Who had sunk the Bismarck?

[HanSolo78]

hello sailors!

just wanna know what the majority is thinking of this old mystery...
so.. write down your thoughts!

[Dutch]

Oh Boy, I think its a bad idea to even start this topic, to many hotheaded politcally people with overrated opinions but here is mine.

I personally think that the Germans sank the Bismarck themselves. Yes the British had shelled it to any inch of its life, but in the end I believe whole heartedly that Germans scuttled the ship.

No I'm not a neo Nazi or a Brit hater, I think if it hadn't been for the brits the germans whouldn't have scuttled it :P

Still I belive that in the end, it was the germans.

[Ducimus]

Havent read into it enough to hazard a guess.

Im neither german, nor british, so either one is fine with me. All i know is, germany had a big honking battleship in WW2 that made the allies really worried. They went out of their way to try and sink it, cause they coudlnt allow that thing running around.. Big battle, (broken rudder?), lottsa shells, few survivors, wreck is found years later and is featured in a national geographic.

[Bluewings]

By Chuck hawks :

"Every so often I receive an e-mail raising the question of whether the German battleship Bismarck was sunk by the British or scuttled by her crew on that fateful day in May 1941. I have promised that one day I would write a short piece about the subject, and I guess that day has finally come.

Frankly, I am mystified by the interest in this question, as the answer is obvious: it doesn't matter. The Bismarck's crew set the scuttling charges and opened the sea cocks (as per protocol) on the sinking Bismarck because she had been completely defeated, was no longer seaworthy, was beyond repair, and was being abandoned.

So the question of whether the Dorsetshire's torpedoes got to her before the actions of her own crew is irrelevant. The battle was over either way, and the Bismarck was going down. She absolutely was not going to make it to any safe haven. She had been utterly defeated, destroyed by a superior force.

The indisputable cause of these events? The British fleet commanded by Admiral Tovey. The Royal Navy properly deserves credit for sinking the Bismarck.

In conclusion, let quote a passage from Ludovic Kennedy's excellent book Pursuit - The Chase and Sinking of the Battleship Bismarck describing the actual sinking of the Bismarck as observed by the British (Mr. Kennedy was there in person):

"And as he left he [Adm. Tovey] made a general signal to ships in company: 'Any ship with torpedoes to close Bismarck and torpedo her.' "

"Only one ship, Dorsetshire, still had torpedoes, and when Tovey's signal reached her, Captain Martin had already anticipated it. Closing to a mile and a half on Bismarck's starboard beam, she fired two torpedoes, both of which hit. She then went round the other side, at just over a mile fired another, which also hit."

"Far off now in King George V, half-way to the horizon, Tovey saw through his glasses the great ship slowly heel over to port until her funnel was level with the water, go on turning until she was completely upside down. The stern dipped below the surface of the water, then the main keel: the great flared bows were the last to go . . .."

Cheers .

[Bluewings]

On the other hand :

James Cameron, who'd made the movie Titanic, launched an American expedition into the Bismarck wreck.

Bismarck was only slightly smaller than Titanic, and it was three thousand feet deeper -- three miles deep! There they found evidence to support the scuttling story.
They found torpedo holes, but none seemed to penetrate beyond the protective outer hull.

Cheers .

[CCIP]

Frankly, I am mystified by the interest in this question, as the answer is obvious: it doesn't matter.

:up:

The real credit, ultimately, should go to the Swordfish which messed up her steering. After that had happened, I think the Bismarck was doomed, whichever way it was to go down.

[Hartmann]

I´ve never seen the bismarck yet in a patrol :roll:

My bigger prey in a patrol was in Silent hunter 1

I sunk the yamato, but it takes 12 torpedoes.

[Ducimus]

Saw it in harbor once when leaving Willshimhaven to go on patrol.

[Wulfmann]

The Bismarck was sinking when the Germans scuttled the ship. They did so not to have bragging rights. He was shot up to the point of being defenseless and they feared the indignation of being boarded.
The ship would have sunk without the scuttling but they hurried it up.
I saw Cameron’s nice show and he did some fine photography and a great shot of the oh so jammed rudder, what doomed the ship anyway one looks at it.
But, he is ignorant of what torpedo damage is and his assessments are simply wrong. Those hits hurt and the fact they did not cause a complete collapse should not be construed to mean they did not cause serious flooding. The ship was dragged along the side of a mountain and additional damage left assessment speculative.
The Germans sped up the sinking of a sinking ship and they succeeded in preventing a feared boarding although I have not heard any Brit account say they were intending to board I understand the logic behind the scuttling for pride and that great ship deserved to go down proud.
That episode ranks the Bismarck as the greatest warship of the 20th century! Some will argue that but they are fools. Count the books, the many TV series and even the star of a movie :rock:

Wulfmann

[Type XXIII]

The real credit, ultimately, should go to the Swordfish which messed up her steering. After that had happened, I think the Bismarck was doomed, whichever way it was to go down.

Granted, after the steering was damaged by the improbable torpedo hit, the Bismarck was most likely going down sooner or later.

Still, the Bismarck would have dealt out alot more punishment on its way down, had it not been for the 8" shells of the HMS Dorsetshire that destoyed the forward control post, thus effectly preventing the forward main battery from firing.

What I'm trying to say is that it was not only luck from the British side that sunk the Bismarck, it was also suboptimal armor layout.

[joea]

I´ve never seen the bismarck yet in a patrol :roll:

My bigger prey in a patrol was in Silent hunter 1

I sunk the yamato, but it takes 12 torpedoes.

You want to sink the Bismarck in your U-boat?? :88)

[joea]

The Bismarck was sinking when the Germans scuttled the ship. They did so not to have bragging rights. He was shot up to the point of being defenseless and they feared the indignation of being boarded.
The ship would have sunk without the scuttling but they hurried it up.
I saw Cameron’s nice show and he did some fine photography and a great shot of the oh so jammed rudder, what doomed the ship anyway one looks at it.
But, he is ignorant of what torpedo damage is and his assessments are simply wrong. Those hits hurt and the fact they did not cause a complete collapse should not be construed to mean they did not cause serious flooding. The ship was dragged along the side of a mountain and additional damage left assessment speculative.
The Germans sped up the sinking of a sinking ship and they succeeded in preventing a feared boarding although I have not heard any Brit account say they were intending to board I understand the logic behind the scuttling for pride and that great ship deserved to go down proud.
That episode ranks the Bismarck as the greatest warship of the 20th century! Some will argue that but they are fools. Count the books, the many TV series and even the star of a movie :rock:

Wulfmann

Yes agree with this and the others that it doesn't matter. Bismarck was irreparably damaged. Even if peace was declared and she was towed back to Germany. Greatest of the 20th century? Perhaps, why must there be one "greatest" anyway? Poor ol' Tirpitz forgotten and lonely up in Norway.

[Highbury]

That episode ranks the Bismarck as the greatest warship of the 20th century! Some will argue that but they are fools. Count the books, the many TV series and even the star of a movie :rock:

Well then count me a fool......

Lets see, 1 voyage... battered to hell then scuttled (which is still a British victory). Then all the notoriety you speak of is focused either on it being sunk first time out, or the irrelevant controversy of how it was sunk. The one true "claim-to-fame" was some decidedly good gunnery while engaging HMS Hood (although magazine penetration takes luck, even if you are trying for it.) One of the most famous, certainly.. the greatest... um... no.

[Wulfmann]

H, Hood was the most famous ship up to May 24 1941. The last documentary done on her was titled "Sunk by the Bismarck" Sums up the argument!!!

The Bismarck in a sense went behind enemy lines and fought the only center ring championship fight of WWII..

It was not the Dorsetshire that knocked out the main gunnery control position on Bismarck. Dory joined the fight after it started. It was HMS Norfolk that hit Bismarck killing Albrecht Schneider credited with destroying HMS Hood and Norfolk also in Dec 1943 knocked out Scharnhorst's main radar as well. Lightning striking twice but good crews have a way of making things look lucky.

Tirpitz, the Lonely Queen of the North, was her title.
She did much to help tie down allied units and part of that was the Bismarck perception fear.
A large carrier and 2 modern battleships were always on hand for the in case break out.
Likewise the allies tied down German units in Norway with the trumped up invasion never intended to take place

But, Bismarck was not a she but a he as her captain insisted and most choose to honor that fine man's request.

Wulfmann

[Punisher_sa]

The real credit, ultimately, should go to the Swordfish which messed up her steering. After that had happened, I think the Bismarck was doomed, whichever way it was to go down.

Granted, after the steering was damaged by the improbable torpedo hit, the Bismarck was most likely going down sooner or later.

Still, the Bismarck would have dealt out alot more punishment on its way down, had it not been for the 8" shells of the HMS Dorsetshire that destoyed the forward control post, thus effectly preventing the forward main battery from firing.

What I'm trying to say is that it was not only luck from the British side that sunk the Bismarck, it was also suboptimal armor layout.


I was nowhere near that ship i promise i was at home fitting some cool new shoes i stole from some russian soldier, that is my story and i am sticking to that till the day i die

[Ducimus]

http://www.battleshipbismarck.com/bismarckclass/gallery/10_denmark_strait.asp#


http://www.3dhistory.de/html/hauptframe/jc/bismarck_dive1_3.htm


http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/wreck/bismarck_wreck_1.html
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/wreck/bismarck_wreck_2.html
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/wreck/bismarck_wreck_3.html
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/wreck/bismarck_wreck_4.html
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/wreck/bismarck_wreck_5.html

[Abraham]

I voted for scuttled by her own crew, because she was in a hopeless tactical position and heavely damaged.

No chance she was the best battleship of WWII, arguably the best looking, but the Iowa would have made splinters of her...

[Sailor Steve]

I voted for British Home Fleet, because torpedoes or not, scuttling or not, at that point the ship was being abandoned, and would have sunk anyway sooner or later. Also, as someone else pointed out, even if the ship could have been towed home there is no way it could have been repaired.

[Wulfmann]

I never said she was the best battleship and I agree Iowa class was the best and would have likely beaten the bigger Yamato in a straight fight.
But, there was only one straight fight and Bismarck won that.
Bismarck is the greatest warship by the situation that was created beyond his control. Count all the books, articles, TV series and documentaries as well as a movie.
It is a matter of timing and that was the end of the big gun era. By the time Iowa hit the seas the day of the battleship was gone.

Bismarck earned that title by deeds both in victory and defeat not by analysis of comparative equipment rating.

Wulfmann

[Sailor Steve]

Bismarck earned that title by deeds both in victory and defeat not by analysis of comparative equipment rating.

Wulfmann
Well said.

Bismarck and Hood: like Achilles and Hector, the stuff of legends.

[rudewarrior]

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this, but I thought I read (or saw somewhere in a documentary) that they found gaping holes in the ship from explosions. IIRC they said that the holes appeared to be from internal explosions, like scuttling charges, versus external explosions, like torpedo hits. I think they also said that the holes were in the right place for the scuttling charges to be doing the damage. For this reason I voted for the scuttling charges, strictly for the definition of "sinking," but as to its actual destruction: of course the British. Sure it wasn't sunk yet, but you can be damn sure it was no longer an effective weapons platform.

Six of one = 1/2 doz. of the other.

Interestingly enough, I saw another documentary about the dreadnought/battleship class. The most interesting thing that I took away from it was that some study was done at some naval academy somewhere (sorry to drag everyone down with specifics) :know: and they found that the battleship was one of the worst military investments ever made. :o Why? Because of all the naval ships ever commissioned, this class of ship has had the least amount of use of all naval ships ever made. Sure they made a psychological impact, especially when it came to the grandeur of the British Royal Navy, but as far as actual military applications, especially ship v. ship, Jutland and Leyte maybe. They really didn't have too much use except to shoot those big guns in ground support ops.

[kenijaru]

who sunk the bismark? Hitler did, Göering did, Admiral Lujthens did, her own crew and the brit sailors.
Hitler: he sent the ship in a suicidal mision alone, even the most powerfull battleship (the Bismarck untill the Yamato was finished) could not resist the attacks of all brit home fleet. also, her strengh was the range of her guns, staying far away landing 380mm shells in the enemy.
Göering: the Luftwaffe could have protected the Bismarck, at least a bit, both Lujthens and Lindemann died waiting for the luftwaffe to apear and save the day.
Adml Lujthens: he ordered KsZ Lindemann not to return to port, so the ship went into the atlantic after sinking the HMS Hood and severely dmging the HMS Prince of Wales. so, they where hunted by all the home fleet.
the brit sailors: brave man, fighting for theyr country, the distroyed rudder was a lucky shot and made the Bismarck an almost static artillery base so, they caused the sinking.
her crew: they scuttled the ship.

so, the ship was doomed by the actions of both the brit navy and the Reich. you cant say "he sunk the ship" because the ship sunk as the combination of all those factors.
it depends on how you see the fact.
ps: the way i see it, the crew scuttled the ship.

[joea]

Actually the "shot on the rudder" was by British Swordfish (stringbag) pilots, still RN Fleet Air Arm but not sailors. :know: The sailors were on POW, Vian's DDs, the cruisers who shadowed her and Rodney and KGV.

[kenijaru]

Actually the "shot on the rudder" was by British Swordfish (stringbag) pilots, still RN Fleet Air Arm but not sailors. :know: The sailors were on POW, Vian's DDs, the cruisers who shadowed her and Rodney and KGV.

u get what i mean >_<

[joea]

Yes sorry. :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I'm intrigued by the descriptions of "gaping holes". Scuttling charges would be placed at the bottom of the ship, or at least below the waterline. Likewise, torpedoes are obviously going to hit below the waterline. Since drawings made from the photographs show the ship sitting upright, with the silt and mud up around the waterline, it would seem to me the holes observed would have to be ABOVE the waterline.

This leads me to believe that in spite of his experience Mr. Cameron must be something less than an expert, especially where his opinions are involved. I would love to see clear evidence involving the holes and hear the judgement of trained naval experts on exactly what those holes represent.