Raiders of the Deep is back

[kapitanfred]

After a long absence, Raiders of the Deep has been revamped and is back in action. It now cateres for both SH II and SH III.

So if you are new to SH II or SH III why not drop in, check it out here at http://www.raiders-of-the-deep.com, perhaps join up and become part of re-enacting the life of a u-boat commander.

I did

War is declared shortly.

[Konovalov]

I'm not a fan of the use of the Swastika on the homepage. I did see the note below:

Note: The use of the Hakenkreuz and other WWII German symbols are for historical purposes only.

However I just don't agree there is a need for it to be displayed.

[Raiders]

http://www.raiders-of-the-deep.com/poster/a28aa4e3.jpg

Germany needs you...
Captain a U-Boat in the Atlantic.
Join today.
Raiders of the Deep

http://www.Raiders-of-the-Deep.com

[The Avon Lady]

The site's Guidelines page (http://www.raiders-of-the-deep.com/Raiders_06.html) states:

"and “Wolves at War” a dedicated Silent Hunter III campaign community . While there is no official connection between communities, Raiders owes itself creatively to the great bunch of people working at these other communities and campaigns.

However, unlike the others, we at Raiders present the Silent Hunter II and III game as a re-enactment of history, mixing fun with learning making it as real as it gets.

The last paragraph quoted above describes Wolves at War to a tee.

[SUBMAN1]

I'm not a fan of the use of the Swastika on the homepage. I did see the note below:

Note: The use of the Hakenkreuz and other WWII German symbols are for historical purposes only.

However I just don't agree there is a need for it to be displayed.

What's the big deal about a Swastika? So what? This is not a symbol created by Germany, only used by Germany. The Swastika has been around for 3000 years so get over it already! :)

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Some interesting tidbits on the Swastika itself from about.com:

The History of the Swastika
From Jennifer Rosenberg,
Your Guide to 20th Century History.

The swastika is an extremely powerful symbol. The Nazis used it to murder millions of people, but for centuries it had positive meanings. What is the history of the swastika? Does it now represent good or evil?

The Oldest Known Symbol

The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.

During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

China - wan
England - fylfot
Germany - Hakenkreuz
Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
India - swastika
Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also have long used the symbol of the swastika.
The Original Meaning

The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.

A Change in Meaning

In the 1800s, countries around Germany were growing much larger, forming empires; yet Germany was not a unified country until 1871. To counter the feeling of vulnerability and the stigma of youth, German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, because it had ancient Aryan/Indian origins, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.

By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.

In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.

Hitler and the Nazis

In 1920, Adolf Hitler decided that the Nazi Party needed its own insignia and flag. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495)

On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the Nazi Party.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)

Because of the Nazis' flag, the swastika soon became a symbol of hate, antisemitism, violence, death, and murder.

What Does the Swastika Mean Now?

There is a great debate as to what the swastika means now. For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.

These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today's society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Chirag Badlani shares a story about one time when he went to make some photocopies of some Hindu Gods for his temple. While standing in line to pay for the photocopies, some people behind him in line noticed that one of the pictures had a swastika. They called him a Nazi.

Unfortunately, the Nazis were so effective at their use of the swastika emblem, that many do not even know any other meaning for the swastika. Can there be two completely opposite meanings for one symbol?

In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.

Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.

But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.

[The Avon Lady]

Not again! :roll: :zzz:

[whiterat]

Subman1 I am with you on this one.

Nothing wrong with the Symbols appearing in a game which is based on the Second world war from a German perspective!

Some people can be awfully sensitive about something which is now basically meaningless.

[SUBMAN1]

Subman1 I am with you on this one.

Nothing wrong with the Symbols appearing in a game which is based on the Second world war from a German perspective!

Some people can be awfully sensitive about something which is now basically meaningless.

Thats why I posted about Hoplophobia in a different thread - its just an irrational fear or phobia!

-S

[Marhkimov]

OT a bit...

Sure, the Hakenkreuz is real and part of history. When I play SH3, I certainly don't mind seeing it displayed on the German flag, or on the deck of the Bismarck, or in the career menu screens.

But on the frontpage of a website, where it is totally unnecessary.... Do you really need that? Understand me though; the Hakenkreuz is definately not wrong, but I just don't think displaying it prominently is needed.



On a similar note, I acknowlege that the word "******" exists, but we shouldn't go around calling black people ******s... Realistically it is a part of language and human history, but does it need to be used/overused?

[Raiders]

Sure, the Hakenkreuz is real and part of history. When I play SH3, I certainly don't mind seeing it displayed on the German flag, or on the deck of the Bismarck, or in the career menu screens.

But on the frontpage of a website, where it is totally unnecessary.... Do you really need that? Understand me though; the Hakenkreuz is definately not wrong, but I just don't think displaying it prominently is needed.


In both the Raiders of the Deep site and in the site below, the Hakenkreuz is displayed on the German Naval Flag. Raiders, does not just display the Hakenkreuz, just to display it. We are not a site of hate, but one of keeping history alive, for two reasons. One so the past does not just fade away, and second, so some parts of history never happen again.

http://u-boot.org/uboot/u-19/

Just a note. To me the lighting bolts of the SS were more a hated symbol as it was the SS that ran the camps, and not the German Navy. As I said it is just a thought.

[TLAM Strike]

At the Commanders Academy & Dive Center (http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/index.php) I use the Hammer & Sickle and the Red Star (taken from the Naval Jack of the Soviet Navy) in my signature yet that doesn’t mean I'm a Communist, I'm just an fan of the Russian Navy and my favorite DW ship happens to be the Russian Kilo class Submarine. I think anyone who plays subsims if smart enough to make the distinction between a symbol used for hate and oppression and a symbol used for historical reasons.

Incase you haven't seen my sig from the CADC:
http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/4747/kilosubjokesig7oh.jpg

[TteFAboB]

It's the anti-Nazi Nazi-police.

In their attempt to prevent offenses to victims of Hitler, they end up being Nazis themselves, using Goebbelian symbolism, and giving credit of man-made doings (holocaust, war, etc..) to an inanimate object.

Long live the Nazi flag, it's the piece of cloth with the greatest imbue of human responsabilities on Earth, lucky the Nazi flag wasn't sentenced in the Nuremberg trials so that we can enjoy the fun of holding it accountable today.

[Marhkimov]

... lucky the Nazi flag wasn't sentenced in the Nuremberg trials so that we can enjoy the fun of holding it accountable today.
It didn't have to be sentenced at the Nuremberg trials. It's already outlawed in over half the world.

[TteFAboB]

... lucky the Nazi flag wasn't sentenced in the Nuremberg trials so that we can enjoy the fun of holding it accountable today.
It didn't have to be sentenced at the Nuremberg trials. It's already outlawed in over half the world.

And Nazis disappeared in over half the world because of it, as Nazis are a direct consequence of freedom of symbolism.

It's true, Hitler's flag was banned, but the flag itself doesn't mean anything, it can't, a flag doesn't think, thus, it can't follow an ideology, Hitler's flag in the hands of a neo-nazi means hate, anti-semitism, totalitarism and etc., but this same flag, if taken away from the hands of this neo-nazi and dropped on a calm street, left to rot at the side-walk, being stepped on by the occasional pedestrian, the meaning this flag once had in the hands of a nazi disappears, it becomes nothing but a piece of junk, though depending on the fabric I think it could be nicely used to mop the floor, then, as a cleaning rag, the flag gains an entirely different meaning, it is now an agent of good, it helps sweep the dirt away and keep the floor clean.

When I watch a documentary or a movie about WW2 or when I look for pictures or when I play a WW2 game I expect to run into Hitler's flag, just like I expect to run into every other historically accurate flag, in this historical context the flag is nothing but a shadow of the past, I don't think documentarists, movie directors and game developers are Nazis when they over-use/over-display the Nazi flag, if it's a movie about Hitler and he is followed everywhere I expect to run into alot of flags at the HQ's and official buildings.

So I don't think this guy is using the Nazi flag to glorify Nazism, but even if he was and even if it was possible to make every single Nazi Germany flag to disappear, they would come up with a new symbol, like I mentioned earlier, you can ban the symbol but that doesn't get rid of the Nazi and the Nazi is the thinking agent (and not the flag) so he will create a new flag, a new symbol, like this Mexican Nazi Party flag:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4263/mx7dpns21gw.gif

It's the Nazis that need to be contained, their flags are irrelevant, they wouldn't hesitate doing the holocaust all over again, whatever flag they use, so if anyone is willing to remove Nazi flags from SH3 websites, I would expect the same determination in eliminating these real, non-virtual, Nazis too.

[Konovalov]

But on the frontpage of a website, where it is totally unnecessary.... Do you really need that? Understand me though; the Hakenkreuz is definately not wrong, but I just don't think displaying it prominently is needed.

Exactly. :yep: I was referring to it's use on the homepage as I said:

I'm not a fan of the use of the Swastika on the homepage.

I never said anything as to it should be banned. I don't agree with that at all. This is the same as my position on Mein Kamp in which there was a topic post on this long ago. In that I was of the view that it should stay in print because it is a important historical text and a reminder of what we should watch out for so as not to repeat the horrors of the past. My issue here with was the prominence of the symbol on the homepage of the website. Nothing more. :yep:

[whiterat]

Firstly, I do not wish to criticize anyone for their views, and everyone is fully entitled to their opinion.

Personally I really don't care about the use of the Hakenkreuz. It is a part of History and meaningless today. It dosen't upset me to see it and I do not have any irrational fear of it.

I also like my games to be realistic. Therefore I welcome the use of the Naval flag in these games. Far better than some invented Hakenkreuz like flag, which I have seen in some games and frankly even annoys me.

One thing I would say, I have had a look at the Raiders site and to be honest the symbol isn't exactly plastered all over it!!! And it's debatable as to whether you would even call it prominent!

[SUBMAN1]

Firstly, I do not wish to criticize anyone for their views, and everyone is fully entitled to their opinion.

Personally I really don't care about the use of the Hakenkreuz. It is a part of History and meaningless today. It dosen't upset me to see it and I do not have any irrational fear of it.

I also like my games to be realistic. Therefore I welcome the use of the Naval flag in these games. Far better than some invented Hakenkreuz like flag, which I have seen in some games and frankly even annoys me.

One thing I would say, I have had a look at the Raiders site and to be honest the symbol isn't exactly plastered all over it!!! And it's debatable as to whether you would even call it prominent!

Well said