Modern Sub Question

[BaronVonSchnitzel]

I've got a sub story I'd like to share with the group. It's anecdotal and I can't verify its authenticity, but it doesn't seem terribly unrealistic. I'd appreciate the input of the people in the group, some of which have unboubtedly way more experience than me on this subject. Maybe I've read too many Tom Clancy novels, but here goes:

Apparently, during the 1980's Cold War, there was an American carrier battle group sailing somewhere, performing an exercise to determine the efficiency with which an attack submarine could operate itself in a stealthful fashion. Operating submerged, and with the remaining battle group trying to detect it, an American
attack sub surfaced parallel to the carrier and successfully launched a flare which landed on the deck of the nuclear powered carrier. The message was clear...if we had wanted to, we could have blown you out of the water, despite the efforts of the battle group there to protect the carrier. Does this sound realistic? What do you folks think?

[Observer]

Don't know about the first part...I haven't heard that story before. For the rest I doubt the boat surfaced, though I suppose it is possible. Battle group commanders tend to get real p*ssed when they are embarrassed and lose the carrier. Though it's more likely in the '80s when the safety of ship rules were more relaxed. They tightened them in the '90s after too many near misses and bumps in the dark.

As for launching a flare, yes. Landing on the deck, probably not. Depending on the boat, flares are usually launched from the 3" launcher (countermeasures space). I don't remember if the flares went airborne...I don't think so, but it's been too many years. And getting in close to kill the HVU (high value unit)? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

[microdiver]

I'd tend to doubt it. Dropping a flare on a carrier deck sounds like a huge safety hazard. Carrier decks tend to be full of very expensive and flamable aircraft. I'd think that a sub commander that launches a flare on one would be looking at a court martial.
There are plenty of much safer ways to prove your point that you could have sunk the carrier.

[supersloth]

suddenly popping up right in the middle of a crowd of thousand ton ships sounds kinda dangerous.

[Ula Jolly]

Should the objective of this exercise be to launch a flare on the carrier deck, then certainly the captain could have been equipped with what was needed to do this. However, I think it would be highly unlikely for an entire group of escorts and the carrier itself not to notice the approach of the submarine. If this was an exercise in which all the ships and their crews took part, everyone's ears would be glued to all hydrophones, and there's a chance there would be an awful lot of active sonar in use.
If the submarine was inside the group, the chances of detecting I think would be nil. But if it had to approach an outer ring of destroyers before reaching the well guarded carrier, only some very lucky maneuvering could hide the commander of that submarine.
If the group was moving at about 20-30 knots, the returns of active and passive sonar could very well have been washed out to the extent that the submarine could hide in front of the group, and surface once the group passed over it. I don't know how efficient active and passive sonar was around the eighties, though.
My point would be that I highly doubt this, but it is possible if you got the right kind of madman in the sub. :D

Launching a flare could very well have been done, that is if you used a flare GUN.
If that story is true, there would be more than t-shirts for that sub's commander and crew!

[Hartmann]

Drop the flare on the deck could be not possible, but the fact of a flare jumping out of the water in the middle of a task force means that the carrier or other ship are "sunk" :dead:

In the faklands war, a argentinian sub lurked near to the british task force and never was detected by ASW operations, despite the submarine attacks to the english ships . they fail for the dud torpedoes .

[supersloth]

its funny, this either meant the US sub force was very good, or the carrier fleet was not very good.

[BaronVonSchnitzel]

Should the objective of this exercise be to launch a flare on the carrier deck, then certainly the captain could have been equipped with what was needed to do this. However, I think it would be highly unlikely for an entire group of escorts and the carrier itself not to notice the approach of the submarine. If this was an exercise in which all the ships and their crews took part, everyone's ears would be glued to all hydrophones, and there's a chance there would be an awful lot of active sonar in use.
If the submarine was inside the group, the chances of detecting I think would be nil. But if it had to approach an outer ring of destroyers before reaching the well guarded carrier, only some very lucky maneuvering could hide the commander of that submarine.
If the group was moving at about 20-30 knots, the returns of active and passive sonar could very well have been washed out to the extent that the submarine could hide in front of the group, and surface once the group passed over it. I don't know how efficient active and passive sonar was around the eighties, though.
My point would be that I highly doubt this, but it is possible if you got the right kind of madman in the sub. :D

Launching a flare could very well have been done, that is if you used a flare GUN.
If that story is true, there would be more than t-shirts for that sub's commander and crew!

Yes, I believe this was an exercise in which all components of the battle group took part, and my understanding was that the submarine was able to do this with everyone else looking for him. Perhaps a bit of above surf vs. below surf friendly naval maritime rivalry.

[BaronVonSchnitzel]

I'd tend to doubt it. Dropping a flare on a carrier deck sounds like a huge safety hazard. Carrier decks tend to be full of very expensive and flamable aircraft. I'd think that a sub commander that launches a flare on one would be looking at a court martial.
There are plenty of much safer ways to prove your point that you could have sunk the carrier.

That's a very good point...there's many places on a carrier deck you wouldn't want a burning flare.

[BaronVonSchnitzel]

suddenly popping up right in the middle of a crowd of thousand ton ships sounds kinda dangerous.

Very true...but would that be impossible for a modern attack sub? I can't imagine the technology that goes into modern subs. But again, I've perhaps read too much Tom Clancy! :D

[BaronVonSchnitzel]

And getting in close to kill the HVU (high value unit)? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

I suppose that's the point of the story, if it is a true one. I appreciate your input, Observer!

I'm sure submariners are a very special breed, and I know that there are a few maverick submariners out there. I remember a recent story when an American sub captain lost his command after a collision which did extensive damage to the bow of his ship.

[Marhkimov]

I'm sure submariners are a very special breed, and I know that there are a few maverick submariners out there. I remember a recent story when an American sub captain lost his command after a collision which did extensive damage to the bow of his ship.
Maverick? Or stupid and reckless?

[BaronVonSchnitzel]

Maverick? Or stupid and reckless?

Certainly stupid and reckless. I'm certainly not defending this behavior. Just posing the question. :hmm:

[Marhkimov]

It's ok, I didn't mean anything by it.

[Rhodes]

There is a similar story with the portuguese sub,in a nato drill. The sub glue to a tanker or a merchant ship, near the keel to enter a harbour and attack the ships in that port. And did the same thing to exit. And they had success on this.
The aim of this drill was to penetrate the harbour and attack.
And our navy uses daphné class subs-ssk... :lol: :lol:

[Bill Nichols]

In the summer of 1977, my boat (USS Nautilus) was in the Med when something similar to the above (flare on the flight deck) happened. We were pretending to be a Soviet November-class SSN during NATO wargames. Our tactic was to stay shallow (a strong thermocline created a 'shadow zone' we could exploit) and use our ESM to 'home in' on the enemy taskforce. Eventually, we found ourselves 800 yards from the US aircraft carrier and still undetected. To simulate a torpedo launch, we would shoot a green flare out of our aft signal launcher. Our CO said he wanted to get close enough 'to put the flares on the flightdeck'. (We had had problems before, where our flares weren't seen by our victims, and we weren't given credit for our simulated attacks).

Anyway, at about 800 yards we started launching green flares as fast as we could. As you might expect, that got the attention of the ASW helos patrolling nearby! They started dropping soundmakers (simulated torpedos) on our position while we continued launching our flares (yes, the flares shoot up into the sky -- dumb luck that we didn't hit a helo :o ).

Every time we shot a flare, our umpire (a helicopter pilot temporarily assigned to us) rolled dice to see if we got a hit. We didn't stop until we had scored six 'hits' (enough to sink the carrier). We then went deep and 'got the hell out of Dodge'. Once clear, we came to PD to report our success! :arrgh!:

(Later, we found out that we were given credit for only one hit on the CV, which put its rudder out of commission for 20 minutes. Seems that it would have spoiled the game to have the carrier sunk :down: )


For you Sub Command / Dangerous Waters players, my mega-scenario, "Sicilian Wedding", is based in part on my experiences that summer in the Med. :D