Russia [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Type941

11-24-05, 02:01 PM

Nationalist AND expansionist?? :hmm: As opposed to Finns, who are just nationalist or ?? :rotfl: What a silly poll options.

Russia won't be a 'part of europe' in a sense that Germany is a part of Europe. Russia actually doesn't need Europe - it's big and self sufficient country, as opposed to so many nations that make up Europe. I assure you, Russia doesn't even want to be a part of EU or any other elite local club. The only place the want is WTO.

Regarding democracy bit, again, democracy means different things to different people.

I can smell that behind your poll (and judging by your comments in the past) is just one thing: you hope Russia breaks up and Korelia becomes part of Finland. And the hell with the rest of the country, and its people.

:down:

Happy Times

11-24-05, 02:52 PM

ationalist AND expansionist?? Hmmm As opposed to Finns, who are just nationalist or ?? Well Finnish nationalism in 19th century was created by the russification attemps and led to independence. ;) There arent strong nationalistic political partys/movements in Finland today. Russia actually doesn't need Europe - it's big and self sufficient country, as opposed to so many nations that make up Europe. Actually Russia is pretty vulnerable to world market prices, 80% of its exports are natural riches. And it has to import a lot of products. Regarding democracy bit, again, democracy means different things to different people.
What do you meen? The basic principles are pretty clear. I can smell that behind your poll (and judging by your comments in the past) is just one thing: you hope Russia breaks up and Korelia becomes part of Finland. And the hell with the rest of the country, and its people. More like hell whit its leaders and wake up and smell the coffee to the people. :up:

CCIP

11-24-05, 08:05 PM

Regarding democracy bit, again, democracy means different things to different people.

Amen to that.

Russia is still in deep trouble, but the problems are less political and more social.

As far as Russians, although due to the social problems there is a growing nationalist movement, it's still very much in the minority.

If there's anything generalizable that Russians are, meanwhile, it's that they're incredibly passive politically.

Democracy? Let's not fool ourselves. Nationalism? It's not strong enough yet. Break up? To what? There's no strong regional loyalties, with a few exceptions in the Caucasus perhaps - but these are tiny.

My bet - Russia stays in its' quasi-democratic former-KGB limbo. In a few decades, perhaps, Siberia goes to China. I don't think the Karelia thing might go far - but perhaps if Finland gets rich, they could buy it.

kiwi_2005

11-24-05, 11:16 PM

For the Motherland :rock:

Happy Times

11-24-05, 11:25 PM

Break up? To what? There's no strong regional loyalties, with a few exceptions in the Caucasus perhaps - but these are tiny. http://www.cdi.org/russia/305-7.cfm There are other opinions about this. Though i see the autoritarian centralized scenario more likely. :-?

Oberon

11-25-05, 01:23 AM

For the Motherland :rock:

"We will bury them!" :rock:

Catfish

11-25-05, 04:06 AM

Hello,
as long as Putin is "president", there will be no change to democracy. If you observe what happens to free business leaders this is nothing more than dictatorship. Russia is currently ruled by the secret service, almost every leading post of business is filled with persons from Putin's organisation. Any free capitalist (e.g. Gasprom) is being accused of ridiculous actions "against the Russian state" and being thrown into prison. This is not the change that was already visible during Gorbatschov's time, but a fallback - only with a "capitalist" mantle and no free enterprises. There are no free elections, not even in the US style of democracy.
Greetings,
Catfish

Kapitan

11-25-05, 06:01 AM

Kapitan

11-25-05, 06:01 AM

kiwi_2005

11-25-05, 06:26 AM

We will bury them

:roll:

Catfish

11-25-05, 07:13 AM

Hello Kapitain,
i did not mean to offend you, sorry. Things in Russia are certainly difficult, and you probably need a strong hand to keep control and hopefully lead the nation into better times. However several names on a list to choose from are not alone what makes a democracy, the chosen leaders should not act as dictators then, prohibiting free speech and free enterprise.

There is still this "saga" that Hitler was elected - well, this is not quite the truth. Members of the german parliament were hindered to enter certain votes, they were frightened personally or beaten, or they were simply blackmailed in threatening their families by the SA. Anyone who voted against the party was written down and persecuted. I somehow would not call the final election "democratic".

There is no way in comparing Germany back then and Russia today, and Putin certainly deserves a better evaluation. But hindering firms and business to act freely and arresting their leaders because they grew to a danger for Putin, or so he thought, is not democratic. There stilll is no free press. If someone gets really big enough threatening to be elected, he will get serious problems. And i do not see that Putin does enough against the Russian Mafia, instead he pursues "normal" business leaders and replaces them with his men.
But i do not really know enough of what Putin really has in mind or plans - does anyone?

Greetings,
Catfish

Kapitan

11-25-05, 08:48 AM

hey catfish i think you miss understood my post lol you didnt offend me sorry if you took it that way but i can see what your saying i mean putin has been in power now for 5 years and is a very good president not many people want rid of him.

since i started studying the russian navy way back in 1996/7 i found that the predasesor to putin almost made the armed forces bankrupt he didnt have a clue.

the in 2000 put reformed the millatery and struck off the crap that is not needed such as alot of older Delta class submarines and in 4 years he has dropped the SSBN force from 26 to 16 and plans to reform it further and minimise it to 12 or 14 SSBN's which is adaquate.

putin also introduced sponsorship where big russian comapnys sponsor naval vessels one such vessel TK20 severstyle is sponsord by the company severstyle.

this saves money and allowes for other projects to be established if it wasnt for putins sponsoring idea the borey lada and sevdvinsk wouldnt exist right now they would be about 10 years away.

CCIP

11-25-05, 06:16 PM

there is free elections ive seen a polling card and it doesnt just list putins name a dozen times it lists everything including communist leaders which might i add are the third most powerful party in the kremlin

The communists may seem like a strong party, but one look at their post-USSR history and the demographics of their voters are very telling of the fact that they're not going anywhere. Zyuganov had a pretty good chance in 1996; but Yeltsin played a fine card with nice-sounding promises of support to General Lebyed', and the rest is history (as is Lebyed', whose death I still refuse to accept as an "aviation accident")

And so what do we see? The communists have been steadily losing votes, and there's an easy explanation for why: consider the demographic of their voters. Overwhelmingly, these are pensioners longing for the 'good old times'.

What do we know about Putin and pensioners? I know quite a lot, unfortunately, and I'm yet to be given any explanation for the current government policy towards them - besides the idea that they're being conviniently killed off as their already-ridiculous pensions and free services are being cut.

What are these other parties and candidates? Name one 'democratic' party in Russia that has anything but a tiny minority in the government. The fact is, there were some relatively progressive western-style democratic parties in the 90's - like the Yabloko - but they are, for all purposes, politically dead right now. All you have remaining is a constantly-changing block of parties (that gives the appearance of "democratic choice") which consists of the same exact core that held power since the early 90's, the slowly-dying communists, and what else... the weird LDPR with their hilarious leader, which, when it comes to key decisions, votes on the government line?

And, Kapitain, as much as I respect your dedication to subs - please, spare me. Judging a regime based on its supposedly-improved management of the navy and its' manufacturing of new subs while a huge number of people can't make ends meet after having been thrice robbed by this government is, quite frankly, idiotic.

joea

11-26-05, 05:42 AM

Good post CCIP.

Kapitan

11-26-05, 07:27 AM

yes your right communists have lost alot of votes infact they were the second most powerfulest party in russia till around 1995 but since then a steady decline its estimated that they will dwindle for a long time yet

Kapitan

11-26-05, 07:37 AM

i wont hide the fact the pension scheme is well pathetic or in a good deal of cases non existant.

avaerage pension is $77 per two weeks avaerage wage an officer on submarines brings home is $600 per month (top ranking brass captains and above)

the cost of living isnt as high as it is in britain america or switserland but i do think more could be done for the pensioners the ones who did put thier lives on the line and did almost make the sacrafice as they say "some gave thier tommorrow for your today"

depending on where you live city town or village the cost of living varies, the towns and citys being more expencive than the villages, i went to a mc donalds while in nizhney novgorad $2 for a double cheese burger thats not bad but the same item in moscow is around $4 or $5.

russia is trying to re structure its fleet to save money it will take years but it will in the end save billions they are trying to get rid of the old expencive subs and ships and bring in the new and also make the fleet smaller because russia no longer realy see's america as a threat.

you may say what does he know but if you look every one does it britain is getting rid of thier costly type 42's and replacing them with more capible cheaper units same with america france ect ect...

there could be more done but there could be more done everywhere what about the eathiopians or zimbabweans or other poor countrys i think we have enough millatery and i think every rich country should donate a weeks income to all the poor countrys then we truely might be equal.

CCIP

11-26-05, 01:03 PM

$600 a month... ouch. Although it's far better than a teacher :(

As far as the fleet - I really don't think Putin is on the wrong track here; but there's really a big problem with distribution of money to all government-supported professions in general and that's what worries me.

Russia is NOT poor. There's very encouraging economic indicators from there in the last few years - Putin has at least not dropped the ball when the oil prices started going up, and Russia has made a lot of money from this. Industrial production seems to have increased, and from the looks of it - all is good.

But the problem is that the benefits of this are going to, at best, 10% of the population; much of the money that's made goes abroad in various schemes. Meanwhile 90% of the populace is worse off.

And, of course, shockingly enough - despite the apparent economic uplift - it was only a few months ago that Putin had approved measures to cut pensions and benefits. That's what my tooth is, since I do have old relatives in Russia who've been seriously affected by this.

Sorry if I seem a bit bitter about this whole Russia thing. It is all pretty personal to me - if it weren't for the circumstances that the current government is perpetuating, I would still be there. :(

Happy Times

11-27-05, 11:27 AM

Would be nice to hear what scenarios have the people that voted "other".

Takeda Shingen

11-27-05, 11:45 AM

I voted other, and say:

Russia will continue to do what it has done since the formation of Muscovy. That is, consistantly lag behind the nations of the west and spend itself into the poorhouse in an attempt to catch up. There have always been slight increases in societal living, followed by great downturns, but this has been the general trend for the past 700 years, and Russian society and politics show no signs of deviating from this.

CCIP

11-27-05, 12:17 PM

Very good possibility, as much as I'd like to disagree - it is true. Russia, if anything, really has been following a very established historical pattern. The only thing is that the up-and-down turns lately have been more extreme - although it's true of the rest of the world, too.

One may wonder if the volatility of this up-and-down cycle might actually ruin Russia - if not on this downturn, then perhaps on the next? :hmm:

Type941

11-27-05, 02:29 PM

Hello,
If you observe what happens to free business leaders this is nothing more than dictatorship

Dude, you are not talking about the 'i made my billions on privatization, hihi" Hodarkowsky? I feel sorry for people holding this naive point of view, those so easily brainwashed by the 'free' western media. You guys should wise up about the economy in US and Europe, and about the deep sh*t it can end up in in 10 years time, and worry about that instead of 'geopolitical situation and freedom of press and democracy' in Russia.

Do you have anyone living in Moscow for example whom you can ask about these horrors? I have, and they laughed their arse off about the 'freedom of press', 'nationalism' and all that. Putin has done one thing for Russia than not many have - he gave it stability, which is quite a lot in post Yeltsin era where everything was robbed and stolen. But hey, it was democracy, and it was all free for all. Product - Hodarkovsky and Abramovich. Now in their direction, a lot would just spit.

Americans loved Yeltsin. He was easy to manipulate, gave off all little wealth russia had, did everything friend Bill told him to do, and was a cookoo. With Putin it's much harder, since most who spoken to him can't really say he's an idiot, a dicator, or anything. In fact, from american's themselves, when asked about Putin, all said they were quite impressed by him.

TteFAboB

11-27-05, 03:45 PM

Spit on them!

C'mon, if enough of us spit on them we can drown them to death! Who needs a "fair trial" or "freedom of press", those are corrupt western lies anyway! Let's just spit on the bastards!

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/372166/2/Camel_foaming_at_the_mouth.jpg

CCIP

11-27-05, 04:36 PM

Who needs a "fair trial" or "freedom of press"

I hate to sound like such a skeptic, but given the choice between "fair trial"/"freedom of the press" and putting food on the table, most people would choose the latter.

Never having lived in a society where people are faced with that sort of choice, I think people are too-easily dismissive of what it entails. I am not surprised Putin was chosen over the other alternatives. I don't like him one bit. I don't support his policies. But he is, essentially, the only stable option.

And don't get me started on Hodarkovsky or these types. I think "spit" on them, for me, is a little too mild a word.
Difference between Hodarkovsky and other 90's-privatization-kings?

Others shared the loot with the right people. He didn't.

Type941 is, unfortunately, right. Western-style democracy, at least in the form that it appeared in the 90's, has already failed in Russia.

Much like another purely Western idea called communism failed - and at about the same rate.

TteFAboB

11-27-05, 05:09 PM

I hate to sound like such a skeptic, but given the choice between "fair trial"/"freedom of the press" and putting food on the table, most people would choose the latter.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

So in the name of feeding the people's hunger for "Justice" we allow Putin to mildly skip a legal step or two in the name of stability. The purely Western idea called communism lives in the spirit of Beria. :up:

Takeda Shingen

11-27-05, 05:36 PM

CCIP is correct. Historically, Russia's greatest problems have occured when its leaders have attempted to imitate the manner of running things in the west. Politics in Russia are unlike that of any other nation. The same is said for its social problems. Ultimately, Russia will have to find Russian methods to solve Russian problems, whatever they may be.

That being said, I doubt I will live to see it. It seems that the west believes that it knows what is best for Russia. Worse, many of Russia's politicians and leaders also believe this.

Kapitan

11-27-05, 05:38 PM

thats odd putin dont during a summit in 2003 he told bush where to shove his ideologies :huh:

11-28-05, 04:09 AM

Hm, it's not that easy to say what will happen to Russia :hmm:
Until 2008, we'll continue that "strenghtening and centralisation". Oblasts' governors will be not elected by people, but appointed from Kremlin. Is it bad or good? Kremlin can sometime choose right people. But not alwas... Besides, Russians don't really trust in elections. First years of "democracy", when it was easy to buy votes and places, compomised the idea of free elections. Before Putin, reachest were winners. Now, "The Party" agressively moves in. It feels like soviet times... It's easy to manipulate Russian electorate. People haven't any expirience in democratic-type politics.
Who will come in 2008? I don't know. I think it will be sucessor of Putin. And everything will continue... Damn. No other parties is strong enough to lead the country.
This is politics.
In economics... Russian goverment, imo, make a great mistake now. We totally depend on oil prices. Today, it's high enough to create some economic growth. Some experts say that oil be no cheaper anymore - because world oil reserves running low. It can be good, but it's also bad: what shall we do when oil wells is dry? And anyway, strong economy is strong production and modern technologies. No real advance in heavy industry we can see. We have some techs and researchers from soviet times. But no real progress now... Damn again. Oil is not enough to build economy.
In socials... A great advance in big cities. "Middle class" is likely arises. But in countryside... Simply no advance from soviet times - is the best thing. In many places, there is degradation. Kolhoses were eliminated, many big factories closed, and people have nothing to do. Nothing except drinking... Alcoholism, imo, is the biggest trouble now.

So, the summary isn't bright. Though, Russians have great expirience in surviving...

Type941

11-28-05, 04:52 PM

Back to this Hodarkowsky thing. I've read parts from his 'work' - the Left Turn and Left Turn 2.

If you can read russian - read that. It's amazing. The guys is just taking a piss at the whole country and intelligence of anyone who can count. He's doing all this to position himself as a full alternative to Putin's 'team'.

What he's saying is he run Yukos successfully, therefore, he can run the country (as a company) with same success. Ha! you damn right ordinary people making 100 dollars a month spit in his direction.

Indeed too many people like to opine on Russia while naver having lived there and having imprressions on it from the following:

- Hollywood movies
- CNN / other western media
- Discovery Channel

I'm all for a dialogue and discussion, but it just pains me to debate when I see either a totally childish reply or one that's so biased it's not even funny.

Happy Times

11-29-05, 10:16 AM

Well we have established that many Russians accept the course the country is taking with Putin and his ex- KGB colleagues. Well, if that is what the majority wants.. :roll: What i would like to know is Russia going to start putting political and/or military pressure to its neigbours everytime they want something from them :-? The Russians have long tradition of gunboat diplomacy against its small neigbours. Or the worst case scenario, wanting to rebuild the Empire. These are ideas that are spoken by people in or close to Kreml. I think Finns would be stupid not to be concerned.

Kapitan

11-29-05, 12:04 PM

finland poland hungrey slovakia check rep. all the other bits inbetween should worry i think that is the eventual aim as putin said "the break up of the USSR was one that sadnd me and was a great disaster to our country"

CCIP

11-29-05, 03:56 PM

putin said "the break up of the USSR was one that sadnd me and was a great disaster to our country"

That quote is yet another media spin that utterly pisses me off.

Because what it's been interpreted as in the west is really something quite different from what Putin meant. I'm willing to wager that the overwhelming majority of Russians will agree with that.

As far as Putin, I would argue that we don't really have an idea of what his/their long-term aims are. I'm sometimes skeptical as far as whether they even have them.

CCIP

12-16-05, 03:18 PM

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but...

A really good quote I found from a BBC article (about presidential candidate Kasianov, Putin's former PM). Very, very accurate:

In the village of Panino near Kursk, a horse-drawn sled cuts its way over a path deep in snow. Here, in the Russian countryside liberal ideas receive an icy reception.

Ask night watchman Alexei what he associates with democracy, and he will tell you economic collapse and corruption.

"What good are democracy and freedom of speech when ordinary Russians are so poor?" Alexei says. "People like Kasyanov are rich because they robbed the state when they were in power."

Mikhail Kasyanov's biggest problem is not pressure from the Kremlin. It is public disillusionment with democracy. It threatens to make his road to the top a very lonely one indeed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4536206.stm

Etienne

12-17-05, 02:53 AM

In the end, it all comes down to Maslow's pyramid.

Food
Safety
Sex
Comfort
Self-realization

Or something like that. I'm too drunk to remember correctly.

Kapitan

12-17-05, 11:03 AM

CCIP your spot on when putin said that what he was saying is "these gits flushed our country down the pan if we didnt spend so much on a load of crap we'd be ok now"

Type941

12-17-05, 11:21 AM

CCIP your spot on when putin said that what he was saying is "these gits flushed our country down the pan if we didnt spend so much on a load of crap we'd be ok now"

For one more time for the poor souls who live by what CNN says.

Putin said in RUSSIAN this: "The break up of the soviet union was one of the biggest geopolitical tragedies for our country. Millions of russian citizens were left in neighboring republics without status, without rights, and as 2nd rate citizens."

Stop misqouting that, as you sound like another blood thirsty CNN journo selling the news. I understand russian - Putin never said that it was a great saddness for him that USSR broke up in general. His point was that it caused so many problems for the NATIVE russian speaking population that are now treated like mexican imigrants in US in countries like Ukraine, Latvia, etc. It's a problem for former war veterans, who are now being offered 2 thousand Euros by the fascist Latvian government to leave Latvia for Russia. The lived in Latvia for all their life, and now given 2k Euros to pack all their sh*t and go 'home'. Don't ever tell me about democracy in EU. Bloody hyppocrats. They would be in such deep hole without Russia they don't even know it.

A lot of 'small countries' suffer a napoleonic complex, but strangely, not ALL. Just certain countries, the most nationalistic, bitter about the past, and can't get over themselves-ones. They are like kids in a zoo, who are very happy throw food and sh*t at the bear in a cage, because they feel they are safe outside (NATO analogy). I can't think of a better comparison that the likes of Poland and Ukraine are doing now. The goverments, before you start jumping at me, the governments.

Happy Times, Finland will be soon taking leading role in EU, correct? Last thing I've read is the want to take full advantage of being the bridge between CIVILIZED EU and Russia in all the trading boom, and with China growth slowing down a bit. I guess you are in a minority, and that's good I reckon, with your nationalistic attitudes. But I know for you it's personal, that's why I don't want to seriously debate it with you as you have your own valid reasons to hate or dislike russia.