Korean air 007 should it have been shot down?

[Kapitan]

a korean air lines departing alaska i belive was shot down over the sakalin islands in eastern russia some time back in the 70's i think it was (bit sketchy on this bit)

the aircraft apparently drifted off course for no reason and the result was that KE007 was shot down 60 seconds before entering international airspace.

should KE 007 have been shot down?


my view:

obvious but;

yes she should have the pilot made no mayday calls to say he was off course nor did he attempt to correct the situation and nether did he head soviet warnings to alter course.

i belive the russians made the correct choice in shooting down KE007 as it was more than likely a spy plane working for US inteligence flying over known enforced restricted airspace.

KE007 was shot down by MIG 23 fighters two missiles were fired at the 747 and no one survived.

yet should the captain have made the mayday call he could have been escorted to near by vladivostok international airport and after an inspection could have proceaded on his was escorted of course.

he chose not to do this and there fore ignored warnings from both aircraft and ground that unless he changed course action would be taken and it was.

KE007 was shot down after violating enforced restricted and terratorial airspace which for any civil or forign jet is against international law as a country has a right to claim sovrign airspace and sea space.

KE007 was shot down less than one minuet from international airspace i agree with the shooting down of this aircraft.

lets face it america would have done the same

[bradclark1]

Sounds like you are trying to stir the pot Kapitain :roll:

[The Avon Lady]

Sounds like you are trying to stir the pot Kapitain :roll:
More like stirring brain neurons that have been dormant for a few decades. :damn:

[Subnuts]

This ain't gonna end pretty.

But I bet it'll end soon... :roll:

[Kapitan]

before we go any further i want to say that i emplore that no flaming is intended in this posts just honest opinions and then a debate.


if it does get out of hand il ask a moderator to shut it down i hope it wont were all decent folk so im sure we can keep level heads

p.s wheres skybirds essays when you need them

[August]

i belive the russians made the correct choice in shooting down KE007 as it was more than likely a spy plane working for US inteligence flying over known enforced restricted airspace.


Do you have any evidence for this belief?

[Kapitan]

the fact the plane dog legged rather than fly in straight line gives some indication and the fact the aircraft was notified many times by russian controlers and that they knew it was restricted and enforced air space.

where is not the proof ?

[AG124]

What about the Iranian air liner that was shot down by a US cruiser in the mid 1980s? Or the French air liner shot down by Israel in 1973? Both of those had ignored warnings too; In the US case, they weren't aware that it was an air liner until it had been shot down, the the Israelite case, they were trying to fire warning shots I believe, but hit the plane by mistake.

I'm not trying to add to a flame war, just trying to get rid of my 'Sparky' avatar, which I have at this time. :(

[Konovalov]

I'm not trying to add to a flame war, just trying to get rid of my 'Sparky' avatar, which I have at this time. :(

Come on. That Sparky avatar isn't so bad except for the fact that you look like you have been out in the sun way too long. :D

[Kapitan]

well in all cases violation of restricted airspace should lead to any plane being shot down the sakahlin island were and still are a very sensative area the russians do not tollorate any violation into that airspace and its well documented throughout the world.

violation of airspace is and can be seen as an act of war

[AG124]

The worst thing about the avatar is the name - sounds like the ship's mascot :rotfl:. Better than Bilge Rat or the dreaded hooded medic though. :know:

[AG124]

OH DEAR GOD - It just happened! Talk about irony. :o

(I just got 'promoted' to medic, now I miss being Sparky :rotfl: ).

I will post until it is gone.

[AG124]

In the three airliner situations, maybe we should consider knowledge of the planes' identities. Did the Soviets know what they were firing at? I have heard about this incident, but not the details. The Americans did not know they were shooting at a passenger plane until the wreckage was found.

[Happy Times]

What if these would have been seen as acts of war? :roll: , http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/1101979762207 , http://english.people.com.cn/english/200104/12/eng20010412_67519.html , http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1195150&C=europe , http://www.baltictimes.com/art.php?art_id=13608 , nice :up:

[Happy Times]

Were are these people? http://www.rescue007.org/passengers.htm Were they operating the INTEL eguipment or are they just made up? http://www.rescue007.org/grenfells.htm Wouldnt want to argue with their families about this.. :-?

[Marcantilan]

An SU 15 attacked KAL 007, not Mig-23´s.

And It was a terrible mistake. The plane could be forced to land, but was shot down without proper warning (no hand signals from the fighter pilot, no tracer bullets).

New evidence suggest that malfunction of navigation aids set KAL 007 off course.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/mcdonald/kal/kal1.htm

[TLAM Strike]

Did the 747 ever acknowledge it was entering restricted airspace or send a mayday? It’s possible that their radio was out or the crew was unconscious due to loss of oxygen. :hmm:

[August]

the fact the plane dog legged rather than fly in straight line gives some indication and the fact the aircraft was notified many times by russian controlers and that they knew it was restricted and enforced air space.

where is not the proof ?

All that proves is there was a civilian aircrew made an error in navigation that was subsequently corrected, hence the dog leg straight on to their destination. As for notification from Russian ground control who knows? There is no evidence

The US has the most advanced surveillance capabilities in the world, there would be no need to use a foreign owned airliner full of civilians to spy on the Russians.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Mr. Schlossberg runs a very informative website. And I voted no.

PD

[Kapitan]

well radar and communication recordings are still held by the russians.

KE007 was observed by the russians as being wildly off course the crew would have been warned no doubt about it russia wouldnt go willy nilly shoot down a plane for the sake of it there would have to be good reason.

the pilot who shot down KE007 did admit some years back on T.V that he did try to establish hand contact with the pilots but was unable to due to the dark.

america uses survailance in real unorthadox ways its not unusual for civilians to get caught up in the mess because america uses civilians to thier advantage some times.

[XabbaRus]

OK First I think the poll questions were badly written.

Second I have read a lot on this incident and I don't think KAL 007 was on a covert spying mission for the US.

From all the evidence I have read the INS system was not set correctly and thus the autopilot was off course. The pilots were unaware of this and thought the aircraft was on the correct course.

Also MiG 23s were sent up but couldn't find it.

The Su-15 did fire warning shots but were unanswered. Also the tail light that illuminates the tail and the insignia was not working.

Also there were RC-135 recon flights in the area, big 4 engine planes too based on the 707....at night with few lights you could get mixed up.

So the Russians probably believed it was a spy flight and shot it down after it did not respond. Also it is clearly marked on all flight maps that that area is restricted airspace and violators will be shot down.

That website about rescue the survivors of 007 is bull****. Nothing but conspiracy crap. I went to that website not long after it had been around and they had an forum to post comments and questions. I registered and posted that I disagreed with them and presented the evidence that they refute. I also asked them to provide their sources and basically poo pooed their theory. And I did it in a constructive way.

Well I went back a couple of weeks later to find that the forum had gone and that feedback and requests for info was to be directed to their e-mail address.

[The Avon Lady]

america uses survailance in real unorthadox ways its not unusual for civilians to get caught up in the mess because america uses civilians to thier advantage some times.
Please substantiate this.

[Happy Times]

That website about rescue the survivors of 007 is b.s.. Nothing but conspiracy crap. I went to that website not long after it had been around and they had an forum to post comments and questions. I registered and posted that I disagreed with them and presented the evidence that they refute. I also asked them to provide their sources and basically poo pooed their theory. And I did it in a constructive way. Mind doing it again? :hmm:

[Spoon 11th]

"The closest witness to the incident, the Soviet pilot who fired the missile, later confirmed that international standards for interception had not been followed, and that he had been instructed by military authorities to claim on television that he had fired warning shots when in fact, he had not."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_KAL-007

[XabbaRus]

Hmmm, a I suppose with that quote you are trying to say I wasn't constructive.

Well being at work I don't have time but I made my point to the people at that website.

It's just seeing that stuff being brought up really gets my goat.

[The Avon Lady]

It's just seeing that stuff being brought up really gets my goat.
They're escaping! Someone stop them! :o

http://www.kash.net/alaska/pagesimages/SeldoviaFiles/July4th/parade5.jpeg

[XabbaRus]

Very funny...

But seriously I think the survivors of KAL007 is another case of conspiracy theorists picking up on threads and letting themselves be deceived.

I would like to know if they saw the original Russian releases and who did the translation work.

My ultimate opinion is that the shoot down was a mistake that shouldn't of happened. There was no spying mission and there were no survivors.

[Kapitan]

no plane no survivors no problem <<<< way the russians though of it anyway

[U-552Erich-Topp]

:) You sure the soviet pilot wasn't trigger happy?????

[Terrax]

I saw a documentary on this years ago. It seems to be a series of mistakes for the airliner. According to the documentary, the SU15 pilot tried to make eye contact with the airliner pilots but didn't, because they all had their heads down, frantically working with the equipment in the cockpit. The fighter pilot radioed this to his Soviet ground controller’s officer, whom interpreted this as working with the planes supposed spy gear. The fighter pilot was ordered to fire warning shots. At the same time the SU15 fire warning shots, the pilots of the airliner realized there was an equipment malfunction and they had lost altitude. So at the same time the warning shots were fired, the airliner suddenly gained altitude. As a result, the airliner pilots didn't see the warning shots since they were below the pilot’s line of sight, and the Soviet ground controllers took this act as evasive action.

The pilot was ordered to shoot down the airliner his ground control intercept officer. The pilot was in the documentary, and he said he didn't want to shoot the airliner down and wanted to try to make eye contact with the pilots again, and told his GCI officer this. He was again ordered to shoot the airliner down, and when he expressed his reluctance to do so, he was told to think about his family, and to do his duty. He took this as a threat, follow orders, or you family will suffer. He followed his orders and shot the airliner down.

The documentary goes on to say that the airliner would re-entered International airspace in a few minutes, and that was the reason the GCI officer wanted the plane shot down immediately. The fighter pilot said after the plane was hit, it started a downward spiral that lasted 3 or 4 minutes before impact with the ocean. That's a long time to know you are going to die, provided you weren't rendered unconscious by the g-forces. In the end, I think the Soviets did it because they could. Legally, they were within their rights to shoot the airliner down. The families of the victims ranted and protested, and but there wasn't anything they could do to the Soviets. Just another causality of the Cold War.

[Kapitan]

think it was the same documentary i saw and plus that is exactly what i wanted to say

[Happy Times]

I cant see anything that couldnt be true in that website. I have no illusions about USSR. The country was sick, bizarre, and generally hard to understand with logic. The CIA never saw the collapse for exsample because how hard Russia is to analyze, even to this day :-?

[I-25]

i have read documents and read that the russians went to the crash site right after the crash an recover NO bodies or saw any

[XabbaRus]

But on the other hand it is one hell of a theory.

The regime in the USSR might have been extremely secretive and beligerant but even if the passengers had survived I don't think it would have been in the USSR's interests to hold onto them for so long. Also why didn't anyone make a fuss after it happened? Why now have these theories just come to light in recent years?

In terms of Cold War politics it would have been a great chance for US govt to have a go at the USSR.

Also considering that the North Koreans have been holding onto Japanese kidnapped and that got discovered and confirmed, I would have thought the same would have happened with these passangers as the USSR at that time was no where near as closed as NK is now.

What Terrax said is pretty much what I posted those years ago to their forum.

Oh and it was the regime that was sick not the country.

[Kapitan]

well said xabbarus

[Damo1977]

i belive the russians made the correct choice in shooting down KE007 as it was more than likely a spy plane working for US inteligence flying over known enforced restricted airspace.


Surprise, Surprise, 'Radio Russia' believes it was a spy plane....The Russians were never at fault in history according to 'Radio Russia'. Get over it, the Commies lost, ain't coming back. But I will give the Commies one thing, the 'War on Communism' was better then this 'War on Terrorism' crap. How da fuk our we meant to defeat terrorism? Its been with us for hundreds of years.

[XabbaRus]

Excuse me I am not Russian. Just studied the country for a long time aswell as living there, speaking the language and marrying a nice Russian girl.

I don't pretend that Russia did nothing wrong and that they were all good and full of socialist roses.

Should they have shot down KAL007, of course not...however there were mistakes on both sides.

KAL007 was flying through restricted airspace, that is marked on aviation maps. Somehow the INS got set wrongly. Now there were Rc-135s operating in the area, so of course SOVCOM were going to be jumpy anyway.

The only bit that I thikn could possibly have happened is that the INS was deliberately set wrongly during the stop over in Alaska. Put that is only hypothesis basing it on as much evidence as the 007 survivors site.

Oh and was/is communism intrisically bad? No, just a bunch of opportunistic bastards corrupted it for their own ends. In a word, politics....

[TteFAboB]

Oh and was/is communism intrisically bad?

Matter over mind?

If so, yes, it's bad. :-j

[Kapitan]

russia is not all bad every country has fault

and to all those people that belive america is well god i say this take a look back in history and then see who was worse

the true meaning of communism is the equality of all not how russia and china or any other country realy portray it a communist state is just well a cover

in communisms equality no one is rich no one is poor but there is that divider in china and russia and all over the world true communism does not exist

[bradclark1]

Oh and was/is communism intrisically bad? No, just a bunch of opportunistic bastards corrupted it for their own ends. In a word, politics....


Communism didn't last the first day of the revolution victory. Stalin executed those that wanted true communism.

[Kapitan]

stalin was not in power during the bolshivik revolusion it was lennin stalin came to power in the 1920's (1924 i belive)

[Happy Times]

This attitude is called PANSLAVISM :know: Comes up most of the time if you talk to russians. IMO Americans are more cabable of self criticism. It doesnt excist in Russia. Nothing wrong with them ever :doh:

[Kapitan]

your badly wrong there i have infact heard russian in many places critisize thier country polatics ect so yeah they do find fault but try as a forigner to slate thier country you might find the reception heart warming

[bradclark1]

stalin was not in power during the bolshivik revolusion it was lennin stalin came to power in the 1920's (1924 i belive)
I didn't say he was in power during the revolution. What I said was communism didn't last the first day of the revolution victory. That means Lennin threw communism out the window on day one of victory.
What I said was Stalin executed those that wanted true communism. That meant that when he came to power he started executing those who wanted true communism. The USSR was ruled by Stalinism but he/they called it communism. Poor old Trotsky just got screwed.

[Pioneer]

Interesting voting staistics if you care to look.

[Kapitan]

yeah the people vote then who ever wants to leave an opinion does so :D

at night and from behind a 747 can be mistaken from a millatery plane spyplane AWACS refuler what ever does happen

during bosnia a plane strayed into the no fly zone american pilots thought it was a tanker turned out to be a UAE plane on its way to bahrain :doh:

[Abraham]

OK First I think the poll questions were badly written.
Second I have read a lot on this incident and I don't think KAL 007 was on a covert spying mission for the US.
From all the evidence I have read the INS system was not set correctly and thus the autopilot was off course. The pilots were unaware of this and thought the aircraft was on the correct course.
Also MiG 23s were sent up but couldn't find it.
The Su-15 did fire warning shots but were unanswered. Also the tail light that illuminates the tail and the insignia was not working.
Also there were RC-135 recon flights in the area, big 4 engine planes too based on the 707....at night with few lights you could get mixed up.

So the Russians probably believed it was a spy flight and shot it down after it did not respond. Also it is clearly marked on all flight maps that that area is restricted airspace and violators will be shot down.I've read some articles, a book and seen the documantary aboutg it. Furthermore I still remember the event...
I voted no, of course. No excuse for shooting down civilian aircraft. I might have been in that plane...

I basically agree with the content of this posting of XabbaRus.
When you're flying off course because your nav. equipment has the wrong setting you don't realise it so you don't sent Mayday's,
Furthermore, how can you spy from a commercial 707 like KAL007 used, that is flying international routes and will get maintenance all over the world?

Anybody here (including Kaiptain) think you can just glue a secret antenna to a civilian plane, or put some camera's in the hold and no mecanic in Paris, New York, Sao Paolo or Tokyo will notice and report to the local Aviation Authorities or the press?
Then ask the flight crew to fly off course through restricted Soviet airspace and run the likely chance to get shot down with all passengers?
Finally keep all this secret from the management of a commercial airline, the press and everybody?
Go figure!

The only possibility of "spying" is that the plane has voluntarily or involuntarily been used as a "passive probe" and that the deviation off course was intentionally - known to the pilots or (more probably) unknown but 'arranged' by US intelligence operators in Alaska - to test the Soviet reaction. Testing air defense happened a lot during the Cold War.
But for this theory there is no conclusive evidence (yet), so it remains a theory...

Also, the (one!) RC 135 was flying a few hundred miles away and was probably copying events. I guess the US got the real intel bonanza; elint-copy a live USSR fighter interception attempt!

[The Avon Lady]

Then, a fighter pilot who's flying a night interception and can not distinghish the shape of a 747 from an RC 135 - or any other plane for that matter - should be sent back to initial pilot training.
Maybe this was the training! :o

[Abraham]

Then, a fighter pilot who's flying a night interception and can not distinghish the shape of a 747 from an RC 135 - or any other plane for that matter - should be sent back to initial pilot training.
Maybe this was the training! :o
Funny but sorry to you, Avon Lady... it was a Boeing 707 and I edited my posting...
:-?

[XabbaRus]

Avon lady has a point, and it did cross my mind esp, as the SU-15 AFAIK had a searchlight...

Abraham has touched on something though.

Maybe the INS was tampered with so KAL007 would fly into soviet restricted airspace and that RC-135 would monitor it all...

Again no proof but could happen, couldn't it?

[The Avon Lady]

Gee. I thought I was kidding. :doh:

I have some ideas about. But they probably will insult many of you.
I don't really know, who shot down that Boeing. I don't know if it was even shoot down. I don't know if there was only one aircraft.
For me, this is only a brilliant examle of propaganda campaign. Conducted by US. Incredible and unseen before. Soviets were once again declared cold-blooded killers. And this time, US propagandists gained a great victory.

In July 1988 Iranian Airbus was shoot down by USS Vincennes in neutral waters over the Gulf. 290 crew and passengers dead, including 66 children. Official vercion - radar operators confused 747 for enemy F-14. 9 years after, US paid totally $61.8 million in compensation. And then, the incident was forgotten. Commander of USS Vincennes was awarded for this campaign.
Nobody talks about it now - as if it was a simple flycatching.
It was forgotten. Because it was done by US.

[The Avon Lady]

It was forgotten. Because it was done by US.
No. Because the US admitted it was a blunder and they were mistaken.

See the difference? :hmm:

No. Because the US admitted it was a blunder and they were mistaken.
See the difference? :hmm:
Yes. Of course. Just a simple mistake. 290 lives - peace of cake. Nobody called cruiser crew or fleet commanders "killers", nobody discuss if it was a military crime. It's just a mistake. Americans can do such little mistakes. You can't make an omelet (democracy) without breaking eggs (killing people). Of course. :down:

[Abraham]

No. Because the US admitted it was a blunder and they were mistaken.
See the difference? :hmm:
Yes. Of course. Just a simple mistake. 290 lives - peace of cake. Nobody called cruiser crew or fleet commanders "killers", nobody discuss if it was a military crime. It's just a mistake. Americans can do such little mistakes.Actually it was a big mistake, a complicated one. The cruiser sailed in an area of high hostile threat and a series of mistakes were made. America took its responsability, acknowledged guilt and payed a huge sum of damages. Quite a difference with the Soviet behaviour after shooting down KAL007.I don't really know, who shot down that Boeing. I don't know if it was even shoot down. I don't know if there was only one aircraft.Well, there was this South Korean plane, flight KAL007, on its way from Paris to Seoul, taking off from Anchorage (Alaska), the crew made the usual position reports to Tokyo till it was over Sakhalin. There the crew suddenly reported loss of cabin presure. Nothing more was heard, but a radio interchange between Russian fighters and the ground controller: "The target is destroyed." The plane did not land in Seoul.
Go figure what happened to the plane.
You can't make an omelet (democracy) without breaking eggs (killing people). Of course. :down:This quote is usually attributed to Stalin joking about communism. Is "communism" now replaced by "democracy" in Russia?
;)

Actually it was a big mistake, a complicated one. The cruiser sailed in an area of high hostile threat and a series of mistakes were made. America took its responsability, acknowledged guilt and payed a huge sum of damages. Quite a difference with the Soviet behaviour after shooting down KAL007.
Yes, here I'm agree. Soviets made a fatal fault - they keeped silence. They lost psychological war because of it.
But let's think another way. Maybe, Soviets never shoot down Boeing? At least civilian Boeing? :hmm: And therefore, Soviets just didn't admit the thing they never did?

Well, there was this South Korean plane, flight KAL007, on its way from Paris to Seoul, taking off from Anchorage (Alaska), the crew made the usual position reports to Tokyo till it was over Sakhalin. There the crew suddenly reported loss of cabin presure. Nothing more was heard, but a radio interchange between Russian fighters and the ground controller: "The target is destroyed." The plane did not land in Seoul.
Go figure what happened to the plane.
Oh, sir, if it really was that simple... Try to think. Try to analyze the situation. Not the official US news reports, but the whole situation that time and that place. A short thinking will be resulted in more than one version. Even this your brief description isn't unambiguous.

This quote is usually attributed to Stalin joking about communism. Is "communism" now replaced by "democracy" in Russia? ;)
I meaned American-style democracy.

[The Avon Lady]

Actually it was a big mistake, a complicated one. The cruiser sailed in an area of high hostile threat and a series of mistakes were made. America took its responsability, acknowledged guilt and payed a huge sum of damages. Quite a difference with the Soviet behaviour after shooting down KAL007.
Yes, here I'm agree. Soviets made a fatal fault - they keeped silence. They lost psychological war because of it.
But let's think another way. Maybe, Soviets never shoot down Boeing? At least civilian Boeing? :hmm: And therefore, Soviets just didn't admit the thing they never did?
Maybe! Maybe! Maybe!

It's just baseless but don't let the facts get in your way. Already discussed in prior posts.
Well, there was this South Korean plane, flight KAL007, on its way from Paris to Seoul, taking off from Anchorage (Alaska), the crew made the usual position reports to Tokyo till it was over Sakhalin. There the crew suddenly reported loss of cabin presure. Nothing more was heard, but a radio interchange between Russian fighters and the ground controller: "The target is destroyed." The plane did not land in Seoul.
Go figure what happened to the plane.
Oh, sir, if it really was that simple... Try to think. Try to analyze the situation. Not the official US news reports, but the whole situation that time and that place. A short thinking will be resulted in more than one version. Even this your brief description isn't unambiguous.
Speaking of ambiguity.................................. :doh: :88)
This quote is usually attributed to Stalin joking about communism. Is "communism" now replaced by "democracy" in Russia? ;)
I meaned American-style democracy.
And why do you think that's so? What do you base this on? :-?

Something is defintely "scrambled" here. :hmm:

[Kapitan]

put it this way russia was well with in its rights to shoot down that plane it was in russian airspace had no need to be there and it conducted what was thought to be evasive monovers and thus is very suspisious.

And why do you think that's so? What do you base this on? :-?
Because American style is to bring democracy with a force to those, who don't want that democracy to be brought this way :yep:

[Abraham]

And why do you think that's so? What do you base this on? :-?
Because American style is to bring democracy with a force to those, who don't want that democracy to be brought this way :yep:
Any examples?
You mean the Bosnian Muslims, the Afghan Muslims and the Iraqi Muslims probably...
;)

[TteFAboB]

Why do Russians feel so attached to their state and especially their authorities, why do they feel personal responsability for things that are COMPLETELY out of their grip? I see this effect everywhere, definitely inherited from Soviet times, indeed the Communism ideology is perfect, it plagues the human being like a virus, it's a pitty we have the vaccine readily available, but some decide not to take it.

You mean the Bosnian Muslims, the Afghan Muslims and the Iraqi Muslims probably... ;)
I mean Philippines, China, Honduras, Haiti, Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Panama, Cuba, Japan, Hawaii, Russia, Costa-Rica, Guatemala, Salvador, Peru, Albania, Lebanon, Chile... Should I continue?

Why do Russians feel so attached to their state and especially their authorities
I don't know, really :lol: Maybe those things somehow help the nation to survive? ;)

why do they feel personal responsability for things that are COMPLETELY out of their grip?
USA, of course, know better than anyone, what to do :lol:

I see this effect everywhere, definitely inherited from Soviet times
Well, take earlier - there was a Russian Empire once. Not that Empire of Evil, but the Empire of Tsar :D

indeed the Communism ideology is perfect, it plagues the human being like a virus, it's a pitty we have the vaccine readily available, but some decide not to take it.
Who speaks about communism here? Communist elections is in a nearby topic :cool: Or maybe we should create a new one, about plagues and ideologies? ;)

[XabbaRus]

Why do Russians feel so attached to their state and especially their authorities, why do they feel personal responsability for things that are COMPLETELY out of their grip? I see this effect everywhere, definitely inherited from Soviet times, indeed the Communism ideology is perfect, it plagues the human being like a virus, it's a pitty we have the vaccine readily available, but some decide not to take it.

Then I suggest you go and get some good history books on Russia and the Soviet Union and also go live their for a few years.

[Abraham]

You mean the Bosnian Muslims, the Afghan Muslims and the Iraqi Muslims probably... I mean Philippines, China, Honduras, Haiti, Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Panama, Cuba, Japan, Hawaii, Russia, Costa-Rica, Guatemala, Salvador, Peru, Albania, Lebanon, Chile... Should I continue?
Ah, I see.
Apart from Japan, that started an agressive war on Dec 7th, 1941 (maybe, but maybe there was no war at all) you mean the countries where the US tried to stop communist insurgencies.
Many of those countries are democratic now and much betteroff then would the good old USSR have succeeded. Compare Cuba, what a Paradise on Earth that is! If it wouldn't be inhumane for the population we should keep it as an historic exemple of what communism does to a basically prosporous country.

Ah, I see. Apart from Japan, that started an agressive war on Dec 7th, 1941 (maybe, but maybe there was no war at all) you mean the countries where the US tried to stop communist insurgencies.
Communist insurgency? In Japan in 1863? In Nicaragua in 1857? Etc? Just read about wars, conflicts and operations that USA commenced since the country's foundation.

Many of those countries are democratic now
Nuked Japan? Yeah, they made the proper choice after Enola Gay ant The Great Artiste...
Napalmed and AgentOranged Vietnam? Those, who survived, made their choice. Not everyone, though.
Citizens of Hamburg, Leipzig and Koeln also became true democrats.
Even Indians, you know, also became democrats (or maybe respublicans?)

Compare Cuba, what a Paradise on Earth that is! If it wouldn't be inhumane for the population we should keep it as an historic exemple of what communism does to a basically prosporous country.
First, to set a blockade - to Cuba or to Iraq. Not to allow food and medicines there. Then, seeing children there die because of USSs blocking trade lanes, to say: "What a bad and inhumane dictator rules this country!" It's a very wise and democratic, of course. And how humane! Then, of course, arrive US Captains Freedoms, napalm those who managed to survive, imprison those who don't cry "Freedom" loud enough...
Democracy is triumphant! :yep:

[Happy Times]

The talk about the new Empire has begun again :know: The Ruskies are coming. :o Everybody hide :88)

[Konovalov]

In my best Scottish accent, "Comrades, today we sail into history!" :-j

[TteFAboB]

I prefer the enlightening dissent than the comforting consent.

Still, nobody answered my question, do Russians fear raising their voice against the State or do they find that unnecessary to help the nation to survive? Everything got covered up and only a handfull of Russians actually do the favour of digging things up and sharing their findings with the rest of the world.

My question is, what would happen to the officers or the pilot if the flight was in fact a spy plane and they let it slip unharmed, mistaking it for a civilian plane?

Gulag?

[Happy Times]

I prefer the enlightening dissent than the comforting consent.

Still, nobody answered my question, do Russians fear raising their voice against the State or do they find that unnecessary to help the nation to survive? Everything got covered up and only a handfull of Russians actually do the favour of digging things up and sharing their findings with the rest of the world.

My question is, what would happen to the officers or the pilot if the flight was in fact a spy plane and they let it slip unharmed, mistaking it for a civilian plane?

Gulag? It doesnt matter who leads Russia or by what system. Certain things never change. ;) Zars Ohrana agents continued in the NKVD/KGB , and they remain in the new FSB. One is the President. :doh: They are masters of disinformation in the world. They see/believe that conspiracies are everywhere (they think its the same in other countries also) ,but also make them up to their own needs. Most of the nation share these believes in this stuff. But when you say that it might be possible that the KE007 passengers might have been alive its just a western propaganda. :lol: BTW, anyone believe Putin had something to do with those buildings blowing up in Moscow? :hmm:

[sonar732]

You mean the Bosnian Muslims, the Afghan Muslims and the Iraqi Muslims probably... ;)
I mean Philippines, China, Honduras, Haiti, Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Panama, Cuba, Japan, Hawaii, Russia, Costa-Rica, Guatemala, Salvador, Peru, Albania, Lebanon, Chile... Should I continue?

Philippines-annexed after the Spanish/American war
China- ever heard of the 'Boxer Revolution'...more than just USA
Korea-a 'United Nations' force protected South Korea

Will Russia ever forget that we were on their Eastern soil?

[Abraham]

In my best Scottish accent, "Comrades, today we sail into history!" :-j
Abraham - in his best Russian accent - sets in: "Sayushni Rossimi Respublicz ..."
:D

Phew. I'm tired trying to demostrate you anything...
If you want to continue using propaganda stereotypes from a cold war - let you do. If you want to think that USA is impeccable and Very Democratic country - let you think so. Of course, you never were in villages destroyed by air raids, you never seen civilian burned to bones by WP, you never seen children , mutilated by after-effects of Agent Orange. So, let you seat in your comfortable chair and discuss the cruel evil russians. Let you do so.
But after that, don't wonder at the fact that half a world hates USA.
I'm not the man to make you think another way. At least now.

Abraham - in his best Russian accent - sets in: "Sayushni Rossimi Respublicz ..." :D
Sayuz nerushimyi respublik svabodnykh ;) If you meaned that ;)

[Abraham]

Phew. I'm tired trying to demostrate you anything...
If you want to continue using propaganda stereotypes from a cold war - let you do. If you want to think that USA is impeccable and Very Democratic country - let you think so. Of course, you never were in villages destroyed by air raids, you never seen civilian burned to bones by WP, you never seen children , mutilated by after-effects of Agent Orange. So, let you seat in your comfortable chair and discuss the cruel evil russians. Let you do so.
But after that, don't wonder at the fact that half a world hates USA.
I'm not the man to make you think another way. At least now.There was a Cold War going on, with lots of little hot wars of proxy. The cause was basically an agressive communist policy that aimed for world destination - times never really change, hu. Those little wars were often bloody and both parties have blood on their hands. The final outcome however is that in many parts of the world democracy is saven or has returned. Just waiting for Cuba and North-Korea. Matter of time, I guess...

Abraham - in his best Russian accent - sets in: "Sayushni Rossimi Respublicz ..." :D
Sayuz nerushimyi respublik svabodnykh ;) If you meaned that ;)Yep, my Russian was never any good...
:D

Just waiting for Cuba and North-Korea. Matter of time, I guess...
And what about China? It still be acommunist country. How soon are you going to democratize them? :D

[August]

Just waiting for Cuba and North-Korea. Matter of time, I guess...
And what about China? It still be acommunist country. How soon are you going to democratize them? :D

A few posts back you used the Chinese as an example of America forcing democracy upon the inhabitants of the middle kingdom. So what happened? It didn't take?

BTW Abraham isn't an American so unless you consider the Dutch as an integral part of this evil movement to force democracy down the throats of the innocent peace loving tolitarian regimes around the world you might want to make the distinction.

[bradclark1]

And what about China? It still be acommunist country. How soon are you going to democratize them? :D

When todays youth in China become adults they will probably democratize themselves. China is eating off the capitalistic plate and going back for seconds.
Also, name two democratic countries that ever fought each other.

[joea]

I have some ideas about. But they probably will insult many of you.
I don't really know, who shot down that Boeing. I don't know if it was even shoot down. I don't know if there was only one aircraft.
For me, this is only a brilliant examle of propaganda campaign. Conducted by US. Incredible and unseen before. Soviets were once again declared cold-blooded killers. And this time, US propagandists gained a great victory.

In July 1988 Iranian Airbus was shoot down by USS Vincennes in neutral waters over the Gulf. 290 crew and passengers dead, including 66 children. Official vercion - radar operators confused 747 for enemy F-14. 9 years after, US paid totally $61.8 million in compensation. And then, the incident was forgotten. Commander of USS Vincennes was awarded for this campaign.
Nobody talks about it now - as if it was a simple flycatching.
It was forgotten. Because it was done by US.

Both were stupid accidents IMO by two militaristic superpowers. :arrgh!: I'm Canadian so I hate both Russia and the USA. Kidding.

Honestly what kind of stupid statement is that? What happened to KAL 007 then? My boss' brother in law knew someone on the plane, were all the passengers and the families CIA agents?

Reading your other posts, well I agree spreading democracy by war is a dumb idea. Sounds like Trotsky eh tovarish? :rotfl:

Some of your other posts were strange, is the USA the only country to kill children? You mentioned WWII bombings, yes Japan was area bombed, Germany was area bombed by the British though, the USA "tried" precision bombing. I suppose the Red Army were careful not to hit civilians with artillery, katyushas or Pe-2 in Konigsberg or Berlin? German women had special lessons in how to become proletarians though, give it for free. US soldiers I guess always had money to pay. :stare:

Lots of countries got the benefit of Soviet help, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Hungary. Sorry cheap shot comrade.

BTW, I don't think Russia is a threat, or Islam...you guys got enough in your backyard, skinheads in Voronezh killed 22 people some Africans and even a Spanish guy among.



http://www.compromat.ru/main/rogozin/musor1.htm

Clean up Moscow.

Also, name two democratic countries that ever fought each other.
It depends on what to call "democracy". If we use the defenition of "democracy" used by USA - then, United States can't fight themself :lol: All other countries are potential targets. Including those, who usually are called democratic, but don't support american politics. Remember what happened shortly after beginning of war in Iraq?

Some of your other posts were strange, is the USA the only country to kill children? You mentioned WWII bombings, yes Japan was area bombed, Germany was area bombed by the British though, the USA "tried" precision bombing. I suppose the Red Army were careful not to hit civilians with artillery, katyushas or Pe-2 in Konigsberg or Berlin? German women had special lessons in how to become proletarians though, give it for free. US soldiers I guess always had money to pay. Lots of countries got the benefit of Soviet help, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Hungary. Sorry cheap shot comrade. BTW, I don't think Russia is a threat, or Islam...you guys got enough in your backyard, skinheads in Voronezh killed 22 people some Africans and even a Spanish guy among.
Of course. I never can deny this. Russia has many dark pages in history. But the idea of my posts is not "Americans are the worst" or "Russians are better".
The idea is "Americans are not better than others, but they think they're the best". US provides the policy "Everybody are equal, but there are some more equal then others". I wouldn't say if this is "bad" or not. I just want to say that this policy is unlike the ideals declared by USA. This is called "we say one thing, but do another". This is Soviet policy, Gentlemen! Used by US.

Let's just look in history.
There was USSR. Elders in Kremlin supposed that they are the only ones, who always know The True Communism Way. They took "copyright" for Communism. Any goverment could be call "Communistic" (or "Socialistic") only after aprroval from Kremlin. Any deviation from the "General Course of The Party" was punished. Remember Hungary, Poland. Some countries were forced to became Communist (Socialist) (Eastern Europe). Countries which broke away from USSR were declared "Dictatorship" (Tito's Yugoslavia, Albania).
And what can we see now?
There is USA. The White House supposes it is the only one, who always know Thr True Democratic Way. It took "copyright" for Democracy. Any goverment can be called "Democratic" only after approval from the WH. Any deviation from the policy predicted by Washington called "non-democratic" or "turning back" or "dangerous to mankind". Even the names of such countries become "bad" (French Fries->Freedom Fries). Some countries are forced to accept the ways of Democracy. Countries which openly reject american ways and lifestyle being declared "Bloody Dictatorship".
And where is the difference?

[bradclark1]

What I think is that you are paranoid about the U.S.

[kelawi]

Going back to the original point of the thread... let me play Devil's Advocate...

Put yourself in the position of the Kremlim. You've been fighting a series of proxy wars for a couple decades. Your primary adversary is the USA. You have made clear to everyone that airspace violations can and likely will result in a shoot down. One dark night a plane flying from the USA violates your airspace near a very sensitive and secret defense installation. You believe that the plane has just gathered some piece of intelligence and is heading for international airspace again. This intelligence may give your adversary an advantage in the ongoing "cold war".

You have only about 30 seconds to make a decision because it needs to be done before the plane leaves your airspace. What would you do?

Gen. Anatoly Kornukov upon orders from the Kremlin ordered the shoot down. As I see it, he had two options:

#1 Let the plane go placing not only himself and his family at risk, but potentially weakening his whole nation IF it was a spy plane.

#2 Shoot the plane down. Possibly killing several hundred innocents but possibly protecting millions of Russians IF it is spy plane.

I can't say I agree with the decision that was made, but I sure do understand it.

[Kapitan]

bingo hit nail on head

[joea]

Why the hell can't they apologise for the mistake instead of pointing fingers at the CIA?? Who the hell cares about the families killed? (Or the families killed on the Iranian airliner?) I mean the Lockerbie families were compensated, granted this was a deliberate act but still doesn't help.

Negr: I am no fan of Bush and the current USA foreign policy and the attitude "our way or the highway" in fact I am glad to see you got the point of the comparision with the USSR...except of course some of the US enemies really are dangerous (North Korea) others are just comic and not a threat imo (Venezuela).

But we went off topic, there still is a tendency (I know many Russians, ex-Soviets and ex-Yugoslavs, took one year of Russian as well) to never admit mistakes (like many neo-conservatives in the USA). The USSR was well within its rights to declare no-fly zones over its territory, but they should have come clean and said we made a mistake and offered compensation (did they in fact?). Instead you went off on a tirade and never answered what happened to the KAL 007? Did it exist? So what happened to those people? Like the friend of my boss' brother in law?? Just curious as to what happened to the Boeing 747 regardless of if there was a spy plane or not.

What I think is that you are paranoid about the U.S.
Well, I can say the same: some people in this topic are paranoin about commies, USSR and Russia :D And, you see, some latest political moves force some people to... err... worry about the USA ;)

Negr: I am no fan of Bush and the current USA foreign policy and the attitude "our way or the highway" in fact I am glad to see you got the point of the comparision with the USSR...except of course some of the US enemies really are dangerous (North Korea) others are just comic and not a threat imo (Venezuela).
I don't think NK is SO dangerous. Yes, they possess a Nuke. If it's not a bluff, one or two warheads are not a serious threat. Russia, which borders upon NK, must worry rather tha USA ;) Koreans, afaik, haven't missiles or any other delivery means to reach USA. However, who knows...
What about Venezuela - yeah, Chavez sometimes can be really funny, so firehearted as early revolutioneers :lol: Though, he provides the idea of many LatAm citizens. The last Americas' summit dispalayed it: not all, but more and more SouthAmericans feel ill-willed with U.S.

But we went off topic, there still is a tendency (I know many Russians, ex-Soviets and ex-Yugoslavs, took one year of Russian as well) to never admit mistakes (like many neo-conservatives in the USA). The USSR was well within its rights to declare no-fly zones over its territory, but they should have come clean and said we made a mistake and offered compensation (did they in fact?). Instead you went off on a tirade and never answered what happened to the KAL 007? Did it exist? So what happened to those people? Like the friend of my boss' brother in law?? Just curious as to what happened to the Boeing 747 regardless of if there was a spy plane or not.
Yes, it's true, that many Russians still have that "Imperial" behavior - though Empire is no more. And, evidently, many our present rulers have the same.
But why do you think "they can't apologize"? Boris Yeltsin officialy apologized before South Korea in 1991 or 1992. The same time, ICAO conducted reinvestigation. You can find official ICAO's conclusion somewhere in the Net.
Anyway, "The Truth" classified Top Secret in both countries - USA and USSR/Russia.
Will any side declassify it once - that's the question.

[AG124]

What about the Libyan airliner (Flight 114) that was shot down by Israel in 1973? In this case, they definetely knew it was a civilian plane they were shooting at. :o

http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/massacres/9.htm

http://www.qadhafi.org/Libya/LIBYAN_AIRLINES_FLIGHT_114.html

These sites appear to be very subjective, but I can't find much else (I am not going to take a side in this argument, as I don't have a completely objective account of what happened). Some sites only briefly mentionned the incident, others have set out to condemn Israel anyway, but all criticize the country for the incident. It seems pretty black and white from what I've read.

The United States refused any criticism of Israel, unlike in the case with the USSR, despite the fact that the destruction of the civilian plane was intentional.

I'm just wondering what people's thoughts are on this incident, especially in comparison to the two incidents that have just been discussed.

PS - If anyone can find a more objective site on the incident, please post it ASAP. Thanks.

PS - If anyone can find a more objective site on the incident, please post it ASAP. Thanks.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19730221-1
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8744/tragedy.htm
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/091983/830919003.html

[TteFAboB]

others are just comic and not a threat imo (Venezuela).

Indeed, now we know the American Invasion plan Hugo Chavez likes to talk about so much was a friendly training operation with the Spanish Air Force back in 2001.http://images.indymedia.org/imc/canarias/pdf/Operacion_Balboa.pdf

He's not a threat to the US, but sadly he's a threat to his neighbors.

http://www.midiasemmascara.org/images/articles/Charge_Fidel___Chavez.jpg

[sergbuto]

The United States refused any criticism of Israel, unlike in the case with the USSR, despite the fact that the destruction of the civilian plane was intentional.

That is called double-moral standards. Everything is fine in Saudi Arabia and pretty bad in Iran.

[XabbaRus]

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/091983/830919003.html

[AG124]

What about the USS Liberty that was attacked in 1967? Still seems to be a lot orf controversy surrounding this attack.

This is a timetable of events.

http://home.att.net/~texmextex/USS_Liberty/Start_page.htm

These sites all blame Israel.

http://www.ussliberty.com/

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/moorer-liberty.htm

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

http://www.rense.com/general26/ally.htm

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/023.html

http://hometown.aol.com/generalissimomh/

http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm

Thess are Isreali sites exonerating Israel.

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/usslibertyisrael10034.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html

This is a site with a list of articles which take Israel's side. I found a US site too, but lost it.

http://pnews.org/art/ussliberty.shtml

This site presents both sides of the argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

I really am not sure which side to believe. A lot of people seem to blame Israel though. :-?

[XabbaRus]

And what about China? It still be acommunist country. How soon are you going to democratize them? :D

When todays youth in China become adults they will probably democratize themselves. China is eating off the capitalistic plate and going back for seconds.
Also, name two democratic countries that ever fought each other.

Iceland and the UK.

[bradclark1]

Iceland and the UK.

When? You talking WWII?

[The Avon Lady]

A lot of people seem to blame Israel though. :-?
We needed the American sailor's blood to bake matzahs.

[caspofungin]

iceland and uk -- "cod war"

not much of a war, though.

[Kapitan]

india and pakistan both were and are democratic indopak war 1971

[Happy Times]

india and pakistan both were and are democratic indopak war 1971 Well Pakistan today has a dictator. And i wouldn call either one best exsamples of parlamentarism. :roll:

[retired1212]

india and pakistan both were and are democratic indopak war 1971 Well Pakistan today has a dictator. And i wouldn call either one best exsamples of parlamentarism. :roll:

Trust me, he is much better than the previous politicans and the presidents. The people around him, aka his spoons, were in the previous governments.

[Happy Times]

india and pakistan both were and are democratic indopak war 1971 Well Pakistan today has a dictator. And i wouldn call either one best exsamples of parlamentarism. :roll:

Trust me, he is much better than the previous politicans and the presidents. The people around him, aka his spoons, were in the previous governments. Sure he is, from our point of wiew, only way to control a majority mob that are Islamists. ;)

[Mr Quatro]

History repeats itself every eight years and eight months?

I don't think so, but this old poll is a reminder ...

Look at the first question: yes it violated sovrign airspace and ignored warnings blatently a covert op

[Oberon]

As necromancy goes, that's pretty epic.

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss331/bigreespics/zombie1.jpg

[Herr-Berbunch]

Eight years and eight months? Try 31 years since the actual shooting.

As for the rest I think it's been put to bed in 2005 but for the record, if I was a covert op pilot pretending to be a civvy airliner I wouldn't just ignore anything and everything, I'd play it like I was really lost.

[Cybermat47]

But I bet it'll end soon... :roll:

It's still going 9 years after Subnuts posted this :o

[Jimbuna]

Strike 1

[Tango589]

This ain't gonna end pretty.

But I bet it'll end soon... :roll:
If only you could see into the future...:o