Hasta la vista baby!

[Konovalov]

To borrow from Bill O'Reilly of the Fox News Network this has to be the most ridiculous item of the day:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/16/1134676432847.html

Arnie's terminated
December 16, 2005 - 11:11AM

The Arnold Schwarzenegger Football Stadium in Austria's second-largest city Graz is to be renamed as a sign of displeasure with the city's most famous son.

A majority of members on Graz City Council voted to rename the stadium after the Austrian-born governor of California approved the execution of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, according to newspaper Kleine Zeitung.

The Terminator-turned-governor was born six kilometres outside Graz in the community of Thal.

"It's getting on our nerves that we're again and again being criticised for Schwarzenegger's actions in California," said SP Vice Mayor Welter Ferk.

DPA

[Dan D]

What is the problem?
The Austrians consider Arnie to be an Austrian. No death penalty over there.

Same thing with Donald Rumsfeld. The Rumsfeld family in Germany is not amused about “Blitzkrieg boy”.

The patriach of the family, granny Rumsfeld (older ) already has said, he, who waffles like a hairdresser will have to face consequences on is next visit home. No cookies for him with ze hot chocolate.

[FERdeBOER]

Correction: is Hasta la vista. :know:

Europe has not capital death, is comprehensible the displeasure.

[Konovalov]

Correction: is Hasta la vista. :know:

Europe has not capital death, is comprehensible the displeasure.

I have corrected. Thanks for that. Japanese and Arabic aren't that helpful when it comes to Spanish. :oops:

[Abraham]

Austria tried to capitalise on the succes story of Arnold Schwarzenegger and it now faces the consequenses.
When the - then - hyper modern Amsterdam Arena football stadium was build many people suggested to call it the Johan Cruyff Stadium, but the decision was taken not to call the stadium after a living person. You never know what he may say or do later in his life which might embarras you, although I think it's unlikely that Johan Cruyff will ever promote the death penalty.
:D

[bradclark1]

think it's unlikely that Johan Cruyff will ever promote the death penalty.
Arny didn't promote the death penalty. He went through the facts and could find no reason to overrule a juries verdict.

[Skybird]

That guy was waiting for over 15 years to get killed. As if that is not penalty enough, already.

Deathpenalty is a term that is contradictory in itself. Penalty is a measurement you take to sanction and change the behavior of someone, or it is meant to make him compensate for the damage he has done. Killing him means he cannot change behavior, and it is no compensation as well. Thus death is not a penalty, but an act of simple revenge (which to me is all to often the case with executions), or a preemptive action. Next step is to burn people in order to clean their souls. I could eventually live with preemptive execution of maximum level-criminals under certain requirements: for example hindering a drug baron to control his business from inside a prison, or hindering free criminals to commit crimes in order to get the prisoner free, if he is a very dangerous criminal, or to protect the community of a highly dangerous individual of whom it is to be assumed that he would continue his dangerous deeds once he became free again. But death is no penalty. And to many death sentences have prooved to be wrong in the past. If a penalty is wrong, it turns the procedure into slaughter.

Schwarzenegger looked at it and saw that most Californians support death"penalty". He also wants to get reelected. so he decided to get that guy killed in order to increase his chances, at least not lowering them by stopping the execution. IMO, and basing on what I said above, that is an act of clear and intended murder. He "geht über Leichen" to continue his political career.

We will never know now how many youngster now will NOT be hindered by TW's example or his books to join a gang and start a criminal career - TW's books are known even in Germany to at least some professional social workers. Killing him after he had changed and influenced many young ones to keep away from gangs was the most stupid of all options. It also gives a clear message: it does not mean anything if you change yourself in prison and become a better man - community and state will let you down anyway and have their revenge: so why even try?

[Abraham]

That guy was waiting for over 15 years to get killed. As if that is not penalty enough, already.
Deathpenalty is a term that is contradictory in itself. Penalty is a measurement you take to sanction and change the behavior of someone, or it is meant to make him compensate for the damage he has done. Killing him means he cannot change behavior, and it is no compensation as well. Thus death is not a penalty, but an act of simple revenge (which to me is all to often the case with executions), or a preemptive action... And to many death sentences have prooved to be wrong in the past. If a penalty is wrong, it turns the procedure into slaughter.
That's Skybird, this is me and we agree!
:up:

[Skybird]

Lousy poetry, really! :lol:

[The Avon Lady]

That guy was waiting for over 15 years to get killed. As if that not is penalty enough, already.
I don't know. How do you measure it? And maybe both are deserved?
Deathpenalty is a term that is contradictory to itself. Penalty is a measuremnt you take to sanction and change the bahvior of someone.
What dictionary are you smokin'? :|\

pen·al·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pnl-t)
n. pl. pen·al·ties
A punishment established by law or authority for a crime or offense.
Something, especially a sum of money, required as a forfeit for an offense.
The disadvantage or painful consequences resulting from an action or condition: neglected his health and paid the penalty.
Sports.
A punishment, handicap, or loss of advantage imposed on a team or competitor for infraction of a rule.
An infraction of a rule; a foul.
Games. Points scored in contract bridge by the opponents when the declarer fails to make a bid. Often used in the plural.

Where did you get that "behavior change" is an inherent meaning of the word "penalty"? :nope:
Killing him means he cannot change behavior. Thus death is not a penalty, but a preemptive action (which I could accept under certain requirements: for example hindering a drug baron to control his business fro inside a prison, or hindering free criminals to commit crimes in order to get the prisoner free, if he is a very dangerous criminal), or an act of simple revenge. It never is a penalty.
Sematics and rhetoric.
Schwarzenegger looked at it and saw that most Califnrians support death"penatly". He also wants to get reelected. so he decided to get that guy killed in order to increase his chances. IMO, and basing on what I said above, that is an act of clear and intended murder.
He's obligated to uphold the law of the state he is governor of. If anyone cannot, let them resign.

And you are assuming that if he wasn't an elected official, he would be against the death penalty? Did he ever mention that?
We will never know how many youngster now will NOT be hindered to join a gang and start a criminal career by beeing affected by TW's example. Killing him after he had chnaged and infleunced many young ones to keep away from gangs was the most stupid of all options.
Numerous counter-thoughts all over the Net. I liked this one:

To A Young One Who Is An Apologist For A Terrorist (http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/2005/12/sometimes_its_o.html).

[Abraham]

Lousy poetry, really! :lol:
It's not the poetry but the message that was remarkable.
But you broke the magic spell; we disagree again...
:(

[Skybird]

That guy was waiting for over 15 years to get killed. As if that not is penalty enough, already.
I don't know. How do you measure it? And maybe both are deserved?
Deathpenalty is a term that is contradictory to itself. Penalty is a measuremnt you take to sanction and change the bahvior of someone.
What dictionary are you smokin'? :|\

pen·al·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pnl-t)
n. pl. pen·al·ties
A punishment established by law or authority for a crime or offense.
Something, especially a sum of money, required as a forfeit for an offense.
The disadvantage or painful consequences resulting from an action or condition: neglected his health and paid the penalty.
Sports.
A punishment, handicap, or loss of advantage imposed on a team or competitor for infraction of a rule.
An infraction of a rule; a foul.
Games. Points scored in contract bridge by the opponents when the declarer fails to make a bid. Often used in the plural.

Where did you get that "behavior change" is an inherent meaning of the word "penalty"? :nope:
Killing him means he cannot change behavior. Thus death is not a penalty, but a preemptive action (which I could accept under certain requirements: for example hindering a drug baron to control his business fro inside a prison, or hindering free criminals to commit crimes in order to get the prisoner free, if he is a very dangerous criminal), or an act of simple revenge. It never is a penalty.
Sematics and rhetoric.
Schwarzenegger looked at it and saw that most Califnrians support death"penatly". He also wants to get reelected. so he decided to get that guy killed in order to increase his chances. IMO, and basing on what I said above, that is an act of clear and intended murder.
He's obligated to uphold the law of the state he is governor of. If anyone cannot, let them resign.

And you are assuming that if he wasn't an elected official, he would be against the death penalty? Did he ever mention that?
We will never know how many youngster now will NOT be hindered to join a gang and start a criminal career by beeing affected by TW's example. Killing him after he had chnaged and infleunced many young ones to keep away from gangs was the most stupid of all options.
Numerous counter-thoughts all over the Net. I liked this one:

To A Young One Who Is An Apologist For A Terrorist (http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/2005/12/sometimes_its_o.html).

Plea for clemency: that'S how it is called. Allowing that is an act of mercy. A gift, if you want. A mercy is an act that is given although the rules read different. If it were according to the rules, then TW would have the RIGHT to see his execution beeing stopped. You talk about searching and finding a flaw in the court'S procedure and sentence. If Schwarzenegger would have found that, it would not be a mercy, but a juristical mistake.

a penalty: again, you speak bureaucratics only. the basic principle of a penalty:
Mother: "don't do that!"
Child does it.
Mother gives the child a clap (penalty): "I said don'T do that. Now stop it, or the next penalty will be worse."
Child alters it's bahvior and never do it again, to avoid the penalty.

That's also the understanding of penalty as a sanction in order to alter the subject's behavior in sociological and psychological science, and animal experimentation as well. Just think of Skinner, f.e.

I did not assume Schwarzenegger is pro or against death "penalty". Nowhere I did. I do not know his opinion, and I do not care for his opinion.

[bradclark1]

The death penalty is a tough question. Sometimes I think life without parol in an 8'x10' cell is cruel and unusual punishment and some criminals deserve it to do nothing but think why they are there. The down side of the death penalty is that some innocents die.
If I was given a choice I think I would choose death over a world 8'x10' with a bunk, toilet and sink.

[bradclark1]

Revenge or Punishment?
Aren't they the same thing?

[Abraham]

The death penalty is a tough question. Sometimes I think life without parol in an 8'x10' cell is cruel and unusual punishment and some criminals deserve it to do nothing but think why they are there. The down side of the death penalty is that some innocents die.
If I was given a choice I think I would choose death over a world 8'x10' with a bunk, toilet and sink.
You can make a choise. People on death row usually would like to make one too, but can't.

[The Avon Lady]

a penalty: again, you speak bureaucratics only. the basic principle of a penalty:
Mother: "don't do that!"
Child does it.
Mother gives the child a clap (penalty): "I said don'T do that. Now stop it, or the next penalty will be worse."
Child alters it's bahvior and never do it again, to avoid the penalty.

That's also the understanding of penalty as a sanction in order to alter the subject's behavior in sociological and psychological science, and animal experimentation as well. Just think of Skinner, f.e.
What if the lesson is not for or not just for the misbehaving child but for other children as well?

That's just one aspect of the death penalty. Think Angels with Dirty Faces (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006HBV28/qid=1134926527/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1465964-9882312?v=glance&s=dvd). :roll:

[The Avon Lady]

The death penalty is a tough question. Sometimes I think life without parol in an 8'x10' cell is cruel and unusual punishment and some criminals deserve it to do nothing but think why they are there. The down side of the death penalty is that some innocents die.
If I was given a choice I think I would choose death over a world 8'x10' with a bunk, toilet and sink.
You can make a choise. People on death row usually would like to make one too, but can't.
Nor can their vicitms, etc.

[bradclark1]

You can make a choise. People on death row usually would like to make one too, but can't.

You loose choice when you are convicted by your peers. The victim/s
had no choice either.

[Abraham]

The death penalty is a tough question. Sometimes I think life without parol in an 8'x10' cell is cruel and unusual punishment and some criminals deserve it to do nothing but think why they are there. The down side of the death penalty is that some innocents die.
If I was given a choice I think I would choose death over a world 8'x10' with a bunk, toilet and sink.
You can make a choise. People on death row usually would like to make one too, but can't.
Nor can their vicitms, etc.

The death penalty is a tough question. Sometimes I think life without parol in an 8'x10' cell is cruel and unusual punishment and some criminals deserve it to do nothing but think why they are there. The down side of the death penalty is that some innocents die.
If I was given a choice I think I would choose death over a world 8'x10' with a bunk, toilet and sink.
You can make a choise. People on death row usually would like to make one too, but can't.
You loose choice when you are convicted by your peers. The victim/s
had no choice either.
Thank you, Lady and gentleman, for proving Skybirds point - which I support - that the most appealing motive for the death penalty is pure revenge...

Next, let's discuss this weird imbalance between black and whites on death row...

Is Lady Justice (color)blind when administering capital punishment or are there some dirty, rotten residues of racism left in this capital lottery...?
Statistically, me being a white man, I guess I stand a better chance avoiding capital punishment raping and consequently killing a black woman then a black man doing the same thing to a white woman...
Even innocents (like me) stand a - be it statistically small - change of being executed for being at the wrong time at the wrong place or looking like the wrong person or meeting the wrong jury or being a wrong person but not the perpetrator...

[bradclark1]

So you think the perpetrator should have bargining rights?

Thank you, Lady and gentleman, for proving Skybirds point - which I support - that the most appealing motive for the death penalty is pure revenge...
Spending the rest of your life in an 8'x10' cell isn't revenge? And to be sticky you haven't heard me condone the death penalty. I said the convicted should not be given any choices. This is kind of a play on words but this is one of those weighty issues I can't make my mind up about.

The black and white thing. Give a guess. Are your prisons color conscious?

[mog]

You talk about searching and finding a flaw in the court'S procedure and sentence. If Schwarzenegger would have found that, it would not be a mercy, but a juristical mistake.
That's right, and if Schwarzenegger could see no problem with Williams' trial, then he must assume that Williams was guilty. In that case, the only grounds for stopping the execution would be if Williams had sufficiently reformed himself. He never admitted to the murders, therefore he never apologised, repented, or felt any remorse for them. Given this, there is no way Schwarzenegger could have granted clemency.

[August]

Next, let's discuss this weird imbalance between black and whites on death row...

Nothing imbalanced about it. The ratio reflects the percentage of capital crimes committed by various ethnic groups, not the racial makeup of the population.

I oppose the death penalty for the simple reason i think that life in a 8x10 cage is a better punishment than a relatively quick and painless death by injection.

As for Arnold, he's bound to uphold the law of his state. He can't overturn a courts sentence without a valid reason.

[Abraham]

To all:
Holland is far from perfect and Dutch prisons are pretty colored.

My cynicism towards the death penalty in the U.S. (and elsewhere) is based on a number of recent (Dutch) cases in which convicted "murderers" had to be set free after years in prison because a flawed proces of police investigation (they are only humans), presenting evidence to court by prosecutors (they are only humans) and decision making by judges (they are only humans). For your information: the Dutch legal system does not know trial by jury!.
Furthermore I've read an alarming psychological Dutch case-study ("Dubious Cases, the psychology of criminal evidence") about the subject.

As soon as there seems to be some evidence often the prosecutor decides to throw the whole weight of the prosecution after it to reach a conviction. Any doubts raised - or even counter evidence found - after that decision are considered mentally disturbing and sometimes lead to a stubborn negation of fresh evidence and a suppression of creative thinking of the decision makers. Fresh thoughts imply the admission that an earlier decision may have been flauwed...

Often all attention of a faulty court decision is focused upon somebody innocent having been in jail (or executed). At least as dangerous for the society is the fact that the real culprit of a serious crime is still walking around and not seldom commits another crime.

The disturbing truth is that there is no foolproof way of finding the truth in criminal cases, and since death penalty is by definition final any later found miscarriage of justice can't be redressed.
Although I regard the US legal system as one that gives better legal protection to suspects than many other western systems, including the Dutch (at least when you have a competent and motivated lawyer), miscarriaged of Justice have happened in capital punishment cases and are bound to happen in the future.
Only that should be enough to stop this retarded form of revenge.
:down:

[Bort]

The death penalty is so politically charged, I can understand why it was expedient for AHHNOHLD to send TW to the death chamber, though that certainly doesn't mean that I support it, or that I would have done the same in his position. I once supported the death penalty, but what caused me to be for abolition was the circumstances in here in Illinois (where 12 people had been executed, and 13 had been found innocent and freed from death row). When George Ryan, the Republican governor of Illinois commuted the sentences of all 167 prisoners on death row in 2000 to life without parole. I was overjoyed by this move, but I was also saddened that Ryan was only able to make do the right thing because his political career was over, he was being invesigated for fraud by the FBI (he is now on trial) and therefore he no longer had to worry about his angry political base. Too bad fear of reprisal renders most politicians spineless, even when the necessary action seems so obvious. I still really won't be satisfied with the whole issue until my state and my country are free of the anachronistic practice of the death penalty.

[The Avon Lady]

The death penalty is a tough question. Sometimes I think life without parol in an 8'x10' cell is cruel and unusual punishment and some criminals deserve it to do nothing but think why they are there. The down side of the death penalty is that some innocents die.
If I was given a choice I think I would choose death over a world 8'x10' with a bunk, toilet and sink.
You can make a choise. People on death row usually would like to make one too, but can't.
Nor can their vicitms, etc.

The death penalty is a tough question. Sometimes I think life without parol in an 8'x10' cell is cruel and unusual punishment and some criminals deserve it to do nothing but think why they are there. The down side of the death penalty is that some innocents die.
If I was given a choice I think I would choose death over a world 8'x10' with a bunk, toilet and sink.
You can make a choise. People on death row usually would like to make one too, but can't.
You loose choice when you are convicted by your peers. The victim/s
had no choice either.
Thank you, Lady and gentleman, for proving Skybirds point - which I support - that the most appealing motive for the death penalty is pure revenge...
No. Your rationale was simply unimpressive.

[Abraham]

--- deleted ---
First time as a General Topic Forum moderator I really have to bite my tongue ...

:arrgh!:
Abraham with his moderator hat on.

[Skybird]

You talk about searching and finding a flaw in the court'S procedure and sentence. If Schwarzenegger would have found that, it would not be a mercy, but a juristical mistake.
That's right, and if Schwarzenegger could see no problem with Williams' trial, then he must assume that Williams was guilty. In that case, the only grounds for stopping the execution would be if Williams had sufficiently reformed himself. He never admitted to the murders, therefore he never apologised, repented, or felt any remorse for them. Given this, there is no way Schwarzenegger could have granted clemency.

I myself only apologize for things that I have comitted. He denied that he had commited those murders he had been sentenced for. Wouldn'T have been be the first trial leading to false outcomes and sentences. TW did something much more significant and important than confessing to a crime that he said he had not done - that is changing himself, and having influenced hundreds if not thousands of young people not to join a gang and start a wrong career like he himself had done. With that he has given more than a 1:1 compensation and have given something precious and valuable back to the community - the lives of thousands of your young ones, thousands of family saved that way. But these lifes count lesser, obviously, than an excuse for crimes the offender rejects to have done. And that is absolutely queer, in my understanding of ethics and values.

[Abraham]

The problem is not (the decision of) Schwarzenegger, the problem is a legal system that still supports the death penalty.

[Skybird]

there is a difference in understanding in legal penalties in America and Europe, or Germany, it seems to me from this discussion. In Germay penatlies are given to save the community from a danger, or change someone by giving him "some time in the cooling box" to think things over. If this ideal really always works can be discussed, but in many cases individuals are given a second chance for rehabilitation. But when hearing August say that death penalty should not be given because becaue it is not as painful as living in a box for the rest of one'
s life, I can only shake my head about this craving for cruelty and the hunger for revenge and payback that is on display here. "Bread and games" - I think if theirt would be Collosseums in Amnerica, some people would like to see sentences beeing taken care of by lions and beasts and gladiators.

Stastistics have shown time and again that many, many death sentences were given by mistake. Sometimes they read 14%, sometimes they read 30%. No matter what, the message is: the system does not work reliable. Even this does not make people stop and think it over. If you were the one beeing sentenced for nothing, you certainly would think different. But so it is only about "tough American justice". there are plenty of less flattery terms I can think of to describe what it is. And also, statistics also fail to give the smallest proof that death sentence has a deterrent effect. There is not a single murder or rape or drug deal that has been prevented by it.

Can you give back a life you have taken by mistake? Does killing another one change things? No? Then be more hesitant to kill.

[Skybird]

your tongue heals quickly!

[Abraham]

your tongue heals quickly!
It did not really bleed, I just had to bite it. And when I read back to the last posting of page one of this subject I have to bite it again...
:D

[The Avon Lady]

your tongue heals quickly!
Maybe its regenerative. :o


:P

[mog]

You talk about searching and finding a flaw in the court'S procedure and sentence. If Schwarzenegger would have found that, it would not be a mercy, but a juristical mistake.
That's right, and if Schwarzenegger could see no problem with Williams' trial, then he must assume that Williams was guilty. In that case, the only grounds for stopping the execution would be if Williams had sufficiently reformed himself. He never admitted to the murders, therefore he never apologised, repented, or felt any remorse for them. Given this, there is no way Schwarzenegger could have granted clemency.

I myself only apologize for things that I have comitted. He denied that he had commited those murders he had been sentenced for. Wouldn'T have been be the first trial leading to false outcomes and sentences.
That's true, but Schwarzenegger and numerous appeals courts found no grounds to overturn the verdict. I personally don't support capital punishment, but my point is that Schwarzenegger really would have been abusing his powers as governor if he were to grant clemency to a man who had received a fair trial and who had not repented for his crimes. It is completely unfair for these Austrians to be holding Schwarzenegger personally responsible when he was doing the job he was elected to do.

TW did something much more significant and important than confessing to a crime that he said he had not done - that is changing himself, and having influenced hundreds if not thousands of young people not to join a gang and start a wrong career like he himself had done. With that he has given more than a 1:1 compensation and have given something precious and valuable back to the community - the lives of thousands of your young ones, thousands of family saved that way. But these lifes count lesser, obviously, than an excuse for crimes the offender rejects to have done. And that is absolutely queer, in my understanding of ethics and values.
How many children Williams stopped from joining gangs is a matter of speculation. On the other hand, it is a fact that the gang Williams started is responsible for hundreds of murders and destroying countless thousands of lives through its drug running and other activities. Even after he supposedly renounced his gang affiliations about 10 years ago, he refused to help police with investigations involving the Crips because he didn't want to be a snitch. There's simply no way that he has made anything near a 1 to 1 compensation for his lifetime of thuggery.

[August]

* Bort]The death penalty is so politically charged, I can understand why it was expedient for AHHNOHLD to send TW to the death chamber, though that certainly doesn't mean that I support it, or that I would have done the same in his position.

Were you in his position your choices would be limited by what you could legally do just as his were. A Governor can't overturn a court imposed sentence on a whim.

[Abraham]

Interesting info, MOG.

However the question is not if he should be punished - he was convicted after all - but if he should get the capital punishment. The interwoven question is whether the conviction was justified or not, which is always a dicy question if the alledged crimes are not admitted by the defendant.

[The Avon Lady]

Ahhhnold's got spunk! :yep:

Schwarzenegger to Hometown: Remove My Name (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051219/ap_on_re_us/schwarzenegger_hometown;_ylt=Ag632wF.pAivo6ByYtIjp Vms0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-)
By JENNIFER COLEMAN, Associated Press Writer
Mon Dec 19, 6:51 PM ET

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Monday told officials in his hometown in Austria to remove his name from a sports stadium and stop using his identity to promote the city.

The governor's request came after politicians in Graz began a petition drive to rename the stadium, reacting to Schwarzenegger's decision last week to deny clemency to condemned inmate Stanley Tookie Williams. Opposition to the death penalty is strong in Austria.

In a letter that began "Dear Mister Mayor," Schwarzenegger said he decided to spare the Graz city council "further concern" should he be forced to make other clemency decisions while he's governor. Another inmate is scheduled to be executed in California Jan. 17.

"In all likelihood, during my term as governor, I will have to make similar and equally difficult decisions," Schwarzenegger said in the letter. "To spare the responsible politicians of the city of Graz further concern, I withdraw from them as of this day the right to use my name in association with the Liebenauer Stadium."

The stadium was renamed for the former Hollywood star in 1997. He asked that the lettering be removed by year's end.

Schwarzenegger spokeswoman Margita Thompson said the letter was faxed Monday to the Graz city hall. The city council was expected to take up the matter next month.

In the letter, Schwarzenegger also said he would no longer permit the use of his name "to advertise or promote the city of Graz in any way" and would return the city's "ring of honor."

The ring was given to him in a ceremony in Graz in 1999. At the time, Schwarzenegger said he considered it "a token of sincere friendship between my hometown and me."

"Since, however, the official Graz appears to no longer accept me as one of their own, this ring has lost its meaning and value to me. It is already in the mail," the governor wrote.

Williams, co-founder of the Crips gang, was convicted of four 1979 murders. He was executed shortly after midnight Dec. 13.

[Abraham]

At least "Ahhhnold" is straight!

[drEaPer]

Thats really weird. In the first post, it is said that austria is changing the name of the stadium because of arnolds decision, and in the other news its said that arnold himself tells austria to change the name.
Thats exactly what I hate about todays news: You never know the real story. News are becoming guesses more and more.

On the death penalty discussion I can only agree with Skybird and TLAM, as there (partly philosophical) explanations were straightto the point.

Revenge/Punishment is one of humanities reasons for never ending conflicts, in big scales, like the middle east and in small scales, like neighboarhood-wars. To defer to the feling of revenge does not make things(murder) undone, while it obviously also doesnt makes USA saver.
I find it kinda ironic, instead of controlling the weapons and guns industry a little bit more, thus making it harder for people to get gun, instead of giving people the chance to change their believes and views in prison so they can go back and influence others, we try to deter people and kill them _after_ they already commited the murder/crime. Even animals are smarter than us humans when it comes down to revenge.

[The Avon Lady]

Thats really weird. In the first post, it is said that austria is changing the name of the stadium because of arnolds decision, and in the other news its said that arnold himself tells austria to change the name.
Thats exactly what I hate about todays news: You never know the real story. News are becoming guesses more and more.
There's no contradiction between the 2 reports. :nope: