Salman Rushdie

[tycho102]

Has something interesting to say about Kashmir. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1868264,00.html)

He's talking about the upcoming winter in the Himalayas, and over 100,000 people freezing to death (I imagine both Indian and Pakistani). To be completely honest, I have no compunction about aiding the Indians. The vast majority of Indians I've known have been decent people, even the really driven businessmen and physicians.

But the majority of Pakistani living in Kashmir are fueled by jihad; the same jihad that flys planes into buildings and loads up backpacks with TATP. I've heard it said the best that Pakistian can achieve is a police-state. Like remote New Zealand, over half of Pakistan is ruled by tribal law because "civilization" simply has not had time to spread to those areas.

If we save lives, but give them no other choice than to join the jihadists, then I feel we put ourselves in greater danger. If they have no other choice than a madarassa (or forced, at gunpoint, into jihad), then I feel it's a matter of Allah's will that they will die. Had the jihadists been more interested in constucting and preparing for this kind of disaster, then Allah might have willed them to live. As it is, their focus on killing the enemy has left them vulnerable to the ravages of weather.

There is something to be said for Natural Selection, here. Yahweh and Allah might take a day off, but Natural Selection doesn't.

I think it's an issue worth a bit of discussion.

[Skybird]

Charity is a major virtue in Islam, and the community of the Ummah considers itself to be a superior example of how to organize and live in a community. Let's see how the rich Gulf nations and Saudi Arabia perform with regard to their Muslim brothers. The needed ressource they have. If also the willingness - is something different.

[Konovalov]

Firstly my wife's family originated from the region that was affected, Azad Kashmir (Pakistani side of Kasmir). I have met so many people within her family that hae come from that region and they are not Salafists or Wahabs. They are just plain bloody Muslim and more importantly human beings who are trying to get by in this world. +80,000 are now dead and there are now another 100,000 facing death as a reslt of the fastly oncoming winter.

What you suggest or imply tycho102 is nothing short of disgusting. Intentionally not giving aid or not feeding and providing shelter ad medical treatment to 100,000 people on the basis that they are Pakistani and not Indian with the intent to just let them die is NOT natural selection or Allah's will as you like to put it. What you suggest is nothing short of barbaric. Also by the way whilst the greatest loss of life was on the Pakistani controlled side of Kashmir, those Indians that have been effected are both Muslim, Hindu, and a very small minority are Budhist and Seihk.

I really don't know what else to say here. Human life obviously has a value on it based on ethnicity, politics, religion. While you might view this as a "f*&k em" situation where you would like to just see people roll over and die I think that this is a great opportunity for India and Pakistan along with the international community to make further progress on the issue of Kashmir.

[Skybird]

Okay, then we can expect to see petrodollars flowing into the region en masse, and aids on helicopters from Iran, Indonesia and the Gulf as well. I just wonder about the delay that keep them so long.

[Konovalov]

Charity is a major virtue in Islam, and the community of the Ummah considers itself to be a superior example of how to organize and live in a community.

Actually Zakat is one of the five pillars of Islam. That is how bigger importance it plays in Islam though it's never mentioned here. :roll:

Let's see how the rich Gulf nations and Saudi Arabia perform with regard to their Muslim brothers. The needed ressource they have. If also the willingness - is something different

The best and the worst nations. (http://www.oxfam.org.uk/press/releases/asian_quake_281005.htm#table) Hmm. I bet many ME nations are way off the mark. It is a different story with the actual citizens but for the governments (if you could call them that) it is as a different story.

[The Avon Lady]

Clerics issue fatwa against coming down from hilltops (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005%5C11%5C09%5Cstory_9-11-2005_pg7_7)

* State minister says 50,000 Allai survivors could freeze to death

By Iqbal Khattak

BALAKOT: Clerics in Allai area of Battagram have reportedly issued a fatwa forbidding people from descending the hilltop and a federal minister on Tuesday warned that 50,000 people or more in the Allai area could die if they do not come down.

The people of Allai have so far not descended from the hilltop and their reluctance largely stems from a reported fatwa by some local clerics that it was un-Islamic to flee from a disaster zone. Another reason for people refusing to come down to live in the tent villages in the valley was the fear of local politicians that they might lose potential voters if the people decided to quit the area for good.

“The lives of 40,000 to 50,000 people are at stake. They will freeze to death if they continue to stay on the hilltop,” said Engineer Amir Muqqam, the state minister for water and power, while talking to Daily Times after visiting the earthquake areas to review the ongoing relief operations in Balakot. Bad weather interrupted the helicopter visit of the minister, where he was scheduled to meet the quake survivors in order to persuade them to descend.

“What makes me worry most is that the Allai people are still reluctant to come down,” he said. “They cannot live through the harsh cold weather in the donated tents,” the minister said.

“There is a lot of negative propaganda in the area,” Muqqam said. The minister said that he had made all efforts to allay the fears of the people but he was only partially successful in his efforts.

[P_Funk]

Has something interesting to say about Kashmir. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1868264,00.html)

He's talking about the upcoming winter in the Himalayas, and over 100,000 people freezing to death (I imagine both Indian and Pakistani). To be completely honest, I have no compunction about aiding the Indians. The vast majority of Indians I've known have been decent people, even the really driven businessmen and physicians.

But the majority of Pakistani living in Kashmir are fueled by jihad; the same jihad that flys planes into buildings and loads up backpacks with TATP. I've heard it said the best that Pakistian can achieve is a police-state. Like remote New Zealand, over half of Pakistan is ruled by tribal law because "civilization" simply has not had time to spread to those areas.

If we save lives, but give them no other choice than to join the jihadists, then I feel we put ourselves in greater danger. If they have no other choice than a madarassa (or forced, at gunpoint, into jihad), then I feel it's a matter of Allah's will that they will die. Had the jihadists been more interested in constucting and preparing for this kind of disaster, then Allah might have willed them to live. As it is, their focus on killing the enemy has left them vulnerable to the ravages of weather.

There is something to be said for Natural Selection, here. Yahweh and Allah might take a day off, but Natural Selection doesn't.

I think it's an issue worth a bit of discussion.

I'm sorry but I find your argument to be rather offensive. This concept that we shouldn't be merciful to human beings in need because they might not agree wqith our politics or might be our "enemies" is repulsive. A human being is a human being, period. And this idea of "naturnal selection" is shocking. I thought that we, as members of the "civilized world", had grown past this genocidal nature. This kind of social darwinism is an excuse to turn a blind eye. ALso the assertion that everyone is Pakistan is either a Jihadist or as good as is a dangerous generalization which is ignorant and foolish. Were all the people living in Nazi germany Nazis? No! Not even all of the SS were true Nazis. To write off bulk numbers of human beings in one stroke is dangerous and even evil. THis world has seen enough suffering and handing out charity based on the principle of "so whathave you done for me lately" is barbarous and inhuman.

[Kapitan]

remember your *** a salmon

[The Avon Lady]

remember your *** a salmon
Did you mean: "Salman, watch your 6"? :D

[Abraham]

I think we have a Christian duty to respond as much as we can to disasters, regardles if the victims are our enemies or friends. Having said that, I realise that many factors influence the charity of the donators. Two disasters within one year, one very visable, one obscure, certainly make for a different reaction.
However, leaving the victims without aid to die, like Tycho102 suggest, is for me totally unacceptable.
On the other hand, if the victims want to follow Fatwah's of stupid imams, that's their responsability then...

[Sixpack]

I appreciate Tycho's candour.

Yes, it's a radical position but also a very understandable one.

Let the Arab countries handle it, or include a Bible in every aid kit (and see what happens to the Good Books next ;) .

And remember, in WW2 the Allied (the golden generation) didnt make no bones about levelling cities containing thousands and thousands of innocent civilians. It was considered one of the right things to do in order to win the war against Nazi-Germany.

I guess some people here don't agree there is a war going on.

[The Avon Lady]

Let the Arab countries handle it, or include a Bible in every aid kit (and see what happens to the Good Books next ;)
NEXT!
Saudi jailed for discussing the Bible (http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20051114-015138-3548r.htm)
November 14, 2005

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) -- A court sentenced a teacher to 40 months in prison and 750 lashes for "mocking religion" after he discussed the Bible and praised Jews, a Saudi newspaper reported yesterday.

Al-Madina newspaper said secondary-school teacher Mohammad al-Harbi, who will be flogged in public, was taken to court by his colleagues and students.

He was charged with promoting a "dubious ideology, mocking religion, saying the Jews were right, discussing the Gospel and preventing students from leaving class to wash for prayer," the newspaper said.

Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, strictly upholds the austere Wahhabi school of Islam and bases its constitution on the Koran and the sayings of the prophet Muhammad. Public practice of any other religion is banned.

A U.S. State Department report criticized Saudi Arabia last week, saying religious freedoms "are denied to all but those who adhere to the state-sanctioned version of Sunni Islam."

The newspaper said Mr. al-Harbi will appeal the verdict.

A similar case was cited in the State Department's International Religious Freedom Report for 2004.

"During the period covered by this report, a schoolteacher was tried for apostasy, and eventually convicted in March of blasphemy; the person was given a prison sentence of 3 years and 300 lashes. The trial received substantial press coverage," the report said.

A 2003 report by the U.S. Commission on Religious Freedom, the world's only government-sanctioned entity to investigate and report religious-freedom violations, named Saudi Arabia as the world's biggest violator of religious liberties.

The commission took the country to task for "offensive and discriminatory language" disparaging Jews, Christians and non-Wahhabi Muslims found in government-sponsored school textbooks, in Friday sermons preached in prominent mosques, and in state-controlled Saudi newspapers.

For example, in 2003, Crown Prince (now King) Abdullah reacted to the killing of six Westerners by terrorists in Yemen by saying he thought Zionism was behind them.

In Saudi Arabia, the public practice of any religion other than Islam is illegal; only Muslims can be Saudi citizens; one of the Saudi king's titles is "custodian of the two holy mosques"; proselytizing for any religion other than Sunni Islam is barred; and Mecca, Islam's holy city, is forbidden to all non-Muslims.

For years, Saudi Arabia also imposed restrictions, or persuaded the U.S. government to impose restrictions, on American troops defending the country during and after then-Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's 1990-91 occupation of Kuwait.

For example, U.S. postal and customs officials have barred mailing materials "contrary to the Islamic faith," including Bibles. The U.S. military also has required female service members to wear a long, black robe called an abaya when traveling off base in Saudi Arabia. Both regulations were rescinded or clarified after public outcry based on reporting in the U.S. media.

[Abraham]

I was tempted to say: Back to the Dark Ages!
I should say: Still in the Dark Ages!
Really difficult to respect a religion - not individual members if they distance themselves from this - that practizes such barbarity.
We can continue to ask: "Islam, go clean your own house!" but it seems that Mohamed didn't provide for a cleaning lady...

[The Avon Lady]

Just lovely: :nope:
Quake orphans ‘adopted’ for jihad (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1869841,00.html)

CHILDREN orphaned by the Kashmir earthquake are being “adopted” by terrorist groups that hope to train them to fight in the jihad, or holy war, writes Dean Nelson.

Pakistan’s leading human rights organisation, the Ansar Burney Welfare Trust, said jihadi groups fighting the Indian government were taking orphans off the streets and putting them in training camps.

The organisation said it also had evidence that sympathetic government officials were passing children on to the jihadis to be looked after.

The popularity of the Islamic militants has risen sharply since the earthquake struck on October 8, killing more than 87,000 people.

The militants were among the first to arrive with aid at some of the worst affected villages. Their organisation and ability to commandeer lifting equipment and tents have generated significant new support. But according to human rights campaigners they are using their new popularity to smuggle weapons and recruit the young and vulnerable.

“We have heard from very reliable sources and seen with our own eyes that orphaned and lost children are being taken by jihadi organisations in northern Pakistan to be trained,” said Fahad Burney, of the trust.

Jamaat-ud Dawa, one of the largest jihadi groups in Pakistan, has called openly for orphans to be handed over for an “Islamic education”.

Pakistan moved quickly following the quake to ban adoptions after aid agencies warned of child trafficking.

Another hazard facing children is pneumonia, which is taking its toll among the 750,000 survivors living in tent camps. Action Against Hunger said it was now seeing one or two cases every day, and was aware of some children dying from the illness.

Additional reporting: Mohammad Shehzad

[Abraham]

It's a blessing that SOMEBODY takes good care of those little orphans...

[Skybird]

(...) or include a Bible in every aid kit (...)

:rotfl: Sadist...! :rotfl:

[Konovalov]

Really difficult to respect a religion - not individual members if they distance themselves from this - that practizes such barbarity.
We can continue to ask: "Islam, go clean your own house!" but it seems that Mohamed didn't provide for a cleaning lady...

Well let me quickly offer my strongest condemnation before I am labelled as some sort of sympathiser. Seriously wasn't this topic about donating or not donating money to charity on the basis of a persons religion? Things seem to be going off topic as they always do.

[Abraham]

Really difficult to respect a religion - not individual members if they distance themselves from this - that practizes such barbarity.
We can continue to ask: "Islam, go clean your own house!" but it seems that Mohamed didn't provide for a cleaning lady...

Well let me quickly offer my strongest condemnation before I am labelled as some sort of sympathiser. Seriously wasn't this topic about donating or not donating money to charity on the basis of a persons religion? Things seem to be going off topic as they always do.
Congratulations with your 2000th post, mr. Sea Lord.

You don't have to offer any condemnation, because you are a modern open-minded Western Muslim and non of them supports sutch barbary.
I meant to say - with a joke about a cleaning woman - that any religion including Islam needs a form of excommunication or a different kind of means to distance itself from barbaric practizes by fanatics, committed in its name. It further proves that Islam or any religion ruling a State, leads to unholy consequences.
Islam needs either a Reformation, an Enlightment, to re-invent itself.
If something like this would be done in the name of Christ in any country, Christianity all over the world - including me - would protest and distance itself from it. We are living in the 21st century, aren't we. I would conside it a smudge on my religion and be ashamed.
Is this the ultimate freedom of religion we can expect from Islam and the Sharia?
Or is it a necessety for Islam to defend itself that frenetic against the slightest form of open-mindedness...
Do Muslims world-wide not react to this?
Do they condone it?
Muslims who sit and watch can't claim that they are any better or that it's not their Islam, because it actually is... '

Or am I mistaken here?

[Skybird]

I meant to say - with a joke about a cleaning woman - that any religion including Islam needs a form of excommunication or a different kind of means to distance itself from barbaric practizes by fanatics, committed in its name. It further proves that Islam or any religion ruling a State, leads to unholy consequences.
Islam needs either a Reformation, an Enlightment, to re-invent itself.
If something like this would be done in the name of Christ in any country, Christianity all over the world - including me - would protest and distance itself from it. We are living in the 21st century, aren't we. I would conside it a smudge on my religion and be ashamed.
Is this the ultimate freedom of religion we can expect from Islam and the Sharia?
Or is it a necessety for Islam to defend itself that frenetic against the slightest form of open-mindedness...
Do Muslims world-wide not react to this?
Do they condone it?
Muslims who sit and watch can't claim that they are any better or that it's not their Islam, because it actually is... '

Or am I mistaken here?

Hm, I thought my essay would be of help. But when you still ask these questions in this way and have Islam in mind as the receiver, it probably was not. Islam has no equivalent in Western culture, as far as I am aware of Western history. Islam is not the Muslim's version of western understanding of christian religion and Western national theory, like you translate one word linear from Dutch into english into german. It is more liike the impossebiltiry to make lienar translation from Chinese into Western languages. Islam is itself, and simply different from the categopries you use. YOU CANNOT TRANSLATE THE ONE DETAIL ON A LINEAR BASIS INTO THE OTHER, you cannot get answers from it if you don't ask the questions in it's own language, it's own thinking patterns, it's own categories. That way your consideration/questions are aimed into empty sky, somehow. Also: if you ask in it's own language, the answer necessarily will not fit into Western context. you try to use Western categories on something that by definition does not fit these categories. It's like using a Geiger counter - to do a magnetical analysis. Wrong tool you choosed, because probably your concept of what magnetism is was wrong (it is not a form of radioactivity).

[Abraham]

@ Skybird:
I basicly agree with what you're saying.
That way your consideration/questions are aimed into empty sky, somehow. Also: if you ask in it's own language, the answer necessarily will not fit into Western context.My questions were a response to Konovalov's reaction on my earlier posting. I know Konovalov as a Western Muslim who is disgusted by terrorism. Somehow I find this state sponsered Muslim terror. I wanted to know how he can defend sharing a religion with people like this. Are they part of the Ummah or is he? If so, how can he?
I am seriously interested how modern people can convert to Islam, given that Islam is not a religion that claims the human soul, but a religion that comes with a set of worldly rules (Sharia) that claims a theocracy. Furthermore its moral, political, social, cultural and economic thinking has hardly develloped in the last 13 centuries and its concept clearly has lost touch with Modernity, the West or whatever you call it.
I see Islam as a religion in a deep crisis.
Furthermore the essays by progressive US Muslim theologists that I read speak of a "challenge" for Islam to connect with modern society, which in my view points out that they are not sure Islam can survive in a modern society either.
I am not saying Islam itself will not survive, though, because its message will provide many poor with hope, just as long as its habitat is not free and democratic.
Maybe it will split, but something is bound to happen...

[snowsub]

[
Like remote New Zealand, over half of Pakistan is ruled by tribal law because "civilization" simply has not had time to spread to those areas.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
now where's Kiwi_2005 :hmm:

Yep, can't trust those Maori's :-j :-j

But back on topic:
My opinion is both India and Pakistan have caused the kashmiri problem, I'd like it to be a independant nation but I doubt that's going to happen.
As such the kashmiri people should have to freeze to death just casue they've been put in no-win situation beyond they're control. Regardless of any individual kashmiri's political or religious opinion.

Snowsub

[tycho102]

On the issue of Muslim aid, it's a question of where the money goes. AK-47's are just as charitable these days, with Muslims charities, as a box of food. It seems that there's a lot of leeway on that issue...80%/20% the last time I heard anyone guess.

Fortunately, there weren't reliant on electricity or pumped water, so that makes the job a bit easier. The problem is the quake destroyed a bunch of roads. Right now, it's basically 4x4 everywhere because the dirt roads (and the few paved roads) have been upset. From the few shows I've watched on Kashmir, cross country up there is pretty decent. Not much different than Montana in the winter, except for all the boulders and rockbeds.

It's not a question of who is responsible for helping these people. It's not something you just pass the responsibility off onto someone else and go about your life. I'm talking about American aid. I'm talking about what private citizens are capable of doing, not what the federal government is doing. We have got tents that are insultated enough to withstand -40C environment, and we could send a whole damn bunch of them. Tens of thousands. We've got MRE's out the wazoo (millions), although I think it IS pork that's inside them; the single one I've ever eaten in my life had processed meat in them, and I would guess it was pork. We could still send other food, like cereal, pre-cooked dry soybeans, processed cheese, crackers. We've got plenty of lightweight clothing (shoes, socks, coats, pants, shirts, caps designed for that those kinds of conditions) that we could send.

I'm not talking about capability, I'm talking about effect. I don't blame myself, I blame the jihadists for making me question the effect of helping these people. And of course, not helping these people.

[Abraham]

@ Tycho102;
That sounds better than your opening statement on this posting, which I found quite inhumane.

On Dutch TV I heard a Pakistani "complain", while carrying a huge bag with a lettering saying: 'RICE from the USA' that more help was coming from non-Muslims than from his Muslim-brethern.
The West should (and probably does) realize what a lasting positive impression it can make on the hearts and minds of victims by being nothing but humane.
It might even save a few F-22's or a DDX a couple of years from now...
What a bargain!