2 escorts have me at 170m below. Will it ever end?

[The Avon Lady]

It's 3/43 in my current patrol. I tried attacking a convoy but was spotted by a destroyer and corvette before I could line up a shot.

I immediately crash dove and began taking evasive manouvers to shake them off my tail. That started literally 5 and a half hours ago. Yes, I'm talking real time! :damn:

The convoy must be dozens of km's to the SE by now. The 2 escorts are circling above me, pinging when they can. They're out of depth charges. :doh:

I dove to 170m+, in silent running, speed 1kt (tried idling the engine, too) but they just circling around up above like there's no tomorrow.

Any way I can convince these fellas to go back to their convoy? :oops:

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

It's 3/43 in my current patrol. I tried attacking a convoy but was spotted by a destroyer and corvette before I could line up a shot.

I immediately crash dove and began taking evasive manouvers to shake them off my tail. That started literally 5 and a half hours ago. Yes, I'm talking real time! :damn:

The convoy must be dozens of km's to the SE by now. The 2 escorts are circling above me, pinging when they can. They're out of depth charges. :doh:

I dove to 170m+, in silent running, speed 1kt (tried idling the engine, too) but they just circling around up above like there's no tomorrow.

Any way I can convince these fellas to go back to their convoy? :oops:

Book em Danno!!

A fish in the midsection should discourage your so called hunters, if you can get a shot off. Failing that, they aren't gonna follow you all the way home so if they've used up all their DC's maybe just plot a course and stick with it hoping they get fed up and back off. :hmm:

Let us know how it goes. Go get em Avon!

[wetwarev7]

Wait till night time and lose 'em in the dark?

If it was just a couple of corvettes, I'd say take em out with the deck gun, but I don't know about doing that with a destroyer....

[greyrider]

hi avon lady,
5.5 hrs in real time evading two dd's and not dying, thats very good defense, In the united states, thats at least a bronze star award. But you asked for advise on making them go away now.
You said they were out of depth charges, but keep tracking you.
My suggestion is if your sure they are out of dc's, then go on the offense now, go up to 20 meters, below ramming depth, and plan an attack, maybe with a spread shot, once your plan is set, attack by going up to PD, or attack with hydrophones. You may shoot and miss, but i think the dd's might understand that your up and fighting, and that you could hurt them, and they might take off, or give you some distance, and you could slip away then.
If you dont do something, maybe they will track and hold your position until reinforcements come. ( dd's with full dc loadouts).
Good luck avon lady :up:

[SmokinTep]

That's why I wish there was a mod where you could let out some oil, maybe shoot out some debris. That would be neat to see if they would buy it.

[Ducimus]

The 2 escorts are circling above me, pinging when they can. They're out of depth charges. :doh:




You mean they can acutally run out?! As someone else said, if your sure they're out, go on the offensive. Espiecailly if they wont go away.

You can't stay down there forever.

[Oberon]

Probably best to shut them up and get the hell out of dodge before they call up some friends.

[GT182]

AVL, get the DD_s_Detection_13a_Stage mod or the Sensors mod. That will help you out and tone their hydrophones down.

[The Avon Lady]

AVL, get the DD_s_Detection_13a_Stage mod or the Sensors mod. That will help you out and tone their hydrophones down.
I just installed Stiebler's Radar Detection Fix. I take it these mods clash with each other?

Also, my question isn't so much about detection. It's about escort's abandoning their guardposts. Is there game logic that allows for escorts to permanently break away from their convoy positions or is there some sort of pursuit distance limit? That is the essential question.

[Marhkimov]

Also, my question isn't so much about detection. It's about escort's abandoning their guardposts. Is there game logic that allows for escorts to permanently break away from their convoy positions or is there some sort of pursuit distance limit? That is the essential question.
This is due to SH3Cmdr. It has randomized one of the values in Sim.cfg


However, manually changing it is simple to do.

Navigate to "SH3 Commander\Cfg\" and open this config file with notepad: Miscellaneous.cfg

Then all you have to do is change the numerical values for these:
LostContactTimeLower=15
LostContactTimeUpper=45



For instance, these are my values:
LostContactTimeLower=5
LostContactTimeUpper=7

What this says is that the destroyers will randomly spend about 5 to 7 minutes looking for me. Then they will rejoin the rest of the convoy.

You can use any values you like. :up:

[The Avon Lady]

I don't think that explains my case.

Those values seem to set how long a warship will search. They know where I am. They are not searching or, if they are, they're finding me after a short amount of time.

Make them stop!! :oops:

[Marhkimov]

Hmm... 1943, eh?

What kind of destroyers are they? DE? DD? Which corvette?

[The Avon Lady]

Hmm... 1943, eh?
What kind of destroyers are they? DE? DD? Which corvette?
Well, not sure who's up above there now but I was spotted by a Hunt III destroyer and I believe a flower corvette.

I dind't know there were different corvette types in the game? :hmm:

[Marhkimov]

I dind't know there were different corvette types in the game? :hmm:
There's really only two...

NTRW_ = trawler

NCO_Flower = flower corvette

[The Avon Lady]

I would never give a trawler the honor of being called a corvette. :nope:

[Marhkimov]

Message incoming from BDU:


With intel recovered from captured British ships, their technology indicates that unless you go deeper than 300m, you will be easily spotted by hydrophones and sonar.

Since going deeper than 300m is obviously out of the question, our only suggestion would be to attempt to put some lateral distance between yourself and the enemy, while climbing to a more shallow depth. Note about their sensors: they can efficiently track targets long and deep, but they have trouble with targets at long and shallow....

Getting into shallow depth is a risky operation, but if you have no other choice, it would be your best bet for survival.

Good luck!
BDU out.

[Redwine]

AVL, get the DD_s_Detection_13a_Stage mod or the Sensors mod. That will help you out and tone their hydrophones down.
I just installed Stiebler's Radar Detection Fix. I take it these mods clash with each other?

Also, my question isn't so much about detection. It's about escort's abandoning their guardposts. Is there game logic that allows for escorts to permanently break away from their convoy positions or is there some sort of pursuit distance limit? That is the essential question.

Hi Lady ... :up:

I am user of Stiebler's Radar Detection Fix too, i made my files over it if i am not wrong.

Any way, Stiebler's Radar Detection Fix changes only the Sensors.dat file, the only thing i change in this files is the effective surface of decoys.

If you use my file, you will have the Radar detection fix working, if you decide to maintin your Sensors.dat files, the only thing you will lose is the more effective decoys.

Downloada the las version 13b here....

http://subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47022

http://rapidshare.de/files/10621953/DD_s_Detection_13b_Stage.zip.html

This set of files is not a mod yet, are only my set of personal files.

We start up a log topic for discover how the DDs and DEs detection works, lot of people there add your effort to enlarge the know about it.

http://subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45370&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=pinpoint+drops

Some people was there due to Dummy DDs, as CB in example, i was there due to super uber DDs like as you.

Finally i obtain a good average solution, no more too dummy DDs and no more too uber DDs.

All DDs and DEs are now more similar along all the war, all they are hard but not dummy or uber. Very good for gameplay, it makes the gameplay more interesting, not toeasy at early times, and not imposible to play at later times.

The files will give you an excellent protection against pasive hydrophones.

Silent running is now excellent, anyway, you still vulnerable to active sonar, if you are pinged, you are in troubles.

With these settings, you are able to maintain high speeds 5 and more only at far ranges, when they are medium ranges you are enforced to use 4 knots, and when they are near you are enforced to use slow and silent running to be undetected by pasive hydrophones.

You are enforced to maneuver to adquiere a good attack position early, if not you will be discovered.

You are enforced to maintain them far away, to be far of active sonars, if you are detected, you will be enforced to dive and evade.

Use silent running to evade, attempt to maintain the red lines in the map at your back, maneuver to maintain them always at your back to run away from them.

Has Marhkimov mentioned, Cb discovered DDs and DEs has not the same behaviour, plus the behaviour is not the same in single mission than in the campaigns.

What changes ?

More effective decoys.
Less effective depth charges.
Changes in sensors beams angles and minimun ranges.
Some changes in AI radar capability.

I need to try them more in campaigns, may be you can try and comment.

But be sure, you will have very hard and dangerous DDs and DEs, but no more uber ......... your silent running and your decoys will give you a good chance to scape even at later war times.

Best regards, Red.

:up: :up:

PD :

As Marhkimov wrote above, reducing the lost contact time, into Sim.cfg will help you to shake them more easy, i use 15 min to not losse too much game interest.

CB discovered, reducing this value, the DEs and DDs return to escort the convoy after this time over, a good and real behaviour.

Enlarging this time, they will hunt on you a little bit more hard.

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=15 ;[min]

[GT182]

I believe Stiebler's Radar Detection Fix is for your Uboat or aircraft, and not the destroyers. But I could be wrong as I haven't used that one yet.

Key word being radar. That would mean searching for aircraft or aircraft searching for you. ;)

Sonar is what they be using to look for you.. AKA sensors.

[The Avon Lady]

Message incoming from BDU:


With intel recovered from captured British ships, their technology indicates that unless you go deeper than 300m, you will be easily spotted by hydrophones and sonar.

Since going deeper than 300m is obviously out of the question, our only suggestion would be to attempt to put some lateral distance between yourself and the enemy, while climbing to a more shallow depth. Note about their sensors: they can efficiently track targets long and deep, but they have trouble with targets at long and shallow....

Getting into shallow depth is a risky operation, but if you have no other choice, it would be your best bet for survival.

Good luck!
BDU out.
Hey! Yiu're not BdU! Imposter! :hulk:

I have no problem going shallow, as these 2 yokles are out of DCs.

My question still remains? Will they attempt to stick to me like glue no matter how far away the convoy gets? Is there no definition for such a limit in the game files?

[The Avon Lady]

I believe Stiebler's Radar Detection Fix is for your Uboat or aircraft, and not the destroyers. But I could be wrong as I haven't used that one yet.

Key word being radar. That would mean searching for aircraft or aircraft searching for you. ;)
Stiebler's mod changed the Sensors.dat file? Is that file affected by the mod you mentioned?

[Marhkimov]

Hey! Yiu're not BdU! Imposter! :hulk:
You're right... I am actually the Fairy God Mother whose job it is to protect little German U-boats from impending destruction. ;)


My question still remains? Will they attempt to stick to me like glue no matter how far away the convoy gets? Is there no definition for such a limit in the game files?
As long as they have pinpointed you in their sights, they will stick to you FOREVER... FOREVER..... FOREVER..........

Your only choice is to lose them. So like I said.... Good luck! :D :up:

[Redwine]

I believe Stiebler's Radar Detection Fix is for your Uboat or aircraft, and not the destroyers. But I could be wrong as I haven't used that one yet.

Key word being radar. That would mean searching for aircraft or aircraft searching for you. ;)
Stiebler's mod changed the Sensors.dat file? Is that file affected by the mod you mentioned?

That mod modify the submarine radar emission detection only. (Radar Warning)
Yes it mod the Sensors.dat file only.
It is not related with the AI units.

[The Avon Lady]

Hey! Yiu're not BdU! Imposter! :hulk:
You're right... I am actually the Fairy God Mother whose job it is to protect little German U-boats from impending destruction.
Now I can tell my crew that I knew you weren't make-believe all along!

[GT182]

I believe so. I have a Sensors mod that works I can send you if you'd like. it's not in any downloads. ;) PM me for my email addy if you'd like to try it.

But the DDs seem to hang around a bit too long for my liking. LOL I've changed the cfg as Markimov suggested.

[Redwine]

I don't think that explains my case.

Those values seem to set how long a warship will search. They know where I am. They are not searching or, if they are, they're finding me after a short amount of time.

Make them stop!! :oops:

That time is the time they will still searching for you after the last loss of contact.

After your "sthealt meter" become green and still green with no changes, they will be listen for you that time, 15 min, 5 min, 7 min that you have in that setting.

If you do not reach that time with your minisub green constantly...... they will still hunting for you for ever.

You need to pass that time with the minisub in green contant.

[The Avon Lady]

I think I'll have no choice but to try and torpedo them. But they're very good at hugging their prey within less than the minimum distance needed for torpedoes to arm. :dead:

Tomorrow.

[Redwine]

WARNING :

Be sue to remove all "Copy of XXXXX" files created by MiniTweaker or the Stielber's Radar Warning Fix from the working folder.

Remove them, and locate them into another folder.

If you do not remove them, some times the game do not take the new files and still taking the "Copy of XXXX", believe it or not......

[The Avon Lady]

WARNING :

Be sue to remove all "Copy of XXXXX" files created by MiniTweaker or the Stielber's Radar Warning Fix from the working folder.

Remove them, and locate them into another folder.

If you do not remove them, some times the game do not take the new files and still taking the "Copy of XXXX", believe it or not......
How can that be? :-?

That does not compute. :nope:

[Marhkimov]

How can that be? :-?

That does not compute. :nope:
That's what I thought, but apparently, it's true....

[Redwine]

WARNING :

Be sue to remove all "Copy of XXXXX" files created by MiniTweaker or the Stielber's Radar Warning Fix from the working folder.

Remove them, and locate them into another folder.

If you do not remove them, some times the game do not take the new files and still taking the "Copy of XXXX", believe it or not......
How can that be? :-?

That does not compute. :nope:

I understand you...... :D

We squize our brain with that when worked on the DDs pinpoint attack topic.

When that was discovered, all we was surprised...... it must not be.... :hmm: but it is. :88) :huh:

Marhkimov was there, in that topic....... as you can see, he remember that ..... lot of time losed due to this unveliable fact :damn:

Believe it or not, you dont lose anything, remove all backup "Copy of XXXX" or similar.

[The Avon Lady]

How can that be? :-?

That does not compute. :nope:
That's what I thought, but apparently, it's true....
Prove it.

It's ridiculous.

Try reproducing this stunt with a brand new career.

[Marhkimov]

How can that be? :-?

That does not compute. :nope:
That's what I thought, but apparently, it's true....
Prove it.

It's ridiculous.

Try reproducing this stunt with a brand new career.
Wait... To clarify, what are we talking about? :hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

How can that be? :-?

That does not compute. :nope:
That's what I thought, but apparently, it's true....
Prove it.

It's ridiculous.

Try reproducing this stunt with a brand new career.
Wait... To clarify, what are we talking about? :hmm:
That if you have a file named "Copy of Sensor.dat" and delete file "Sensor.dat", SH3 will use the "Copy" file.

[Marhkimov]

Actually, that's not what we meant...


If for instance you have two files located in the library folder, "Copy of Sensor.dat" and "Sensor.dat"..... SH3 will automatically run the copy file...... Don't ask me why. SH3 is just foolish like that.

So it is rocommended that you remove the backup file (Copy of Sensor.dat) from the Library folder, either by deleting it or moving it to a seperate folder.

[Redwine]

That if you have a file named "Copy of Sensor.dat" and delete file "Sensor.dat", SH3 will use the "Copy" file.

Not.... when we say that ? may be if you have only the Copy of XXXX the sim will not works or some thing...... but if you have both, together, we experienced the game take the original file disregarding it name. :hmm: :hmm:

Even after computer reboot !!! :hmm: :damn: (if i dont remember bad)

No logical explanation, it must not be ....but it is, and make us to lose a lot of time in that job.

Why you think Marhkimov and me are lying ? :lol:

You dont lose anything being ware about it and putting the file away of the working folder. :up:

[The Avon Lady]

Actually, that's not what we meant...


If for instance you have two files located in the library folder, "Copy of Sensor.dat" and "Sensor.dat"..... SH3 will automatically run the copy file...... Don't ask me why. SH3 is just foolish like that.
OK. Same idea.

Did you test this with an absolutely new career or an existing career?
So it is rocommended that you remove the backup file (Copy of Sensor.dat) from the Library folder, either by deleting it or moving it to a seperate folder.
I did better. I ran Stiebler's EXE program, created a JSGME compatible version of the mod for RUb 1.45, restored the original file, deleted the backup copy and them used JSGME to install the changes.

[Redwine]

Did you test this with an absolutely new career or an existing career?

It happened into single missions, wich are not related to any saved files.

All we was sceptics about it, like you.

But we made very big changes in the files, and the game make non sense.

After remove the "Copy of XXXX" file, and restarting the game, whow ! a disaster..... game make sense of all changes.


Backing to your uber DDs/DEs problem, try the files y load up, they use the Radar Fix from Stiebge, try them initialy in the mission U-505 B , against 5 uber DEs.

If you can sucessful attack and sink the carrier, and scape from 5 uber DEs, i think so it is more than enought to lose time trying it into a campaign.

:up: :up:

[Marhkimov]

Did you test this with an absolutely new career or an existing career?
It is the same for single missions, existing careers, and new careers.

The backup copy files from the Library folder usually take presidence over the "true" file. Anyways Avon Lady, I see you've found your way around this issue.

:up:

[HEMISENT]

Avon, its true
I was hunted for 7+ hours(real time) by 3 DD's/early 1944/campaign during the whole pinpoint drop exercise doing testing. What happens is those empty DD's will continue to make runs and in that time the game will spawn another convoy/task force/single DD etc. The empty DD's will call for reinforcements and this will go on forever.
We learned to take all copies of changed files and physically place them elswhere for safekeeping.
Also, it seems that using RUB requires different changes than non-RUb gameplay and campaign gameplay differs from single missions.

If you have some spare time(a lot) you might want to read the whole thread. A whole lot of useful info was derived from all the testing and brain storming.

[Nightowl]

Try shooting a torpedo away from them, sometimes when it explodes away from them on the surface,(like maybe in the direction of the fleeting convoy) they will go to that area to check it out and you can then sneak away from them in the opposite direction. You have nothing to lose and it sometimes works for me. -Nightowl

[Sniper297]

I was a US Navy ASW tech in the '70s, and hunting nuke subs is more complicated because they can dive deeper and stay forever. ASW in WWII was simpler in one way - get a sub contact, stick a pin in the chart and draw a 100 mile radius circle around it. He HAS to come up somewhere within that circle in the next 48 hours. When he does, drive him under again, mark the chart and draw another circle - repeat until he runs out of amps. :arrgh!:

ASW ran thru a whole bunch of changes during WWII. At the beginning the Brits were so short of escorts they would send out anything that could carry a couple of depth charges and a Lewis gun, so the few escorts available for convoys had an SOP to attack, but quickly break off and return so as not to leave the convoy unguarded. That policy gradually changed as more escorts became available, and some escorts that sailed with a convoy were detailed to stay with the contact until it was sunk, while the rest went on with the convoy. ASW became more and more aggressive as resources became available, and when escort carriers like the USS Guadalcanal started coming off the slips in larger quantities, those not needed for actual escort were organized into hunter-killer groups whose only task was (like the name implies!) to find and destroy U-boats.

So the later war period this would be realistic, when more subkillers became available the whole philosophy changed from a defensive posture to an offensive extermination. If you can find a copy read "The Cruel Sea", an excellent encapsulation of ASW in WWII.

[JScones]

I'm not overly surprised that a "Copy of sensors.dat" file would be chosen over a "sensors.dat" file if both resided in the same folder.

It is not uncommon for games, and from other behaviour I know this includes SH3, to include dynamic file retrieval from folders. This allows, for instance, the ability to add extra .tga files to certain folders with the game finding them and picking them up without caring about the name, or even file extension.

In some implementations, I have seen this as a very simple "does the file extension look good, yep, ok, does the file contain this certain value, yep, good enough, this file will do". I'm not saying that's how SH3 does it, but with "Copy of..." coming before "sensors" alphabetically, if this approach, or something similar is modelled, it would logically find the first match, generally being "Copy of" (although, see below for caveat).

Alternatively, if the file retrieval is partly dynamic, it may be like "find a file that's like sensor.dat".

This could be tested in part by renaming the "Copy of sensors.dat" to "zzzsensors.dat". But, the result may still not provide anything - as depending on file system the *earliest* version of the file may still be the first found, ie "zzzsensors.dat".

I've done this myself in applications, so it is plausible. Whether it's relevant to SH3, I don't know. It's just a possible explanation...

[Venatore]

They are hugging your location for one reason, they are waiting for the buddies to arrive! GET OUT OF THERE!!!!!!! :huh:

[GOZO]

Hi Lady. I think thermal layers were modelled into SHIII? After playing SC for long time I learned the use of sound "bending" in water is very useful. As af few have pointed out, going more shallow and increasing distance may fix it since your sub can be in a "shadow". I have tried this before and it does work. Hanging around at great depth all the time makes it easier for the enemy to find you by "passive" senors. Of course when the go "active" and start pinging you rely on their accuracy in aiming the ASDIC-transmitter. Keeping a small area of your sub (preferrebly the stern) against the transmitter decreases his ability to recieve an echo strong enough to detect you.

Hope it helps. /Per :P

[kiwi_2005]

What i do in situations like this is go to silent running and then using the dial make speed to 1 or 2 knots cos silent running is only 3 knots and i find i still get detected weather its the radar pinging of my boat i dont know but setting the speed to 1-2 knts then upping the time frame i can get away - never go over 16x time compression though or your history.

[HundertzehnGustav]

I would never give a trawler the honor of being called a corvette. :nope: :D

ROGER THAT Mam :nope: ;)

[The Avon Lady]

What i do in situations like this is go to silent running and then using the dial make speed to 1 or 2 knots cos silent running is only 3 knots and i find i still get detected weather its the radar pinging of my boat i dont know but setting the speed to 1-2 knts then upping the time frame i can get away - never go over 16x time compression though or your history.
I have been trying to evade at 1kt. No go. :nope:

[GT182]

AVL try this as Markimov suggested:


Then all you have to do is change the numerical values for these:
LostContactTimeLower=15
LostContactTimeUpper=45


For instance, these are my values:
LostContactTimeLower=5
LostContactTimeUpper=7

I did it lastnight but only changed to 9 for lower and 20 for upper. Works so far but lower might be a bit better. After 20 minutes of some hair raizing DCs the Corvette chasing me finally sailed of to rejoin the convoy. Now waiting for 6 hours to let the crew calm down to surface and do repairs, and convoy to sail on so I can sink that T2 I left sitting dead in the water.

[Redwine]

Hi Lady. I think thermal layers were modelled into SHIII? After playing SC for long time I learned the use of sound "bending" in water is very useful. As af few have pointed out, going more shallow and increasing distance may fix it since your sub can be in a "shadow". I have tried this before and it does work. Hanging around at great depth all the time makes it easier for the enemy to find you by "passive" senors. Of course when the go "active" and start pinging you rely on their accuracy in aiming the ASDIC-transmitter. Keeping a small area of your sub (preferrebly the stern) against the transmitter decreases his ability to recieve an echo strong enough to detect you.

Hope it helps. /Per :P

Sadly...after too much look into the files, i need to finish thinking thermal layers are not modelled in SH3.

That was one of the reasons i change the sonnar beams angles into my settings, this modification "simulates" a certain kind of shadow zone when you go depth, a certain kind of thermal layer effect.


The other is because real beams are not simulated in the game, the game only have 2 kind of beams, one for pasive and one for active and no more, and the beams are exagerate wide.

If you look into the long topic of 31 pages you will find this, look the graphic posted by gouldjg :

Page 9 :

http://subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45370&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=pinpoint+drops&start=200

The beams was very narrow.

In the game, sensors has wide beams, in example pasive and active sensors has a contant detection angle from surface down to 90 degrees down.
Due to that they can detect you even when they are just passing over you, and they can detect you full turn maneuvers even if they are over you. I changed that.

In the game, they are able to detect you even at silent running, when they arte far.

That was not real, a sub sailing at silent running was near to undetectable.

Even in modern wars it is true for electric subs, which prove to be realy hard to detect at silent running even by more modern sensors than those of WW2.

Into that topic you can found interesting information about that :

Page 2 :

http://subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45370&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=pinpoint+drops&start=25

Posted by Caspofungin from real life reports :

here's some more info re hydrophones:

"ADM 219/563, Theoretical U/Boat listening ranges. This report was published by the US Navy's 10th Fleet ASW OR Group on 20 Aug 1943. Neglecting reflection and reflection of sound, and considering attenuation only, the distances at which a U-boat could detect the hydrophone effect (HE) for the noise output from a 50-ship convoy, or detect pings from a 40-watt QC projector, are given, in yards, as:

Water noise level-----Hydrophone Effect-----Intercepting pings
High---------------------------7,000----------------------19,000
Medium---------------------21,000-----------------------25,000
Low--------------------------31,000-----------------------27,000

These figures are viewed as reasonable, as U-boat survivor reports claim ranges of 10-15 miles, and in one case 20 miles.
Using sound intensities typical for US submarines, the following distances in yards at which an escort can hear a U-boat travelling at different speeds are calculated using similar assumptions:

Water--------------------Surfaced--------------------Submerged
Noise----------------7kt---14kt---17kt---------------4kt---6kt
High-----------------50---500---600------------------50---750
Medium-----------260---1800---2100--------------260---2500
Low---------------430---2500---2900----------------430---3300

It is assumed that the listening is non-directional and that the ASW vessel is noiseless. It is further assumed that these unrealistic assumptions will probably cancel each other out in practice."

The above is from
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:GYXEYNb20s8J:schmeisser.elsat.net.p l/temp/WW2nav14May02.pdf+ww2+hydrophone&hl=en&client=opera

which also has interesting info re number of torps needed to sink a ship, but that's a different discussion.

check the last table, the bold number -- that's surprisingly low range for a sub at (i assume) silent running. is that reflected in sh3?

also QCL, QCE, QGA are American active sonar systems.


As you can see in a noise water, it may be heavy waves or DD's high speeds, a sub in surface at 7 knots can be detected only at 50 yards, and submerged at 4 knots at 50 yards (45m)

With medium noise water submerged at 4 knots, it can be detected only at 260 yards, 234m.

I magine at silent running and 1 or 2 knots......

Due to that, and many comments i read along the time in many fonts i serach for a good silent running.


I my settings i look for a good and effective silent running, and for reduced sensor beam angles to reduce DDs/DEs effectivity, it give a certain protection when depth, not a thermal layer simulation but is better than nothing.

:up:

[svenks]

I'm not overly surprised that a "Copy of sensors.dat" file would be chosen over a "sensors.dat" file if both resided in the same folder.



Neither am I, but it all depends on how the program reads the folder contents. On the other hand, changing the extension almost always works, e.g. rename sensors.dat to sensors.tad.

Avon, if possible get both escorts to one side of you, turn your bow or stern (no, your sub's of course :lol: ) towards them. Active sonar is much less effective when it bounces of a small target.
Or you could go as deep as you possibly can and stop engines. Then see what happens.
Hope you get out of this mess,
BRGDS
Sven

[MirabelleBenou]

Redwine > the links you post send me only to the index page of the forum.

Strange things.....

[Redwine]

Avon, if possible get both escorts to one side of you, turn your bow or stern (no, your sub's of course :lol: ) towards them. Active sonar is much less effective when it bounces of a small target.
Or you could go as deep as you possibly can and stop engines. Then see what happens.
Hope you get out of this mess,
BRGDS
Sven

In that long "investigation" we noted in the AI sensrs file there is no present a line for aspect factor......

But it is present in another places, then i add a line for aspect factor in my settings, i am not sure if it works or not, but it is there stand by.

May be the game pick up it, because i note is is more easy for me to scape when i maintain the red lines of sonar contacts in the map always at my back.......

[Redwine]

Redwine > the links you post send me only to the index page of the forum.

Strange things.....

:hmm: :hmm: not for me..... but i will edit the post with the page number for you :up: :up:

They are page 9 and 2

[MirabelleBenou]

found them, thanks :)

[kiwi_2005]

I have been trying to evade at 1kt. No go.

This works about 3 out 5 goes, so save. Go as deep as you can then go to flank speed :huh: Yup. as soon as you think the escorts are above you while at flank speed head to the surface , if you time it right you wont get hit cos the charges are set to approx the depth you were at, zigzag while heading to the surface heading in the opposite driection to the escorts. Once you reach around 40 go all slow, cut to silent running and 2 knts, stay at around 40. If your feeling really game go to persicope depth and fire some quick wild shots just to get them really annoyed then do a little evil laughter to yourself and head back to 40-50 feet.

I call it the Krazy Kiwi move. :lol:

[kiwi_2005]

Is this a waw patrol? If so then maybe the Krazy Kiwi move might not be a good idea, if everything went wrong you dont want to get sunk.

[The Avon Lady]

Is this a waw patrol?
:yep: :yep: :yep:
:oops: :oops: :oops:

[Hartmann]

They are doing like trully hunters killers... and want drain the battery or the O2 of the boat until it was forced to surface. or stay forever underwater :dead: :dead:

If they don´t return to home the only option is wait to the night and run or fight in surface. :dead:

Or show the periscope near of a DD, with some luck Perhaps they blow up each other with the guns. :88)


In a diesel submarine with all of movile parts like turbines, ventilation, compressors and pumps shut off, coul be almost undetectable at 0 knts with pasive systems.

the question is how many things need to run a WW2 submarine, i think that a very few...perhaps ventilation fans and no more.
the only noise could be the hull in the surface waves or depht pressure effects.

In the later war the only hope was the new XXI sub , with great underwater endurance, speed, and snorchel.

Today the AIP in the modern diesel subs and radar coating snorchels make they a very dangerous oponent despite the advanced ASW gears and tactics.

[GOZO]

This is really a healthy forum and an intressting topic. So for what I have learned sofar my only hope for Avon is if you have decoy launchers and Albereich coating on your sub. Decoys have saved my butt several times when caught in shallow waters.

:up: /Per

[Redwine]

They are doing like trully hunters killers... and want drain the battery or the O2 of the boat until it was forced to surface. or stay forever underwater :dead: :dead:

If they don´t return to home the only option is wait to the night and run or fight in surface. :dead: .


That can be controled well with :

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=15 ;[min]

Reducing this time, they return to escort position often.

This time is the time during wich one if the DD or DE do not have contact with you, it abandon the search for you and return to escort position.

Will be good i we can have both behaviours, a DDs hunter killer serching for you up to you remain without battery and O2.

And a DE wich search for you few minutes, enforce you to dive deep, and back to escort position.

CB commented it is posible, but i was unable to understand understand him about how to do it.

:up:

[Stiebler]

I've been fascinated to read some of the items in this thread.

To answer Avon Lady's original post, I think the best strategy (since the warships now lack depthcharges) is to head away from the convoy as far as possible. That is, in the opposite direction to the convoy. At some point, the warships have to retire to resume their position. Whether this would work with a hunter-killer group (no convoy to defend) is less certain, but they must presumably return to defend their own turf at some point.

Concerning the use of copies of library files:
If this is true, then someone has had the bright idea of writing code that looks for key words in the file name, instead of the actual file name required. So 'Copy of sensors.dat' or 'sensorsold.dat' will be searched for the key word 'sensors'. This is pretty peculiar programming behaviour, since the first type of unwanted copy file 'Copy of' will appear first alphabetically but second in terms of file dating, while the second type of unwanted copy file 'sensordold.dat' will appear after the correct file both alphabetically and by time stamp. How can one make a sensible decision between these options? Presumably someone must have thought that it is better to have any file, than to risk having no file. But I just cannot believe that any programmer would not first look for the exactly right file!

Stiebler.

[Marhkimov]

Well, the developers only expected one file to be in the folder, not two...

so I guess they just got lazy... What's new? ;)

[The Avon Lady]

I've been very busy with real life and have not yet had a chance to play SH3 for several days now.

There are sme interesting idea for me to try here. I'll keep you posted when I've had the chance to continue my patrol.

Thanks all! :rock:

[Marhkimov]

Don't forget to have fun, Über Mom. :D

...dang, now if only my mom would play subsims...

[Wulfmann]

Well, 7 hours and I was complaining about 3!
But, the only times I have escaped from 2 plus hours of multiple escorts was, believe it or not, coming to periscope depth and sneaking away.
I had given up and decided to fight with my last fish but as I snuck away to make a stern shot they did not follow.
Maybe a one time deal????
I had edited all my escorts to be 3 or 4 from the start but frankly the improved equipment in 43 then 44 makes the 4s impossible if there are 2 of them or more.
So I since have edited convoys to only have one 4.
I still have not survived what you have and I am sure I stand in a long line of the impressed!!! :up:

Can't wait to hear the verdict like a Kaleum listening to reports in an area too far away to do anything but hope you survive.

Wulfmann

[bill clarke]

Hello Avonlady, have you tried using decoys to shake them off ?
BTW when are these available, I was playing a single mission and got a message "decoy ready" but when I went to the engineer's station the decoy option was greyed out.
From memory I have only been able to use them once.

[JScones]

Concerning the use of copies of library files:
If this is true, then someone has had the bright idea of writing code that looks for key words in the file name, instead of the actual file name required. So 'Copy of sensors.dat' or 'sensorsold.dat' will be searched for the key word 'sensors'. This is pretty peculiar programming behaviour, since the first type of unwanted copy file 'Copy of' will appear first alphabetically but second in terms of file dating, while the second type of unwanted copy file 'sensordold.dat' will appear after the correct file both alphabetically and by time stamp. How can one make a sensible decision between these options? Presumably someone must have thought that it is better to have any file, than to risk having no file. But I just cannot believe that any programmer would not first look for the exactly right file!
Hehe, take it from someone who's been a programmer and leader of large development teams for over 20 years - you'd be surprised what can happen behind the scenes! And there's lots of reasons why these things are done - some out of laziness, some out of anticipation of user "abuse".

Anyway, the "Copy of" file will maintain the original file's time/date stamp, so will be first if ordered by either date or name. Again though, this depends on how the application "calls" for the file.

BTW, SH3Cmdr implements such an approach - it recognises user added or user deleted files and adjusts accordingly - all without the knowledge or interest of the user (although it will differentiate between a copy of and original file). If it can't find the value in one location, it will look for it elsewhere, for, as you've stated, sometimes it is better to find a file with the values that you want than it is to be fickle about the file name.

[JScones]

so I guess they just got lazy... What's new? ;)
Gee, now I'm offended. Programmers would never be lazy. :roll:

Hang on...ummm...what was that I said above?...ummm...

You are spot on though on both counts. For example, using the above approach it takes ~10 lines of code for SH3Cmdr to either modify any part of Basic.cfg or even build an *entirely* new Basic.cfg, whereas, were I to look for specific values in specific files, it would take over 100 lines. So, in some ways lazy, in others more efficient.

[Marhkimov]

The great JScones is no ordinary programmer.

He is Masta J.Son super programmer! :D :up:

[The Avon Lady]

It's over. :o

And the U-624 is alive and well and on the surface. :arrgh!:

Here's my KTB and communications to BdU, just posted at WaW:
05MAR43 0150 BE61

HYDROPHONE CHECK. MULTIPLE SOUND CONTACTS DEAD AHEAD. HIGH SPEED SCREWS DETECTED AT 25°. SURFACING, FLANK SPEED, STD PROPULSION. ALTERING COURSE 30° TO PORT.



05MAR43 0158 BE61

ON SURFACE. HUNT III DESTROYER AT 320°, RANGE 6700M AND CLOSING, SPEED 12KTS, LEADING CONVOY'S PORT FLANK.



05MAR43 0201 BE61

CORVETTE AT 358°, RANGE 8100M AND CLOSING, SPEED 11KTS, RUNNING MID-AFT CONVOY'S PORT FLANK. WE'LL HAVE TO SQUEEZE BETWEEN THE DESTROYER AND THE CORVETTE. DARK IS TO OUR ADVANTAGE BUT IT'S A VERY CLEAR EVENING. COMBAT STATIONS.



05MAR43 0211 BE61

DESTROYER FIRING DECKGUN AT US, TURNING TOWARDS US. CRASH DIVE! DEPLOYED DECOY AT 60M. RIGGED FOR SILENT RUNNING. PINGING. TAKING EVASIVE ACTIONS.



05MAR43 0216 BE61

DEPTH 158M. HIT BY DEPTH CHARGES. FLOODING IN BOW QUARTERS. RADIO DAMAGED. HEAVY DAMAGE UP ABOVE TO EXTERNAL COMPONENTS. SCOPES AND ANTENNAS DAMAGED. TRYING TO EVADE NW UNDERNEATH CONVOY.



05MAR43 0228 BE61

DEPTH 155M. CHARGES STILL BEING DROPPED BUT NO NEW DAMAGE. RADIO REPAIRED. FLOODING IN BOW QUARTERS REPAIRED. NO INJURIES TO CREW. ANOTHER DECOY DEPLOYED. ALTERING COURSE FROM 20° TO 325°. HOPEFULLY, THEY'LL TAKE THE BAIT.



05MAR43 0230 BE61

CHARGES TO OUR AFT. DECOYS SEEM TO BE TAKING A POUNDING.



05MAR43 0256 BE61

DEPTH 160M. HIT AGAIN. FLOODING IN BOW QUARTERS. RADIO AND SCOPES DAMAGED. RADAR DESTROYED. REPAIRS COMPLETED IN SEVERAL MINUTES. NO INJURIES.



05MAR43 0337 BE61

DEPTH 160M DEPTH CHARGES HIT AGAIN. POUNDING HAS NOT CEASED. MINOR FLOODING IN COMMAND AND RADIO ROOMS AND BOW QUARTERS. ALL REPAIRED AND UNDER CONTROL. NO INJURIES. GETTING TENSE.



05MAR43 0404 BE61

DEPTH 160M. DEPTH CHARGE HIT. DAMGE TO DIESEL AND ELECTRIC ENGINES. COMPRESSOR, STERN QUARTES AND TORPEDO ROOM. NO INJURIES. PINGING. PINGING.



05MAR43 0505 BE61

DEPTH 170M. HIT AGAIN. MORE OF THE SAME. DAMAGE TO COMMAND, RADIO ROOMS, DIESELS DAMAGED, MINOR FLOODING IN SEVERAL COMPARTMENTS. ALL REPAIRED QUICKLY.



05MAR43 0532 BE61

STILL PINNED DOWN. CAN'T SHAKE THEM. THERE ARE 2. ONE'S DEFINITELY A CORVETTE. THE OTHER SOUNDS LIKE A DESTROYER. LAST 2 DEPTH CHARGES WERE VERY CLOSE BUT NO DAMAGE. I FEAR FOR MY UBOAT AND CREW.



05MAR43 0605 BE61

USELESS DECOYS! THEY ARE HEAVILY PINGING US, FOLLOWING OUR EVERY MOVE. BUT NO CHARGES LATELY.



05MAR43 0630 BE61

IT SEEMS THEY ARE OUT OF DEPTH CHARGES. DON'T HEAR ANY OTHER ESCORT HEADING OUR WAY. THE 2 ABOVE ARE STILL KEEPING US PINNED DOWN. REDUCING SPEED TO 1KT TO RUN QUIETER AND CONSERVE BATTERIES.



05MAR43 0730 BE61

DEPTH 170M. CAN'T SHAKE THEM BUT NO MORE CHARGES. INCREASING DEPTH TO 180M. MAYBE THEY'LL LOSE US.



05MAR43 0748 BE61

DEPTH 200M. SHE'S HOLDING UP. MANOUVERING 90° PORT, HEADING EAST.



05MAR43 0756 BE61

DEPTH 210M. NOW HEADING NW. BEING PINGED BUT LESS AND FURTHER AWAY. WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO SLIP AWAY.



05MAR43 1000 BE61

OUR FRIENDS ABOVE ARE STILL WITH US. INCREASING DEPTH TO 225M.



05MAR43 1024 BE61

DEPTH 244M. I'VE NEVER BEEN THIS DEEP. BOAT IS STAYING IN ONE PIECE DESPITE DEPTH CHARGE HITS WE'VE ABSORBED. WE ARE BEING PINGED LESS AND LESS. SOUND CONTACTS INDICATE RANGE BETWEEN US AND ENEMY IS WIDENING.



05MAR43 1057 BE61

BOTH ENEMY SHIPS ARE NOW DISTANT. SECURE FROM SILENT RUNNING. PERISCOPE DEPTH, AHEAD FLANK WHEN 150M REACHED.



05MAR43 1220 BE61

BDU,

WE HAVE JUST SURFACED AFTER BEING FORCED UNDER OVER 10 HOURS AGO. WE WERE SPOTTED BY A HUNT III DESTROYER LEADING THE CONVOY'S PORT FLANK. A CORVETTE ACCOMPANIED HER THROUGHOUT THE ATTACK ON US. THEY RAN OUT OF DEPTH CHARGES TO DROP ON US SOME 5 HOURS AGO BUT THEY STAYED RIGHT ON TOP OF US, OBVIOUSLY FOR US TO SURFACE FOR OXYGEN.

OUR RADAR ANTENNA IS KAPUT. WE SUSTAINED HEAVY DAMAGE TO SCOPES AND ALL OTHER ANTENNAS, THE FORWARD DECK PLATES AND MINOR DAMAGE TO OUR FLAK GUNS AND THE TOWER. INTERNAL DAMAGES INCLUDED MINOR FLOODING AND DAMAGED GUAGES IN MULTIPLE COMPARTMENTS BUT ALL OF THOSE ARE FULLY REPAIRED.

NO INJURIES TO CREW OTHER THAN MINOR SCRAPES AND BRUISES.

WE SUCCEEDED IN EVADING THE ESCORTS BY DIVING TO 244M, CONSTANTLY TRAVELING AT 1KT. YES, WITH ALL DAMAGES INCURRED, OUR UBOAT COULD HANDLE THE DEPTH.

THIS WAS MUCH WORSE THAN OUR EXPERIENCE IN PRIOR PATROLS. THOSE SHIPS UP THERE KNEW HOW TO HUNT AND NOT LET UP.

OK. THAT WAS HISTORY. NOW I MUST ASK FOR ADVICE ON FURTHER ORDERS. WE HAVE 3 CHOICES:

1. PURSUE THE CONVOY AGAIN. RECHARGE BATTERIES AND WAIT UNTIL NIGHT BEFORE ATTACKING.

2. RESUME COURSE TO OUR DESIGNATED PATROL AREA.

3. RETURN TO BREST, DUE TO UNKOWN DAMAGE TO HULL.

I WOULD PREFER TO PURSUE THE CONVOY AGAIN. AS FOR HULL DAMAGE, WE WERE ABLE TO STAY IN ONE PIECE AT 244M. PLUS, WE KNOW THAT 2 OF THE CONVOY'S ESCORTS ARE OUT OF CHARGES.

AWAITING ORDERS.

OBLT. Z. S AVON VON VONNEGUT II, U-624
A big thank you to all of your suggestions. :rock: :rock: :rock:

In the end, it would appear that depth was the most important factor.

2 of today's hours of gameplay were on auto-pilot. I left SH3 on while I was out shopping. :smug:

[Wulfmann]

Impressive; most impressive!

Wulfmann

[Crash Dive]

Good to hear you survived that ordeal. Good luck in the future. :up:

[The Avon Lady]

The only thing I have to add is that some time after sending in my Uboat's contact and patrol reports, I received a must unexpected radio message reply:

BE MORE AGRESSIVE!

:hulk:

[zombiewolf]

:rotfl:

[U-104]

:rotfl:

[Wulfmann]

The only thing I have to add is that some time after sending in my Uboat's contact and patrol reports, I received a must unexpected radio message reply:BE MORE AGRESSIVE!:hulk:

That is like insisting Erich Hartmann is not shooting down enough planes.

Based on your report I have braved the deep past 200 for the first time. I kept going until the DCes sounded far enough above; 252 meters. I had missed the convoy's turn and was ambushed by 5 escorts (No escort in my game is less than a 3) I sank 2 with 2 fish spreads from in front but there were 3 in a vick formation coming at my stern and I dove fast and deep. I can honestly say had I not read your report I would not have considered going near that depth and believe it saved this patrol. I begin a 8th patrol for this 1943 start career when I sign off now, only the second time I have had an 8th 1943 patrol in 50 attempts. It is Jan 1944 and I am hoping to survive to get a XXI. Like yourself, I play 100% and dead is start over with a new career.
Wulfmann
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/252meters.jpg

[CaptainEO]

In Iron Coffins Captain Werner recalls being kept under by escorts continuously for 36-48 hours after initial contact.