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Kapitan
01-15-06, 06:09 PM
any out there if so ISBN please

thankyou peoples

bradclark1
01-15-06, 08:37 PM
Whats the deal with the national defense medal?

sonar732
01-15-06, 10:34 PM
Good question since it's sitting next to a Soviet sub and he's from England... :hmm:

Kapitan
01-16-06, 03:30 AM
:D seawolves happend got rated up and awarded lol they dont do russian medals :x :cry:

Abraham
01-16-06, 03:34 AM
any out there if so ISBN please

thankyou peoples
I saw capitals!

Kapitan
01-16-06, 03:38 AM
capitals?..................

Abraham
01-16-06, 03:46 AM
Capitals!
... ISBN ...
:D

Kapitan
01-16-06, 03:47 AM
Oh, you mean spelling and punctuation.

Takeda Shingen
01-16-06, 07:45 AM
Looks like somebody got a shift key for Christmas.

Oberon
01-16-06, 07:46 AM
Looks like somebody got a shift key for Christmas.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Konovalov
01-16-06, 07:50 AM
Looks like somebody got a shift key for Christmas.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Bill Nichols
01-16-06, 07:54 AM
To answer Kapitan's question, try Soviet Naval Tactics by Milan Vego (ISBN 0870216759), Chapter 13, "Strikes by Multipurpose Submarines"

Kapitan
01-16-06, 07:55 AM
Lol, and yeah i did, got new keyboard.

Thanks bill for your impot. :up:

Abraham
01-16-06, 10:05 AM
Oh, you mean spelling and punctuation.
andLol, and yeah i did, got new keyboard.
Thanks bill for your impot.

Bill & I

:D

bradclark1
01-16-06, 10:08 AM
To answer Kapitan's question, try Soviet Naval Tactics by Milan Vego (ISBN 0870216759), Chapter 13, "Strikes by Multipurpose Submarines"

Not cheap: $47.45

bradclark1
01-16-06, 10:12 AM
:D seawolves happend got rated up and awarded lol they dont do russian medals :x :cry:
Call me a sentimental fool but I don't approve at all of their use for a game and using it as you do. Someone might make a mistake and think you actually earned the right to wear it. Oh well. Free world.

John Channing
01-16-06, 07:00 PM
Call me a sentimental fool...

OK... you're a sentimental fool!

Couldn't resist.

JCC

bradclark1
01-16-06, 07:16 PM
Call me a sentimental fool...

OK... you're a sentimental fool!

Couldn't resist.

JCC

:)

Kapitan
01-17-06, 02:46 AM
Twas good :D , only did it to try test some thing and it works, and now my picture has failed whoopie :nope:

Abraham
01-17-06, 02:56 AM
Twas good :D , only did it to try test some thing and it works, and now my picture has failed whoopie :nope:
This is your picture line:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/Alpha.jpg[/img]
I see [/img] at the end but not at the beginning, like:
[img]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/Alpha.jpg
whoopie :up:

Kapitan
01-17-06, 04:55 AM
ahhh cheers that jelly fish must have got into my system more than i thought :hmm:

Abraham
01-17-06, 05:02 AM
Twas good :D , only did it to try test some thing and it works, and now my picture has failed whoopie :nope:
This is your picture line:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/Alpha.jpg[/img]
I see [/img] at the end but not at the beginning, like:
[img]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/Alpha.jpg
whoopie :up:
Now I see at the beginning and at the end of your picture line, like:
[img]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/Alpha.jpg[img] instead of:
[img]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/Alpha.jpg

Take one of my Alpha's, Kapitain, I got two now!
:D

Kapitan
01-17-06, 05:11 AM
lol i got one too

Bellman
01-17-06, 11:33 PM
:rotfl: Kap:lol i got one too
I hope you've got two :oops: :o :huh:
:lol: You'l need 'em with that cracking girlfriend of yours. :yep: ;)
Maybies the fiendish jellyfish got to you ?
:rotfl: Kap:ahhh cheers that jelly fish must have got into my system more than i thought Hmmm

;) :-j :sunny:

Oberon
01-18-06, 03:05 AM
http://www.aloha.com/~lifeguards/sjellyfish_sign.jpg

Kapitan
01-18-06, 07:14 AM
hey oberon if your ever going to chatham let me know may be able to meet up :up:

Oberon
01-18-06, 07:51 AM
Will do, been meaning to bring the missus down some time to look at the Ocelot. She's never been inside a sub before :)
All a question of funds at the moment though :cry:

TLAM Strike
01-18-06, 12:44 PM
Isn't it "Conn Sonar"? :hmm:

Abraham
01-18-06, 04:28 PM
Isn't it "Conn Sonar"? :hmm:
Oh, you mean spelling and punctuation.
:D

Kapitan
01-24-06, 10:41 AM
woow eye gotted itted write

Linton
01-24-06, 04:14 PM
So is this discussion on tactics ever going to get going or is it going to turn into an english lesson?

Bill Nichols
01-24-06, 04:20 PM
So is this discussion on tactics ever going to get going or is it going to turn into an english lesson?

It's poor form to use the same word (going) three times in a single sentence.... :know:

Linton
01-24-06, 04:33 PM
Would you please supply a reference to back-up your accusation?I speke the kweens inglish!!It has bin a very longg daiy and i have bin gowin four sixteen howrs

Abraham
01-26-06, 01:17 AM
...It has bin a very longg daiy and i have bin gowin four sixteen howrsThis language style form is called "pleonasm".
:D

Sailor Steve
01-26-06, 01:59 PM
So is this discussion on tactics ever going to get going or is it going to turn into an english lesson?

It's poor form to use the same word (going) three times in a single sentence.... :know:
Going...going...going...gone!

Linton
01-28-06, 07:38 PM
So is it???

Kapitan
03-05-06, 08:39 AM
tactic books blind mans bluff ive been refferd to is it any good?

Bill Nichols
03-05-06, 09:22 AM
tactic books blind mans bluff ive been refferd to is it any good?

Good book but not about tactics.

Linton
03-05-06, 04:19 PM
I would start with Submarine Command by Ben Bryant.I believe it was required reading on the perisher course in the 1970s.I would also read a lot of the wartime (ww2) books by people such as Mars,Young etc.The basic techniques are always the same.Technology just gives you a better chance of hitting something and avoiding the counter -attack.This only really sunk (!) in with me when I went on three submarines from different eras and realised that apart from the propulsion system that they are not really different.It is the captain and luck that make the difference.I once asked an air-traffic controller at a major UK airport if they had a tactics manual.His reply was no-he just made it up on the day with the benefit of his experience.Submarine combat is the same
You will not find much on Nato tactics but you can try Milan Vego's book on Soviet Naval Tactics.Finally just get all the regular forum posters to pm you with their favourite tactic and you are probably onto a winner and pm me the final result!! :arrgh!:

kschang
03-06-06, 02:03 PM
Sub combat really haven't changed much. Subs go faster, dive deeper, sonars are better, and weapons are a wee bit smarter, but that's about it. Fundamentals like surprise, end-run, ambush, and keep a reserve for snapshot stuff are still around. Sprint-and-drift is very similar to land force's overwatch/leapfrong advance (in a way). The fundamentals don't change much.

SeaQueen
03-11-06, 07:55 PM
Good book but not about tactics.

It's hard to find unclassified literature about sub tactics specifically. They're either really abstract and fundamental, like Koopman's Search and Screening from which you could make educated guesses about actual sub tactics if you could do the math, or else they're so vague as to not really tell you what was actually done. I suspect a lot of people prefer it that way too.

Linton
03-12-06, 05:32 AM
Koopman's Searching and screening.I am not familiar with this one ,can you give me some details?

SeaQueen
03-13-06, 10:52 PM
Koopman's Searching and screening.I am not familiar with this one ,can you give me some details?

Koopman was a mathematician during WWII. He invented a field of mathematics called search theory. It's basically the science of figuring out the best way to look for stuff. The most famous application of his work was figuring out how to plan the best possible airplane barrier searches in the Bay of Biscay. That lead to incredible casualties among U-Boats. His work had application beyond just ASW, though. It was also important for everything from search and rescue, to finding missing children, to crime scene investigations. Most every search manual ultimately references him. If you ask me, Koopman is one of the unsung scientist-heros fo WWII, his work was every bit as important as breaking the enigma code, and found far wider application.

Most of ASW is basically just searching so everything is based on his ideas. It's really complicated, though. If you're not up to evaluating an elliptic intergral, you probably shouldn't bother with this book. It won't say, "to find a submarine, do this..." but it will give you to tools to figure out what the best tactics might be, and where to begin experimenting.

Linton
03-14-06, 07:45 AM
I found it on abebooks at a starting price of $150!!Does anybody know if it is available in cyberspace or can photocopy or scan a copy for me?

Bill Nichols
03-14-06, 08:17 AM
The theory of optimal search was first developed by B.O. Koopman, Search and Screening. A simplified and very accessible text The Theory of Search by Jack Frost is available in Microsoft Word format from Martin Colwell's SAR library. That work explains primarily maritime search planning.

Frost's articles (and many other search-related items) are available at:

http://www.sarinfo.bc.ca/Library/Planning/LibPlanning.html

Enjoy!

:know:

Linton
03-14-06, 05:47 PM
Thank you Bill.

Abraham
03-15-06, 02:45 AM
I would start with Submarine Command by Ben Bryant.I believe it was required reading on the perisher course in the 1970s.I would also read a lot of the wartime (ww2) books by people such as Mars,Young etc....

Do you have some more info about these books, Cornwallis? I mean prices, availability....?

Linton
03-15-06, 04:34 AM
Abraham I get most of mine from abebooks.com.I will produce a list of reading for you in the next couple of days.

Driftwood
03-31-06, 05:59 PM
I would start with Submarine Command by Ben Bryant.I believe it was required reading on the perisher course in the 1970s.I would also read a lot of the wartime (ww2) books by people such as Mars,Young etc.The basic techniques are always the same.Technology just gives you a better chance of hitting something and avoiding the counter -attack.This only really sunk (!) in with me when I went on three submarines from different eras and realised that apart from the propulsion system that they are not really different.It is the captain and luck that make the difference.I once asked an air-traffic controller at a major UK airport if they had a tactics manual.His reply was no-he just made it up on the day with the benefit of his experience.Submarine combat is the same
You will not find much on Nato tactics but you can try Milan Vego's book on Soviet Naval Tactics.Finally just get all the regular forum posters to pm you with their favourite tactic and you are probably onto a winner and pm me the final result!! :arrgh!:

Just ordered your recommendation, and the title is actually Submarine Commander by Ben Bryant. I would also recommend Thunder Below by Admiral Eugene Fluckey. He was a pioneer in changing US WWII submarine combat tactics although some of them (surface approaches) are not really applicable now. The thing that I really see lacking in these historical accounts are sub vs. sub tactics.

Driftwood
03-31-06, 06:02 PM
I would start with Submarine Command by Ben Bryant.I believe it was required reading on the perisher course in the 1970s.I would also read a lot of the wartime (ww2) books by people such as Mars,Young etc....

Do you have some more info about these books, Cornwallis? I mean prices, availability....?

www.Amazon.com :up:

Kapitan
04-09-06, 02:03 AM
Thanks guys.

Linton
04-09-06, 04:34 AM
Driftwood ,how many submarines do you think have been sunk by another submarine when both were submerged? ONE, right at the end of WW2 a german u-boat that was being very noisy and obvious was dispatched by an RN submarine.the technology was just not there during most of the war to do the job.

Driftwood
04-09-06, 06:56 AM
Driftwood ,how many submarines do you think have been sunk by another submarine when both were submerged? ONE, right at the end of WW2 a german u-boat that was being very noisy and obvious was dispatched by an RN submarine.the technology was just not there during most of the war to do the job.

I completely agree. I was merely making the observation that historical accounts that discuss tactics, albeit very good, do not address what modern submarine tactics are because they didn't have the technology during the 1st and 2nd WW's. It's a shame (but understandable) that there doesn't seem to be anything out there for us virtual sub skippers to use as a tactical reference. Of course there are the manuals developed by the various virtual fleets which are great resources but nothing "official"......at least for public consumption.
Might be nice to have the reading lists for the PCO and Perisher courses.

P.S. I'm really enjoying Admiral Bryants book Submarine Commander! Nice getting a British perspective of WWII submarine operations. :up: :lurk:

Kapitan
04-09-06, 07:05 AM
I know a guy who was an officer on a british submarine (both diesel and nuclear left the service in 1996) he will not even talk to me about the subject nor hint at it in anyway, every time i talk to him he has a nack of taking it off on a tangent.

Bill Nichols
04-09-06, 08:59 AM
I know a guy who was an officer on a british submarine (both diesel and nuclear left the service in 1996) he will not even talk to me about the subject nor hint at it in anyway, every time i talk to him he has a nack of taking it off on a tangent.

I know people who are like that naturally . . . . :-j


BTW, love that 'Captain Spam' avatar! :rotfl:

Kapitan
04-09-06, 09:16 AM
Well expected, and thanks i like it too.

Driftwood
04-23-06, 03:56 PM
Here's two more for the list. "Wahoo" (which I've just finished) and "Clear the Bridge" (about half way through) both by RADM Richard O'Kane. Excellent primers (IMHO) on WWII fleet boat tactics. A very interesting part about the first book (Wahoo) was seeing the difference between how a peace time sub skipper and the newer, younger war time skippers conned their boats. I highly recommend these to anyone interested in US submarine exploits during WWII. :up: If you can I suggest reading Wahoo first as that's where O'Kane begins his own story as XO of the Wahoo, moving on to take command of the Tang in "Clear the Bridge."

Abraham
04-27-06, 03:34 AM
@ Driftwood:
You're right, both are top notch books that give a lot of info on sub tactics, besides being good reading.

Linton
04-28-06, 04:30 AM
I am currently reading"The Royal Navy and Anti-submarine Warfare1917-49" by Malcolm Llewellyn-Jones.It is expensive £65!,so i would suggest getting it out of the library.

Abraham
04-28-06, 04:55 AM
I am currently reading"The Royal Navy and Anti-submarine Warfare1917-49" by Malcolm Llewellyn-Jones.It is expensive £65!,so i would suggest getting it out of the library.
Is it worthwhile, Chief? Does it give some solid info?

Linton
04-28-06, 08:07 AM
abraham,i am reading it slowly,you have to when you only get 223 pages for £65 but it is pretty good so far.publisher is routledge and isbn0415385326.The current chapter i am reading has some good stuff about ww2 asdic procedures.The author works for the naval historical brasnch of the MOD.

Linton
04-28-06, 03:45 PM
The catologue has it as an e-book but not the website.I will pm you when i finish it.I get my public library to order a lot of stuff for me :D

Abraham
05-25-06, 09:54 PM
abraham,i am reading it slowly,you have to when you only get 223 pages for £65 but it is pretty good so far.publisher is routledge and isbn0415385326.The current chapter i am reading has some good stuff about ww2 asdic procedures.The author works for the naval historical brasnch of the MOD.
Roger!

Linton
05-29-06, 03:42 AM
Abraham,I am about half way through.I am going to contact the author to try and get some more info on search patterns off him.I will let you know how i get on.

bradclark1
05-29-06, 09:22 AM
Woow. You can buy a new copy for $115.00 or a used copy for $107.00 on Ebay. Must be a good book.

Linton
06-20-06, 10:27 AM
I finally finished reading it over the weekend.A good book based on the author's phd thesis,but I would suggest that you get your local library to order it,especially given the price.It lacks diagrams but has some interesting specifics on search patterns etc.
I have now moved onto "Periscope View" by Shrimp Simpson

Kapitan
07-27-06, 04:16 PM
Found a few at libray so far in the last few weeks but only on computer have to order them :damn: