Erich Topp died 27/12/2005

[UglyMowgli]

Erich Topp died 27.12.2005. One of the last surviving holders of Knight´s Cross with Oakleaves and Swords.

Erich Topp began his naval career in April 1934. He served six months on the light cruiser Karlsruhe before joining the U-boat force in October 1937. A year later he became watch officer on U-46. After four patrols with U-46, Topp took over command of U-57. With this boat he sank six ships for a total of 36,862 tons. U-57 sank on 3 September, 1940 after an accident with the Norwegian ship Rona.
Topp was then given command of the VIIC boat U-552, the famous "Red Devil Boat". Topp scored most of his successes in the North Atlantic against convoys and off the North American coast. On his very successful eighth patrol in March/April 1942, he sank eight ships for a total of 45,731 tons.

[CCIP]

:(

Rest in peace, Erich. A legend of the sea, to be sure, is with us no more. On the other hand, after such a long and remarkable life, it's hard to call this a tragedy. But we mustn't forget this fading generation of veterans, of whom we just lost another.

http://uboat.net/men/topp.htm

[UglyMowgli]

I just read the uboat.net forum but his death is not confirmed, announced but not yet confirmed.
sorry if it is a false news .

[CCIP]

Ah, there's hope yet. In any case, my thoughts with him & family!

[Fish]

Ah, there's hope yet. In any case, my thoughts with him & family!

My thoughts are more with the victims of his deeds. Those where on my side.

[Camaero]

Always hate seeing veterans from any war pass on. Our link to the past slowly shrinks away.

:down:

[CCIP]

Ah, there's hope yet. In any case, my thoughts with him & family!

My thoughts are more with the victims of his deeds. Those where on my side.

It would be rude of me not to consider them, of course, but I think it's also rude towards him to not consider the nature of war and military values.

Besides, 'our side' and 'his deeds' are quite relative. Topp was a high-ranking Bundesmarine officer and an important representative in NATO forces after the war and during the Cold War. Which, ironically, for my ancestors would also be the 'other side', but I digress.

I don't think there's any doubt that Topp was an honorable man and an officer with a sense of duty. I think it's rude to differentiate sides when it comes to remembering veterans like this. 'My side' or 'their side' - they're all part of our collective memory.

[Camaero]

In my opinion a solder is a solder and all soldiers are heroes. They may be your hated enemy at one point, but when the war is over they are to be respected and you should understand that they were fighting for their country and fighting most of all just to stay alive as your own soldiers were.

This stands even more so whenever there is a draft in effect.

Anyway, I am proud of all our young American boys who went over there and gave their best. I also very much respect the German soldiers and everyone else who fought in the war.

I read Topp's short bio on Uboat.net and it very much seems he was a good man and contributed a lot to society after the war.

That's all I have to say about that!

[TteFAboB]

My thoughts are more with the victims of his deeds. Those where on my side.

That's so fishy. :rotfl:

[Fish]

I also very much respect the German soldiers and everyone else who fought in the war.

That's all I have to say about that!

Hmm... :hmm:
During that war, I lived in occupied country, know about round-ups, torturing etcetera. I think, I am biassed.

[Camaero]

I am not talking of the murderers and torturers. Especially the SS and any of the fanatical Nazis. They were not soldiers but murderers and I can not respect any of them. There is a clear difference between being stuck in a war and trying to survive and fight for your country and being one of the above.

I am currently reading Rising 44 and it gives a good perspective on this. I am sure I don't need to tell anyone about the atrocities committed just in Warsaw, and the rest of Poland, but the actions of most of the Germans there are just so unforgivable, unforgivable isn't a strong enough word. I don't even feel merited to talk about it because I couldn't possibly understand what it was like.

So maybe I should elaborate better, a soldier is a soldier and a murderer is a murderer. One I can respect and the other should not be given any pity. Yes, there is a difference.

[Fish]

I am not talking of the murderers and torturers. Especially the SS and any of the fanatical Nazis. They were not soldiers but murderers and I can not respect any of them. There is a clear difference between being stuck in a war and trying to survive and fight for your country and being one of the above.

I am currently reading Rising 44 and it gives a good perspective on this. I am sure I don't need to tell anyone about the atrocities committed just in Warsaw, and the rest of Poland, but the actions of most of the Germans there are just so unforgivable, unforgivable isn't a strong enough word. I don't even feel merited to talk about it because I couldn't possibly understand what it was like.

So maybe I should elaborate better, a soldier is a soldier and a murderer is a murderer. One I can respect and the other should not be given any pity. Yes, there is a difference.
Ok, I see we are talking the same language.

[bradclark1]

In my opinion a solder is a solder and all soldiers are heroes. They may be your hated enemy at one point, but when the war is over they are to be respected and you should understand that they were fighting for their country and fighting most of all just to stay alive as your own soldiers were.


Spot on!

[drEaPer]

And please dont forget: Nazis used their enourmous propaganda machine. There was no internet to get an independent picture of things. The news were manipulated etc etc
German soldieres were given a despicable and abhorrent picture of the enemies, fighting for wrong believes made up by insane ppl taking advantage of the countries depression resutling from the times of Weimarer Republik.

Whats really noteworthy and scary, is the realization that humans are capable of doing such things, and it could happen anywhere, if wrong believes are seed in ppls minds. We are not as free as we think we are, humans are easily influenced and conditioned. Thats where the humanities start.

[Kapitan]

i thought you ment the eric topp that posted on the forums :o

[Oberon]

Salute to Konteradmiral Erich Topp.

Lets not forget that as well as being a Uboat ace, he was also a staff member of the military committee of NATO, and a fisherman too it would seem.

As for remembering his victims, yes, that too...although it goes both ways.

That's war...sadly.

[UglyMowgli]

this official but is not published in the press:

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

I just got the message from one of the Admiral’s son that he indeed passed away on Dec. 26th .
He will be now on his last patrol meeting his beloved Pullox, Bertel Endrass and great friend Teddy Suhren when St. Peter will direct him “to a special heaven for U-boat commanders where the can continue their old ways of singing, drinking, and merrymaking”.

His funeral will take place on Jan. 6th 2006.

Sincerely Yours
Volker Erich Kummrow

http://www.uboat.net/forum/read.php?f=3&i=42567&t=42522

[Oberon]

http://www.weltkrieg.nm.ru/photo/colour/1/261.jpg

Erich Topp

2nd July 1914 - 26th December 2005

[UglyMowgli]

i thought you ment the eric topp that posted on the forums :o

He die the 26 th and post the 27th I think not the same person :hmm: and you?

[Kapitan]

oopppsss lol

he died on the same day as my grand father only my grandfather died about 10 years ago

[CCIP]

Erich Topp was also the most successful submarine commander alive until that day. The title now passes on to Georg Lassen, who is now 90 years old.

[U-552Erich-Topp]

:( The passing of U-boat ace Erich Topp has been confirmed. Check Uboat.net for the latest information. My condolences to his family and friends.

[gdogghenrikson]

In my opinion a solder is a solder and all soldiers are heroes. They may be your hated enemy at one point, but when the war is over they are to be respected and you should understand that they were fighting for their country and fighting most of all just to stay alive as your own soldiers were.

This stands even more so whenever there is a draft in effect.

Anyway, I am proud of all our young American boys who went over there and gave their best. I also very much respect the German soldiers and everyone else who fought in the war.

I read Topp's short bio on Uboat.net and it very much seems he was a good man and contributed a lot to society after the war.

That's all I have to say about that!

well put..yup I first heard about Enrich Topp when I played SH2 and watched the interviews with Enrich

[wetgoat]

All I can say, Salute !!!!

[The Bandit]

Well this is truly sad news. I can remember seeing Topp interviewed on some history programs I have seen (one that looked at USS Silversides and U-552) and I also remember his interview that came with SHII. This year I had the opportunity to meet some men who were Topp's opponents in the battle of the atlantic, and it saddens me to think that they are a dwindling number. Lest we forget

[Marhkimov]

Sorry, not knowing any history about Erich Topp, can I ask a question?

What happened to him immediately after the war? In general, what happened to all other surviving U-boat captains? Did they get tried as war criminals?

And in general, what happened to German officers and soldiers? Were they tried?


I'm just curious to know... :hmm:

[TLAM Strike]

Sorry, not knowing any history about Erich Topp, can I ask a question?

What happened to him immediately after the war? In general, what happened to all other surviving U-boat captains? Did they get tried as war criminals?

And in general, what happened to German officers and soldiers? Were they tried?


I'm just curious to know... :hmm: IIRC only one U-Boat commander was tried for war crimes (the one who machine guned people in the water from some Greek Merchant). And of course Donitz was sentinced to 10 years in prison for wadging a war of aggression.

You might want to read these articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsequent_Nuremberg_Trials
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

[CCIP]

Most spent a few years as prisoners, quite a few ended up in Canada. They were generally treated quite well, and I believe all but the mentioned one who was tried and hanged along with his WO for shooting at ship survivors were released in the late 40's without any charges against them.

[Pax Melmacia]

Donitz was sentinced to 10 years in prison for wadging a war of aggression.

That and the fact that he became Hitler's successor after the Fuhrer killed himself. (And only because everyone else had bailed)

[Pax Melmacia]

I, too, am from a country that experienced brutal wartime occupation. My grandfather was beaten up by the Japanese secret police and my father had to go in hiding after our surrender bec. the enemy had heard that he was one of the guards that watched over interned Japanese civilians after Pearl Harbor.

Ironically, the ones who had warned him to hide were Japanese friends from before the war.

I think the only thing 'wrong' with Erich Topp's and other's wartime activities was that he was on the losing side.

I'm pretty sure that aside from the uniforms and language, a U-Boat crew wasn't much different from a USN sub one.

[gdogghenrikson]

I think the only thing 'wrong' with Erich Topp's and other's wartime activities was that he was on the losing side.
why is "wrong" to serve your country? :hmm:

[Abraham]

think the only thing 'wrong' with Erich Topp's and other's wartime activities was that he was on the losing side.
The tragedy for Germans, Axis forces in general, was not as much as being on the losing side as well as being on the morally wrong side.
Some brave and honorable Germans - and Japanese - served their country and in doing so supported dictators and helped prolong a war that daily costed the lives of hundreds if not thousands innocents in camps and prisons, not to mention it prolonged the misery of war for the citizens of the warring nations themselves ...
To serve your country - which is normaly an honorable thing to do - with that result is a personal tragedy.

[Marhkimov]

A soldier's responsibility is not to worry about morals, or justice, or right, or wrong. A soldier's only concern is to serve his country. No soldier is ever wrong in doing so.... But...

The honroable soldier will never fire upon civilians.

The honorable soldier will never perform inhumane surgeries.

The honorable soldier will never betray his country.


So Erich Topp may have ended up on the wrong/losing side, but he lived the life of an honorable soldier, and he could not have been more right in doing so.

[Abraham]

Speaking in general; looking back at your life as a soldier and contemplating that the harder you fought, the longer misery lasted for many others, must be a tragedy.
Speaking of Erich Topp in particular, he did less tragic and more positive things after the war.

[Marhkimov]

Speaking in general; looking back at your life as a soldier and contemplating that the harder you fought, the longer misery lasted for many others, must be a tragedy.
A tragedy indeed....

[Oyashio]

Heil Erich!

[The Avon Lady]

Just sickening, most of this thread.

[Marhkimov]

Just sickening, most of this thread.
What? :huh:

It is sickening to pay tribute to a fallen soldier? Or is it sickening to talk about the tragedies of war?

You might want to explain yourself, because quite frankly this was not the kind of response that I expected from The Avon Lady...

[bradclark1]

Just sickening, most of this thread.
What? :huh:

It is sickening to pay tribute to a fallen soldier? Or is it sickening to talk about the tragedies of war?

You might want to explain yourself, because quite frankly this was not the kind of response that I expected from The Avon Lady...

I believe AL is against anything German during the WW2 timeframe.

[CCIP]

I do think she's spoken out against the post-war attempts to 'clean up' the image of the German armed forces, which I do agree with. But trying to throw mud back over them isn't reasonable, either. One needs to consider all sides. One needs to consider people individually and draw conclusions then.

Operating from the Jewish perspective doesn't justify the attitude. I lost more people of my combined ethnic background in the war than probably anyone else here (being of mixed Russian-German-Finnish-Ukranian-Jewish-Gypsy-everything else origin). My ancestors died horrible deaths at the hands of German and Finnish forces; fighting their not-so-distant cousins.

But through all that - studying U-boat history in the past year, I'm yet to find a reason I have to give Erich Topp's memory anything but a lot of respect.

[Marhkimov]

The war has long been OVER! And a MAN named Erich Topp has died! I along with many others choose to pay tribute to his memory by placing a bushel of roses on it... Regardless of his German decent, and regardless of the many terrible things that the Germans did.

Avon Lady, please don't disrespect our goodwill intentions. We just want Erich Topp, our fellow human being, to rest in peace.

[U-552Erich-Topp]

Avon Lady, what do you mean by just sickening, most of this thread?????????????????????

[martes86]

Not every soldier or officer in Germany executed war crimes during the war. Although the Germans were seen as the "bad guys", the only real "bad guys" were those who started a war just for their own imperialist and racist interests. The subordinates are not the ones to blame, they just obbeyed orders, otherwise, they would be seen forever as traitors.
Of course, the only criminals that get court-martialed or trialed are the ones who were in the losing side. Quite unfair, though.

[gdogghenrikson]

A soldier's responsibility is not to worry about morals, or justice, or right, or wrong. A soldier's only concern is to serve his country. No soldier is ever wrong in doing so.... But...

The honroable soldier will never fire upon civilians.

The honorable soldier will never perform inhumane surgeries.

The honorable soldier will never betray his country.


So Erich Topp may have ended up on the wrong/losing side, but he lived the life of an honorable soldier, and he could not have been more right in doing so.

I totally agree with you :up:

[bradclark1]

Most spent a few years as prisoners, quite a few ended up in Canada. They were generally treated quite well, and I believe all but the mentioned one who was tried and hanged along with his WO for shooting at ship survivors were released in the late 40's without any charges against them.

Shoot a few survivors you get hung.
Shoot hundreds and you get the Medal of Honor.
Thats the difference between winning and losing.
Funny how history works.

[Marhkimov]

Yeah, war sucks. EVERYONE loses, if you ask me...

But Erich Topp is dead, and there's no reason for anyone to feel the need to shame or deny his existence. S!

[Iceman]

Just as you excersise your rights to pay some homage to this person I tend to agree with AL...did this man turn sides in mid war?..If not then he is/was a murdering bushwacker on the side of Satan....those cool black uniforms and medals of so called honor only represent to me how many murders in cold blood he commited. Another murderer is finally gone...good ridance.Why so amazed....anyone to me even liking/wanting to associate themselves with a U-Boat captains to me is a dirtbag sorry that's my opinion.They were vermin and are vermin....that is an opinion of an American who lives by hundreds of men and women who fought against these people.A side note frankly U-Boat.net tries to glorify German u-boat commanders....this is sickening to me.They were no heros they were murders...you can claim only for historical purposes only but and yes whoever forgets the past is doomed to repeat it...but let's not sugar coat it....call them what they were....they were warmongin murders.

Some quotes from you guys...I think the only thing 'wrong' with Erich Topp's and other's wartime activities was that he was on the losing side.

Losing Side?...how about the wrong side.The aggressive side.The evil side.

So Erich Topp may have ended up on the wrong/losing side, but he lived the life of an honorable soldier, and he could not have been more right in doing so.

That is a cop out....everyone has a choice always.

The passing of U-boat ace Erich Topp has been confirmed. Check Uboat.net for the latest information. My condolences to his family and friends.

My condolences to the millions murdered by the regime this man was a "Willing" part of.

Heil Erich!
Does that explain it?

No?

It is sickening to pay tribute to a fallen soldier? Or is it sickening to talk about the tragedies of war?
It's sickening to see you guys glorify a man who was a Killer.Continue on in your fantasy land of glorifed German U-boat commanders....

[CCIP]

Now this particular view sickens me, I'm sorry.

Although I'm not surprised.

Have you ever tried to put yourself in anyone else's shoes? "Resist the temptation of satan", huh? What would you do if you were a German man, raised in proud military tradition, when your country went to war? Sit by idly? Switch sides when your propaganda is telling you that you're winning the war (just like your country's propaganda is telling you "we're winning the Iraq war")? Dishonor your family and put everyone under threat? For what?

Would not a thought cross your mind when "God's side" of the war is bombing the bejesus out of your country that oh... maybe I should go and help them bomb down my country?

You Iceman, and you AL, both have very strong ideas of your own country - unlike me, for example. You both seem to have some rather strong right-wing ideas - certainly unlike me. You both seem to support military actions often taken by your countries - unlike me, for example. The fact that you fail to see how, in the context of his time, this man went to fight for his and was right as an individual to do that - to me, shows a narrow mindset. I'm sorry.

From my perspective - I think it's safe to say that anyone would rather the Germans realized they were wrong, brought down Hitler, and halted the war - maybe before it started even. But does that not sound ridiculous to you? Do you really think that would have happened? No. It takes an idiot to assume that, when it had already began, when the Germans were at the gates of Moscow, when Britain looked all but finished (or assumed so by the propaganda), the war would have just inexplicably stopped because the Germans suddenly gasped and realized "omg were satan guys lol". Or a man named Erich Topp would be doing a good thing by defecting to the other side or something.

Oh, wait. U-552, the "Devil Boat". The man is surely an agent of Satan now :roll:

[CCIP]

As an add-on, what I find sickening about the point of view those two seem to be expounding is as follows:



Let's forget about Topp. He wasn't human. He was under a swastika, and they wanted to kill all jews. They're not human.

But let's forget about the jews. They weren't human either. Hitler said so. They wanted to steal our women. And now they're at the Arabs' throats.

Let's forget about those muslim guys who blow up suicide bombs under crescent banners. They're not human. They want to kill the jews. And the americans.

Let's forget about Ivanov. He's not human. He served as a conscript in Afghanistan, and his country was out to kill freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And rob eastern europe.

Let's forget about Smith. Smith wanted to kill Ivanov and his country. Smith is not human. Smith also wants to kill the muslim guys and take away their four wives, and draw their prophet. He's definitely not human.



And that, my friends, is why we still have wars. Because to some people, Topp, Smith and Ivanov - flesh and blood through and through - are just not human.

[Iceman]

From the man who sports a U-177 in his sig you do not surprise me.Maybe I'll change my sig " A-Bomb xplosion from the Enola Gay"...Yea....

"The nuclear bombing of Hiroshima killed approximately 140,000 people and injured approximately 90,000."

Yea that should be a great sig which if it offends anyone...to hell with them huh?

Yea...what would be wrong with that?...according to your logic not a thing.

Or if someone sports "1,177 men killed on USS Arizona"....Yea that is ok huh?

CCIP I'll meet ya anytime anywhere ..neighbor.

[bradclark1]

Iceman,
What do you think about Mush Morton and General George Custer?
Or Wernher Von Braun the daddy of American space flight?
Because of what they did does it make America evil? Your way of thinking it does because one is of the other.

[CCIP]

I don't understand what my sig has to do with anything. For one, the U-177 in my case bears no real relation to the actual U-177, which wasn't even the same type of boat. My U-177 is a 'plot device', so to say, in a game and a story which unfolded for me in Wolves at War for a period of a good 8 months, and in the space of many hours of play and over 1000 pages of notes. Which I thoroughly enjoyed. Enough to draw me a nice boat with pencil. How a pencil boat killed any number of people is beyond me.

I must also note that, unlike some people, I have a solid concept of reality which I don't mix with games more than is reasonable. And even more so - I have a sense of respect at the same time as a sense of humor. And I'll laugh at the Enola Gay because it has a stupid name all I want.

I'll also laugh at the fact that Enola Gay has nothing to do with this thread :roll:

[Gizzmoe]

A side note frankly U-Boat.net tries to glorify German u-boat commanders....this is sickening to me.They were no heros they were murders...

I totally agree, they were no heroes! I also doubt that the vast majority of them would ever see themselves as heroes. It was a ****ty time, not something they would ever want to experience again! Many of them were just soldiers, not real murders. They killed people. They "had to" kill people, it was their job, and many of them were convinced that they did the right thing. I hope that every one of them understood after the war that they fought for the wrong side. I am convinced that not everyone did understand this.

I´m not surprised at all that on a submarine forum like U-Boat.net and Subsim.com people more or less glorify those U-Boot Commanders. You see the same on Tank sim forums for tank aces and on Airforce/Luftwaffe forum. Each of the branches had people who´d showed excellent performance - by sinking dozens of ships, killing dozens of tanks or hundreds of aircraft. They simply did a great job, technically speaking. Enthusiasts can appreciate that. I do! But that does NOT necessarily mean that people think that those soldiers did the right thing or fought for the right side.

[CCIP]

They simply did a great job, technically speaking. Enthusiasts can appreciate that. I do! But that does NOT necessarily mean that people think that those soliders did the right thing or fought for the right side.

Precisely.

I also respect them as people, but it doesn't mean I approve of their deeds either. I admire their feats. I admire their personal qualities and courage. I admire them as real, individual people.I don't admire the cause they were ultimately supporting.

Let's face it, someone like Wolfgang Luth was a great submarine commander and military officer. He was a great leader of men. But he was also a big-time Nazi.

If I were to unexpectedly meet him in a dark alley in 1944, I would no doubt have to shoot him, and do so without regret. But I don't want to go to websites like Uboat.net to read about how much I should hate a hardcore Nazi. I'm a reasonable person, I know that already and will draw my conclusions from just a mention of that. I want to read about his great feats and personal qualities. That's not glorifying him, that's learning about a person. And we all need to realize that we're all people. Until then, the mistakes of the past will continue to be repeated.

[TteFAboB]

The attack on CCIP's signature was unnecessary, why mix symbolism with it?! Hitler was all about Symbolism, CCIP's signature has nothing to do with war crimes, it is the final product of hours of hard-work, concentration, inspiration, creativity, labour, how many muscles were used, how much air he breathed, how much energy was necessary, did he used a pencil, a pen, the computer, a scanner, what was necessary for him to get a pencil? A tree farm, a lumber mill, a pencil factory, transportation by road or rail. There is so much human presence in the whole process necessary to produce that drawing that I don't understand how a son of God would choose to see evil symbolism in it. That signature is a piece of art, an art that only humans can create (no offense to monkey painters), I am an enthusiast of Submarines, yes, but also of art.

What can you create Iceman? What forms of art can you bring to the world? What divine blessings can you share with mankind? What have you done in the past decade that made the world a better place? Surely you haven't done anything remarkably great, in the sense that you are not remarkably famous, but, CCIP did his small part, CCIP used his LIFE to bring a drawing to the world and he also decided to share it with all of us, evil and good alike.

Don't you think I say this to defend CCIP, I don't, I could care-less about what you think of his signature, really, and he can probably defend himself, I say this to defend myself, to defend my freedom to put U-boat drawings on my signatures, CCIP's world would be very different from mine, true, he would like to live in a neo-rational-socialist world, but from what I gather his world would be more or less civilized (which is quite the contrary to what actually happens in rational-socialist experiements), now your world, Iceman, I fear. In your world, I am not sure if I would have the freedom to live with my religious beliefs, I fear I could be considered a heretic if I was not good enough, like Goebbels rated who was Jew and who wasn't, and I would end up burned if my exorcising process failed.

If Iceman declared war on Hell, I might ally with the devil.

[drEaPer]

This thread turns ridicolous.

Everyone who thinks a soldiers only duty is to obey and serve, is responible for morally and ethically questionable wars. The problem is that in a totalitary regime like nazi germany or stalin russia, you dont have a choice.

I am german, I prolly learned more about the war than you, since it is my history, and let me tell you: Most of the guys fought cause they had to, if they didnt, they got shot by their own side. Thats how it happened.
Sure there were Nazis, there were supporters of the nazi ideology but most of the common men were puppets in a game, used by the führung, sent to death, sent to the inevitable.

Whoever thinks, a regular soldier had a choice doesnt know **** about WW2.
It was a gigantic mind controlling machine either making ppl believe in wrong ethnics by lying to em, or forcing em to fight by threatening and, if they resisted, eventually shooting them.

Let me add a quote from a surviving uboat man:
"We were send out there to commit suicide. Cause thats what it was: Suicide"

[Marhkimov]

What the hell?

Who has the right to call the Germans evil? They're only "evil" because they lost the war. Had the Germans won WWII, then the real criminals would be Churchill and Truman! General Eisenhower and Chuck Yeager would be the evil ones! Had the Germans won, we would all be flinging our arms at Hitler and touting those Godly U-boat captains.

Then by those terms, U-boat captains simply went to war alongside their country... A country that they did not determine to be evil... A country who's only "evil-doing" was the fact that they lost the war...



Let's remind ourselves that the whole purpose of this thread was to commemorate a fallen soldier, regardless of his nationality and/or affiliation... You guys do celebrate Memorial Day, don't you? Do you pray for the likes of Gunther Prien and Erich Topp, as much as you pray for the many fallen Allied soldiers?... I hope you do...

They ALL deserve to be remembered.

[Dowly]

German and Finnish forces; fighting their not-so-distant cousins.

Sorry to hear that. :cry: My granpa lost his 3 brothers in the war and my granma´s brother never came back, nobody knows what happened to him.

And to Iceman, you said that Topp was on the evil side. Yes, it´s true, Germany did something horrible -- murdered innocent civilians.

BUT, what did USA with the 2 A-bombs? What did the Russians??

Don´t get me wrong, I´m just saying that when you call Erich Topp a killer, because he served his country, then everyone of the US troops in WWII were killers and so were the Russian troops.

[CCIP]

And if we're talking about Christian morals... what happened to "love thy enemy"?

That's a rather key principle and an irresolvable moral dilemma. And the more you grapple with it in regards to war, the more irresolvable it becomes.

The fundamental question to ask is "How does one determine one's right to kill a person?" - assuming someone indeed has that right. There are easy answers to this, and all of them come down to simply assigning human/subhuman/superhuman labels to people - an 'evil' person is not really human. But once you start really thinking into it, none such answers are satisfactory from a rational perspective.

But real soldiers have to deal with it somehow. For those whose job it is to kill, this irresolvable question is definitely the sharpest. And those who live around death for long enough usually get an inkling of just how human everyone is. Because we're even more equal in death, and a tiny bullet weighing just a few grams is equally deadly to John, Ivan, Erich as it is to the Hitlers and Nietzsches among us. Whatever happens after death doesn't matter here.

Saying that "noone has a right to kill" solves nothing. Saying that "some people have a right to kill" creates a huge and completely unreasonable problem. Meanwhile, the fact will remain that people are getting killed in the world - all the time. And we look on, either realizing or suppressing the undeniable fact that our own eventual time is not getting any farther away from us.

Everyone is a person. I'm a person, you're a person, Erich Topp was a person. You're not any better than me. You're certainly not any better than Erich Topp. Noone has a right to claim that without lowering themselves.... wait, isn't that another famous religious parable, hmm? :hmm:

[Marhkimov]

"love thy enemy"
I wholeheartedly agree with this concept.

If anything, the more you hate Erich Topp, then the more he deserves your endearing love and compassion.

[U-552Erich-Topp]

This thread has become way out of line. I hope admin can fix it.

[Marhkimov]

Yes, please. Let's bring it back to condolences...

[Happy Times]

Il just say that if someone says that Finnish veterans(including Jews and Socialists) were murderers he doesnt have any knowledge of history. Plus il get pissed and tare heads of with my bare hands :P

[Torplexed]

Like Erich Topp, I think this thread needs to rest in peace. It's not like any minds are gonna be changed at this late date.

[Marhkimov]

But hey, you have to admit that Erich Topp did bring up quite an interesting discussion... The moral dilemmas of war and post-war wrap-up.

He's still reaching out from beyond his grave and altering all of our lives, whether we want to admit to it or not.

[joea]

What the hell?

They're only "evil" because they lost the war.

Don't agree with that, however don't believe Germany and the Axis were "evil" ... but it was nothing to do with losing but rather in commiting aggresion and genocide. Every country has been guilty of that at some time or the other. "Winning" or "losing" has nothing to do with right or wrong.

[Dowly]

Il just say that if someone says that Finnish veterans(including Jews and Socialists) were murderers he doesnt have any knowledge of history. Plus il get pissed and tare heads of with my bare hands :P

Totally agree with you. And to get it right to everyone of you; Finland and Germany were not allies, Finland made pack with Germany, so they would send us weapons to counter the Russian, who tried to capture our land. (With 10000000000000 soldiers and still they failed. :rotfl: )


That´s my last offtopic post.


RIP Erich Topp :cry:

[Waldmensch]

Very bad information.

Mein Beileid an seine Familie und seine Freunde.
Ruhe in Frieden

[I-25]

:cry: its so sad that were losing are links to the past like this but well... thats the way it is.

my deepest condolences to his family

[Konovalov]

Just sickening, most of this thread.
What? :huh:

It is sickening to pay tribute to a fallen soldier? Or is it sickening to talk about the tragedies of war?

You might want to explain yourself, because quite frankly this was not the kind of response that I expected from The Avon Lady...

Any chance of a clarification or explanation of your statement? A few people here have asked for that. It might clear up some confusion and/or speculation on your viewpoint.

CCIP I'll meet ya anytime anywhere ..neighbor.

Relax Iceman. Perhaps more substance and less confrontation might help.

[joea]

Anyway, just realised I said my condolences on the other thread but not here. So RIP Erich and my sympathys to his family. I recall his interview on SH2, he said "I was never afraid." Amazing gent.

[Iceman]

What would you do if you were a German man, raised in proud military tradition, when your country went to war? Sit by idly? Switch sides when your propaganda is telling you that you're winning the war (just like your country's propaganda is telling you "we're winning the Iraq war")? Dishonor your family and put everyone under threat? For what?

Would not a thought cross your mind when "God's side" of the war is bombing the bejesus out of your country that oh... maybe I should go and help them bomb down my country?


CCIP The Day my country sends hundreds of thousands of people to death camps then yea...I will be the first to fight against this...ya gotta grow a backbone or be a jellyfish and squirm away with your life such as it will be and live with yourself.

My self I will take a stand and say what is right...he didn't have a choice?...yea he did...they all did.

Death before Dishonor.....Stand up for what's right...even unto Death.I know it is hard...it is always hard to do the right thing or even know but ya can't give into the jelly.
I won't disturb your thread anymore like my homage to the fallen of Dec 7 was any longer.

Heil whoever you want.

http://www.cyberallies.com/jelly.jpg

[CCIP]

Mighty words. If you're one of the few people who could make that choice, I salute you. As I salute those who did resist, though frankly, I don't think it was a smart individual decision - but a selfless and moral one.

But am I still skeptical? Yes I am. It's easy to say mighty words having lived in a relatively free country all your life. "Death before dishonor" sounds very nice. Gulag and Gestapo have, however, teach us that there are things worse than death and dishonor. Some have clearly not learned the lesson.

Frankly, I don't see what the argument is about. You seem to be intent on picking me out personally, and yet you never really address any points I've made, just throw insults and completely unreasonable claims.

Wait, and picking up on something Dowly had noted before - so, because my great-grandfather fought against Finland - which Finns see as criminal - am I supposed to be ashamed of him and not go and put flowers on his grave?

You know what? No. I'll spell it out for you: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Standing on the soapbox high and mighty, it's easy to push rhethoric. But soapbox rhethoric has no place and draws no comparison to real people who lived through real events, like Erich Topp.

[Marhkimov]

@Iceman,

60 years from now, the US people will look back and see the Iraq War for what it truly is... A BIG MISTAKE. But as for now, most people are blinded. It takes a lot of time to make these realizations.

The same can and does apply to Germany back in the 40's... They were all blinded. They "thought" that Hitler stood for good, just as we think "Bush" stands for good.

So you think that the German people could have done something about it? Sure they could have... But how much do you think the German people knew about their government? Being that it was a Fascist dictatorship, how much would they have really known? Now let me turn the tides for a minute; how much do you know about your own government? No really, how much of what they tell you do you think is true? I'd be shocked to learn iif even 1% of it is actual fact.

So once again I will ask, what more do you think the German people could have done? Spoken up only to have their families slaughtered?

Go ahead and put yourself and your own family in their shoes. What would you have done?


PS - Iceman, it is not fair to blast other individuals.

[Iceman]

You guys just don't get it do ya...?

Have you heard of the ship called the good Reuben James?
Filled with hard fighting men, of honor and of fame
She flew the stars and stripes of the land of the free
Now she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea
chorus:
Tell me what were their names,
tell me what were there names?
did you have a friend on the good reuben james?

It was there in the dark of that uncertain night
that we watched for the u-boat, and waited for the fight
the fire and the rock and the great explosions roar
and they laid the reuben james on the cold ocean floor
chorus
One hundred men went down to their dark watery grave
when that good ship went down only forty four were savrd
twas the last day of october that they saved forty four
from the cold icy water and the cold icy shore
chorus
Now there are lights in our country so bright
and in the farms and the villages their telling of the fight
Now our mighty battleships steam the bounding main
and remember the name of the good reuben james


Now these were my countrymen not the Red Devil. Bite me!

[Marhkimov]

Bite me!
Is it just me, or is it difficult to try to understand someone who wants me to bite him?

We are in a grown-up world here, and you have written one of the most childish posts I have ever seen in my life. :shifty:

[Abraham]

This thread has become way out of line. I hope admin can fix it.
I'm monitoring the thread closely and will continue to do so.
It is badly off topic and turns a bit nasty every now and then.
However, there are some valid opinions expressed as well and if everybody presses the 'preview' button before the 'submit' button I might not have to lock it, but it's gonna be a close call...

Abraham

(with moderator cap on)

[drEaPer]

Please dont close a thread that turns so interesting and philosophical!

It doesnt happen very often that people discuss such things, in an apropriate manner, and I am really positively suprised about the ppl participating.
We raise fundamental problems of war, its ethnics and justifcations.
Discussing can only open eyes. Of course, only, as long as its in an apropriate manner.


Lets keep the standard I know from subsim, and lets show that we can also politely debate sensitive topics here.

:up:



Now Iceman brought something up. Knowing whats right, and doing the right thing.
->
Saying that you would die for the right thing and oppose your country while doing so on the one hand, and actually doing it and dying while trying (and you will, trust me, there was no chance in nazi germany for any opposition, they all got hunted and killed if they dared to speak up) on the other hand, are two things that differ ALOT. They differ through a biological force that is out of question and cannot be debated: Instinct of self preservation.

Once this instinct gets to you, words mean nothing anymore - Unless...well unless you are a trained professional, mentally prepared to die for standing up and doing the right thing. And that in turn, takes alot of education, kind of spirituality and firm believes. Something very few people have.

[Konovalov]

Please dont close a thread that turns so interesting and philosophical!

It doesnt happen very often that people discuss such things, in an apropriate manner, and I am really positively suprised about the ppl participating.
We raise fundamental problems of war, its ethnics and justifcations.
Discussing can only open eyes. Of course, only, as long as its in an apropriate manner.


Lets keep the standard I know from subsim, and lets show that we can also politely debate sensitive topics here.

:up:

I agree. It would be better to issue warnings and if deemed further necessary restrict posting rights for a day or week upon those who resort to personal attacks/threats. That would then not deny the majority here a right to continue the discussion/debate on the issues in question.

[Dowly]

Wait, and picking up on something Dowly had noted before - so, because my great-grandfather fought against Finland - which Finns see as criminal - am I supposed to be ashamed of him and not go and put flowers on his grave?

Awww, dont say that! :) Russians were no criminals. We Finns just are upset to the fact that we defended our country succesfully, but still we had to give Russia the land they asked before the war.

Oh and Iceman, remember the fact that Nazis didnt advertise their deathcamps. So, it´s possible that most of the soldiers didnt even know there was such things. All they heard was rumors.

And I`m pretty sure that the Uboat men were the ones that didnt get much news. As they were on the sea most of the time.

How can you blame Erich Topp for the murders of what the SS and others did? Shame on you. :nope:

And what are you trying to proof with that "Reuben James" thing?? It was full of "hard fighting men" (=soldiers). Lets see, if you had the change to sink ship full of terrorists coming towards America intending to start a war, would you sink it? I think you would.

[Konovalov]

What would you do if you were a German man, raised in proud military tradition, when your country went to war? Sit by idly? Switch sides when your propaganda is telling you that you're winning the war (just like your country's propaganda is telling you "we're winning the Iraq war")? Dishonor your family and put everyone under threat? For what?

Would not a thought cross your mind when "God's side" of the war is bombing the bejesus out of your country that oh... maybe I should go and help them bomb down my country?


CCIP The Day my country sends hundreds of thousands of people to death camps then yea...I will be the first to fight against this...ya gotta grow a backbone or be a jellyfish and squirm away with your life such as it will be and live with yourself.

My self I will take a stand and say what is right...he didn't have a choice?...yea he did...they all did.

Death before Dishonor.....Stand up for what's right...even unto Death.I know it is hard...it is always hard to do the right thing or even know but ya can't give into the jelly.
I won't disturb your thread anymore like my homage to the fallen of Dec 7 was any longer.

Heil whoever you want.


From your comments Iceman would you then agree with this kind of viewpoint?

... if you whish to speak of the true filth that worked with the Nazi's you should remember the Jews who worked with the Nazi's to save their own skins. They were the truest cowards of the whole ordeal, save Hitler who sent boys to do what may well be below a demon.

This was from the Holocaust thread http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=43478

Were these people 'spineless cowards' who should have chosen death? Did everyone have a real choice as you said?

[Iceman]

Dead Mans Hand wrote:
... if you whish to speak of the true filth that worked with the Nazi's you should remember the Jews who worked with the Nazi's to save their own skins. They were the truest cowards of the whole ordeal, save Hitler who sent boys to do what may well be below a demon.



Konovalov...those are the worst kind.They were like a guy named Judas from a long time ago.

Death before Dishonor.

I can't believe this forum is filled with so many self preserving cowards as you all seem.

I guess thats the moment of truth huh?I also forget myself and to whom I speak and I apologize....The faith I hold teaches Death is only a "Thing" that each individual must go thru and not to be feared....I am pretty sure Islam and the Jewish faith teaches the same thing.

Death is the moment of truth....will ya run from it?


Matthew 10
[36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
[39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
[40] He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Maybe the Christian faith so many balk at really is'nt the flowery la la happy go lucky bunch of people so many of you laugh at.

It is only for the faithful, not the fearful and unbelieving.

So whan a man like Erich Topp is praised like you all have done here to me it is like laying a blessing on a demon.And I must speak...I don't fear your reprisals or care what you think of me personally I have to answer to a higher authority some day and will be asked about each moment of my life and how I spent it.

Who was Erich Topp?....to me he was a killer who sent many good men to there grave.Why so surpirsed?...Am I the only one here to stand up to speak about what is right?Such is the way of this world.Is it "Cool" that this guy was consulted about the making of a video game?....Cool.

[Sailor Steve]

I have to disagree by agreeing, Iceman. Eric Topp was a killer...but he was no murderer. If he was as bad as you say, then you must also include Mush Morton and Dick O'Kane on the list. Or was American 'Unrestricted Submarine Warfare' somehow nicer than German 'Unrestricted Submarine Warfare'? Or was Topp a villain because he fough for the 'wrong' side? Like most soldiers and sailors everywhere, he did his duty as he saw it and most likely believed in his cause-not Hitler's cause, but that of fighting for his homeland.

Buffy Ste. Marie wrote the words, and Donavan made them famous:

He's five foot two, and he's six feet four,
And he fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen;
He's been a soldier for a thousand years.

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, and Athiest, a Jane,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew;
And he knows he shouldn't kill and he knows he always will
Kill you for me, my friend, he'll kill me for you.

He's Fighting for Canada, he's fighting for France
And he's fighting for the U.S.A.
He's fighting for the Russians and he's fighting for Japan,
And he think's he'll put an end to war this way.

He's fighting for Democracy, he's fighting for the Reds,
And he says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him how could Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
And without him Ceasar would have stood alone.
He's the one who gives his body as a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
But his orders come from far away no more;
They come from here and there, and you and me, and brother can't you see
This is not the way we put an end to war?

'The Universal Soldier'-Buffy Ste. Marie

[Dowly]

Who was Erich Topp?....to me he was a killer who sent many good men to there grave.Why so surpirsed?...Am I the only one here to stand up to speak about what is right?Such is the way of this world.Is it "Cool" that this guy was consulted about the making of a video game?....Cool.

If you think that way, then US troops where killers too, and everyone who participated to the war. Why would the men Topp killed, be any better than Topp? They were all soldiers, fighting and dying for their country.

For example, have you forgotten Dresden?? Hiroshima?? Nagasaki?? Vietnam?? Stalin, who was with the allies killed alot more civilians than Germany did.

I`m not trying to glorify what Germany did in WW2, and no one should. But, dont act like an a-hole and make everyone who fought along side Germany, guilty to the holocaust.

Oh and before you say that Germany started the war without reason, I give you one word: IRAQ. Your country´s "oh-so-wise" leader has admitted, that the intelligence MIGHT (read: It was wrong, we just want the oil) have been wrong about the chemical weapons and stuff.

Sorry, if I made you other americans upset. No pun intended, just my thoughs. :roll:

[Marhkimov]

Nope: it's true. The Americans ARE a-holes. No doubt about it.

Just take me for example... :up:



@ Iceman

We're not trying to glorify anyone here. Killing is wrong, and I think we all agree with that. But you really do seem like a very religious person... So I'm wondering why you aren't able to forgive Erich Topp? I'm no Christian, but doesn't the bible teach anything about forgiveness? What about "love thy enemy?"

It would make everyone happy (including yourself) if we just forgive Erich Topp and the German nation for their crimes against humanity and put it behind us. Unless you somehow believe that US soldiers in Iraq are also murderers... In which case you need to understand that American soldiers are simply doing the job of a deeply misguided nation....

[drEaPer]

@Iceman your view is pretty religions. It cannot be shared by ppl who dont believe in something after death. Take me for example: For me death means ultimate nothing. A state of non existence. I dont believe in a supernatural power nor do I believe that morals and ethnics teached on our planet can be "right" or "wrong". They just "are".
People like me are having a hard time with the way you explain things.
To me its education, childhood etc that makes a human, that defines what he/she thinks is good and evil. Your enviroment is shaping you through your life, eventually creating a personality. If you get raised by violent parents, teaching you to take what you want and use force if necessary, you will be most likely become an *******. If you are successful by doing so, there will be no need for you to change.
Of course, if you are religious, you see those things totally different. :)
But for me, death is something to be avoided at all cost. I dont care if I get called a coward or not, because being called a coward and being alive is something I prefer over beind dead and having no way to make any use of it (since I am well, non existent anymore).

[U-552Erich-Topp]

:) It looks to me as if most of the posts are aimed at Iceman now. However it's an interesting read but WAY WAY WAY off the original topic. Maybe someone should start another thread and let the men continue their battle. Regardless, let Kapitain Erich Topp rest in peace and start another thread to carry this on.

[bradclark1]

Watch out with the name calling Iceman you might find yourself barred.

[Hottentot]

Some times I find it amusing that certain people have an urge to hate someone. It doesn't even always matter who they hate, they just want to hate for hating's sake. Then again, I also find it pretty scary.
And being a christian myself, it is disturbing that many of these people seem to share my religion. As has been asked before in the thread: what happened to that "love thy enemy" part?

This thread originally was about Erich Topp's death. I'm not sure if he would be very proud of it now, if he was able to read it. To say that he was a killer is to tell the truth. His torpedoes killed people, so he was a killer, right? Just as every average guy in any army was, because his bullets/bombs/hamsters happened to kill people. It is, how should I say, kind of inevitable in a war.
But to say that he was a cold blooded murderer sounds pretty stupid to me. I am, of course, ready to change my opinion as soon as someone shows me an account of Topp personally telling how he enjoyed every death he caused. But as long as I'm not aware of that kind of document, I will respect him as a soldier who did his duty.

[Abraham]

Welcome aboard, Hottentot!

[Marhkimov]

welcome buddy! S! :up:

[Hottentot]

Welcome aboard, Hottentot!

Thanks :D. I have been lurking around for some time, but still trying to learn the "unwritten rules" of this forum on the top of the written ones. I was actually little afraid of sending that first post. But still thanks for making me feel welcome. I'll try to be worth it.

Gee, I can't help wondering if this message was actually useful. After all, I just complained about thread being little off topic in my last post...

[Marhkimov]

We've already agreed that the thread has moved off topic. But the current topic remains loosely based upon Erich Topp... And at the very least, it is an interesting topic, don't you think?

[Hottentot]

We've already agreed that the thread has moved off topic. But the current topic remains loosely based upon Erich Topp... And at the very least, it is an interesting topic, don't you think?

If it wasn't, we probably wouldn't discuss it at all here, would we? I've got nothing against discussion going little off topic, but far too many times I have seen this kind of conversations ending up in "You are wrong", "No, you are!", "No, I'm right, you are wrong and your mother was a hamster" kind of flame fest. It would be shame to turn an interesting thread like this to simple arguing.

But who knows, so far that hasn't happened, so maybe I'm just worrying too much. And who am I to play moderator here anyway? Let's keep up the good work :) .

[joea]

Welcome Hottentot, umm do you have some kind of hamster obsession? :-j

[Hottentot]

Welcome Hottentot, umm do you have some kind of hamster obsession? :-j

What in hamster's name makes you think silly hamsterish (is that even a word?) thoughts? For hamster's sake I'm innocent like a...like a...like a little hamster! Okay, okay, I admit that this smiley :88) has something nice in it and I do admit that those little rodents are nice and all. But that doesn't mean that I didn't like bunnies or mice or rats. I'm not some hamstercentric rodent racist or anything.

Well, seriously speaking, I knew someone was going to ask. No special reason, really (and that's a serious "really"), hamsters just have been a not-all-too-original trademark of all my texts for a long time. It all began when (blah blah blah blah blah blah) and then (yada yada yada) and here we are.

[TteFAboB]

My friend had a hamster, he sneaked into his closet and he crushed his back when he opened a drawer, the hamster slowly died in pain on his hands while he cried like he never cried before.

I had a hamster too, he got sick and died at the vet.

Hamsters: good for children to have the first contact with death, I suppose, morbid fellow you are.

Can you assure me you are not gonna die anytime soon? If you do, can I at least be the one that kills you?

:arrgh!:

[StdDev]

.... but far too many times I have seen this kind of conversations ending up in "You are wrong", "No, you are!", "No, I'm right, you are wrong and your mother was a hamster" ....

And your father smelt of elderberry! :rotfl:

[Hottentot]

Can you assure me you are not gonna die anytime soon? If you do, can I at least be that kills you?

I have been registered less than a day and already someone wants to kill me. I can't decide what's more troubling: your, shall we say, personal sense of humour, or the fact that it seems to be very similar to my own.

But if you insist, I propose a fair duel. With violins preferably, but banjos will also do. And no, we can't duel with hamsters: Greenpeace would kill us both before we could even start.

On the other hand we might be little too far away of each other to arrange a duel. And frankly I like my life, so I'm not sure if I want to get rid of it just yet. Maybe you should just try to kill me virtually in some online match? But I'll have to warn you, I have never lost a game. That's mostly because being an unsocial brat I am (and preferring co-ops), I have never played against anyone. But I'm sure I will make a decent target drone to be shot down in IL2/sunk in Dangerous Waters/sniped in Flashpoint/Insert your way of killing poor little Hottentot here

StdDev: Another Battlefront resident, eh? Small internet. Too small actually. Clearly undermodelled. BFC, fix or do somefink!

[Happy Times]

I think Iceman that you could get attention from FBI or NSA if you keep this up.. :-j Im just asking were was your country when England and France fought Hitler and Finland fought alone against Stalin? Were the men in charge brave? Freedom fought against opression. Democracy against dictatorship. The situation was closest you can have good against evil, in the real world were anything isnt black or white. Later US supported Stalin in making the strongest armys in world history and conquer half of Europe. Not very Cristian to support an ateist mass murderer? I though i was right wing but your over the Topp.. :lol:

[Iceman]

Rest in Peace Erich Topp.... ya ole Red Devil!

Sniff sniff....We Love You Man.
:lurk:

Please don't call the FBI on me ....Please.I will swear allegience to the Nation of Erich....Anything but that....Noooooooooooooo!

[Oberon]

Iceman, the FBI already has a sleeper agent on your case ;)

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_sep2004/SleeperAgent.jpg

[Hottentot]

Iceman, as much as I try, I fail to figure out what are you trying to accomplish. I read your posts again and only in your first post I might have seen some kind of points that we might be able to debate about, though I'm not all too sure anymore. After that, however, you have mostly resorted on personal attacks, calling posters here dirtbags, jellys and whatever just because they happen to disagree with you.
I'll have to admit that I don't know your culture, but at least in my culture it is perfectly normal that people disagree with each other. Let the opinions argue as long as the persons remain friends. We call that debating. It includes things like making points and answering to point made by the others.
You, on the other hand, seem to like arguing more. If you have nothing to say, could you please say it somewhere else and at the very least let persons who want to pay respect to Erich Topp do it here without getting insulted? I can't speak for the others, but I'll promise that I have no intention to come to funeral of someone you respect and call him/her murderer/idiot/nasty-to-hamsters or whatever. Not because I might insult you: just because it is not polite.

[Iceman]

Hottentot ...You need to go back and carefully read my posts again...no where did I call anyone an Idiot or any thing ...they were "Statements" ...Personal Statements about a now deceased man using words like,,,,"To me"....or "seems".....If the shoe fits wear it....buddy.Stay up on the porch if ya can't take it ,the big doggs play in this forum... :)

and as you said... you are new here...Hence the "Nub" avatar lol....Welcome Aboard.

Forgive me if WWII and it's players stirs up controversy. :arrgh!:

P.S. That FBI agent looks hard at it....Hate to see that in action trying to jump a fence....LMAO :rotfl:

I am done with this particular thread...I think everyone knows now what I think about it and whatever ya think of me is your business.

[Happy Times]

But you didnt answer the questions asked from you. :-?

[Konovalov]

But you didnt answer the questions asked from you. :-?

True.

Happy Times,

Is that a Finnish Air Force Me109 in your sig?

[TteFAboB]

That's Eino Luukkanen, Finnish Ace.

[U-552Erich-Topp]

Nice picture of Eino :up: :up: :up:

[U-552Erich-Topp]

What I wouldn't do to get my hands on that real BF-109 for an hour or two of flying. :rock:

[Happy Times]

Yep. Good site for everything on modern and historical fighter aircraft and tactics. http://www.sci.fi/~fta/index.htm , http://www.sci.fi/~fta/history.htm , http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace03.htm , http://www.sci.fi/~fta/me-fin-1.htm

[Abraham]

Thanks for the interresting link, Happy Times.
:up:

[Konovalov]

What I wouldn't do to get my hands on that real BF-109 for an hour or two of flying. :rock:

Forgotten Battles with a good HOTAS and Track IR will have to do. :up:

[Happy Times]

What I wouldn't do to get my hands on that real BF-109 for an hour or two of flying. :rock:

Forgotten Battles with a good HOTAS and Track IR will have to do. :up: Ilmari Juutilainen gives some tips for IL2 in this interwiew ;) http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace01.htm and more tactics http://www.sci.fi/~fta/fintac-1.htm , i think you can use these all in IL2 and be very efficient.

[Pax Melmacia]

On what I mean about how 'wrong' it is to be on the losing side, I was speaking ironically. As the saying goes, woe to the vanquished.

Of course soldiers are killers. They're supposed to be. But they ain't all murderers.

It begs a question how the Allied soldiers (and my countrymen, for that matter) would have fared under an Axis War Crimes Tribunasl if the other side had won.

Finally, it's ironic that in this forum of my fellow sub-nuts, no one has pointed out (perhaps due to its sensitive nature) the historical notes in the old Silent Service II game manual.

I say no more, other than to invite anyone to look it up.

Rest in peace, Herr Kaleun.

[Skybird]

Remember that mail you send, Konovalov? You were right. Glad I missed this one.

[Abraham]

@ Pax Melmacia:
Woe to the vanquished all right. But suppose the Allie political and military leaders (and your countrymen) had been tried by an Axis "Warcrimes Tribunal" such a tribunal certainly would not have won much international recognision, as the Nuerenberg and Tokio trials did - with all their shortcomings.
We saw how "Volkstribunals" operated in the last year of the Third Reich.. just a farce of what Justice is ment to be.
The reason being the fact that totalitairian systems have no antenna for Justice.

[Pax Melmacia]

just a farce of what Justice is ment to be

You'll get no argument from me here.

But like another saying goes, in any conflict, the one who's right is the one who's left.

Then as now, it didn't matter whether the victor (Allies, Axis, etc.) had the moral ascendancy. The winner will always be the one who can say: I've got all the guns, so I make the rules, and there ain't a dang thing you can do about it."

Please don't misunderstand me. I abhor any sort of war atrocity. But even if the Nuremberg Trials had been wrong, who would have been in a position to protest?