Super Tomcat or Super Hornet?

[Bort]

Which fighter would have been better for the Navy to choose during the early 90's when they were looking for the Tomcat sucessor? My opinion, the Super Tomcat AST21 for sure. More speed range and payload than the Super Bug and cheaper and in the fleet much faster than the -18E/F
Some links about both birds-
http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14x.htm

http://www.vectorsite.net/avhorn2.html

[Happy Times]

Bzzzzzzzz :P

[Kapitan]

F/A18 E/F/G the best ive flown these on flight sims and there alot better than a tomcat more monoverable smaller more agile and only the F and G versions can carry 2 pilots

rock on super hornets

[tycho102]

The F-14 was designed for the Phoenix. The engineers designed the missile, first, then the plane to carry and illuminate for it.

The F-18 was designed for all kinds of missions. F-14's cannot laser designate *any* targets. It cannot carry a laser pod. The A/B/C/D's couldn't designate their own targets; the E/F can. The E's and F's were designed to replace the outgoing F-14, as well as the KC-6. Fighters with phased arrays have absolutely no business in the world, today. Slewed radars, yes. But not phased. The EA-6B and the EC-2 are the next problem aircraft, and both are necessary to functioning of a carrier airwing.

And, fixed links! :ping:
http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14x.htm

http://www.vectorsite.net/avhorn2.html

[sonar732]

The Tomcat is a maintenance nightmare compaired to the Super Hornet...hence the replacement. Times have changed and that's another reason why the Tomcat is replaced...the mission isn't there anymore. No reason for having a fighter to attack multiple targets over 100 miles away with the disbanding of the former Soviet Union.

[Sulikate]

Bzzzzzzzz :P

:rock:

[Happy Times]

Bzzzzzzzz :P

:rock: BTW whats the latest news with the Brasilian search for a new fighter? Has it been decided?

[Bellman]

Fox Which fighter would have been better for the Navy to choose during the early 90's when they were looking for the Tomcat sucessor?

Cant agree with ''the mission isn't there anymore.'' The need for the projection of power is still there.
It just has to be finessed - A couple of Toms on station can dominate an airspace which means
the opponent cant mount recces or deploy radar effectively in certain situations.

Apart from the tactical options that the Phoenix opened up, the Tom was a more capable dogfighter than the F18.
But generaly given the all-round performance of the F18 in multi-role situations its not hard to see why
the Navy preferred this adaptability

I have to say I always found the F18 a great aircraft to fly in sims. :cool: :rock:

[Bort]

I think that some of you are't quite understanding what I meant by this poll. I'm not trying to compare the F-14A/B/D with the F/A-18E/F, rather the proposed F-14 upgrades that were put forwards that would have given the F-14 comparable capabilities to the then proposed super hornet.
Also-
The F-18 was designed for all kinds of missions. F-14's cannot laser designate *any* targets. It cannot carry a laser pod. The A/B/C/D's couldn't designate their own targets; the E/F can.
This is not true, during the mid-late 90's all remaining F-14A/B/D's in service, with the exception of the few TARPS capable birds assigned to each squadron, were modified to carry the LANTIRN FLIR and laser targeting pod. The F-14's performed precision strikes with LGB's in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq, in addition to maintaining air-to-air capability. Therefore for the past decade or so the Tomcat has been truly a multi-role platform, and with its recon abilities, even more flexible than the Hornet. In addition the F/A-18A/B/C/D's could designate targets for LGB's with their Knighthawk targeting pods. This is not a capability unique to the E/F.

[Wim Libaers]

Fighters with phased arrays have absolutely no business in the world, today. Slewed radars, yes. But not phased.

Why?

[Drebbel]

Hmm, I think the Dutch Navy can not really use eitther of those planes.

or am I missing something ?

:D

[TteFAboB]

BTW whats the latest news with the Brasilian search for a new fighter? Has it been decided?

Off-Topic gallore:

Yes, it has been cancelled because all the money is being handed-out to the poorest people in the poorest regions on the re-election strategy of the President.

It has been decided to purchase a few modern but used Mirage from the French Air Force, for a price that even though is fair to France is still not worth it, so we're replacing the old Mirages for used newer models, it's the worst possible choice considering how far better it would've been to transfer the technology and build these Mirages over here, it is also a complete disrespect with the Air Force considering they were NOT heard or asked on the purchase! Which is also a complete disrespect with the competitors of the original program which invested to bring planes down here for demostrations, paid for Officers to travel for demonstrations and sent their own representatives down here for interviews and negociations, and also spent on marketing, all for nothing.

This choice smells, Brazil is a client of France, we bought a useless Carrier from them, we bought without negociating a brand-new presidential executive Jet from them, now we buy used modern fighters from them, what the HECK! Then we get the "Year of Brazil in France"? I wonder why...

Anapolis, the largest Air Base of the country and the most important one as it defends the core of this country is doing an amazing job considering the cuts on their budget, we cannot put all our squadrons in the Air because there's no money to pay for Pilots and no money to pay for maintenance, we have Hangars full of planes eating dust because money is being wasted elsewhere.

The SIVAM project, which is the control of the Amazon Air Space by installing ground radars and putting a few AWACS in the air, plus the squadrons to enforce the control, has almost been shut down this year because the government IGNORED(!!!) it when working on the budget, the Air Force tried consistently to alert to the lack of funds to no avail., they look down upon the Military and did not listened to the calls. So the Air Force sent a FAX(!) to the Senate BEGGING for the funding, warning that if they don't get the money Raytheon will have to pull the plug and execute the "Banco do Brasil" which is a STATE OWNED BANK for christ's sake, they LOOSE regardless if they fund it or not! The Senate heard the appeal, quickly organized a session and managed to vote the funding on the same day.

Nothing else could be expected from the most incompetent, corrupt and paternalist government in the history of the country.

[sonar732]

My post stands firm...the records indicate that the F-14 was a maintenance nightmare and built in 1972. This was the main reason why the Super Hornet was picked...less $$$$$ for maintenace and one less person in the cockpit. The increase fuel capacity and lighter materials in the Super Hornet makes up for the loss of the Phoenix extended kill range.

[tycho102]

* Bort]

1. The F-14's performed precision strikes with LGB's in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq, in addition to maintaining air-to-air capability.

2. In addition the F/A-18A/B/C/D's could designate targets for LGB's with their Knighthawk targeting pods. This is not a capability unique to the E/F.



1. They dropped guided bombs, yes. But it was an EA-6B or an F-18, as well as infantry, doing the spotting. The F-14 has always had a FLIR pod capability, since they'd need it for interception, but when they were dropping bombs they had someone else spotting for them; sometimes it was the Airforce, sometimes the SEALS.

2. They can spot for other planes, but they cannot spot and drop. It was a limitation of the actual pod designed for the plane. It just couldn't handle the stress when the breeches fired and the plane jolted, and the avionics weren't programmed to allow it. The E's and F's can spot their own drops, which allows a lot more flexibility.


Wim: Phased arrays just cannot handle all of the modes that a slewed array can. It's just not versatile enough in a fighter or even strike aircraft. The world has just changed. No one is building massive bombers designed for 10,000 mile ranges. We've got the B-2 and B-1B, but good luck getting any kind of return off them.

[Kapitan]

no place on earth is more than 1500 miles from any water and no one is more than 2,400 miles from a major sea so im told

one tanker and a hand ful of F/A 18's from a carrier and you have wiped out the need for long range bombers

[Bort]

They dropped guided bombs, yes. But it was an EA-6B or an F-18, as well as infantry, doing the spotting. The F-14 has always had a FLIR pod capability, since they'd need it for interception, but when they were dropping bombs they had someone else spotting for them; sometimes it was the Airforce, sometimes the SEALS.
tycho102, I'm sorry but you're wrong about this. What you are thinking of is the Tomcats Infared Tracking System, which is mounted under the nose in some F-14A/B's while most of those tomcats have a TV camera instead. The F-14D mounts both of these systems but the key here is that this is an entirely different system than what I am talking about. The IR camera was designed for Air-to Air use only, primarily for finding and IDing soviet bombers without having to use radar. See this link for mare info
http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-chinpods.htm
What I am talking about is the LANTIRN pod that is removable and was fitted to Tomcats beginning in the mid 90's and is carried under the starboard glove pylon. This gives the Tomcats full capability to find, designate and drop on targets, independent of anything else. For more info see this linkhttp://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-lantirn.htm The LANTIRN has really transformed the F-14 into a truly multi-mission paltform. If you'd like to know more about how the F-14 w/LANTIRN worked in combat, I'd suggest you read Black Aces High, a great book about F-14s in Kosovo.

[Bort]

My post stands firm...the records indicate that the F-14 was a maintenance nightmare and built in 1972. This was the main reason why the Super Hornet was picked...less $$$$$ for maintenace and one less person in the cockpit. The increase fuel capacity and lighter materials in the Super Hornet makes up for the loss of the Phoenix extended kill range.
Look, of course any plane that has been banging on and off carrier decks for more than 25 years is going to have huge maintenance issues. Most articles I have read concering the maintenace headaches involved with the Tomcat these days point to structural fatigue being the major source of problems, which is probably common to most, if not all combat aircraft of that age. I never said the current F-14's shouldn't be replaced, only wether to replace them with a massively upgraded and probably new built Tomcat, or an upgraded and new built Hornet. Belive me, a brand new Tomcat with digital avionics similar to the Super Bug and with improved structure would no doubt be similar to the Super Hornet in ease of maintenance.

[Hellcat]

I'd have to agree with *FOX* on this one; If they were newly built Tomcat's with a total upgrade of all avionics (think of the diff between the old F18 C vs the Superbug), would certainly fill the "Fleet Defender" role it was designed for. Sure the phoenix may not be in service any more, but give me another plane with the endurance and speed of the F14 that is carrier capable.

[Wim Libaers]

Wim: Phased arrays just cannot handle all of the modes that a slewed array can. It's just not versatile enough in a fighter or even strike aircraft. The world has just changed. No one is building massive bombers designed for 10,000 mile ranges. We've got the B-2 and B-1B, but good luck getting any kind of return off them.

Really? As far as I know, phased arrays offer superior performance (due to the nearly instantaneous beam pointing ability) while having no moving parts that can break down, with main disadvantages being increased cost for the (complicated) electronics.

[XabbaRus]

Oh boy, tell you what go onto Strategy Page and say phased array isn't suited for fighters....

That could be funny.

[tycho102]

* Bort]The LANTIRN has really transformed the F-14 into a truly multi-mission paltform. If you'd like to know more about how the F-14 w/LANTIRN worked in combat, I'd suggest you read Black Aces High, a great book about F-14s in Kosovo.

I have heard otherwise, but I don't personally know. However, I know for certain that the A/B/C/D's could not spot their own targets. So, you're saying the F-14 had the capability to spot their own targets, and the F-18 didn't. That's one hell of an avionics upgrade.

I will also say that what you read in a civilian book isn't always the same as what the maintenance instruction manuals say, or what you experience when you're sitting in the cockpit.

On the topic of phased arrays, I stand by my opinion. Slewed arrays are superior for todays AA and AG missions.

[Bort]

Tycho, I don't know where you got the idea that I ever said the F-18's couldn't spot their own targets. In fact just a few posts ago I mentioned the Knighthawk FLIR pod. I have to say that the concept that the F-14 or the F-18 are unable to spot their own targets is absurd. Why on earth would anyone buy a FLIR pod that is unable to spot targets? The book Black Aces High that you are so skeptical about is primarily based on interviews with pilots and RIO's that flew over Kosovo in the late 90's, and they go to great length describing the operation of the LANTIRN in combat, including spotting targets and designating them. Please read the book before you challenge it's validity. As far as your opinion about phased arrays... lets not go there. :roll:

[TLAM Strike]

no place on earth is more than 1500 miles from any water and no one is more than 2,400 miles from a major sea so im told

one tanker and a hand ful of F/A 18's from a carrier and you have wiped out the need for long range bombers Use a A-6 or A-7 and you don't need the tanker! Hell they could be the tanker! :lol:

[Bort]

Use a A-6 or A-7 and you don't need the tanker! Hell they could be the tanker!

Good point TLAM strike! In my opinion the best possible solution to the Navy's needs would've been the advanced F-14 and the A-6F, which would have had digital avionics and GE F404 turbofans, the same kind as in the F-18, which would have given the A-6 even more range and payload. Too bad both programs were cancelled by Dick "five deferments" Cheney while he was SecDef. Dick also cancelled the A-12, pretty much dooming the Navy to the Super Hornet. The advanced F-14 and A-6F would provide vastly superior capability to the F-18C/E/F that we're stuck with now, and probably at a much lower cost. Thanks alot Dick.

[TLAM Strike]

Aggree with you 100% Bort, but I would have kept the A-7 as well. As my dad (a former E-3 with VA-122/212) likes to say “An A-7 Cosair could carry an A-6!”.

[Bort]

Yeah, the A-7 was a great plane, it's a shame nobody ever was interested in upgrading it. My uncle flew the Corsair II for VA-195 off the Kitty Hawk in the 70's, and as a reservist during the 80's. From the stories he tells, it was a truly great plane. :up:

[Sulikate]

BTW whats the latest news with the Brasilian search for a new fighter? Has it been decided?

Off-Topic gallore:

Yes, it has been cancelled because all the money is being handed-out to the poorest people in the poorest regions on the re-election strategy of the President.

It has been decided to purchase a few modern but used Mirage from the French Air Force, for a price that even though is fair to France is still not worth it, so we're replacing the old Mirages for used newer models, it's the worst possible choice considering how far better it would've been to transfer the technology and build these Mirages over here, it is also a complete disrespect with the Air Force considering they were NOT heard or asked on the purchase! Which is also a complete disrespect with the competitors of the original program which invested to bring planes down here for demostrations, paid for Officers to travel for demonstrations and sent their own representatives down here for interviews and negociations, and also spent on marketing, all for nothing.

This choice smells, Brazil is a client of France, we bought a useless Carrier from them, we bought without negociating a brand-new presidential executive Jet from them, now we buy used modern fighters from them, what the HECK! Then we get the "Year of Brazil in France"? I wonder why...

Anapolis, the largest Air Base of the country and the most important one as it defends the core of this country is doing an amazing job considering the cuts on their budget, we cannot put all our squadrons in the Air because there's no money to pay for Pilots and no money to pay for maintenance, we have Hangars full of planes eating dust because money is being wasted elsewhere.

The SIVAM project, which is the control of the Amazon Air Space by installing ground radars and putting a few AWACS in the air, plus the squadrons to enforce the control, has almost been shut down this year because the government IGNORED(!!!) it when working on the budget, the Air Force tried consistently to alert to the lack of funds to no avail., they look down upon the Military and did not listened to the calls. So the Air Force sent a FAX(!) to the Senate BEGGING for the funding, warning that if they don't get the money Raytheon will have to pull the plug and execute the "Banco do Brasil" which is a STATE OWNED BANK for christ's sake, they LOOSE regardless if they fund it or not! The Senate heard the appeal, quickly organized a session and managed to vote the funding on the same day.

Nothing else could be expected from the most incompetent, corrupt and paternalist government in the history of the country.

Thats really sad... I live near Anapolis and I wish I could go there and see some F-16, Rafale, or Sukhoi...