PAYWARE or FREEWARE?

[Marhkimov]

Please give me your honest opinions? (And finally, a serious topic from Marhkimov!)


The MOST highly anticipated mod for Combat Flight Simulator 3 is called Over Flanders Fields (OFF). It was over a year in development by regular CFS3 community members. Just recently, the first of their three phases was released... As freeware.

But even more recently, they have announced that their subsequent mods, phases two and three, will be sold as payware. Supposedly, this is to support their server and website budget. Apparently, they don't want to upload their mods to free public servers.


Even if you guys have no care in the world about CFS3 or OFF, what does everyone think about this topic? Payware or Freeware??? And why?

[sonar732]

I'd suggest going to Aces High2 (www.hitechcreations.com) and checking them out! :up: :yep:

[Gizzmoe]

But even more recently, they have announced that their subsequent mods, phases two and three, will be sold as payware.

For how much?

[Marhkimov]

Not sure yet...

But as much as I love OFF, I am more interested in discussing the philosophical issues between choosing to make mods available as freeware or payware.

[lesrae]

For how much?

Agreed, I'd be happy paying a few quid for someone's mod work, but once the price starts to get higher than £10 or so I want an official, supported product.

[Marhkimov]

As a modder myself, I have always believed in freeware.


This is what I think about the entire act of modding:

For me, modding is about slaving my ASS off... Spending every awake moment of my freetime trying to make that last tweek or improvement... It's about being stuck at an intersection on the way home and coming up with a great idea, and rushing home to see if it works... It's about reading wonderful and inspirational responses from people I don't even know, saying things such as, "Amazing work! Great job! You guys are the best!"... It's about making people happy, by giving them more than they ever asked for... And in the end, I will have gained a very high reward: the satisfaction of making others happy. That feeling is worth more than money itself.


And think about it; if I was out to make a quick buck, then I wouldn't resort to modding with my freetime. Instead, I'd get a job, or something that pays REAL money...

IMHO modding is meant to be a gift from the soul; an act of kindness from one's heart. Modding is lending your services to the community, free of lust for acclaim or reward... Too bad the OFF team doesn't share my opinion.

[Gizzmoe]

But as much as I love OFF, I am more interested in discussing the philosophical issues between choosing to make mods available as freeware or payware.

Like lesrae I would be willing to pay a small amount for such a huge mod (5USD is ok IMO). But one thing doesn´t make sense... You said that they don´t want to upload their mod to free public servers. Why? It´s not ok to moan about server costs when there are enough ways to distribute a mod via free services like Fileplanet, Filefront and of course Bittorrent.

[Marhkimov]

You said that they don´t want to upload their mod to free public servers. Why? It´s not ok to moan about server costs when there are enough ways to distribute a mod via free services like Fileplanet, Filefront and of course Bittorrent.
That's exactly what I told them on their forums...

But apparently, my suggestions fell upon deaf ears. We as the SH3 Community would be able to sustain ourselves, EVEN IF terrapin's site were to go offline forever. If needed, it would be just as simple for us to switch to using fileplanet, filefront, and other FREE services.


IMO, they absolutely don't need to service their own personal websites and download servers, especially if they are too expensive. I'm not sure why they do what they do...

[Gizzmoe]

I'm not sure why they do what they do...

Well, it´s quite obvious. They want to make money and I fully understand this. They just shouldn´t lie about it. They released the first part of the mod, it makes people hungry for more and then they later sell the improved version. That´s quite clever! "Full Canvas Jacket" for RB3D also wasn´t free, they sold it for more than $20.

[Iceman]

Don't know if ya know an old "American" saying....Gas,Grass, or Ass....No One Rides For Free. :)

Free is good even great but hard work at something cannot be taken for granted. :) 2cents

[Gizzmoe]

Don't know if ya know an old "American" saying....Gas,Grass, or Ass....No One Rides For Free. :)

Free is good even great but hard work at something cannot be taken for granted. :) 2cents

Absolutely right!

[Marhkimov]

Well, it´s quite obvious. They want to make money and I fully understand this. They just shouldn´t lie about it. They released the first part of the mod, it makes people hungry for more and then they later sell the improved version. That´s quite clever! "Full Canvas Jacket" for RB3D also wasn´t free, they sold it for more than $20.
It's really contradictory to think so because they are such nice guys. They always reply to posts and help people with their mod.

It's just hard to believe that they would do something so blatantly devious.


For comparisons, think if Beery or oRGy released their mods for free, and later they decide to make us pay for the newer versions...

[Marhkimov]

And against popular opinion, there IS such thing as a free lunch. This is what my Dad used to tell me:
The only time there's ever a free lunch, is when you decide to offer your own lunch for free.

And that's about the only thing I believe from my Dad. :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

Free is good even great but hard work at something cannot be taken for granted. :) 2cents

Well said. Most things with value have an associated price.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

... plus, the increasing complexity of the target apps require a lot more work on the part of the modders nowadays when compared to what was needed a few years ago...

i used to whip out Flight Sim scenery and planes way back when... but look at what's required for a decent aircraft or scenery model for the current FS...

also, it requires additional, and sometimes expensive tools to mod some of these games... not to mention the time devoted to such tasks.

yeah... if fairly priced, i'd have no objection to paying for something i thought was worthwhile...

--Mike

[TteFAboB]

I'm happy with good mods, when a mod group is highly motivated because they have a price tag on their mods and they'll make a little extra money from it and even more talented modders join the group and they released a mod that is of superior quality to the original product (Microsoft Flight Simulator), I get happy, they get happy, paypal gets happy.

Marhkimov, if you had a modder group, with 5 or 10 talented people who would work like a professional dev group, would you be able to offer better mods than what you can do alone? Wouldn't you make more people happy with greater mods? Higher quality mods? I'm not judging any of your mods, I'm simply assuming a team can do better/larger stuff than a solo, given all members of the team are as skilled and dedicated as the solo modder.

So, in the end, you are being selfish for automatically excluding payware mods, you are denying to share your talent in a team to provide, supposedly, superior mods to the public.

Payware modders also get nice feedback, sometimes even more meaningfull because someone who pays 5$ for a mod is someone dedicated to that game, it's his hobby, his passion, he knows what he's talking about, it's not someone who installs a game, downloads 10 mods, plays for a month and then forgets about it.

Now, a mod is a mod and a game is a game, the game exists without any mods, so a mod can't be too expensive unless it's a complete overhaul, a whole new game, this is usually the case with Flight Simulator mods, the Microsoft team has been utterly surpassed in quality by modders, and those mods are expensive because they are aimed at FS fans, not the general kidd0, it's for people who were flying together during new years eve, it's for people who fly the real planes and want to fly it again, or other models, at home. Those mods are worth the money because they are better than the original game.

Now games like SH3 for example, have a more limited modding scope, can you charge for textures? An edited ship assembled with already existing pieces? Convoy editing? Are these little SH3 mods worth money? Not for me and I'd say there's plenty of people willing to do the same things for free, but if Ubisoft had chosen to release the SDK and we had the craziest mods available, I'd be willing to pay for them, such as a Pacific campaign, or nationality change like a British or Italian campaign or even an era change back to a WWI campaign.

[XabbaRus]

Depends on the mod.

Something that uses outside apps, eg 3DS MAX and a lot of time I guess you could say there is a fair point in charging but only if that is to cover costs.

Now what gets me is IL-2. Apart from the official expansions eg Aces over Europe and the other European theatre one, the mods I have seen for sale on X-1 and other places, eg Operation Barbarossa and Fall Blue seem to be massive new campaigns that have been put together using the IL-2 mission editor. (IIRC you can't mod IL-2 that much ie adding new models etc.) That's like me or someone making a huge dynamic mission in DW using the editor and then selling it.

It is a thorny question.

[Marhkimov]

Marhkimov, if you had a modder group, with 5 or 10 talented people who would work like a professional dev group, would you be able to offer better mods than what you can do alone? Wouldn't you make more people happy with greater mods? Higher quality mods? I'm not judging any of your mods, I'm simply assuming a team can do better/larger stuff than a solo, given all members of the team are as skilled and dedicated as the solo modder.
Who said anything about me being a solo modder? I was never a solo modder, and I never will be.


So, in the end, you are being selfish for automatically excluding payware mods, you are denying to share your talent in a team to provide, supposedly, superior mods to the public.
Are you so sure about that? :hmm: I do believe in team play, I just despise payware...


But neverminding, I'll probably buy the OFF software. They are THAT good.

[Sailor Steve]

IF the mod is good enough, and big enough, and IF the modders have permission from the publisher to ask a fee, then that's their business-literally. Those are important IFs, though.

[Marhkimov]

Yep, I agree... It is THEIR business.

It won't accomplish anything, but I just wanted to get a philosophical discussion about freeware and payware.

[TteFAboB]

Are you so sure about that?

I can only make assumptions based on illations, but nevermind that.

If you are willing to buy a mod, you recognize what's important is the quality of the mod and that a high quality mod is worth it.

[Marhkimov]

This is what I'm most interested in:

Has society turned everything into a big commercialization??? Everything takes money these days... What is happening to society?..... Free modding is almost like "the last stand" if you will..... And if we don't have free mods, then what do we have?

Just look at Christmas for instance.... These days, is it really about the spirit of giving?

[Excalibur Bane]

This is what I'm most interested in:

Has society turned everything into a big commercialization??? Everything takes money these days... What is happening to society?..... Free modding is almost like "the last stand" if you will..... And if we don't have free mods, then what do we have?

Just look at Christmas for instance.... These days, is it really about the spirit of giving?

Welcome to the world we live in. Nothing is sacred anymore, everything can be bought. Wealth is influence, influence is power and well, power is everything. People's lives are summed up by how well they did finanically. Unless you happen to be the pope, when you die you won't be noticed unless you were rich or relatively wealthy.

One could debate this topic for hours, it relates to everything from economic issues, to politics to war. Everything is driven by money, or the strategic gain of said money. It's not money itself that tends to drive people, but the advantages that come with wealth. You become powerful, a little money here and there and you can get anything you want. That's what is so attractive to people. That's what people kill for.

Everything has exceptions of course, but they are becoming fewer and fewer every year and with every new generation. I suppose the larger issue here, is when will this change and what will be the cost to humanity before we get head's straight and remember what is truly important? I suspect it will cost us our entire species before the problem is solved.

[Marhkimov]

Society is totally out of our puny hands. We are nothing but peons in the grand scheme of things.

But modders do have a choice to make either payware or freeware... So why make people pay, when life already does more than enough of that?


Every SH3 fan should be glad to know that I will NEVER take part in a payware project. :yep: NEVER

[TLAM Strike]

Every piece of mod work I've done, SC/DW Missions, Ships for Virtual Sailor, SHII and Global Conflict Blue, The Escape Velocity: Firefly mod, have been or will be released as freeware and have its source material available. I feel it’s the best way to help the community grow is by giving freely to it and letting others take that and built their own stuff with it. If you decide to start making stuff for money fine, just make sure your product is better than what is available for free and give support to it.

[TteFAboB]

Has society turned everything into a big commercialization??? Everything takes money these days... What is happening to society?..... Free modding is almost like "the last stand" if you will..... And if we don't have free mods, then what do we have?

Just look at Christmas for instance.... These days, is it really about the spirit of giving?

Society is totally out of our puny hands. We are nothing but peons in the grand scheme of things.

But modders do have a choice to make either payware or freeware... So why make people pay, when life already does more than enough of that?


Every SH3 fan should be glad to know that I will NEVER take part in a payware project. NEVER

I had this hypothesis, now you gave me the fundaments to base it.

Are you sure you make mods to make your users happy? I think there is a greater reason, something above that, given the fact you created this topic to despise payware and glorify your freeware mods, you are not out there to make anyone happy, you want fame and glory, you want to be recognized as the freedom fighter of freeware against the evil hordes of payware modders of the apocalypse, either to the public, to yourself or both.

Now you are a contraditory fellow, you deem little importance to money yourself, but then, to your users, money matters, money is so important to them they shouldn't have to waste it with your mods.

Why make people pay? Why bother making mods? Why should professionals waste their time with mods while they could be working on a game development? The full length of your question could be: "Why make people pay when a mod is not worth it?", that sounds fair for someone who understands what both options offer, but you chose to exclude payware entirely from your realm, that means you automatically exclude 50% of your modding possibilities, like tribes in Africa who exclude women are missing 50% of their talent, you pompously believe freeware to be the last stand, but that is a comfortable position for you to take with a game like SH3, where Ubisoft does not grant rights to sell payware mods to anyone other than X1 (who packages stolen mods) and considering how limited the game is, without an SDK it is difficult to offer any mods other than superficial editing.

I'm glad you will never sell any mod, I'd tend to believe it is a pitty you decide to always work as an amateur, always in your spare time, but you must be a master in the art of divination to know the future and this must be the right choice, you have probably noticed all your payware projects weren't good enough to be worth money.

But you could at least respect other modders, who decide to make a payware from scratch and create a product worth the money, because you make it sound as if your mods and all future mods you will ever make were and will be worth the money and you made the decision not to charge for them, and that payware modders want to suck the last drop of life off their clients. Good for you, shine, liberator angel of the helpless gamers, we shall follow your swanking.

[bradclark1]

Free is great but if the modder wants to be paid for it power to them.
A lot of people are doing that nowadays. Microsofts FS, Train Sim, RB3d, X-Plane and Falcon 4 are cases in point.
I've bought a few add-ons for a few games and enjoy them. They were worth it to me thus I didn't mind paying for them.

[XabbaRus]

Like I said it depends on the mod.

If it is something like FS wheere high quality well researched models have been made and the flight profiles sorted out along with scenery that is one thing.

If it is like the massive mission packs/campaign things made in the sims own editor like IL-2 then no.

[Wildcat]

I've only come across a few mods for flight sims worth paying for. I haven't tried over flanders field, but if they originally designed and released it to be freeware, it leads me to believe they have forgotten the original reason they created it now that they want people to pay for the rest of it.

Not that it's bad that they want money, but it's kind of like a money grab. I am a mod developer and have been for many games for many many years. I have put in thousands upon thousands of hours modding certain games but even still I haven't asked for any money, the reason I mod is because it helps me enjoy the game more and it helps others enjoy the game more. The moment I start charging other people for my work, I feel like the purpose has been lost.

[Marhkimov]

@ TteFAboB,


Sure, I AM being a little contradictory... But then maybe I'm just a little pissed that OFF began as freeware, and is all of a sudden going payware. Who wouldn't be pissed, right?

Maybe I AM saying that I stand on a higher ground than the OFF Mod Team, but then again, that is my business. I am allowed to think and feel however I want.

And to quote Wildcat's last line in his post:

The moment I start charging other people for my work, I feel like the purpose has been lost.
I dunno about you, but I feel the same way. The challenge of modding is to enhance the gameplay for others, WITHOUT having to go out of your way to empty their pocketbooks. Well, that's just how I feel.



But lets forget about me for a second... Let's forget about OFF for a second...

Ya' know what? It really sucks to run into payware... Hah, simple as that.

[Kapitan]

some times its good to have payware some times not

[kiwi_2005]

payware antispyware = spyware. Freeware antispyware is good antispyware. Some payware antispyware when installed will always find spyware on your computer then ask you to pay to get the DL the updates etc., Spybot is known to be one.

[Gizzmoe]

payware antispyware = spyware. Freeware antispyware is good antispyware. Some payware antispyware when installed will always find spyware on your computer then ask you to pay to get the DL the updates etc., Spybot is known to be one.

Spybot is freeware and doesn´t do what you´ve described.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Please give me your honest opinions? (And finally, a serious topic from Marhkimov!)


The MOST highly anticipated mod for Combat Flight Simulator 3 is called Over Flanders Fields (OFF). It was over a year in development by regular CFS3 community members. Just recently, the first of their three phases was released... As freeware.

But even more recently, they have announced that their subsequent mods, phases two and three, will be sold as payware. Supposedly, this is to support their server and website budget. Apparently, they don't want to upload their mods to free public servers.


Even if you guys have no care in the world about CFS3 or OFF, what does everyone think about this topic? Payware or Freeware??? And why?

being good buddies with Winding Man from years ago, i can tell you i am not happy about this going PW.

as Mathias Pommerien (groundcrewdesigns) said on netwings, payware is payware.

This mod should go out to all Cfs lovers Freeware, plase 1 to 99 if necessary.

all those who use it (i dont) should have the balls to stand up and pay their share of the bandwith costs, because this is appearently badly needed.

Youngsters could jhust put a five dollar or euro piece of money in an envelope and send to mark in southern africa.

This is bad for OFF, less users will use it, and therefor limits the support OFF gets.
are they cutting the brench of the tree they are sitting on?
dont know.

I am glad to see that the MAW crew will keep their mod it Freeware, and if necessary, i will stand up and send the Maw crew a 50 euro ticket in an envelope.


Payware: no go. :(

[kiwi_2005]

Spybot is freeware and doesn´t do what you´ve described.[quote]

typo correction, i meant Spyblocker.

I use spybot search & destroy and microsofts Beta 1 Antispyware[/quote]

[Abraham]

Basically I'm for free mods.
Sailor Steve however described the circumstances under which payware could be acceptable.

But most of all I am gratefull for the mentality of the Subsim modding community - as expressed by Marhkimov earlier in this thread - that contributes a lot to the succes of this site and the games we play.
Thanks guys :up:

[TteFAboB]

Marhkimov, you created the thread, now you'll have to digest me, I know I don't taste as good as chicken. :hulk:

It CAN really suck to run into payware, or not! Depends on the payware, if it's not worth it, if the seller is trying to make cheap small profit, then it sucks indeed.

I understand your frustration, but what does the OFF has that other mods can't have? What does the OFF created that you couldn't create? Nothing, if Beery started charging for the RUb package we'd have a freeware clone ready in a couple of weeks at worst, it's all a matter of time, dedication and will.

But, if things went your way, payware wouldn't exist, at least for now, and if your divination is good enough so that you can safely predict how games and mods will work in the future, forever. That means if I ever decided to mod a game, 50% of my options would be automatically excluded, if I could come up with a good payware project, it wouldn't happen, as long as you were dealing the cards, I don't want to be limited only to freeware if I could enjoy the best of both worlds, I don't know what will happen in the next 10 years with games, I don't know what kind of games, what kind of mods will exist, I do not dare to reject payware today.

You cannot see how payware can enhance gameplay to others, even emptying their pocketbooks, fine then, I cannot pull your eye lids open, but if payware is the only way for me to get the most accurate 747 on Flight Simulator, with dozens of unique bells and whistles, fully customizable options/features and tech support, I'm willing to pay for it, between no 747 like that, and a payware version, I'll take the payware and be glad when the group start releasing other planes with the same high level of quality, the other option is to spend $1000+ per hour, scheduled, on a real simulator, and though it's great to swing around in those things (do not miss a chance if you ever get one), Flight Simulator has better graphics. :rotfl:

What I don't understand is why so much nitpicking with payware, it's money, it's a mod, for a game, why this obsession with money? That's the ultimate contradiction, isn't it obvious a freeware mod is usually a small piece of what will later be a greater mod, a greater project, and a payware mod is usually an attempt at profit? And like Sailor Steve said it has to be "big" to be worth it. This is very bland, very general, but the fact is most decent payware exist on games that were tailored for them, such as Flight Simulator, most payware mods for Flight Simulator are built from scratch, the whole thing is new content, but for most games, payware is the exception and not the rule, because for a mod to be worth half the price or the full price of a new game, it has to have decent new content.

So, I don't think running into payware sucks, I don't think spending a little money sucks because money goes around in circles, every dollar I spend returns me, every dollar I spend nicely returns to me in double, I don't want to hold every single bill that lands on my hands with a strong, firm grasp to take dust on my wallet, I want to let my money dance on the global financial ballet, I want to be part of it, let it flow, let it go, new money is printed all the time, money itself, the paper, is worthless, if you deserve it, if you earn it, money comes back, new money comes in.

It's great that you found something that pleases you and are so determined, but many paywares of the past became freewares today, in the end, you will be remembered for the mods you made and for the satisfaction you brought to the games, if somehow you find yourself in a situation where your only option is a payware, I really believe you should take the opportunity and make the mod anyway, if you get any real money out of it, you can always donate it to subsim and support freewares for the next generation of sub sims!

:arrgh!: :up: :sunny: :D

[Marhkimov]

Actually, I don't play online. Every game I play, it's always singleplayer for me.

And I really hate CFS3. It's horrible compared to IL2. Dang, and OFF was so promising, but I don't think I'll continue to play it... Not because it's payware... But because it runs on the CFS3 engine.... YUK!!!

I'm more interested in a brand new WWI fighter sim coming out, based on Oleg's IL2 engine. There are some pre-alpha stage pictures out, and so far the game looks phenominal. :yep:
See for yourself: http://www.gennadich.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500


OT, but I just got home from EB Games and Best Buys, and could not find one copy of Pacific Fighters... Aw horse sh!t... It turns out that it's been discontinued. CRAP CRAP CRAP!! :damn:

Anyone know where I can get a copy? I don't want to buy it online either...

[CCIP]

Ack, my local store has about a dozen copies still lying around at a low price, but I think it's just a local thing :dead:

[HundertzehnGustav]

Anyone know where I can get a copy? I don't want to buy it online either...

saw one copy today... in french.

my "yankee Friends" over often to a store chain over in "yankee country"... its name is CompUSA

would that be a idea?

[Marhkimov]

Not at EB Games.
Not at Best Buys.
Not at Target.
Not at Circuit City.


I went to Walmart and found 2 copies of PF. I was so thrilled to find it that I bought myself a bonus game, Lock OnL Modern Air Combat.

As you can see, I think I'm in love with Ubisoft products. :yep:

[HundertzehnGustav]

OMG you poor bugger...

i got lomac too but...

i didnt know i CAN NOT fly the F 18 Hornet

and that i need to push a combo of about a zillion buttions to make a Gatling gun shoot...

BEURK too techno for me...

back to Il2FBAEPPF 402 and use the A-20 Havoc and FW 190...

and the beaufighter in anti sub missions.... :rock: :rotfl:

yar im a damn Traitor i no.... :arrgh!:

[HundertzehnGustav]

WTF i am NOT stinking drunk in trinidad.
i dont drink not stink nor smoke.

these avatars are creezy... :D

but i wouldnt mind doing a trip to trinidad right now.. freezing cold in here...

and now i am WEPS... whats that supposed to mean?

aah unkle neal wtf???

[em2nought]

I like the fact that there might be a few WWI mods worth paying for. I use the WWI mod for FS:SDOE and I'd actually pay for it if I had to. Maybe mainstream gaming will notice that people are paying for WWI mods for flight sims. Maybe the WWI sim using the IL2 engine will even get completed. The last three WWI flight sims(17 Hours, Birds of Prey, and Knights over Europe) that I wanted never made it out the door. :damn: