Realism, do you really want it -now includes in game images

[Der Teddy Bar]

Guys,
Though the 100% sinking, 100% of the time from an under keel detonation has been removed from the NYGM Ship Damage Mod, the under keel detonation can still have a more powerfull punch than does the impact. All within the contraints of the game, I can only do so much.


For each class of ship, for example, the Coastal, every Coastal ship’s draft is always exactly 6.9 metres, never varies. Obviously the C3’s is 9.0 etc.

What I am proposing is to create a NYGM Keel Mod where a class of ship will have up to 6 keel depth variations. For example, a Coastal Merchant may have the default keel depth of 6.9, as well as 6.4, 6.7, 7.2, 7.5 & 7.75. In game, the recognition will not show separate ships with separate keel depths. These keel variations are to simulate different cargo loads.


1. The game does not model depth keeping issues for torpedos - issue caused a torpedo to run up to 2.7+ metres deeper than set
2. The game does not have a minimum depth for torpedos - real world a torpedo had a very high chance of being a surface runner when set to less than 3 metres
3. The game does not model surface runners etc.
4. We cannot disable the magnetic pistol for torpedos



So what does this proposed NYGM Keel Mod add?

1. It again adds uncertainty, it makes the player ‘Look’ at the ship he is attacking instead of ‘yep that a Coastal’ and going straight off to the torpedo screen to set the depth at 7.9.
2. It makes him consider should he chance a better result with the magnetic pistol or should he make sure with either 2 torpedos (1xM & 1xI) or should he just go impact? As it is now, it is monkey see monkey do, once the speed is worked out we have the easy results coming back.
3. It replicates that a ships keel depth is dependent upon it load
4. It goes some way to address the perfect depth keeping abilities of the torpedo – depth errors are not implemented. The German torpedos could end up as much at 2.7+ metres below the specified depth.

In game examples...
Keel depth at 5.9
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6023/coastalat596du.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coastalat596du.jpg)

Keel depth at 6.9 <== Default
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4108/coastalat698up.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coastalat698up.jpg)

Keel depth at 7.9
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8877/coastalat797cn.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coastalat797cn.jpg)

[Marhkimov]

I'm all in favor of the NYGM!

btw, before anyone asks, NYGM = Not Your Grandmother's Mod

[HEMISENT]

I LIKE THIS-GO FOR IT!
:up: :up: :up:

Great idea Teddy

[CWorth]

Id use it for sure...considering I never use the magnetic heads on the torpedoes anyway.Only use the Impact setting.

[gdogghenrikson]

too much realism ruins the game

[Marhkimov]

too much realism ruins the game
Well, Teddy Bar calls it realism.... but neverminding what he calls the NYGM, it looks fun to me... :D

[gdogghenrikson]

3. The game does not model surface runners etc.
Interesting, you're right, it doesnt (I just check for myself)
coulndnt you change that with SH3 mini tweeker possibly

real world a torpedo had a very high chance of being a surface runner when set to less than 3 metres
why would you want to set it <3 meters?.........enlighten me
:up:

[Krupp]

Good simulators can't have enough realism, so every bit we possibly can include is more than welcomed.

[kiwi_2005]

too much realism ruins the game

True, im bored to death with RUB 1.45, Im bored to death with 100% realism that i now play with officer help cos im bored to death configureing and setting up the boring targets....

I find WAW keeps me interested.... cos its online and it feels like i belong to the greywolves - thats the sense of realism where no other MOD can beat.

[kiwi_2005]

I meant cos we go online to communicated and all contribute to the war. etc.,

[Der Teddy Bar]

too much realism ruins the game

I think that SHIII's lack of realism in so far as the AI is as thick as a lump of 4x2, the airplanes are even thicker, say a lump of 4x4, the escorts have their moments, mostly through cheating :D and then there is no overiding AI to simulate Coastal Command. All this goes a long way to making SHIII not as exciting as it could be.

As it is, all you need to do is race in on the surface like a bull in a china shop and shoot. The merchant AI is so easy. Then, if an escort is within 20 k's it will head your way, if it is 21 k's away it will do nothing. But as the Lost contact time is only 40 minutes (default is 15) when the time runs out, well before the escort sees you, the escort will actually turn around and resumes its original course. A plane might come, might not either.

Of course by now you have sank 5 ships in the space of 2 days all in the same grid, and the merchant ships keep comming the the AI escorts and planes don't. Yep, that can become boaring.

So I would arque, that it is the lack of realism in SHIII that goes a long way to making SHIII not as exciting as it could be :up:

[Der Teddy Bar]

3. The game does not model surface runners etc.
Interesting, you're right, it doesnt (I just check for myself)
coulndnt you change that with SH3 mini tweeker possibly

real world a torpedo had a very high chance of being a surface runner when set to less than 3 metres
why would you want to set it <3 meters?.........enlighten me
:up:
Surface runners and faulty depth keeping are not modelled in SHIII. Sadly, we can fired in any sea state.

You might set the depth at less than 3 metres in very stormy weather when a ship is riding up and down on the crest of the waves. Then your torpedo set at 4 metres could go under the ship. You turned the magnetic pistol off and thus it doesn't explode.

You might do it to target an escort with a impact pistol rather than risk a premature explosion. with the magnetic pistol.

It should be noted, that the 3 metres was the depth for fair weather and not high sea states.

[Detritus]

I could possibly use this to a certain degree. Not with every career, not necessarily in every patrol either, so it would be nice if you could have it as an option in realism settings or something. If you don't like it, you could return to default settings without all the fuss. All in all, it depends how good this mod would be. Every mod is a product of the modder and his/hers vision so it isn't necessarily everyone's cup of tea- too tough, too easy. After all, we've had lotsa of these 'realism' 'discussions' here before...

[kiwi_2005]

As it is, all you need to do is race in on the surface like a bull in a china shop and shoot. The merchant AI is so easy. Then, if an escort is within 20 k's it will head your way, if it is 21 k's away it will do nothing. But as the Lost contact time is only 40 minutes (default is 15) when the time runs out, well before the escort sees you, the escort will actually turn around and resumes its original course. A plane might come, might not either.

:yep:

I wonder at what you modders would of done if you had access to the SDK. Boy SH3 would of been interesting to play.

[Letum]

:up: Sounds great!

[nappy]

How you realism guys manage to calculate, speed, AoB and distance to a target whilst
"charging in like a bull" and actually hittin anythin is beyond me :o

Unless i remain at a constant course and not movin, theres no way ill be able to calculate the above mentioned data :cry:

nappy


too much realism ruins the game

I think that SHIII's lack of realism in so far as the AI is as thick as a lump of 4x2, the airplanes are even thicker, say a lump of 4x4, the escorts have their moments, mostly through cheating :D and then there is no overiding AI to simulate Coastal Command. All this goes a long way to making SHIII not as exciting as it could be.

As it is, all you need to do is race in on the surface like a bull in a china shop and shoot. The merchant AI is so easy. Then, if an escort is within 20 k's it will head your way, if it is 21 k's away it will do nothing. But as the Lost contact time is only 40 minutes (default is 15) when the time runs out, well before the escort sees you, the escort will actually turn around and resumes its original course. A plane might come, might not either.

Of course by now you have sank 5 ships in the space of 2 days all in the same grid, and the merchant ships keep comming the the AI escorts and planes don't. Yep, that can become boaring.

So I would arque, that it is the lack of realism in SHIII that goes a long way to making SHIII not as exciting as it could be :up:

[Sailor Steve]

too much realism ruins the game
Especially if you die-now THAT would be 100% realism.

I wouldn't play it of course.

I like the idea of randomized drafts for merchants; the more uncertainty the better.

[Der Teddy Bar]

How you realism guys manage to calculate, speed, AoB and distance to a target whilst
"charging in like a bull" and actually hittin anythin is beyond me :o

Unless i remain at a constant course and not movin, theres no way ill be able to calculate the above mentioned data :cry:

nappy
It is very easy actually :D Set TDC to full manual... notepad only used to adjust AOB, relative bearing and if desired, distance.

Calculating speed... get range of target and mark relative bearing and distance on map. Note time. Wait for a period of time, get range of target and mark relative bearing and distance on map. Note time. measure distance between and then use Wazoo's tool to calc speed. Do this several times to confirm adjust.

AOB... just use bridge or any other 'square' part of the ship and enter into notepad. Click twice, one to accept, one to send to TDC <== note this will up date the relative bearing.

Distance... not essential, has a small impact on aim but at distances under 1000 metres is irrelevant. This is used for the torpedo stop watch estimate.

Realative bearing... aim periscope at where you want the ship to be when you shoot, click the tick twice.

In the lead up/during the attack I have calced the speed, sadly this does not change, so if a ship can do 25 knots but is sailing at 5, it will continue to sail at 5, i.e. the lump of 4x2, I enter this into the TDC manually, end of story for this one.

I now see the AOB, then estimate what the AOB will be when the ship is where I want it to be when I fire. Move the Uzo/persicope to that bearing, enter the AOB and click twice.

I am ready to fire. No more needs to be done.

Obvuously I might need to adjust the relative bearing and the AOB, but that is a 5 second job, you just need to ensure that you click the notepads tick at least twice to ensure that the updated data goes to the TDC, so I click 3 times as I have had a few times where it did not update the TDC.

[panthercules]

So what does this proposed NYGM Keel Mod add?

1. It again adds uncertainty, it makes the player ‘Look’ at the ship he is attacking instead of ‘yep that a Coastal’ and going straight off to the torpedo screen to set the depth at 7.9.

I would love this if it really has some connection to what you see when you look at the ship - i.e., will the varied keel depth setting actually show up on the ship graphic, so that a Coastal that is set to 8.4 will actually look like it is riding deeper than one whose keel is set to 7.4? (and would you really be able to see IRL the difference between one ship riding 3 feet lower than another ship?)

Although this sounds interesting, without a real visible difference between the high and low settings (which I'm not sure you would be able to see IRL anyway), I'd probably still just use the default keel setting in those rare cases where I use magnetic exploders anyway, since there'd be no way to determine whether the ship was riding high or low so you might as well split the difference and shoot for the middle and hope.

[Der Teddy Bar]

I would love this if it really has some connection to what you see when you look at the ship - i.e., will the varied keel depth setting actually show up on the ship graphic, so that a Coastal that is set to 8.4 will actually look like it is riding deeper than one whose keel is set to 7.4? (and would you really be able to see IRL the difference between one ship riding 3 feet lower than another ship?)
Oh ye of little faith Do I look like Mr Near Enough is Good Enough? :rotfl:

Seriously no offence taken... an excellent question and one I should have answered before it was asked.

In game examples...
Keel depth at 5.9
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6023/coastalat596du.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coastalat596du.jpg)

Keel depth at 6.9 <== Default
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4108/coastalat698up.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coastalat698up.jpg)

Keel depth at 7.9
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8877/coastalat797cn.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coastalat797cn.jpg)

[Kalach]

Sounds like a great idea :up:
I haven't been playing much lately because it's just starting to feel a lot like some arcade game - spot the enemy, draw a few lines, place your crosshair on your target snd you've sunk a ship :-? .

All of your NYGM mods are sounding very promising so far :)

[Kaptan Tommy]

Well, I still enjoy the game, probably because my job only allows me about 1-2 times per week to play it. I play at about 75% realism (no manual target setting and no event camera).

While the movement (and antics...) of the convoys and escorts is sometimes laughable, it is after all, artificial intelligence. Read "artificial" to mean none. I think AI is still done with "IF", "THEN" and "ELSE" programming. The only way to get real intelligence involved is with multi-player modes where there is real intelligence in play. One player commanding the sub and at least one other player commanding a convoy. That way there is no way to tell what the 'enemy' is going to do.

I think the old adage "familiarity breeds comtempt" (which ordinarily is applied to human relationships) could just as easily be applied to players of SH3 (and any other simulations) as you become more and more familiar with the gameplay, and frustrated with its shortcomings. I too am still waiting for the 'perfect game'... :zzz:

[Marhkimov]

Oh ye of little faith Do I look like Mr Near Enough is Good Enough? :rotfl:
Oh, absolutely not!

Teddy Bar should actually be called Der Teddy "He Who Makes Mods Which Are Crazy In Nature But Push The Envelope Farther Than Anyone Could Have Possibly Imagined" Bar.

Yep, I found you a new nickname. :D

[gdogghenrikson]

While the movement (and antics...) of the convoys and escorts is sometimes laughable, it is after all, artificial intelligence. Read "artificial" to mean none. I think AI is still done with "IF", "THEN" and "ELSE" programming. The only way to get real intelligence involved is with multi-player modes where there is real intelligence in play. One player commanding the sub and at least one other player commanding a convoy. That way there is no way to tell what the 'enemy' is going to do.

you should get Improved convoys, that helps with dumb convoys

[Kaptan Tommy]

While the movement (and antics...) of the convoys and escorts is sometimes laughable, it is after all, artificial intelligence. Read "artificial" to mean none. I think AI is still done with "IF", "THEN" and "ELSE" programming. The only way to get real intelligence involved is with multi-player modes where there is real intelligence in play. One player commanding the sub and at least one other player commanding a convoy. That way there is no way to tell what the 'enemy' is going to do.

you should get Improved convoys, that helps with dumb convoys

Hmmm, something I haven't done yet - obviously. If I do that, that puts an end to such 'fun' as watching escorts shooting at each other? Thanks 'gdog', I'll give that a try. :)

I haven't installed any mods on the game I use here on my desktop. I had SUCH a problem getting this thing to work here (buying new graphics card, adding RAM, multiple re-formats), I've been hesitant to make any changes. Now, on my laptop, I've added SH3 Commander and a few others - but since getting this machine to work, I haven't booted up the laptop in ages. :damn:

[HEMISENT]

Teddy
When might we possibly be seeing this keel mod also, how's testing coming on the other NYGM projects? Absolutely brilliant concept as advertised so far. This will make a great addition to gameplay.

Going off on a tangent here regarding surface runners. Early war had a larger percentage of torpedo malfunctions and one of them was the eel would run close to or broach the surface.
What if:
Using SH3 commander, create a number of random folders(25 or 30)
using TT's mini tweaker (I think Torpedo_sim is the right file) change the G7a & g7e's depth to 1 or .5(default is 4) place this modified torpedo_sim file into only one of the random folders and place the defaults in the rest. If I'm not mistaken you now have a 1 in 25 or 30 chance of having a surface runner. I think this can be set so that the problem ends at a set date. Have to check for sure with Jscones but I think it's possible.

I'm just starting to get into the dates and random folders of Commander and my mind is working overtime. Sorry if I sent the thread a bit sideways.

[HEMISENT]

Turns out I was mistaken- I thought there was a way to perhaps set the max depth also but only min depth setting is possible. If there were a line controlling max run depth then that might be set at very shallow to give a surface running effect.
Back to the drawing boards

[Der Teddy Bar]

Teddy
When might we possibly be seeing this keel mod also, how's testing coming on the other NYGM projects? Absolutely brilliant concept as advertised so far. This will make a great addition to gameplay.
Beta testing is coming along slowly, but surely. However it is taking longer than expected.

The NYGM Ship Damage Mod works and works well, has since November last year. When I say works well, it works as advertised but as is to be expected needed/needs changes, will for the first 6 months at least. One of the testing issues is that a change for one ship can effect up to 10 others. The effect is not equal on each ship. That is, if I have 1 ship sinking when the bow compartment is set to a value of 8, another ship may need an external view to actually see the effect.

The NYGM Ship Damage Mod will be a very big shock even for those who must have this mod. Especially after playing the default games BOOM format for so long. It was for me and it was/is my Mod.

Because of this I wish to try and ensure that when the NYGM Ship Damage Mod is released that the player will get the best experience within the constraints that the testing allows. Testing is an issue due to a lack of qualified beta testers.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Oh, I forgot to mention, the NYGM Draft Mod is the NYGM Ship Damage & Draft Mod as to make two or more copies is too much work.

As it is, there will be 1800+ files to be renamed and then modified along with probably another several hundred files done so as to allow modification via TimeTravellers tools etc

There is one annoying aspect of this mod that I discovered last night, in that the recognition manual actually takes everything in the sea directory and inserts it into itself. So you end up with 5-6 of each in the manual.

Good thing this is only for merchants.

[hunter301]

Der Teddy Bar Wrote:
Realative bearing... aim periscope at where you want the ship to be when you shoot, click the tick twice.


I didn't know you could do this on the notepad. Am I missing something? I thought all it could do was range, AOB and speed.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Der Teddy Bar Wrote:
Realative bearing... aim periscope at where you want the ship to be when you shoot, click the tick twice.


I didn't know you could do this on the notepad. Am I missing something? I thought all it could do was range, AOB and speed.
The notepad itself does not have a relative bearing input. However, when ever you click the tick (twice) on the notepad it will update the realative bearing to where the scope is pointing.

Best way to see it is to go full manual, put in a speed of say 5. Go to the scope or UZO and enter a AOB of 90 into the notepad, and nothing else, tick twice. You will notice that the number under the notepad has gone to 10, i.e. this will be the bearing that the torpedo will travel along when it is launched at a relative bearing of 0 for a target with a AOB 90 and travelling at 5 knots.

Go to the F6 screen and note the green line indicating the torpedo will travel is at 10 degrees .

Now go back to the scope or UZO and go to a relative bearing of 340, now click the notepad twice (just a habit, a good one). You will notice that the number under the notepad has gone to 347, i.e. this will be the bearing that the torpedo will travel along when it is launched at a relative bearing of 340 for a target with a AOB of 90 and travelling at 5 knots.

Again, go to F6 to see that the green line indicating the torpedo will travel is at 347 degrees and no longer at 10.

This makes it easy to shoot at multiple ships.

Hope that that clarifies what I was speaking about.

[Gargoyle]

How you realism guys manage to calculate, speed, AoB and distance to a target whilst
"charging in like a bull" and actually hittin anythin is beyond me :o

Unless i remain at a constant course and not movin, theres no way ill be able to calculate the above mentioned data :cry:

nappy


The 1 truly important thing you must do is give yourself time to work out the solution. If that means being at a dead stop or running parallel, then do it. Here's my method that works while stopped or moving. Just give yourself time to get a solution entered.

Visually making readings-
What you will do: You will create a line on the nav map that is the ship's course. From this line you will pick a place where you will want to launch. Do your math for that point, then (if your math is correct) fire when the target reaches that point.

Steps (see pic for hypothetical scenario)
1. Take range and bearing readings every min or 2.
2. After each reading, plot them on the nav map with the marker tool. (you can also measure the distance covered by the intervals to give you it's speed)
3. Then use the ruler tool to construct a line that passes through all the marks. This is the ship's path.
4. After you've decided at what bearing you are going to fire at (give yourself enough time to get the data). Measure the distance from ownship to the intended point on the ship's "path line" for the range to input to the TDC.
5. measure the angle between ownship and the "path line". This is the AOB.
6. double check TDC entries are correct.
7. launch when target reaches that bearing (345deg in pic)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Gargy3976/SH3/SH3Img12-1-2006_20.jpg

[Rosencrantz]

Keep going on that, Teddy! Really, this game is not too realistic... for a long time! :up: