Cut Foreign Aid

[U-552Erich-Topp]

:) I say cut Foreign Aid and give us all a tax break. Why??????? We all have spent Billions of dollars, Euros, etc. and Millions of manhours trying to improve third world countries. Of the Billions spent, very little money actually reaches the people at the bottom, why?????????........and the return on the investment is Zero for us. Is this an ENDLESS MONEY PIT???????

Think about it, there isn't a business out there in the world that would spend Billions for a Zero return on the investment. Are the charity organizations a business??????? Does only a portion of what the charities take in actually get to the people??????

I still don't see Billions apon Billions apon Billions of improvement in these third world countries. That only can mean one thing. Sending all this money over there is NOT an effective way to stop poverty or crime. Someone has to come up with a better solution for these countries........money just isn't doing the job.

As the saying goes "Charity starts at home" and that's the way it should be. We need to educate, train, motivate and equip the young people right here at home to meet the upcoming challenges of the world.

I can't believe these minority groups here in Canada want the government to increase foreign aid.....and if they don't send money the groups won't help vote in the next government (talk about threatening)........, better yet, why not send them ALL OUR JOBS while they're at it............Oh, and listen to the whinning that the minority groups made over here when Pakistan had a disaster recently. I'll give you a hint what people think about that one. They heard nothing but whinning and they generally ignored it. Why?????? Because people don't like to be whinned at. (So ofcourse they don't give as much money then).

I sure didn't see ALL these third world countries coming to the aid of the United States when the hurricanes ripped through this year..........but boy do they ever whinne when something happens over in their country.

Maybe the third world countries would be better off fixing their own problems without all our help??????????

[Happy Times]

Have to agree.. For exsample Finland puts most of its foreign aid to Tanzania. They have gotten billions of dollars during a time of over 30 years. They have absolutely nothing to show from that. Finland isnt an ex colonialist country so dont see we are in debth. Finland itself was a colony of Sweden and Russia until 1918. We were a poor agricultural country even after WW2. Now we are a rich hi-tech country without taking even Marshall aid. Maybe its time the developing countries look critically if they could do something better to help themselfs.

[Drebbel]

Wondering what this mother and child would say about these views.

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/hires-image/mother_and_child_starving_bw.jpg

[CCIP]

There is, however, strong evidence that the aid really isn't helping. There is something inherently wrong in the structure of the governemtns and/or societies that this aid is going to.

I think they've been treated unfairly by the colonizing powers, yes. And I think some measure of humanitarian relief is needed. But there needs to be some realistic assessment of the measures.

I'm sorry to say it, but before I send money to Africa, I'll send some to my troubled relatives in Russia, which I do. And before I run to my government telling them to forgive 3rd World debt, I'll ask them to forgive my hefty student loans.

Egoism? Perhaps. But had we all been altruistic, none of these measures would be needed.

[XabbaRus]

Something contraversial here.

Do you think the African nations were better managed and the people better off under colonial rule of the Briths, Germans, French, Dutch and whoever else was there?

[Happy Times]

Wondering what this mother and child would say about these views.

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/hires-image/mother_and_child_starving_bw.jpg Well this is most likely caused by their own goverment and pumping billions of economic aid isnt going to help :doh: The picture is from a situation that requires CATASTROPHY aid not ECONOMIC aid wich we were talking about.

[mog]

Aid does nothing to alleviate poverty compared to economic growth. The best thing rich countries can do to help the third world is free trade by slashing their tariffs. If aid must be given, it should be in the form of underwriting microfinance ventures that give out small loans to peasants - which actually could end up producing a profit despite the high risk.

It's ironic that those leftist activists who say we don't do enough to help the third world are usually the same ones who decry globalisation, when history has proven that capitalism is the answer.

[Wim Libaers]

This "aid" (*) is only giving them more rope to hang themselves with. If some country cannot get a sustainable system with its available resources, then it is overpopulated and/or mismanaged. Supporting such countries allows them to continue in bad ways, damaging the ecosystem, reducing carrying capacity even further, and reinforcing bad management. So they can be expected to be in need of even more aid later.

Of course, this might seem like an extremely cruel view when Drebbel posts a picture of someone who looks like she and her child could really use some help. Those people who cannot handle the idea that there are no simple or "nice" solutions for all problems would then choose to "help", which makes them feel good about themselves, and refuse to consider the harmful long-term consequences. Most people's idea of ethical behaviour in these cases consists of doing what makes them feel good, not thinking about whether it really is good. How much suffering you will cause if you choose to "help", this is a topic most people would rather avoid.

Of course, one might want to draw a distinction between aid in the case of brief random disasters (like hurricanes or tsunamis) and persistent ever-worsening cases. Even though some of the death toll during disasters is due to bad preparation or reckless behaviour, aid may be OK as it only gives some help to restore a previously working system, and aid can, in such cases, be compared to an insurance system. But supporting a seriously flawed system does not help, it harms.




(*) intervention would be a better word, because the word "aid" makes it sound like a good thing.

[Skybird]

Morally it's a no-win-situation, whatever option one chooses, it's a looser. Western nations have to accept too great responsebility in the past but also in the present to have pushed foreign people and cultures to where they are right now, and that way noone can say that the West back then and third world today have had the same starting conditions, in terms of preconditions and generally: "fairness".
[This shall not allow to ignore the fact that sometimes foreign people's cultures and history themselves have created factors that negatively feed back on their contemporary status and chances for the future; rigid society structures, for example (Hinduism), or a spiritual climate that does not allow the developement of reason and logic, science and philosophy (Islam), or a code of laws regulating tribal interactions in a way that let's them stagnate, not develope, or embraces them in neverending tribal wars. Africa) ]
But with regard to our owhn history, we nevertheless owe to many of them. But almost every helping effort suffers from corruption, and war parties picking away what they consider to be their share of it. Such interest groups even create "events" to make the aide go flowing again sot hat they can have their income: it's usual business in Africa and parts of Southeast Asia, south America as well. If you give one dollar to a street collector, 20, 30, 50 % of it will end in form of ammunition, weapons and medical supplies for war factions that at the same time gets damned in the world's media at the same time. If you want to help, you have to support massmurderes and wars and massacres that were committed to make you spend money when you see the pictures of unhappy mothers and starving children. Reality does not know cynism - it simply is what it is.

The morality issue becomes even sharper when thinking about if this planet even can afford to allow all people in the world the same ammount of industrialization and material luxury we enjoy ourselves in the West. Consider 1.2 billion Chinese sharing the American lifestyle - that would mean, that waste of ressources and environmental and aerial pollution would rocket straight into the air by multiple factors! Or all African families having the same density of car-owning like european or American societies. And... and... Our Western life style is seriously out of balance. It is of such an absurd and queer quality that we cannot survive if ALL mankind is living to this standard. "They" may have to little. But surely "we" demand too much for ourselves.

Everybody wants to party, but noone wants to clean the kitchen.

The only reasonable longterm perspective I see as valid is that we in the West start manhunting and getting rid of our corrupt, egoist self-declared lying and deeply rotten "elites" in economics and politics and kill the evil selfishness they have implemented in world trade, global arms trade, and economicial exploitation (for example by supporting dictators here and there, or warlords like those that were talked about above - if only they guarantee the flow of needed ressources like uran, diamonds, or whatever.). Our politiccs are based on lies, betrayal and self-deception. How can we expect that ever something good will come from them? they are no solution to the problems, they are the root of it. Kill them, and shed no tear for them.

We also need to rethink if the values will live up to are really reasonable and "valuable". If they have led us to where we are, than obviously something is terribly wrong with them. It is no wisdom to propagate a way of living and a code of ethics that leads us to designing our civilization for ultimate implosive suicide on a materialistically high developed level. It has led us away from what really counts. So it is a wrong way, or we are not still not ripe to handle the fruits of our sowings with the needed sense of responsebility. I always thought that space travelling developed much faster than the evolution of human mind. It gives us no new capacity to solve our problems on a basic level, but gives us the ability only to transport our problems to the stars. We constantly acceölerate, and more and more people get physically and psychologically sick by the mad speed modern life is lived by, and we have develoeped clear destructive symptoms on all levels of communal and individual life. Mayn poorer societies neverthelss paradoxically enjoy a far higher level of mental health than we do. Shouldn't this make us think twice about our self-declared superiority?

What to do for you and me? My answer: help the individual, if you happen to know someone. You can even try to get to know someone in need of help. If you really want to help, there is no esxcuse for you not to find someone in need for help, wether it be far away, or next to your place. Just open your damn eyes. If you want to help, you can find someone who needs help, and you can find him on day one of your search - guaranteed. Do not rely on institututions and organisation and medias, don'T let yourself beeing intimidated by media reports about how big in scale the latest bad event has been, concentrate on the scale of your own life. Don't do it because it makes you feel good, or proud, or because your faith tells you it is a good thing - just do it, and do it for the sake of the one person that receives your help. If you do it because you think of your fate on judgement day, you already have poisened your effort again. Don't try to save the world, but try to save the one next to you. Influence others you happen to know into this direction of thinking. If only enough people would do that, it would change our acting on the higher level of social community: it then would change our politics, our priorities in economy, our hierarchy of ethical values, and so forth.

Nothing else will ever work. Their is no instant-highway to paradise-on-earth.

I am a realist. Of course it will not come this way, I know.

The alternatives given hy Happy Times I only think about as the usual often-thought "reasonable" alibis for not doing anything and keeping all we have for ourselves, never questioning the righteousness of our way of going, or the economical wisdom in it. Business as usual, that means.

Pictures like the one posted by Drebbel are a mirror to me, in which I see the reflected image of ourself's failure, and the dark side of our selfish mind. That women is not a mother in some far away, desperate land. She is the face of your self that you have murdered yourself long time ago.

So look at that picture, and in her eyes recognize yourself.

[Happy Times]

Well i still allways participate in the Red Cross campaigns, they go to something usefull and urgent for the most part. I just think its stupid to just give away money to corrupt goverments without any results coming from it. You said that their preconditions after colonization werent fair and the same. But one could argue that they got their basic infrastructure from that time. What if Europeans hadnt gone to Africa,Asia,America. What would be different? They wouldnt be killing each other? There wouldnt be AIDS? Poverty? Corruption? Sorry but im not going to start feeling bad about the state of developing countries. And if there is too many people on the earth, i think nature will work it out.

[U-552Erich-Topp]

:) I wonder how many dollars/Euros have been spent on arms out of the total amount of foreign aid (intervention) so far????????? Anyone know what the price of an AK-47 is in a third world country???????? (bet it's a lot less than here).

As for accountabilty for all this money being sent over to third world nations...................

WHERE IS IT????????????? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

Show me the real financial records and receipts (not the second set of financial books)!!!!!!!! (It would take a medium sized army to manage the book keeping alone). :nope:

What percentage do organizations like Care, World Vision and the like take off the front end of donations realistically??????????? (What is their real profit margin??????) Anyone really know??????
(My guess is more than 50% managed through creative book keeping). How much are the accounting costs alone?????????

I wonder what an uninterupted hour without advertising of Television time costs to rent on a major network????? :hulk:

What does it cost to send a large ocean going freighter overseas with a shipment. What does it cost to rent a Boeing 737 to ship goods overseas????????? (Or do we put the goods in pop bottles, toss them into the sea, and they magically arrive there?).

[gdogghenrikson]

I agree, cut forign aid

[TteFAboB]

Cut foreign aid to South America.

Though nowhere near the troubling levels of Africa, when the money doesn't land in obscure hands and directly funds perverse agendas, it usually turns into an enslaving plain hand-out charity program, which causes much more harm than good.

There are specific cases where foreign aid would actually help, usually in disaster areas, and each case must be analized individually, but long-term hand-out with no plan or goal or exit route is negative in anyway you see it.

Not to mention the absurd cases, such as the official British and Australian financing of the disarmament campaign in Brazil, I wonder how the Brit and Aussie tax payer would feel if you told him his hard-earned money was wasted on a failed, useless, campaign.

On a private level, there are European marxist Catholic Priests who willingly or unwillingly help finance criminal organizations by handing over money to obscure NGO's, one of which was almost shut down when many irregularities were found in its finances, after that the donations ceased.

The assassins of the American Nun were linked to an organization which had received private foreign aid, it's hard to tell, but most donators probably don't even know where their money is going to, and that it is being used by murderers!

I would also like to suggest to anyone that you avoid donating to Care, WWF or Green Peace when it comes to donations to Brazil, these three organizations may have some nice people who wants to do good and help, but the best they have done overall is waste ALOT of money, there are a few succesfull projects, but there are others that are a plain money drain, sometimes I wonder if they are doing money laundry or if they simply don't care since there is always more money raining in.

But if your conscience demands it or you just want to do your part, then buy shares on our Stock Market or Bonds, buy Brazilian imported products, and only donate to organizations if you can personally check where the money is going to, if it is hard to verify, search for another organization, by doing any of this you are actually supporting independent people who are pulling their own weight in society, we can take care of our own charity needs.

[Kapitan]

now put yourself in a starving 5 year olds shoes you live in a mud hut your mum and dad dead and your 7 year old sister looks after you, you have not eaten for over a week and starting to feel ill the hospital is 200 miles away and you can only walk.

and you are saying cut forign aid :( shame on you

id rather pay taxes to help support them people than buy yet another multi million dollar plane.

would you let your own kids get like that ? some people have no choice some have to rely on handouts from us, we got the money but we are to tight fisted to hand some over if the richest nations on earth (america japan britain europe and russia) all handed over one weeks income and wrote off the countrys debt then we could help wipe poverty out.

its not something you wish for your born into it at least give them people who are not as fortunate as me and you a chance dont they deserve it?

[Godalmighty83]

there is only one cause of starvation, overpopulation.

if a area of land only gets enough rain to support x amount of people its no good trying to keep 50x living there.

[Fish]

Something contraversial here.

Do you think the African nations were better managed and the people better off under colonial rule of the Briths, Germans, French, Dutch and whoever else was there?

We didn't have colony's in Africa. :doh:
The Belgian's however........

[Iceman]

there is only one cause of starvation, overpopulation.

if a area of land only gets enough rain to support x amount of people its no good trying to keep 50x living there.

http://www.cyberallies.com/horsemen.jpg

Tough to fight creatures like this...

Revelation 6
[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
[3] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
[4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
[5] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
[6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
[7] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

[Hitman]

Foreign aid in our developed countries many times is in fact just a credit to shop in our business...it's not as much an aid to third world as an aid to our local industry & agriculture in order to help them sell some products that would otherwise have little demand... :hmm: Our governments are not as generous as you would think, they just do it for the benefits of our economy, not for theirs. Otherwise they would take other actions.

@Drebbel: Yes I agree that it is a human tragedy, but maybe that mother should have thought twice before having a child?

It is unacceptable that people living in refugees camps still keep having 5-6 childs per woman. Giving birth to children just to make them starve is a crime in my opinion, it is totally against a responsable use of our ability to procreate.

We might be responsable for decolonization to a certain extent, but not for the explosive and incontrolled growth of population in the third world. If they had been having only 2 sons per couple in the last 50 years, they would not live today in such terrible conditions! :shifty: Think about India....they are MAD, 1000 million+ and growing....their land will not resist such a overpopulation, and what then? Then they will demand our aid to solve a problem they are entirely responsable for.

[Beery]

Blimey! From the comments above, one would think that our society is the model of good money management. We talk about foreign government corruption and waste, but our entire Western society is built on, and sustained by, a virtual pandemic of wasteful spending.

Tell me this: what good will cutting foreign aid do? It's not like any of our countries give all that much in foreign aid anyway. What are we going to use the paltry sum we save for? What great humanitarian programs would that money fund here at home? Or are you just thinking that the pennies you'll save every year from it will come in handy to buy an extra cheap Bic ballpoint pen, or perhaps an extra chocolate treat you can buy at the candy store at Christmas time? 'Cos that's about what it amounts to - an extra few cents in your pocket at the end of the year. Maybe it doesn't help much abroad, but I'm sure it saves some lives even if there's vast corruption involved. At home, all that money will do is go into our vast consumer culture. We'll gain an extra pound in weight and spend dollars more at the gym working it off. We will kill more people at home by keeping the cash (through overweight-induced health problems) than the lives we save abroad by sending it there.

So what good will it do in your pocket? I mean look at me - 3rd World government corruption pales in comparison to the wasteful spending I do on my weekly trip to the bookstore. Last week I bought two magazines I still haven't read and a DVD I haven't even watched yet. I just tend to think that, in our "consumption for consumption's sake" society, pouring money down the foreign aid toilet is probably more useful than buying stuff with it at home. So I'm for sending the money abroad, at least until we learn how to spend it wisely at home.

[CCIP]

So I'm for sending the money abroad, at least until we learn how to spend it wisely at home.

That's a very good point I think.

Just to clarify my own position though, I didn't imply anything about supporting Western consumer tendencies. I'm pretty shocked at the amount of senseless spending people do around here sometimes; perhaps its my own upbringing in tough conditions.

A lot of people from the middle class really don't have an appreciation of poverty. However I don't think sending aid really helps them understand, either.

Myself, again, I'm with the idea of aid to individuals rather than societies first and foremost.

[Kapitan]

ive gone up in the world

i used to live with my mum and stepdad and little sister in a 3 bedroom councill house that was left over from WW2 (prefabricated house), i was bought up in a very rough area and had to fight nearly all the time.


id be stupid to say i won every fight i got into but i didnt i lost alot but won alot so drew even. my family was living on state benifits for a short while before my stepdad went back to work and that was the poorest ive been.

£15 each for the chldren (family allowence)
£53 dole money for stepdad
£40 other benefits

total: £123 per week to live on

not alot but you had to make do.

i now live with my real dad and my stepdad has moved away and my mum split up with him, but now i live where i do ive gone up to middle class, my nan owns her own home my dad has a good adequately paid job.

im fortuanate but i do know what its like to be poor ive been there and yes you can work yourself out of it as them TV adverts say

[Hitman]

3rd World government corruption pales in comparison to the wasteful spending I do on my weekly trip to the bookstore. Last week I bought two magazines I still haven't read and a DVD I haven't even watched yet

Your "consumist" actions have in fact helped some families who earn a wage thanks to the DVD and magazine industry in your country, and the taxes the state has got in the way have helped building hospitals and paying medics in your country. Is that exactly senseless spending? Or a friendly way to make people depart with their extra bucket in something that helps the richness of the country to improve?

[TteFAboB]

When we say "corruption" are we including state slavery? That is, Dictators from poor African countries enslaving their population by being the only source of food/money supported by foreign aid?

It would be quite selfish to finance that kind of activity simply because you don't want magazine or DVD stores to make a profit, and instead allow for some pesky Dictator to provide a miserable life to millions, while believing you are actually "helping", who said they need money?

Africa is rich, much richer than Europe for instance on natural resources, they don't need your money, there are a few succesfull examples in Africa where money was not involved at all, though politicians usually only think of it as it is much easier to simply hand them cash with a "There you go, make good use of it, don't spend it all in one go!" mentality than actually offering a helping hand, and that's what's needed.

The people in a small village in Nigeria used to survive off the fruits that from time to time fall on the ground from trees or fishing only the necessary fish to kill their hunger on that day with small canoes, they were miserable.

Then, a small European expedition decided to travel to that village and teach them the basic concepts of agriculture and cooperation, if they continue to savage fruits randomly and only when they're hungry they'll never know the day of tomorrow since someone can get the fruits before them, this kind of competition will eventually leave someone without any fruits at all for the day, especially if someone decides to getsas much as he can carry.

But what if everybody had a tree in their backyard? What if you had an entire field of trees? Not only would you have enough to survive but you could provide food for others too, especially those who live further away from any source of fruits, those could travel to the village market and trade either using currency or even directly other goods.

It's the same with the fishing, if everybody catch one or two fish for themselves they'll have enough to eat alright, but what about those who live far from the coast and are not willing to kill their goats for meat since they rather sell the milk? Why catch one or two fish if there are so many fish the region is considered "under"-explored? So the Europeans taught them cooperation, get rid of the small canoes, you need a net large enough to catch a bunch of fish, and to operate this net you need more than one fisherman, so a bunch of fisherman join together, launch a big net and catch a ton of fish they will then share to eat, store and sell, they only need electricity to produce ice and/or refrigerate the fish, not money or food, what makes you believe the local corrupt politician will assist building a refrigerated storage?

Why should all this people rely on sacks of rice provided by the local politician through foreign aid? So that these people continue to depend on the politician and continue to vote him on office if and everytime they get to vote? Why should this region continue under-developed and supported by foreign money hand-outs if there is so much need for food throughout Africa and they could expand and export food to all these regions?

There is a similar case in Brazil, on a poor coastal region, where there aren't even fishing quotas, so huge is the amount of fish on the ocean, fisherman originally used primitive little row boats, then someone had a great idea and started using a sail boat, all fisherman copied the idea as the sail boats are obviously larger, carried a bigger net and could bring home more fish, but why are they using row/sail boats if everywhere else the trend is to use Jet/Engine vessels which are even larger?! Because they have no money to buy the engines nor the bigger ships, the little profit they make was usually spent to improve their households and not their source of profit, they don't teach business management in public schools, so how should they know it would be wiser to invest on their boat instead of buying a 14' TV? The smarter fisherman who invested on better boats now have a huge advantage, all the others need is one mere engine to fit on their boats, what does the local government do?

Creates a money hand-out program, with no goal, no exit, it's a simple register and get cash, instead of register, read the leaflet and get cash untill you start making X profit then you're on your own again.

Result? Everybody takes advantage of it, of course, but the fisherman who didn't invested on their boats in the first place, and received no hint to do so, didn't bought an engine again, they were ignorant before, why having some money in their hands would make them any smarter? Instead, they continued to improve their household and bought more consumer goods and now they have to pay for it so the money from the program is being used to finance a 21' TV.

So if someone doesn't want to buy a new DVD or a magazine, instead of ruining the life of so many people and supporting corrupt politicians in power, I can give you the telephone number to the fisherman associations of these poor regions and you can contact them to arrange the donation of an engine, they can then raffle it, they don't need your money nor your food, which is instead used by politicians to buy the votes of the people, we discovered even national food hand-out programs were being announced by the local politicians as their OWN doing to get them votes!

I retract my previous statement, do not cut foreign aid, donate this:
http://www.shallowwaterangler.com/tv/episodes/Mercury_115_Optimax.jpg
Hurry up as more international fishing boats continue to sneak into our waters to steal our fish before our thinly-spread navy can kick them out again.

[sonar732]

All governments have some level of corruption.

So, who do we trust? Our own governments to spend on citizens at home, or the government who spends the money we send them?

:hmm: :hmm: :damn: :damn:

[U-552Erich-Topp]

:) One basic thing that most people seem to agree on is there is no accountability for all the foreign aid given. Until there is complete financil accountability, foreign aid should be stopped. Otherwise WE continue the cycle. Anotherwards if you break the chain in the cycle that type of habit (abuse of foriegn aid) by foreign governments stops.

I have a feeling that the abuse of foreign aid funds is not just limited to governments. What about the organisations like Care, World Vision, etc., etc., etc.???????? I really wonder if every penny gets to the people who need it through these organisations?????

I wonder how many weapons have been bought using foreign aid or aid supplied through an private agency????????