wasn't a PERSONAL LOSS! Computers are doomed to fail one day or another. No system will remain Stable Indefinately.
Educate, say your piece and move on. Stop trying to prove a point and just let people judge for themselves. There are topics much like this one everywhere online so let people read those and make up their minds rather then bring up old ones like this or make new ones.

We Do Not Need More Anti-StarForce campaigns, the ones we have are as annoying a reminder as needed.

As for SF being potentially Dangerous I have no doubt in my mind that it COULD or MIGHT cause damage to someone's machine but that is... as I have said many times in this topic: UNPREDICTABLE!
It is a POTENTIAL risk it DOES have DRM Activities such as Remote Trojan and Ring-"0" there that has beeng said. No more need to bring it up AGAIN.

[ThirteenthHouR]

Lets be clear about this, I do educate and I would move on if SF where honest about the mistakes and cleared up their mess. Instead peeps like myself have had to come along and get other peeps systems functional for them again.

An example of the ridiculously bad tech support SF gives: Click Here (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/heroesofmightandmagicv/show_msgs.php?topic_id=25996274&pid=927207&page=0) to read a thread on Gamespot.

What was Ubisofts reponse to me curing the (Code 41) error for them and SF?

Ans: They shut down the SF thread on the Prince of Persia Section of their forums.

They are perfectly entitled to do that however snubbing the peeps that are saving their collective butts is not very good business sense. Its even worse that in fact I am an online journalist that owns a number of top gaming/tech support sites.

The hardware issues are annoyances and not everybody can afford to replace hardware before its time.

However this does not take away the more serious issue that Ring 0 to Ring 3 level programs access makes Sony's Rootkit look like something out of Kindergarten.

I am seriously trying not to scaremonger here, but lets have an example, I know plenty of Doctors that use their surgery PC's for playing games in the odd few minutes break they may get in an day. Heck they like to unwind just like anybody else.

How would you like your medical records broadcasted on the net or maybe somebody suddenly give you HIV positive status? Do you know how hard it is to get your records corrected?

This is just a minor infringement of Databases however it can be more serious than that.

SF is a Hackers dream, a program used by the industry, silently installed onto Gamers systems and leaves them wide open, no matter how good you’re anti spyware, anti virus or firewall is.

Even if those apps could detect it, SF have deals with every major Security Software manufacturer to ignore SF (This includes Microsoft!).

That may not bother you and that is entirely your own choice, but I fully understand what this means and it goes far beyond being able to run a specific game.

[Soulcommander]

OK NOW HEAR THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The LINK is Fake! Or the info in it is a LIE. Mark never talked to any Magazine......I urge all of you to write a letter and express your concern over this deception.
management@cdfreaks.com


I just got a response from Mark and he said this:

No magazine. I don't know where they got that.




Original Email:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Larry
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:21 PM
To: Mark Russinovich
Subject: Starforce


Hello again Mark...
I read this article http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12970 And Was wondering what Magazine contacted you? I thought it was probably I that was first to contact you. Can you name the magazine please?

Thank you,
Larry

[ThirteenthHouR]

To be more productive with my responses.

DMA step down caused by SF I/O authorisation errors on the IDE channels, (WIn 2000 to XP steps down DMA access speed each time this occurs, eventualy that will drop into PIO mode, rendering playing of DVD video almost impossible and attempts to Burn CD/DVD's with just create coasters, thats assuming you can put up with the 1 to 2 hour burn times in that mode).

Warning not all current CD/DVD drives support PIO mode for any extended period of time. They can interpret this mode as an overburned disk and slam the laser mount into the case, stripping the worm gear and trashing the drive. The only cure for that is to replace the drive.

DMA Step down: (How to fix this)

1. Use the SF removal tool. Click Here (http://www.onlinesecurity-on.com/protect.phtml?c=55) to get it.

2. Go to the device manager and (left click) on DVD/CD rom drives,

3. (Right click) on each drive and click uninstall. (cancel the message to reboot)

4. (Left click) IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers.

5. (Right click) the primary IDE channels and (left click) uninstall.

Do the same for the secondary IDE channel (and the IDE controller if its really stubborn).

If no hardware failure has occurred when you reboot, The system will search and reload the drivers, (Reinstating DMA instead of PIO mode access).



(Code 41) in the device manager.

(Code 41) means: "Windows successfully loaded the device driver for this hardware but cannot find the hardware device". In al sense and purposes it looks like Hardware failure.

To workaround this behavior:

Create a restore point start menu-all programs-accessories-system tools-System restore and follw the prompts.

1. Save the filter driver registry entries, just in case of problems, goto start menu-run type in "CMD.exe" without the " " then (left click ok) and at the Command shell prompt type in:

regedit /a SaveFilters.reg HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\Class\{4D36E965-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}


and 'hit' enter, that should save the filters section of the registry.

2. using 'notepad' Copy / Paste the following and save it to a NoFilter.reg file in the root , windows or ,my documents folder:

REGEDIT4

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\Class\{4D36E965-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}]
"UpperFilters"=-
"LowerFilters"=-

3. Merge the NoFilter.reg file with your registry or start menu-run type in "regedit /s NoFilter.reg" without the " " and click OK.

4. Shutdown and restart your computer.

If you notice loss of functionality in any remaining DVD/CD-ROM software, you may need to uninstall and re-install it.

Oddly enough you may also need to uninstall and reinstall windows media player.

Should it all go belly up, boot into safe mode and carry out a system restore to the previously saved restore point, or at a command shell type "regedit /s SaveFilters.reg" to merge the previous filters back.

[ThirteenthHouR]

OK NOW HEAR THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The LINK is Fake! Or the info in it is a LIE. Mark never talked to any Magazine......I urge all of you to write a letter and express your concern over this deception.
management@cdfreaks.com


I did say it sounded very "constructive news". For those of us without a legal Dictionary its A polite way of saying 'it was a pack of lies'. :lol:

I do hope it was just a bit of over zealous reporting rather than back handers being thrown their way.

If I get proof to the contrary, then that news site will see what its like to be at the end of a real online journalist’s keyboard. As you already know I am no holes barred, I will rip them to shreds if this is yet more SF propaganda.

[Soulcommander]

REPEATING................


OK NOW HEAR THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The LINK is Fake! Or the info in it is a LIE. Mark never talked to any Magazine......I urge all of you to write a letter and express your concern over this deception.
management@cdfreaks.com


I just got a response from Mark and he said this:

No magazine. I don't know where they got that.




Original Email:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Larry
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:21 PM
To: Mark Russinovich
Subject: Starforce


Hello again Mark...
I read this article http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12970 And Was wondering what Magazine contacted you? I thought it was probably I that was first to contact you. Can you name the magazine please?

Thank you,
Larry






I THINK THIS LINK NEEDS TO BE CLOSED AND LOCKED AND ALLOWED TO DIE!!!! But I urge ALL of you to write CDFREAKS and give them a piece of your MIND!

Thank you!

Larry

[Sea Demon]

Let me ask a question into how many drivers you will see in the device manager once SF is installed. I think I saw 3. Are there more than that? I just want to make sure I got it completely wiped clean. Sorry to change the subject. Just wondering from anybody out there. Please continue your thread otherwise. :-?

[Mustang]

I am seriously trying not to scaremonger here, but lets have an example, I know plenty of Doctors that use their surgery PC's for playing games in the odd few minutes break they may get in an day. Heck they like to unwind just like anybody else.

How would you like your medical records broadcasted on the net or maybe somebody suddenly give you HIV positive status? Do you know how hard it is to get your records corrected?

This is just a minor infringement of Databases however it can be more serious than that.

SF is a Hackers dream, a program used by the industry, silently installed onto Gamers systems and leaves them wide open, no matter how good you’re anti spyware, anti virus or firewall is.

Just what in the world makes you think it is a Hacker's dream?

Hackers are above all else AGAINST Coorperate Industry. What you have defined is a 'script kiddie' who uses prewritten code to access exploits.

As for your worst case scenario there. I don't think anyone in the medical field would be allowed to play such graphic intensive games on computers that don't have Graphics Cards. And most medical network refuse to link with privately owned PCs because of the security risk.

you are stirring a panic over something POTENTIONALLY dangerous! A Script kiddie would need several things in order to find, target and attack your PC.

your FireWall may not prevent SF from accessing the net, that is true but a Script Kiddie would need your IP, would need to sniff for what port SF is using and then above all else would need to know How to Exploit the Cy-Door. I don't think SF is handing out the secret to that, by the way. But before doing any of this he would have to know you were running SF and were vulnerable.

And YES, if you use a proxy to web-browse and a FireWall such as ZA it is very difficult to get your IP and most script kiddies look for easier prey. And no Hacker would even bother because using an exploit is no challenge.

YOU CAN PROTECT YOURSELF!

[Mustang]

To be more productive with my responses.

DMA step down caused by SF I/O authorisation errors on the IDE channels, (WIn 2000 to XP steps down DMA access speed each time this occurs, eventualy that will drop into PIO mode, rendering playing of DVD video almost impossible and attempts to Burn CD/DVD's with just create coasters, thats assuming you can put up with the 1 to 2 hour burn times in that mode).

Warning not all current CD/DVD drives support PIO mode for any extended period of time. They can interpret this mode as an overburned disk and slam the laser mount into the case, stripping the worm gear and trashing the drive. The only cure for that is to replace the drive.

DMA Step down: (How to fix this)

1. Use the SF removal tool. Click Here (http://www.onlinesecurity-on.com/protect.phtml?c=55) to get it.

2. Go to the device manager and (left click) on DVD/CD rom drives,

3. (Right click) on each drive and click uninstall. (cancel the message to reboot)

4. (Left click) IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers.

5. (Right click) the primary IDE channels and (left click) uninstall.

Do the same for the secondary IDE channel (and the IDE controller if its really stubborn).

If no hardware failure has occurred when you reboot, The system will search and reload the drivers, (Reinstating DMA instead of PIO mode access).



(Code 41) in the device manager.

(Code 41) means: "Windows successfully loaded the device driver for this hardware but cannot find the hardware device". In al sense and purposes it looks like Hardware failure.

To workaround this behavior:

Create a restore point start menu-all programs-accessories-system tools-System restore and follw the prompts.

1. Save the filter driver registry entries, just in case of problems, goto start menu-run type in "CMD.exe" without the " " then (left click ok) and at the Command shell prompt type in:

regedit /a SaveFilters.reg HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\Class\{4D36E965-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}


and 'hit' enter, that should save the filters section of the registry.

2. using 'notepad' Copy / Paste the following and save it to a NoFilter.reg file in the root , windows or ,my documents folder:

REGEDIT4

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\Class\{4D36E965-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}]
"UpperFilters"=-
"LowerFilters"=-

3. Merge the NoFilter.reg file with your registry or start menu-run type in "regedit /s NoFilter.reg" without the " " and click OK.

4. Shutdown and restart your computer.

If you notice loss of functionality in any remaining DVD/CD-ROM software, you may need to uninstall and re-install it.

Oddly enough you may also need to uninstall and reinstall windows media player.

Should it all go belly up, boot into safe mode and carry out a system restore to the previously saved restore point, or at a command shell type "regedit /s SaveFilters.reg" to merge the previous filters back.

Now that is productive, it didn't sound like another "OMG STARFORCE IS THE NEXT Y2K!"

[ThirteenthHouR]

Yep I do try and cure the issues that get raised as do a lot of other so called anti star force peeps.

Sadly hardware failure and the Ring 0 issue are out of my hands.

The hardware failure is an issue with the manufacturers of the drives or Starforce Technologies over causing the step DMA step down in the first place.

The Ring 0 issue can only be cured by removing SF or by cracking the SF virtual driver so it is no longer needed. Obviously we cannot legitimately do the latter one because of Copyright protection laws. So the ball is in Starforce Technologies court.

The alarming thing is that Starforce Technologies are fully aware of the (Code 41) issue, they did not tell peeps how to cure it. Instead they issued a bogus challenge.

Anybody with even the smallest amount of understanding of the technology knows that the continued PIO mode cause of drive failure is highly unpredictable and almost impossible to trigger on demand.

So the challenge is basically rigged in their favour.

Interestingly they still refuse to take up my challenge against them.

[Mustang]

Let me ask a question into how many drivers you will see in the device manager once SF is installed. I think I saw 3. Are there more than that? I just want to make sure I got it completely wiped clean. Sorry to change the subject. Just wondering from anybody out there. Please continue your thread otherwise. :-?

Read pages 1 through 2 of this thread, I posted it somewhere in there.

[Gizzmoe]

SF itself cannot destroy your entire PC, it does however open Ring 0 (System wide access) to Ring 3 (user level programs). [...] Well let me give you an example what Ring 0 access gives you control of.

The Entire OS. HDD firmware, System Bios, GFX card Firmware, Router/ADSL/DSL modems and firmware, CD/DVD firmware.

Then I will ask do you think damage can be done to your hardware?

I never really cared about the Ring 0 situation. The vast majority of gamers log in with admin rights, that alone makes their systems 100% attackable, also on a hardware level. Even in a company environment there sometimes are many Windows installations that don´t use restricted user rights. A virus writer who plans to kill a huge amount of 2000/XP-based PC´s doesn´t need the help of SF and I guess you know that, right?

People are naive if they think that the things you´ve described can´t happen just because SF is no longer on their system. The real danger to a PC are those people who open every suspicious email attachment, who don´t install security updates, who allow all standard XP services to run and so on...

SF is a Hackers dream, a program used by the industry, silently installed onto Gamers systems and leaves them wide open, no matter how good you’re anti spyware, anti virus or firewall is.

As Mustang has already pointed out, you are spreading panic! You should really try to put things into perspective. Again, once you use admin rights your system is, generally speaking, wide open. Even with restricted user rights and without SF a piece of malware can do very nasty things. There´s no such thing as a risk-free PC.

[Godalmighty83]

any chance of changing the thread title now that its been exposed as made up?

[Catfish]

Hello,
Gizzmoe, you do not really think that logging in as administrator with all appropriate rights does the ring 0 thing ? SF does that at the most basic system level i can imagine, and no Firewall or virus protection will even inform you about this ("Spybot" and "Hijack this" probably will if configured properly).

Most recent Windows XP security updates did not inform me about this. There is no use spreading panic but it is allowed to call a spade a spade. If some software makes my system vulnerable i do not say "i don't care, there are other programs that also may harm my PC" - what kind of argument is that ?

I am almost sure that the SF company will not use backdoors to spy on my or some company's PC, but it is physically possible for everyone who knows about this. Hackers, ok. Would you call your own government "hackers" if they spied on your PC for security reasons ? I don't think so. I guess SF is not a problem because a game like SH3 or other software using SF copy "protection" is not installed on most company's LANs. At least not where i am responsible for net security lol.

And what really pi**es me off: I know i have to unistall SF when i want to use my burner, this almost has become a rite in a way, but no post here will make me love or buy any software in the future if it fools around with my private property and my PC's capabilities in that way. My private opinion, ok.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Gizzmoe]

Hello,
Gizzmoe, you do not really think that logging in as administrator with all appropriate rights does the ring 0 thing ?

No, but admin rights gives a virus/trojan/malware the opportunity to install a system driver and then later attack the hardware. For some hardware attacks you don´t even need a special driver, like overclocking the GPU (if the card supports it) or flashing an optical drive. Some boards even allow the BIOS to be flashed under Windows.

My point is simply that this whole thing isn´t black/white, there are many shades of gray. It´s not like "SF installed=everything can happen" and "SF not installed=nothing can happen". Once you start a program that was made to harm your system or was made to spy on you and that your anti-virus/anti-spyware software doesn´t know yet and you are logged in with admin rights you are basically ********d, no matter if SF is installed or not.

[Mustang]

If some software makes my system vulnerable i do not say "i don't care, there are other programs that also may harm my PC" - what kind of argument is that ?

Then you have a problem my friend, because software exploits exist in all software. Even Wordpad can be a potential gateway into your computer. Rants like the one here will not make companies rethink their policies, nor will it grow them a conciounse.

All software is exploitable, the only factor that makes this not such a public outrage is that some exploits are less known on a wider base then others. So if that is your attitude towards software you have quite a few companies to continue giveing an argument to including, "All the ones who wrote and published the software on your computer, your OS and all of the companies who designed your hardware because FirmWare is also exploitable." Hence the need for patches every week.

[Soulcommander]

Rants here will not make a company change there policies is true.
But we use this Media type to generate awareness.
And Ubisoft is now aware of this thread.

Please act professional will you?

SC

[ThirteenthHouR]

I never really cared about the Ring 0 situation. The vast majority of gamers log in with admin rights, that alone makes their systems 100% attackable, also on a hardware level. Even in a company environment there sometimes are many Windows installations that don´t use restricted user rights. A virus writer who plans to kill a huge amount of 2000/XP-based PC´s doesn´t need the help of SF and I guess you know that, right?

Yes I fully agree that a lot of people do run with full admin, however they also tend to run with Anti-virus, Firewalls and Anti spyware apps. (Before you jump on me I know some peeps don't have the technical realisation of the dangers to their system if they don't run some sort of protection, that is why XP SP2's firewall defaults to the on position when SP2 is installed and it will keep nagging you if its turned off and you do not go in an set it to a firewall that you will monitor yourself. If you do that without any form of firewall then basically you would not care even if starforce allowed 100,000,000 systems to be killed. So basically your argument is fundementally flawed in its example.

I will say in reply, yes any one with malicious intent can gain access , but why give them a helping hand?

I am really trying to understand your uncooperative attitude?

Do you have vested interest in DRM's?

If not why are you on the defensive?

I ask this because at any time have I forced anything upon you, like "You must boycott starforce"?

In fact I have not!

False information was being posted and by the request of another member I came hear to post the facts. So that those who want to have their systems secure can at least be aware of a security issue.

Your afforementioned response is as much as saying, "Gamers are too stupid so why bother". Personally I think they will be quite offended by such an insinuation.

People are naive if they think that the things you´ve described can´t happen just because SF is no longer on their system. The real danger to a PC are those people who open every suspicious email attachment, who don´t install security updates, who allow all standard XP services to run and so on...

Excuse me did anybody at anytime say, removing Starforce will secure your system 100% in fact did anyone even pose that question in the first place?

Well in fact no they did not, btw how long have you been a clairvoyant? I am just asking as you seem to know what everybody is thinking without actually asking them...


As Mustang has already pointed out, you are spreading panic! You should really try to put things into perspective. Again, once you use admin rights your system is, generally speaking, wide open. Even with restricted user rights and without SF a piece of malware can do very nasty things. There’s no such thing as a risk-free PC.

Spreading panic is only normally referred in such sistuations if such comments are made without processes of correcting the situation being put firmly in place.

Read this thread again.

DMA step down: Howto on correcting this problem is posted.

(Code 41) error: Howto on correcting this problem is posted.

Ring 0: A howto remove Starforce is posted. Due to Copyright Protection laws we cannot legally post a Starforce patch even if we had one. So until SF get off their backsides this is the only cure for that issue.


Now if you had cared to research the information relating to myself you would that I am a Software developer, an online journalist and that I own and run a number of tech support sites. As an example http://www.n-gage-help.com if you look in the forums their, you will see that recently we have added pro and anti Starforce sections. This is so that both sides have equal footing on the arguments that they may want to present. (Which is considerably more responsible than the falsified news report on CDfreaks that this thread refers to)

I have a reputation of being fair and honest in my responses. I would not endorse anything such as a boycott without fully researching possible fixes for the scenario's that have presented themselves.

There is more to this SF situation than is being declared but I will not go public upon that until I have the full documented evidence to support it.

The only thing I can legally state at the moment is look up Carnivore (and I do not mean meat eaters) you can draw your own conclusions from what you find.

Getting back to what can be declared. If SF had come forward and said even off the record, “we are having problems, give us a few weeks to sort this”. Then those of us who understand how the system works would have taken a step back, or as in my case I would have volunteered the technical data to help resolve these problems.

Instead they ignore the issues, release bogus sales spiel in new reports and create a joke of a challenge. In which if you do understand the processes. It’s nothing more than very bad Hacker style PR 'stacked in their favour'.

Let me ask you something, do you not know who Starforce really are?

Do you not remember their black hat days in the 1980's?

Don't get me wrong most of us where black hats in them days, all I am saying is nobody trusted them as far as they could throw them when they where black hats. So it would be crazy to trust them as White hats.

Anyway I have no argument with you, I don’t totally understand your negative stance on peeps trying to help fellow gamers out of ridiculous situation that they never should have been put in, but that negative stance is your choice and in no way am I going to force my opinions upon you.

Again if you choose to run SF with all the risks involved then that is also your choice.

All we are doing is supplying the information so that others who may not know about SF. also have that choice.

As the Games companies and Starforce Technologies never gave them a choice as to if SF is installed on their systems or not.

Please don’t try quoting the EULA, as EULA’s cannot cover security issues, even if they are unintentional, if SF had been above board about this then yes they could have used the EULA as a defence. However that defence went out the window when they resorted to bad pressing and flaming peeps who tried to help other with the SF issues.

You may notice that despite me being extremely high profile. SF has not yet dared to issue such comments about me.

[Mustang]

Rants here will not make a company change there policies is true.
But we use this Media type to generate awareness.
And Ubisoft is now aware of this thread.

Please act professional will you?

SC

I'm fairly certain Ubi knew about this thread since the start considering many SH3 Developer are Avid Sub-Gamers and this place is the authority on Sub Games.

As for acting professional. I fail to see what kind of skill it takes to boycott and petition something. Awareness, is that what you think justifies spamming every forum on the net? If you want to educate people say your piece and then move on, stop saying about how valiantly you try to reach the people. Stay on TOPIC. You want people to know about your problems, that's fine. But you don't have to go everywhere thinking you are some freedom fighter with a just Cause and tell everyone this is right or that is not as if you were some authority on what is right or not to begin with.

And next time ask the owners of a board before you try and wage some kind of media war with a coorperate office which is of no relation on someone else's forums.

[ThirteenthHouR]

Really all I can say is come on guys lighten up a bit, there is no point to these arguments, nobody seems to be disagreeing with the fact that SF is a nasty bit of software, of which even the creators do not seem to be quite sure of its real purpose (if you read their sales spiel)

Is a boycott the right way to go?

Well nobody really knows until we try it!

So responding to pessimistic "Why bother posts" is really not worth our time. If persons making such posts really had anything productive to say then they would have said it.

As I said before its their choice to be that way, others with more common sense approach to their computer security will not pay any attention to their flamebait.


I will rise to one part and only one part: because of how serious that acusation is.

Spamming?

I suggest you find out the actual definition of that before you start making a serious acusation of illegal activity. We did not start this thread, nor did we post any of the falsified information that was being presented as fact.

Personally I am an IT/Games developer. With over 25 years professional experience in the field. I have not nor do I ever intend to spam other webmasters sites.


I suggest you read the FAQ.

What are Subsim.com's editorial policies?
The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general. As such, we retain the right to edit and/or delete posts we find offensive. We also have the right to ban users who contribute to poisoning the well. Just as a radio talk host has the right to decide who he airs and a newspaper editor decides whose letters he prints and whose he throws away, the moderators in the Radio Room forums have final say on rants and spews they decide should be cut.


We supplied factual information in relation to a misleading post that could have harmed fellow gamers systems, the flames that followed against us are not actually permitted here.

[Mustang]

Spam isn't illegal, where in the world did legality come from?

I wasn't awhere anything said here was costituted as a flame.

As for your credentials, you have made them quite clear. Which is my point. Everyone here just keeps saying the same bloody thing. You complain about Ring-"0" Gizzmoe says he wants proof its a PRESENT THREAT and SC is trying to make yet another Topic into a big hot topic for his ANTI-SF campaign. And I'm just repeating myself which I really don't like and if you read this topic you would see I posted in here about much the same thing you yourself have said.

So all we have here is a topic that goes nowhere with the Anti-SF the Pro-SF and the Neutral-SF in yet another long and drawn out topic

My complaint here is that this topic was idle and in the few days from when I first posted, I learned from many of the members here that they don't appreciate topics of this sort. So I will say based on what I was told by the subSim patrons here and again suggest you ask /THEM/ before bringing the war against SF over here.

Your right, you did not start this topic and it was based on falsified info but enough about this "We're just protecting others" nonsense, you know a word to the wise, "The Path to Destruction is often paved with good intentions." you damage your position more then reinforce it, you spread your topics too far for them to serve any real purpose.

[Gizzmoe]

Excuse me did anybody at anytime say, removing Starforce will secure your system 100% in fact did anyone even pose that question in the first place?

Well in fact no they did not, btw how long have you been a clairvoyant? I am just asking as you seem to know what everybody is thinking without actually asking them...

Quite a few people here and elsewhere on the Internet don´t know very much about computers. This can result in informations being misunderstood or misinterpreted, that´s normal. Generally people are somewhat worried about SF, but many have decided not to remove it, because it hasn´t affected them or they simply want to play the games and they don´t know how to play the games without SF. One could also say that they are not "worried enough" yet, so they don´t remove SF.

Any additional negative information about SF is usually being presented by people with an agenda. This has resulted in sometimes very one-sided informations. The use of fear tactics - intentionally or not - was and still is quite common. Also sometimes rumors are being presented as facts, because they "want to believe".

What I´m trying to do here is to put things into perspective, nothing more, nothing less. I only (need to) do this if someone posts informations in a way that could lead to unhelpful paranoia/panic.

PS: You said you are a software developer, an online journalist and that you own and run a number of tech support sites. I´m not impressed. In your post you tried to portrait me as a bad boy, said that I have an "uncooperative attitude", tried to imply that I´ve basically said "Gamers are too stupid so why bother", imply that I have a "negative stance on peeps trying to help fellow gamers out of ridiculous situation" and so on. You shouldn´t have said all this, it was very unprofessional and it´s simply not true.

There is more to this SF situation than is being declared but I will not go public upon that until I have the full documented evidence to support it.

The only thing I can legally state at the moment is look up Carnivore (and I do not mean meat eaters) you can draw your own conclusions from what you find.

I know what Carnivore is, but it´s hard for me to draw a conclusion in relation to SF. If I would be paranoid I would say that if you find what I think you could find it would be one of the biggest scandals in the history of IT and that you put yourself in danger just for trying to find evidence. But as I´m not paranoid I just say "Let us wait and see".

[jumpy]

Damn! so much rhetoric lol
All I know for sure it that having removed SF my DVD-RW no longer spinns up endlessly when I boot my machine. It never did it before SF, it did it during SF, and now SF is gone from my system it doesn't do it anymore.
Suggestions like 'why don't you format your system and test your stuff because how can you categorically say SF is causing the issues' is just not practical or fair for most home users. Indeed I don't see why I should have to play at 'beta-tester' for a product that I had to pay good monety for - therein lies the root of the problem for most users and the split between those who know SF is responsible and those who think SF has nothing to do with these problems, and those people like me who noticed something amiss with their system and didn't want to gamble on the chance that everything would turn out just fine if they leave things to get on by themselves.

I'm not going to comment on weather I think SF problems are somehow 'deliberate' or in some way intentional on the part of the developers, how would I know anyway? I'm just little old me who noticed that my PC was experiencing some of the symptoms of the 'troubles' associated with SF- information about which I saw right here on Subsim.com.

Impartiality and benefit of the doubt is all very well and good Gizzmoe, but I'm sure you can understand how this can rankle those who are fairly sure SF did something fairly serious to their system, particularity when SF is so reticent on giving those who might have trouble a voice with which to explore the problems and solutions raised. I'm reasonably sure SF was not behaving itself on my machine, wheather this is a reasult of some system conflict or shoddy programing, I really don't care, suffice to say I was not willing to trust to luck that everything would turn out ok. Does this mean I have an agenda too?

I think possibly the fact that there is so little official response to the 'troubles' with SF is part of the problem here. Regardless of the truth of the matter, stating that people who are having trouble and complaining about SF are 'beginner level hackers' was a recipie for disaster from the very outset.

Fortunately for me and many others, there are places like subsim.com where average users can get together and share information (technically correct and informed or other otherwise makes no difference to me). Hopefully this dissemination will improve the SF situation one way or another. As the saying goes 'there's no smoke without fire'.
Without any official response to the questions raised with SF the rest of us are doomed to repeat the same old points of view and experience without any real progress one way or another. Until such a response is forthcoming, I can't see any other outcome other than what we have already; Believers, non-believers and agnostics hehe and all that those terms imply.

[Gizzmoe]

Impartiality and benefit of the doubt is all very well and good Gizzmoe, but I'm sure you can understand how this can rankle those who are fairly sure SF did something fairly serious to their system

Yes, I can understand that. By the way, benefit of doubt, yes, but I´m not impartial. The sooner SF in its current form goes away the better.

[ThirteenthHouR]

Rather than get caught up in whats going on here.

Agenda: if an agenda means to give people the benefit of choice, then yes I have an agenda.

Yes I support a Boycott, but only because there is no other option out there for the average gamer to legally voice their opinion in a manner that will even be remotely listened to by the corporations.

Anybody that believes that by reducing profit that you won't get the attention of corporations, is sadly mistaken.

Like do you think the anti-piracy software is just there to protect the average programmers rights?

It's their to protect companies profits, heck I am not going to complain about that because if there was no money in it then we would not get decent big budget software.

What I am more concerned with is that the problems SF presents not only harms the consumers trust in a product, it can potentially do serious damage to the very industry that we rely upon for our games and apps if it was allowed to continue in the current format.

So we come to The problem we have with either the boycott or informing peeps so they have choice, is that we are also damaging that consumer trust and I accept that its very fine line we tread between active opposition and more radical elements that join for the sake of screwing up the system.


Setting aside the boycott and SF security issues:

Realistically everybody loves their games. However how many of you would be happy with the fact that if you upgrade your system that the games will cease to function because of these DRM's. Not because the game itself in non compatible.

SATA is now the de-facto standard on new systems and the clash between SF and SATA is well documented.


On another note, yes spam is illegal....

[Soulcommander]

13thour...Let me make a suggestion bro.

Lets not post on this thread any longer. Let these that support Starforce talk amongst themselves.

John Channing for your information was contacted by me long before I posted. And he was contacted about this thread as well.

As far as Ubisoft they were NOT aware of this thread. I contacted them about it and also CDfreaks post and the Starforce article.
They knew nothing about it, and are now getting the information to the proper authorities. I guess you have no idea who I am.


My intentions are to help people and inform...They always have been.

And I am surprised that Gizzmoe who has spent hours on the phone with me has not come on here to defend my intentions.

As far as this thread is concerned the poster should have done his homework before he posted. The link provided to cdfreaks is not completly accurate and I beleive they hijacked information from previous posts and such and added to them what they felt would give them some credibility.

Again I suggest that this thread just die or the title of it be changed...It is not helping anyone and for anyone to find the truth about the link provided by Drebble they would have to reach far down into the pages to see my post.


SO again.............I post this:

The LINK has info in it that is a LIE. Mark never talked to any Magazine......I urge all of you to write a letter and express your concern over this deception.
management@cdfreaks.com


I just got a response from Mark and he said this:

No magazine. I don't know where they got that.




Original Email:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Larry
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:21 PM
To: Mark Russinovich
Subject: Starforce


Hello again Mark...
I read this article http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12970 And Was wondering what Magazine contacted you? I thought it was probably I that was first to contact you. Can you name the magazine please?

Thank you,
Larry

[Soulcommander]

13thour...Let me make a suggestion bro.

Lets not post on this thread any longer. Let these that support Starforce talk amongst themselves.

John Channing for your information was contacted by me long before I posted. And he was contacted about this thread as well.

As far as Ubisoft they were NOT aware of this thread. I contacted them about it and also CDfreaks post and the Starforce article.
They knew nothing about it, and are now getting the information to the proper authorities. I guess you have no idea who I am.


My intentions are to help people and inform...They always have been.

And I am surprised that Gizzmoe who has spent hours on the phone with me has not come on here to defend my intentions.

As far as this thread is concerned the poster should have done his homework before he posted. The link provided to cdfreaks is not completly accurate and I beleive they hijacked information from previous posts and such and added to them what they felt would give them some credibility.

Again I suggest that this thread just die or the title of it be changed...It is not helping anyone and for anyone to find the truth about the link provided by Drebble they would have to reach far down into the pages to see my post.


SO again.............I post this:

The LINK has info in it that is a LIE. Mark never talked to any Magazine......I urge all of you to write a letter and express your concern over this deception.
management@cdfreaks.com


I just got a response from Mark and he said this:

No magazine. I don't know where they got that.




Original Email:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Larry
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:21 PM
To: Mark Russinovich
Subject: Starforce


Hello again Mark...
I read this article http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12970 And Was wondering what Magazine contacted you? I thought it was probably I that was first to contact you. Can you name the magazine please?

Thank you,
Larry

[Gizzmoe]

And I am surprised that Gizzmoe who has spent hours on the phone with me has not come on here to defend my intentions.

Defend your intentions? What are you talking about? What did you expect me to do?

[bradclark1]

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/31/starforce_threatens_.html

[Gizzmoe]

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/31/starforce_threatens_.html

What a fool, he doesn´t deserve any better. It´s no wonder that they react when you write libelous things like "The software causes system instability and crashes." Or as he today wrote again one day after his original article "StarForce attempts to stop game customers from copying their property, but it has the side-effects of destabilizing and crashing the computers on which it is installed."

Doh!

[NZ_Wanderer]

I notice that someone over at "C-Net" was threatened as well by Starforce on November 17th...

[ThirteenthHouR]

Some advice for peeps in Subsim making comments about Starforce think clearly about how you word things.

Starforce is not a virus. Do not say it is or they will sue you.

It does however act as a Trojan Gateway. As in malicious 3rd part apps can exploit its security holes to gain Ring 0 access.

Starforce does not directly trash your drives:

It does however trigger DMA step down to PIO mode,which can damage some CD/DVD roms if run in that mode for an extended period of time.

Starforce does not hack your system:

It does however make it easier for peeps to gain access (see Ring0 issue above).

Starforce does not trash your IDE controller channels:

It does mess up the filters section of the Registry, which in turn causes Windows to kick out a (Code 41) error in the device manager.


Yes I know basically we are saying the same thing, but in this manner it is factual and cannot be open to litigation. ;)

[AG124]

Starforce does not directly trash your drives:

It does however trigger DMA step down to PIO mode,which can damage some CD/DVD roms if run in that mode for an extended period of time.

Starforce does not trash your IDE controller channels:

It does mess up the filters section of the Registry, which in turn causes Windows to kick out a (Code 41) error in the device manager.

I am afraid to get involved in such a controversial subject, so I will just ask one quick question which may sound stupid. Is there a possibility that Starforce could have any effect on the board's NEC controllers (i.e. floppy controllers)?

I haven't had any problems with any of my optical drives, but one of my floppy drives is acting strangely - it can read some disks but they show up blank when there are files on them, and some cannot be read. All disks work fine when used on another drive in another computer with the same OS (XP Pro). Also, some show up as 1.2MB when they are actually 360KB.

Probably nothing to do with Starforce, but I like to be cautious. :yep: And I can't figure out what is wrong with the drive.

[ThirteenthHouR]

It does not sound like a SF issue. (Although it could be possible) it actually sounds more like pending floppy disk drive failure or a loose FDD cable.

FDD's only have limited life span. However they are just glorified tape recorder. So they suffer from the same oxide built up that you get on the azimuth heads of your audio cassette players.

You may want to try using a FDD head cleaner to remove the oxide that builds up with usage.

Although a new FDD can be a little as £5.

[AG124]

It's a 5.25" floppy that I got for free from a scrapped 486 so I don't think I can buy a brand new one anyway. :lol: (5.25" floppies seem to last a lot longer than 3.5" ones though) I could replace the drive cheaply (probably for free if I could find another junk computer) if I had to, but I am more worried that problem is with the controller on the motherboard itself - and a DFI PM-12 board would cost a little more than a Samsung 1.2MB floppy drive. :o


But you're right - it doesn't seem like a Starforce problem. I just wanted to check. I will now back out of this discussion without taking sides, as I have no other problems to report and do not want to add to the controversy.

[U-49]

... I guess you have no idea who I am.

lol ... a legend in his own mind.

[ThirteenthHouR]

... I guess you have no idea who I am.

lol ... a legend in his own mind.


Maybe, but your jaw would hit the floor if you actually knew who I am ;)

But this is not about stroking our ego's

[Soulcommander]

... I guess you have no idea who I am.

lol ... a legend in his own mind.

Very funny....So you know...I was working in cooperation with Ubisoft on an Investigation involving Starforce.

Thats all I was referring to.

[ThirteenthHouR]

It's a 5.25" floppy that I got for free from a scrapped 486 so I don't think I can buy a brand new one anyway. :lol: (5.25" floppies seem to last a lot longer than 3.5" ones though) I could replace the drive cheaply (probably for free if I could find another junk computer) if I had to, but I am more worried that problem is with the controller on the motherboard itself - and a DFI PM-12 board would cost a little more than a Samsung 1.2MB floppy drive. :o


But you're right - it doesn't seem like a Starforce problem. I just wanted to check. I will now back out of this discussion without taking sides, as I have no other problems to report and do not want to add to the controversy.

btw I did forget to mention that I am aware of some serious chipset problems, but I can't disclose that until I have investigated it further as I do not want to start rumours ( I deal in facts).

As in if its SF or 3rd party malicious apps exploiting the security holes.

One of the tell tail signs that is a the signature of this issue occuring. Is the need to manually activate SF games over and over and over again.

[Syxx_Killer]

Well, I don't want to get caught up in this melee, :P but here is something I saw on Tech Dirt's site today:

Starforce's Amusing "Proof" That Its Copy Protection Doesn't Cause Problems

http://techdirt.com/articles/20060201/1842220_F.shtml

[bradclark1]

Good read Syxx. Especially the comment underneath.

[Takeda Shingen]

Maybe, but your jaw would hit the floor if you actually knew who I am ;)

You're Elvis, aren't you? I knew he was still alive.

[ThirteenthHouR]

Maybe, but your jaw would hit the floor if you actually knew who I am ;)

You're Elvis, aren't you? I knew he was still alive.

OMG! how did you guess :P :P :P :P :P

Only joking :P